Comments by discipline

Comment #62358 by discipline on August 9, 2007 at 11:51 am

I don't find this funny at all. As RascoHeldall said, this is child abuse, plain and simple. It's amazing that any child can overcome this sort of incessant indoctrination. It's tragic and sad that they will spend their whole lives blinded to the beauty of reality by lies.

Besides mocking them in online forums, what can we American atheists/secularists do about this? Raise national science standards, even for private religious schools? Rescind their tax-free status? Prevent them from getting accredited? Require colleges to not accept students with this "education"? Require employers to not hire them?

Obviously, we need all these things, but I'm not holding my breath. We need a "Marshall Plan" for science education. Even with that, it'll be many generations before the US reaches the level of "enlightenment" of the secular European democracies (where it seems from the other threads that the only problem is a widespread belief in crystals and astrology).

Now I've gone and depressed myself.

52. Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

Comment #61866 by discipline on August 7, 2007 at 7:33 am

Jack Rawlinson:

Melanie Phillips is a well-known nutjob and her barking-mad rants have found their natural home at the Daily Mail. Pieces like this are so packed with swivel-eyed irrationality they aren't even worth dismantling. It'd be like beating up a three-week old corpse.

Yet she writes for a major newspaper and is the author of two books. The creationists also display "swivel-eyed irrationality." Yet they build a slick $25 million museum in the US and 60+% of Americans agree with them.

My point is that these people can't be easily dismissed, especially in the US. Sure, it's fun to mock them, but it's dangerous to dismiss them.

We need to respond to each of these articles whenever and wherever they emerge -- with reasoned arguments and not flippant scorn (however enjoyable that might be). In the US at least, people like Phillips are in the MAJORITY and have FAR more power and money than the tiny, weak band of bedraggled eccentrics and academics that represent the secular side.

53. Does the Bible have a place in public schools?

Comment #61749 by discipline on August 6, 2007 at 5:50 pm

"The vast majority of Texas Bible courses, despite their titles, do not teach about the Bible in the context of a history or literature class," according to the study. "Instead, the courses are explicitly devotional in nature and reflect an almost exclusively Christian perspective of the Bible. They assume that students are Christians, that Christian theological claims are true and that the Bible itself is divinely inspired — all of which are inappropriate in a public school classroom."

Frightening. This is exactly why American atheists/secularists should be focusing our (very) limited resources on religious education issues and not be distracted by relatively innocuous matters like New Age beliefs, astrology, etc. As somebody in the other thread said, leave that to James Randi and the like.

54. New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'

Comment #61473 by discipline on August 5, 2007 at 9:48 am

I wholeheartedly agree with drive1 above.

As I stated in the other thread, this is not a fruitful direction the "new atheist" movement should be going in. Sure, New Age quackery is probably derived from the same combination of wishful thinking and self-delusion that religion is, but the former is not leading the US and the world into a dangerous theocracy.

Belief in crystals or astrology isn't ruining American public school education, electing far-right born-again leaders, compromising civil rights and reproductive freedom, or compelling people to fly planes into buildings.

We secularists need to pick our battles and this new direction just dilutes our efforts.

55. The Gullible Age: Review of 'The Enemies of Reason'

Comment #61472 by discipline on August 5, 2007 at 9:43 am

I'm afraid that I have to rain on this parade.

I agree with Russell, but go much further. This is not a fruitful direction the "new atheist" movement should be going in. Sure, New Age quackery is probably derived from the same combination of wishful thinking and self-delusion that religion is, but the former is not leading the US and the world into a dangerous theocracy.

Belief in crystals or astrology isn't ruining American public school education, electing far-right born-again leaders, compromising civil rights and reproductive freedom, or compelling people to fly planes into buildings.

We secularists need to pick our battles and this new direction just dilutes our efforts.

56. Philip Kitcher - Living with Darwin

Comment #59682 by discipline on July 30, 2007 at 7:08 am

An excellent interview (although Groethe does like to hear himself talk...).

Kitcher nails the reasons why the US is more fundamentalist than other Western countries: our type of extreme capitalism, the lack of social support programs, and the fear and uncertainty that fosters, creates a natural breeding ground for the religion meme.

Oh, and our education system is dismal, especially in the sciences (and especially in the biological sciences). Schools don't turn a profit, after all.

I also find it unfortunate that he attacks Richard et al., for their "negative tone." This perfectly falls into Richard's "I'm a atheist, but . . ." list.

I would, however, love to see Richard, Harris, Hitchens and Dennett write their next books about positive alternatives to dogmatic religion, such as secular humanism, naturalism, etc. To me, that's a more interesting question than shooting the religous fish in the barrel.

57. The hitch in Hitchens' thinking

Comment #58800 by discipline on July 26, 2007 at 7:19 am

As drive1 said above, we secularists/humanists need to encourage liberal Christians like Hedges, not mock them.

A nation of wishy-washy Unitarians would be vastly preferable to the USA's current descent into fundamentalist theocracy. Dawkins-like "scientific rationalism" is going to take generations to achieve, so fuzzy "Hedges-think" is a step in the right direction.

58. Phony Piety on the Far Right

Comment #57394 by discipline on July 19, 2007 at 6:51 am

While I agree that both liberal and fundamentalist Christians are equally deluded in their faith, secularists/atheists must form coalitions with the former to defeat the latter. Instead of demanding a perfect world, let's at least move things in the right direction.

The 'scientific rationalism' of Dawkins, et al will take generations to achieve in the US. (And then only if we have a 'Mashall Plan' for biology education, which is doubtful at this point.) The first step is to marginalize the fundamentalists and promote and support the Christian moderates, such as Chris Hedges, Al Gore, Bill Moyers, Jimmy Carter, etc.

That's all we American secularists can hope for in our lifetime... if we don't decend into a Christian theocracy first.

59. Town Hall Seattle: God Is Not Great

Comment #57303 by discipline on July 18, 2007 at 8:43 pm

One of the most entertaining videos posted on this site. The way he combines deep erudition and ribald sex jokes is a wonder to behold. A brilliant compliment to Dawkins, Harris, et al.

60. The Present Threat of the Religious Right to Our Modern Freedoms

Comment #51628 by discipline on June 23, 2007 at 9:36 pm

It is so gratifying that American secularists/non-believers have such an incredibly articulate and knowledgeable spokesperson as we have in Eddie Tabash. An impressive talk filled with frightening details about the rise of the US religious right.

If this doesn't motivate you to get involved in the fight, nothing will...

--TD

61. We stand awed at the heights our people have achieved

Comment #49657 by discipline on June 12, 2007 at 7:29 pm

One of the best essays I've read by PZ. Demolishes Fish with beautiful prose and profound, mature insight. Great work PZ!

62. A Look at Regent University

Comment #46493 by discipline on May 31, 2007 at 1:10 pm

To SteveN, who wondered if Liberty University's mock Supreme Court facility was true. Read it and weep:

http://www.liberty.edu/academics/law/index.cfm?PID=13575

Like I said, these people are well-funded and aggressive. For the first time, I'm genuinely worried about the future of my country.

63. A Look at Regent University

Comment #46395 by discipline on May 31, 2007 at 5:40 am

Frightening, indeed, but not surprising to those who follow the Religious Right.

And it gets worse. The other evangelical "university," Liberty University, just built a state-of-the-art building that exactly replicates the U.S. Supreme Court chambers -- for the express purpose of training Christian lawyers to argue Constitutional law.

If you Europeans, Canadians, Australians and American intelligensia didn't know about this, then it's time to wake up. America is clearly on the road to a fundamentalist theocracy.

And with the growing popularity of Christian homeschooling and the Christian infiltration of public schools, we're guaranteed generations more radical "dominionists." These people are well-funded and ultra-agressive, a dangerous combination.

The scientific rationalists on this board need to form relationships with the other types of secularists -- the libertarian/objectivist atheists, the Unitarians, Christian moderates like Chris Hedges, Al Gore, Bill Moyer, Jimmy Carter, etc., pagans, pantheists, punks, whatever! -- if we don't, then the U.S. will accelerate its downward spiral. And that won't be a pretty sight.

64. Sam Harris Strikes Back

Comment #45807 by discipline on May 29, 2007 at 10:32 am

While Hedges' views are certainly inchoate and it looks like another rout in favor of Sam Harris, I don't think we should be so hard on Hedges and other moderates. (Al Gore also comes to mind.)

From a practical and political standpoint, we (American) secularists desperately need to form coalitions with religious moderates like Hedges if we are to have any hope of stopping the impending fundamentalist theocracy. Hedges' book "American Fascists" was a devastating examination of the Religious Right (Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, et al.); freethinkers/skeptics need people like him on our side.

So, be gentle fellow travelers!

65. Adam and Eve in the Land of the Dinosaurs

Comment #44636 by discipline on May 25, 2007 at 6:03 am

This is actually great news.

The more laughably extreme the U.S. Christian Right becomes, the more quickly they'll fade into well-deserved obscurity. The more transparent their ignorance, the quicker the economic and cultural decline of the U.S., the less likely developing countries will continue to use America as a model to emulate.

Hopefully, they'll be opening a museum defending the Fixed Earth theory (http://www.fixedearth.com) next.

66. Christopher Hitchens is Not Great

Comment #40886 by discipline on May 15, 2007 at 6:54 am

"Most (with the exception of fundamentalists) would now concede that religions are true not in the same way that science or mathematics are true..."

"Most"?

Robbins needs to step outside his liberal/moderate/intelligensia circles and see the real America. Over 30% identify themselves as evangelical Protestants -- that's 100 million people. The debate is certainly not over for them.

America is dangerously close to becoming a fundamentalist Christian theocracy and moderates/agnostics like Robbins need to stop apologizing for the religious. The time for being polite is over.

67. World's most prominent atheist takes on the Biblical God (and other topics)

Comment #39342 by discipline on May 10, 2007 at 11:10 am

> Why bother getting all worked up?
> It's hilarious!

Funny yes, but we should never casually dismiss these people. They would be funny if they weren't so dangerous.

It's really funny when all the Europeans (and American academics) on this site express disbelief that the likes of Van Impe et al exists in the U.S. They exist, they are followed by tens of millions of people, they have huge budgets, they spread their "message" aggressively to children and to third-world counties, and they influence local, state, and national politics.

It would be funny if the U.S. weren't so close to a fundamentalist Christian theocracy.

68. A History of Doubt

Comment #38509 by discipline on May 8, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Phil Rimmer: Yes, I agree. She seems to veer off into cliched religious moderation at times -- a "faith in faith," as Dennett says -- but at the end does identify herself as a "doubter." I don't think she likes Dawkins-style, strident scientific rationalism though.

69. A History of Doubt

Comment #38500 by discipline on May 8, 2007 at 11:42 am

An excellent, substantive interview. I learned a lot.

I aspire to be a dog!

70. Two idiots get a forum

Comment #35777 by discipline on April 28, 2007 at 8:43 pm

William (#44) wrote: "I think people are focusing too much on the banana argument. Yes, it is hilarious. But don't think you can just laugh these guys away."

I totally agree. Mocking is fun, but if you live in the U.S., you know that this is no laughing matter. Remember that approx. 50% of Americans don't believe in evolution! (That's 150 million people, by the way.) We are one step away from a fundamentalist Christian theocracy.

As an example that creationists can't be dismissed, check out this list of dozens of "creation museums," including a brand new $30 million facility in Cincinnati:
http://nwcreation.net/museums.html

Combine this with Liberty University's (the infamous Jerry Falwell's 10,000-student Christian "University") new courtroom that exactly replicates the actual US Supreme Court, in order to train an army of Christian lawyers:
http://www.liberty.edu/media/1616/construction/Court_room_01.jpg

Frightened yet? Sure, laugh -- but don't dismiss people like Comfort and Cameron. They have far more power and resources than any secularist/atheist.

-Tim

71. Peanut Butter, The Atheist's Nightmare!

Comment #27952 by discipline on March 27, 2007 at 11:47 am

Sure, this sort of thing deserves to be mocked. However, I live in Virginia USA and I no longer find it funny.

These people are serious. They have millions of tax-free dollars at their disposal, they control the minds of millions of children, and have a vast and growing infrastructure to support them. To all of you in Europe and Australia, it might look like satire, but reality in the US these days is almost indistinguishable from satire.

We dismiss them at our peril. These are the "American Fascists" that Chris Hedges writes about:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Fascists-Christian-Right-America/dp/0743284437/

--TD

72. Turkey: Creationism Documentary

Comment #25586 by discipline on March 14, 2007 at 7:26 am

Great (and frightening) link, sottishgeologist. Here's another one that goes into more detail about the Christian right's 'cult of masculinity':

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070311_when_they_came_for_the_homosexuals/

73. Conservapedia v Wikipedia

Comment #24770 by discipline on March 8, 2007 at 12:29 pm

ScottishGeologist wrote:

"It MUST be a hoax... surely a parody... NOBODY can be this stupid can they?"

You're obviously not from the U.S. The answer to your question is an emphatic "yes."

I am a Ph.D. living near Lynchburg, Virginia, the site of Richard's lecture shown on the home page -- and home to the infamous Liberty University and Jerry Falwell. Believe me, the answer is "yes"!

The mostly European/Australian readership on this site have no idea how bad the situation is in this country. The American Christian right is not some fringe group of loonies that can be easily mocked and dismissed. They are approx. 30% of the U.S. population and growing -- that's 100 million people. (How many Scots are there again?) They have their own schools, their own media, and a virtually complete alternate economic system. They can go from cradle to grave without hearing any dissenting views, except in caricature. They aggressively spread their "faith" around the globe. They are FAR more well-funded than all the scientific/secular/atheist groups combined. And they are very well-armed -- one of their holiest sacraments is the right to bear arms.

Read Chris Hedges' "American Fascists" and be scared:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Fascists-Christian-Right-America/dp/0743284437

I used to find sites like "Conservapedia" funny, but I don't any longer. They should be taken very seriously. Ignore them at your peril.