51. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47729 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 11:20 am

Here in the UK, we see BBC documentaries interviewing settlers claiming the land is theirs because God decreed it 3000 years ago or whatever.


We seem those there videos too. The point, again, is that the vast majority of Israelis are not brought up like that; the vast majority of Palestinians are.

Rtambree:

I'm not being sarcastic, but can you say why Israel should be ashamed for using American-supplied weapons? To me, it's what they do with the weapons (which is usually reasonable, and never as bad as their enemies) and not where they get them.

52. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47720 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 10:57 am

How far back to you draw the line where the tit for tat begins. 2006? 1967? 1948? 1917? 67AD?

Fair enough. Now who do you think would stop respoding? And who would make peace? Israel or Hamas?

Who could or will be able to make peace? You don't see such videos coming from Israeli schools.

53. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47709 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 10:35 am

To a Martian observer, the body count would be an important and objective, quantifiable measure in helping to decide which groups are inflicting the most carnage.

To a Martian observer who stopped by the UN, Israel would be the nastiest country on our planet. (The last UN Human Rights commision/council meeting condemned Israel something like eight times, and no other nations.)

I think the aliens would be swift enough to do more than count bodies or check with the UN. I think they'd say "These guys are killing themselves and innocent people for a God that doesn't exist. Whoa, that's some kind of lower life form s*** they do down there."

54. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47705 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 10:29 am

"It was reported that soldiers were kidnapped in response to Israel kidnapping civilians"

Huh? Where? And even if it's true, sorry, who'd buy the "civilian" part of that?

55. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47699 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 10:14 am

The Sam Harris quote in 21. above begs to be posted again.

I sure does .

(the whole thing is here: http://howtoplayalone.wordpress.com/8/)

Harris' words twenty years from now are going to resound like Orwell's do today.

Israel deserves a lot, maybe most, of the criticism it gets.

What is nearly incomprehensible are the defenses of Hamas and Hezbollah. Talk about religious fanatics; these guys (sorry ladies, membership denied) are fanatical, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, totalitarian hopeful imperialists.

56. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47695 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 9:53 am

Rtambree, Comment #47669:

Who would you rather take your chances against? The crazed suicide bomber with a vest of explosives, or the jets, bombers, tanks and artillery of one of the deadliest military forces in the world? If you're unsure, just look at the respective bodycounts over the last 40 years.

The question, to my mind, is where would you rather live; everyone would say Israel. The Gaza could be virtually an independent state now, if the Palestinians used their money (they get more aid per head than any one else in the world, even after Hamas was elected), used their money to build an economy and schools and hospitals, instead of embezzeling it and using the leftovers for smuggled weapons (wait till they have a source of more accurate missles; you can expect a higher Israeli civlian body count then, and greater retaliation: the body count is in Hamas' hands). I'd rather live in Israel because the Palestinians have been so indoctrinated (as in THIS VIDEO) to want the destruction of Israel more than their own state, that their society is in tatters, and Israel doesn't even have anyone to negotiate with.

If I were Palestinian, I'd rather Hamas disappear if I wanted the bombs stop. Most Lebanese would like to see Hezbollah disappear, as the Palestinians who live in camps in Lebanon would like to see the recently-arrived terrorists that took over the camps and are fighting the Lebanese government as we write, most Palestinians would like to see them disappear.

Israel had pulled out of Lebanon (as they have from Gaza) and certainly didn't want another dangerous border, and would have stayed out had Hezbollah not incited Israel (it was indeed there attention to provoke an attack, but Nasrallah said he didn't realize how powerfully, if ineptly and if you must war-criminally, Israel would retaliate).

The idea that Israel is successful (sometimes) at doing more damage than their enemies doesn't make them morally wrong. Hezbollah hid amongst civilians, wore civilian clothes, and fired from inside of apartment buildings, regularly, almost exclusively (pointing to cluster bombs doesn't change that).

Israel tried to avoid civilian casualties (every dead civilian is a PR nightmare for Israel as world opinion will tell you; it's not so for Hezbollah or Hamas - in many ways it's a PR bonus). The cluster bombs were in some cases possible war crimes, but everything Hezbollah did was a war crime, both against Israel and against the Lebanese.

I'd rather make peace with Israel, indeed it's Hezbollah and Hamas' charters that they will never make peace. I wouldn't expect Israel to try to even or lower the body count to please people like us who aren't fighting, or because they have any faith in Hezbollah or Hamas changing their tactics (who, ten years ago, would have ever thought Fatah would be called "moderate" by the media?). Hamas and Hezbollah could certainly stop attacking, revise their charters, and try to make peace, if they wanted lower civilian body counts.

Meanwhile, both Hamas and Hezbollah intentionally (why is this so rarely discussed?) try to kill as many civilians as possible, and openly admit they will never make peace.

We forget that the Palestinian economy was booming in 1999, and that they were this close to peace. Arafat rejected Barak's unprecedented offer, without even making a counter offer, and then Arafat called for a terror Intifada. I'd rather make peace with the Israelis.

It can be said that Israel doesn't try hard enough, but at least they're trying.

I have great sympathy for the Palestinians, and detest a lot of Israel's actions. But pretending it's all Israel's fault, or that it relative or equal, won't help - but it will encourage more of the same from those who refuse to make peace.

slpeterson:

It was WESTERN intelligence groups (including Mossad), by creating indoctrinal schoolbooks and other material, and creating the superheroes that controlled the movement, that basically re-awakened and unleashed the monster of Islamic fundamentalism in the middle east. They wanted a buffer between Europe and the great atheistic Soviet beast.

Can you maybe rephrase that? I'm not sure what it means.

They have also watched their religious rivals (Israel) annex their nation one piece down the barrel of American-supplied guns.

Well, America didn't start supplying weapons to Israel in any significant amount until after "annexed" those lands in '67 (most of which were returned, for peace (the Sinai) or to test the Palestinians' ability to become peaceful and build a nation if the land was returned unilaterally (Gaza).

---

Since this is a site about mostly science and religion, let's remember the motivations of those were talking about.

One leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is military vangaurd, has called for an end to science education in Egypt, because it contradicts the Koran.

Palestine, and particularly Hamas, is drenched in fundamentalism (when have you ever seen a woman in a news video from Palestine), and it's only growing (dramatically in the last ten years).

Israel is predominately secular, and a science capital of the world.

57. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47632 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 5:32 am

wagnerpe:

"The movie Jesus Camp portrays something very similar,"

It totally does, especially that scene with the camouflage, and marching music (which that creepy woman said she copied from our Muslim "enemies"), and that's why it was so frightening.

But I think if you read the comments on the Jesus Camp link no one said "The Palestinians do something very similar." I don't think anyone means to "persecute" anyone else, but rather to call out this fanatical (and militant) indoctrination of kids wherever it happens, to wage a war of ideas against it indeed, and not obfuscate by saying "well, we have our own religious fanatics."

I'd say we need to acknowledge what happens to kids like this when they grow up. I don't see any future Middle East peacemakers in the Jesus Camp or the occupied territories, or the West Bank settlements run by Orthodox Jews. The thing is, this brainwashing and demonizing of 'the other' is way more common in Palestine, probably almost universal during the last ten years.

They're not going to admit they're ridiculous anytime soon, but let's keep trying.

58. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47577 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 2:46 am

Spinoza -

"That said, if there is nothing wrong with North American children playing with guns, acting in Civil War plays, etc. etc. and watching G.I. Joe cartoons, playing with the toys, etc. Then there is nothing wrong with this. It's more of the same, and either it's all wrong, or none of it is."

It's either all wrong, or all OK? I don't think black and white statements like that are true of almost anything, but it's certainly possible to make a distinction between little boys (usually) playing guns, as most western kids unfortunately do, and and the indoctrination of children to intentionally kill themselves and take as many possible of the others with them as possible (a recent trend among Palestinian elementary school kids is trading suicide bomber trading cards, like Americans used to trade baseball cards).

Machoduck -

"And also, on which side is the body count highest?"

You could also ask on which side is the intended body count highest: Hamas is trying to kill as many Israelis, including children, as possible. Israel is trying not to.

And it's just not true that the Palestinians have "always" been there, nor that most Israelis think the land was given to them by God.

BAEOZ -

"I reckon Hamas would take out all the Isrealis, whereas the Isrealis would just take out Hamas."

First, Israel could just take out Hamas; they don't do so to (often sincerely) avoid civilian casualties and (often cynically) to avoid international condemnation. Israel had the chance, you could say, to "take out" the Palestinians many times, and didn't and wouldn't. The surrounding Arab nations have, at least three times, waged wars blatantly intended to "take out" Israel.

However nasty the occupation can be, and the reprehensible things Israel has done (yes, sometimes if rarely for religious reasons), we can see what Israel does when it wins wars. We are left to imagine what would happen, maybe what will happen, when Israel's enemies win - in fact, we don't need to imagine: read quotes from any of the leaders of Israel's enemies, and they'll tell you blatantly the genocide they're planning if Israel ever loses a major war.

And that's not what Harris said in his perfect weapon argument, and it's certainly not what he thinks about Hamas vis a vis the Israelis. He says time an again that not all religions are at present equally dangerous, nor do they teach the same things.

Furthermore, there's a huge difference in the amount of religious fanaticism between Israelis and Palestinians - that couldn't be clearer. Nearly half of Israelis poll as atheists or secularists. (Yes, the fanatically Orthodox Jews have a scary influence on the government).

Sam Harris:

In their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world, especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.

Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth were otherwise.

59. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47550 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 12:03 am

"Um. How is this worse than G.I. Joe?"

Um, a million ways? For one, GI Joe doesn't promise an eternal afterlife if you die as a martyr.

60. Lou Dobbs Interviews Christopher Hitchens

Comment #37567 by howtoplayalone on May 5, 2007 at 1:42 am

I'm happy to see only two people mentioned his drinking. He never seems to have gotten into any public trouble directly because of his drinking, and unlike so many other writers it hasn't hurt his productivity, to say the least. He seems to have modled himself after the old Fleet Street writers, and isn't the least ashamed of his habit. Good for him, and shame on those who criticize him for it.

I'm waiting for the lecture videos and audios with question and answers, and, as much as Dobbs did well to endorse the book so openly, I'd like to see a more confrontational interview, because that's what it takes to get Hitchens really going.

61. The Moral Necessity of Atheism

Comment #27331 by howtoplayalone on March 24, 2007 at 4:45 am

"Now I love him, now I hate him, but he never fails to inspire me to drink."

I think that's what Hitchens said about himself.

62. Stephen interviews Ayaan Hirsi Ali author of Infidel

Comment #26127 by howtoplayalone on March 17, 2007 at 5:12 am

"C'mon, Pantore, get it over with. Do your little AEI spiel."

Ha.

63. Free Speech

Comment #25630 by howtoplayalone on March 14, 2007 at 11:40 am

To NMcC: It's exactly that your kind of shrill attacks are missing on this site that makes it so pleasant. Not that it matters, but regarding the war in Iraq, you're probably preaching to the choir here.

64. Free Speech

Comment #25589 by howtoplayalone on March 14, 2007 at 7:45 am

Hitchens is going to give Dawkins a run for his money in two months when his new book -- God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything -- comes out. He's an even better writer than a speaker. Let's hope he keeps taking more from the drink than it takes from him.

Here's an article comparing fascism and Islamism. Seems a pretty fair comparison. Just lose the "o".