51. The Return of Religion

Comment #212659 by Auraboy on July 17, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Anglican Olympics! Yes! Sex up that conference...well not with women obviously, that would be grotesque, vaginas in frocks is rather sickening, better to have lots of men in silly hats. It's really like Gladiators. We can have Archbishop Rowan 'THE DRUID' Williams using his welsh crook to battle his way through a horde of angry, strident, jesus-loves-straight-men-only clergy (in matching purple gowns), through the 'Schism pool'.

I believe he's well placed for a Gold medal in fence sitting.

52. The Return of Religion

Comment #212452 by Auraboy on July 17, 2008 at 8:29 am

Thanks for that link irate_atheist - I had to love this section, "He made the remarks in Battle of the Bishops, a BBC2 documentary to be aired on Monday evening, which follows key churchmen from the US and Africa as they prepare for Gafcon.

In the programme the archbishop of Nigeria, Peter Akinola, known in his home country as the Hammer of God, is seen hitting out at figures such as Chane."

Now seriously I want a real battle of the bishops game show, where Peter 'The Hammer' takes out his latent homosexual angst on pinko liberal american god-botherers in a ring of combat. Like gladiators in silly frocks. Now if that doesn't bring the faithful flooding in I don't know what will. Lambeth conference? Pah. Lambeth Smackdown! God bringeth the rumble.

This is increasingly like those Terry Pratchett Church of Om schisms - The schism of nine minutes past eleven on July 18th which further divided the schism of four minutes earlier...

53. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211155 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 2:31 pm

Corylus - "There is only one way to deal with bullies. You stick your face in theirs and say "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough". Then you laugh at them."

I agree with that. It's the point of satire. Rational debate may be the ideal but there is no rationality shown here. You have to make fun of them. It won't win logical debate points but the religious side is not playing by logical debate rules anyway.

54. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211151 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 2:25 pm

If you can't publicly satirise a belief you can't do anything. I really don't see the difference between this and say Michael Moore showing up at the Republican convention and pointing out the inaccuracies in certain literature handed out. Respect works both ways, when one side has threatened a student and then a professor because they made a protest, through ridicule, that side loses any moral high ground at all.

55. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211128 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 2:12 pm

I'd argue that ridicule and satire is the essential first ingredient in positions that are already entrenched. Rational argument has effectively been outlawed by one side already. Changing positions may require deep and thoughtful argument but the problem is the atmosphere of outrage should someone question this is already here. It's not entrenchment fostered by ridicule, it's already in place. I'd humbly suggest that satire helps at least some people laugh at the situation, maybe even some Catholics who can see how disturbing the over-reaction is with death threats.

56. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211113 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 2:02 pm

It's scientific. If PZ Myers is struck by lightning we know he was wrong. Dead wrong.

57. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211107 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 1:57 pm

Of course I don't believe PZ Myers would have been so adamant in this display if it weren't for the well organised hate campaign against first the student and now himself. Sometimes mutual respect breaks down and making a stand is all you have left in the argument.

58. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211102 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Well some people are deeply offended by the burning of their national flag. I don't generally go out of my way to burn flags to be honest I have better things to do but it doesn't offend me unless they burn people. I really have been handed both free bibles and Korans and it should be perfectly within my right to do what the fuck I want with them. Personally I don't deface books and in these past cases I chose to hand them back with an explanation that I'd actually already read these texts and didn't believe them or want them. However, if I wanted to I could walk away and burn the books to make a point.

59. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211073 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 1:34 pm

I did agree that the slight subterfuge required to get hold of the cracker could and possibly should be considered the only slightly worrying point - however as this whole scenario was brought up with a student making a protest against funding of a Catholic institution, I guess it's tough. The wafers are readily handed out. It's like someone handing me a free copy of the Koran in the street, I'm free to put it in the nearest bin if I want, it's been given to me. If I broke into a Mosque to steal a copy of the Koran, then, yeah, I see the point but I don't think this applies here.

60. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211062 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 1:23 pm

It's an interesting point to be sure. I suppose it may not further the argument to have the cartoons of Mohammed, but in a society that allows freedom to insult (if not threaten) then I guess PZ should be able to get hold of a cracker and dismiss it's holiness in the same way I should be able to get hold of a satirical picture of Mohammed or Jesus and display it on the internet. I guess I see it coming down to a pretty basic matter of principle. Of course I would be happy to admit my point isn't deeply thought through yet.

61. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211047 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 1:03 pm

Crazy catholics displaying anti-islamic and anti-semitic sentiments? Say it isn't so! Ha. It probably does bear repeating what PZ has noticed, the general religious outrage is then re-directed at another 'faith', 'how dare you descrate our crackers, now go piss on the Koran!'...It's wonderful to see the rainbow of faith shoot itself in the head.

62. Taking a Cue From Ants on Evolution of Humans

Comment #210860 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 6:55 am

Thanks Jestyr,

Yes I probably shouldn't be so harsh a judge when it comes to a novel rather than a scientific work but it still worries me a little that someone so up front about a divisive scientific 'fight' seems happy to blur his fiction and work. Of course everyone should be entitled to a life of imagination as well as scientific theory - hey, it's just smacks a little of a willingness to court controversy for sales and self-aggrandizement than actual facts.

But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe not the article writer though. If I hear ants described as aliens one more time I may have to go on a kill rampage.

Maybe I should take my pills now? Ha.

63. Taking a Cue From Ants on Evolution of Humans

Comment #210741 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 3:23 am

'This is great, Ed, but we need more emotion, ambivalence.'...

I'm fine with scientific writing harnessing the poetry of human emotion, after all, life is a beautiful subject to wax lyrical on...but it sounds a note of unease when a scientist can 'add' ambivalence at the request of a publisher. Yes, I truly believe this but, well, it's so complicated that I can't quite believe it! Isn't life complicated! Stop asking so many scientific questions with discoverable answers and bang on about the connection between ants and men - it doesn't matter if group selection makes scientific sense, there's a sort of wonder to it, so it's fine!

No, sorry, I love poetry, I love emotion, I love the vagaries of literary complexity but emoting a scientific principle without evidence and just because it 'feels' better to us is just as bad as the sky-faery crowd.

64. PLEASE WRITE IN SUPPORT OF PZ MYERS

Comment #208130 by Auraboy on July 10, 2008 at 3:55 pm

And an email sent as well, with all the gilded language only a failed English graduate can muster. I felt it was best to keep solely to an expression of respect and support for P Z Myers and his work than an anti-religious tirade, though it was sorely tempting.

This sort of thing really shouldn't ever be necessary. How sad.

65. It can be right to discriminate against the religious

Comment #202856 by Auraboy on July 2, 2008 at 4:15 am

It should be pointed out that when reviewing the case of the Muslim hairdresser she was not accepted at 25 other salons following interviews and was initially not granted an interview at the final salon because she lived well outside the catchment area and would have to travel a large distance to be able to work there. The independent owner relented and was the only potential employer hit with a discrimination case, which was odd given she was a small independent owner establishment and could not afford to mount a defence initially.

Not that I think independent small business owners should be given any sort of free pass on discrimination laws or anything but you have to ponder the the possibility of malicious claims first.

66. Fire the starting gun! The Darwin year begins...NOW!

Comment #202855 by Auraboy on July 2, 2008 at 4:09 am

So the day when we can celebrate something worthwhile is the same day Barrack Obama tells americans he will expand the Bush programme of directly involving religious groups in government policy and federal programmes? That god eh? Likes his little jokes...

Maybe in another 150 years we'll be getting somewhere.

67. It can be right to discriminate against the religious

Comment #202594 by Auraboy on July 1, 2008 at 4:22 pm

This conversation really dropped since the heady heights of enforced Kangaroo ownership and the merits of Mac's Gold...

Although most conversations do.

I often work amongst warring Kiwi's and Aussies but I find a good beer helps.

68. It can be right to discriminate against the religious

Comment #202510 by Auraboy on July 1, 2008 at 2:48 pm

I think you get disqualified from NZ citizenship for mentioning Australian wildlife in the same sentence. But if you drink Mac's Gold they'll let you off.

69. Can't Darwin and God get along?

Comment #202509 by Auraboy on July 1, 2008 at 2:43 pm

General cop-out comments from this guy. It's the 'God from personal experience' argument again in not particularly elegant language. I like the 'Okay some religious experience is fraud, some is seizures but most isn't! And I can cite this scientifically because God told me...'

70. It can be right to discriminate against the religious

Comment #202490 by Auraboy on July 1, 2008 at 2:30 pm

I like the idea of progress as a genuine mixture between competition and co-operation...of course this relies on equality for the start point, equality between the access to resources and funding etc otherwise you end up biasing the result with those having better access to those handing out the funding...

I don't want to make a defence of socialism, it's a deeply flawed as any system...but of course the bonus system has also led to city brokers who've fucked the world economy. I guess some regulation is a good thing.

71. Can't Darwin and God get along?

Comment #202447 by Auraboy on July 1, 2008 at 1:55 pm

I still think Darwinism is a silly term.

So it's another book on the theme of 'How to hold two utterly opposing views by not asking too many questions.'

The 'new atheist writers' have always pretty much said doubt should be the default position until you prove otherwise...

Oh why bother...

72. It can be right to discriminate against the religious

Comment #202431 by Auraboy on July 1, 2008 at 1:30 pm

Equality of treatment doesn't mean the same thing as equality of achievement. It's a stupid argument. You can have team sports where certain teams excel while still applying rules equally. I'm not sure equality can be defined as homogeny.

Protecting belief is highly dangerous of course. Although we may be virtually guaranteed to follow the religion of our parents or culture we're still all born atheists.

73. Jesus and Mo on Militant Atheists

Comment #202021 by Auraboy on June 30, 2008 at 3:48 pm

The comments from offended Christians and Muslims threatening to rape and murder the writer of the comic strip are almost as hilarious...in an odd way...

More good stuff...

http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/05/13/stop/

74. Jesus and Mo on Militant Atheists

Comment #202018 by Auraboy on June 30, 2008 at 3:44 pm

www.jesusandmo.net/2006/05/11/skin/

one of my faves regarding creationist argument.

75. CFI-UN Hamid Karzai Letter

Comment #202010 by Auraboy on June 30, 2008 at 3:29 pm

No apologies for detail, always good to learn more.

76. CFI-UN Hamid Karzai Letter

Comment #201960 by Auraboy on June 30, 2008 at 1:23 pm

Thank you for the rather more in depth analysis Al. I am not really clear on the details of this, including the many variations on tribalism and interpretation of religion. Primarily I just find it interesting that (merely from journalistic anecdote of course) Afghanistan's major populace seems a lot less hardline and religious than that of Pakistan. I suppose the whole region is such a mess, with no one particularly wanting to wade in to any degree that to even discuss the matter as something as simple as religious intolerance is overtly simple.

77. Charles Darwin was not the father of atheism

Comment #201945 by Auraboy on June 30, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Pat Robertson was not the father of Christianity - An essay.

78. CFI-UN Hamid Karzai Letter

Comment #201943 by Auraboy on June 30, 2008 at 1:00 pm

I've noted from a number of reporters in Afghanistan the sheer avalanche of discord between the tribal leaders/installed religious hierarchy and the general populace in many areas. It seems the extreme religious elements are far more prevalent in the Pakistan border regions and the population of that country. Odd, I thought.

It's also strange that even the vast and domineering state crackdown by China on it's Muslim population, a virtual war that would rival the iron grip on Tibet, doesn't seem to have done much about the continuation of increasing islamic fundamentalism there. Although I suppose if the Communist government is willing to kill you all in the name of the state instead of Allah, it doesn't really make much difference.

Maybe we should just bomb everyone? Oops...perhaps my atheism has led me to nihilism...

79. Faith schools undermined by 'Government witch hunt'

Comment #201936 by Auraboy on June 30, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Ha, so basically the witch hunt is on when the government says 'Stop asking for money up front it's illegal...' Ah yes, that's an infringement of religious freedom, demanding money with the menace of leaving your child to a less prosperous school.

When other companies, corporations, institutions or individuals demand money up front for services not provided we generally call it theft, fraud or mugging and they're not even all tax-payer subsidized either.

'Hey, we're religious, and religious freedom means the freedom to discriminate - against people who can't afford to be here. After all, as Jesus clearly said on many occasions, 'Fuck the poor, they're not our sort.'

80. Spanish parliament to extend rights to apes

Comment #199992 by Auraboy on June 26, 2008 at 3:25 pm

I agree it's far more complicated, but since most people seem to like a simple statistical mean starting point oversimplified to the point of nonsense, I wanted to join in!
I know smart parents with moronic children and vice versa. I know average parents with one child of brilliance and one of total inanity. But they're middle income so maybe they represent the ultimate statistical average.
I suppose the higher income families have shown to have children of higher IQ's often because of diet as we know that can show improved IQ scores at an early age. But there was also a recent study I vaguely recall about taking children of low IQ from very low income families and giving them improved nutrition and intensive one on one education and seeing vast improvements in IQ scores in short periods of time.

I'd say IQ's have little to do with genuine intelligence of course.

Although I appear to have wandered from the Great Ape debate somewhat, my apologies.

81. Spanish parliament to extend rights to apes

Comment #199978 by Auraboy on June 26, 2008 at 3:13 pm

Isn't it rich people end up with smarter kids? I think access to health care, better nutrition, education etc generally shows a trend towards higher IQ from higher income environments. Although poorer families tend to have more children. Maybe rich people will be bred out. Hmm.

82. Random Acts of Evolution

Comment #187166 by Auraboy on June 1, 2008 at 11:50 am

Excellent. And how much will we be charged for the upgrade? I know Vista pretty much drives me to random acts of violence so perhaps we have certain human traits explained...

83. Random Acts of Evolution

Comment #187155 by Auraboy on June 1, 2008 at 11:40 am

I wonder if random repeat transcription was the reason we got half of the article repeating itself? Was that a clever example ploy? Repeating itself? Was that a clever example ploy?

Damn. That God sure was a Microsoft code writer...Useless junk everywhere...

84. Teacher tortures, kills boy

Comment #186844 by Auraboy on May 31, 2008 at 12:07 pm

I ponder on the differences here. The strict recital culture of the Koran in Pakistan, when the varying sects of muslims and just about every Imam interprets the text differently versus the Evangelical Christians of the west, who never seem to be able to even quote the bible accurately. I can usually outquote them on biblical sayings. It's odd. Parrot recital and hatred versus misjudged dallying and fear.

Of course the sad thing about many poor muslim countries is that it's Madrassa or death by poverty on the streets. You can imagine the occasional act of totalitarian brutality, hatethink and brainwashing sounds rather good when free food is included.

Not that I think religious indoctrination doesn't affect the wealthy too, but poverty has a root connection with extremist belief in many places. The wealthy tend to use it as one more device.

Okay, there ends my rather lefty old rant.

85. Repulsive but right

Comment #184517 by Auraboy on May 25, 2008 at 2:37 pm

I've always thought that Richard Dawkins was rather good at explaining his point of view to undecided viewers and listeners. I can see how he can become rather irate with the same basic apologist responses for religion, but I've never seen Dawkins as the frothing, angry, insulting icon that he's constantly labelled as. Hitchens is rather insulting, but he's a fairly equal opportunity insulter. But that's probably just the drink talking.

Bishop Robinson may equally be right that the Church has changed it's opinions, quite rightly, to admit it's continuous errors over the centuries but I'm not entirely sure how brave it is to stand inside a religious hierarchy you think is utterly wrong simply to make a point. Maybe it is right and brave. Or maybe he should stand up and say this church does not accept me and leave. I'm not sure about which I think is right. Of course, he may be gay and proud, but he still believes in a book that says he's an abomination. However much he thinks that we should ignore more and more of the scriptures and accept the god of vagueness.

86. How Are Humans Unique?

Comment #184500 by Auraboy on May 25, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Moral and ethical concerns have changed with the developments of societies.

87. How Are Humans Unique?

Comment #184498 by Auraboy on May 25, 2008 at 1:46 pm

My dog knows when it's been bad.It looks really sad about it. But I suspect the little bastard is just putting on a show to mollify my almighty wrath. You can't trust these animals to know right from wrong.

Much like politicians in that respect. And arch-Bishops. But their hound dog expressions carry less weight with me.

88. How Are Humans Unique?

Comment #184483 by Auraboy on May 25, 2008 at 1:15 pm

I'm not sure how we'd know an ape doesn't have a developed sense of right or wrong. But as you describe it, neither do the apes that call themselves human beings. Moral development is noticeable for the word development. Moral choice and understanding has originated and morphed across generations and civilisations. What is right and wrong are important questions but to ignore the fact they have changed over time and through cultural pressures and intersocial development is to ignore the very point. Morality has developed in it's own fundamental evolutionary way. I'm sure there are far more knowledgeable people on here who can point out the areas of study for this.

Still nothing separates us from animals.

89. How Are Humans Unique?

Comment #184469 by Auraboy on May 25, 2008 at 12:22 pm

I think just about anybody with even a hint of credibility or a vague faculty for critical thinking has managed to note that Terry Eagleton seems to want limelight more than anything and throws out such blithering aspersions at anyone and anything that he really shouldn't be allowed to call himself a critic. More of an amateur rotten veg thrower. His ongoing spat with Martin Amis was another dribbling argument that made anybody who thought these were part of the intelligentsia want to bang their head against the rather muck stained walls of Manchester's English department.

Have the affront to say something because it's true and worry about whether it's fitting later. Dawkins says religion is flawed, often a cause of evil and simply, fundamentally not true. Discomfort has nothing to do with that argument. Comfort is not a factor in truth. Comfort is a factor in comfort. It doesn't mean you have to ignore it, but some of these critics really are painfully guilty of some fuzzy categorisation.

90. How Are Humans Unique?

Comment #184463 by Auraboy on May 25, 2008 at 11:10 am

Chimpanzee communities have also been seen to make social outcasts, beat and even murder individuals within a group and not for any apparent mating or power struggles. They have also been seen to forgive outcasts and even re-introduce them into the social fold despite the disadvantages to the individuals who choose to do so.

Of course I think reading in some human preference into the article is a little extreme. The author appears to be pointing out behavioural differences that have been directly observed. Observation and decree are not normally the same thing. Even in a truncated newspaper article.

91. Kenya mob reportedly burns 11 'witches'

Comment #183559 by Auraboy on May 22, 2008 at 9:12 am

Wow. We need a happy story on here soon or we'll just have to start killing ourselves.

92. In God's Name

Comment #183556 by Auraboy on May 22, 2008 at 9:07 am

Fanusi, thank you for your comments but frankly consistently telling everyone who might have some sympathy with your view that they're all going to die and our views are pathetic and unhelpful isn't really advancing any of these topics. Just a general point. Your intolerance has a distinctly unpleasant flavour. Of course, I assume you won't try to cut my head off if I don't agree that Islam will only be defeated by burning everything in relation, so maybe you are ahead of the game there. Just a point.

Of course, I said education was the start and root of the reply, as I went on to say it is nothing like the sum total and if you don't like replying to anything except the first sentence of people's posts that's fine but it won't get your opinion advanced very far.

I'm not an expert and I'm not in favour of a multi-cultural approach at all, or cultural relativism, or siding with fundamentalist christianity in order to wage war against the idea of Islamic domination. When I say I'd prefer no one was holding the whips I was responding to the earlier point that it would be preferable for the fundy christians to hold it. Fuck 'em all. There's far more they have in common and their drag to war than any have with me. I'm not choosing to speak for atheists in general.

I find the idea of Turkey fascinating however. It doesn't seem to have worked at all. Merely pushed Islamic parties into power and pushed intolerance to fascist levels. If our only options is to be crushed by Islamic revolution or end up integrating them into a throat slit secular state and end up the same way, I'm not sure that counts as a resolution either.

But hey, it's an opinion.

93. Kenya mob reportedly burns 11 'witches'

Comment #183448 by Auraboy on May 22, 2008 at 6:31 am

Clearly it takes a wizard to make someone dumb... *sigh*

94. In God's Name

Comment #183445 by Auraboy on May 22, 2008 at 6:28 am

I think we'll find a great deal of violence and insanity perpetrated by fundamentalists of all religions and protected by moderates who can't quite bring themselves to openly condemn something they see as a product of anger or oppression. Perceived victimhood allows a great swathe of retaliatory action we would never consider normal.

I think there's also a problem with the Islamic discussion that it's still the 'cultural' versus 'religious' model. I know plenty of Asians who are culturally muslim but have no faith whatsoever. In Christianity we'd call them atheists. It's this identity problem we've heard discussed before.

Anyway, I don't want anybody holding the whips thanks. I suspect education is the start of any answer here. Fighting for the freedom of children not to be indoctrinated is about the only start I can think of. But if anyone has a better idea other than the current nuke all muslim countries etc I'm sure it'd be welcome.

95. MPs reject calls to cut abortion limit

Comment #183431 by Auraboy on May 22, 2008 at 5:36 am

Edward Leigh has previously stated and supported colleagues who have stated that insults to Jesus Christ are directly hurtful and offensive to Christians, an equivalent to the harm done by the cartoons of Mohammed, and that Blasphemy laws should protect the sanctity of Jesus from harm or ridicule. He has also stated that freedom of speech should protect religious people who decry homosexuality and insult and abuse homosexuals as this is a 'free expression of religious position.'

Basically, he's the sort of Catholic who says you can't call my 2000 year old dead martyr figure any bad names because that's hatred but I can say gay people are insane and unfit because it says so in my book.

I'm so glad we elect people like this into office.

96. MPs reject calls to cut abortion limit

Comment #183237 by Auraboy on May 21, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Condoms at gunpoint.

97. In God's Name

Comment #183230 by Auraboy on May 21, 2008 at 2:40 pm

I think the confusion of comments kicked in there...Still, the cultural lack of piety and obedience and the admiration of those who are more openly and deeply religious is something I'd ascribe to the blatant hypocrisy resplendent in every religion. I don't think I'm missing the point at all. I think fighting fundamentalism means first understanding and then fighting the lapsed hypocrites who protect it.

98. In God's Name

Comment #183224 by Auraboy on May 21, 2008 at 2:28 pm

If you look at most Muslims you'll find very few in the West who could really honestly call themselves full practising muslims, very few who could heed every call of strictly interpreted Sharia decree. I still think it's a cultural idea that 'well, as long as there are some hardcore fundamentalist brothers out there doing the proper religioning for us, it makes me feel better...I can't quite bring myself to behead every apostate, but it's nice to know there are some wandering around who keep up traditions...'

99. MPs reject calls to cut abortion limit

Comment #183217 by Auraboy on May 21, 2008 at 2:18 pm

I've noticed quite a number of people on the tube who don't even appear to have developed consciousness well after birth...

100. In God's Name

Comment #183211 by Auraboy on May 21, 2008 at 2:13 pm

I suppose the Christian position is to directly alter the laws of the land through power and influence, the general Islamic consensus appears to be have a concurrent law running. Neither is particularly appealing. It should be pointed out that many Muslims claiming the need for Sharia law to have affect are talking about 'for the Muslim community' to distribute it's own rulings and justice. But you either have one law for all or you don't. And slippery slopes and all that jazz...