Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

Comment #30465 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 8, 2007 at 6:00 am

The same stuff. We need to constantly counter these fluffy religious memes with our own cast iron one, which has and avalanche of evidence on it's side.

Atheists are, on average, more intelligent successful and well adjusted than theists. The more atheist a society is, the healthier it is in terms of crime and poverty.

This simply cannot be said often enough.

We also need to robustly reject the idea that communist societies were secular in any meaningful sense. Communisim, Nazism and "Rawandaism" all fit neatly under the umbrella of religious dogma. Any system that has true beleivers, dogma and kills "heretics" co-opts all the flaws of humanity that religion does.

On another note, I have taken the plunge and begun to publish stuff on youtube, let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ib5PXu_w68

1002. Crucifixion 'makes God into a psychopath'

Comment #30129 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 7, 2007 at 2:42 am

Not even the most ardent atheist would be in favor of ditching the Iliad or denying that it contains stories which are important on a whole range of different levels, even though its historical accuracy is close to zero.

No of course not. Absolutely agreed. I'm not suggesting we burn Bibles, or expunge it's existence. I mean ditching it as a meaningful guide to morality, or the "good life". Using it as the centerpiece of how you decide what you should and shouldn't do. That we must ditch, and the sooner the better.

As literature, art and a(n) (semi) historical document, lets keep and study it by all means, but lets keep it in it's box, understand it in it's context. Thats all.

1003. Crucifixion 'makes God into a psychopath'

Comment #30113 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 7, 2007 at 1:53 am

I also suspect that some parts of the Bible are among the most important contributions to humanist philosophy that have ever been written. Of course, you have to cherry-pick, but there are some very good cherries there.

Sure, but the few nuggets of wisdom that can be found in amongst the veritable blizzard of superstition, have long since been surpassed and improved by modern philosophers, or shown to have been profound but unoriginal.

The good stuff in religion has been so thoroughly blended with the venom of unreason, that the final result is as likely to be deadly as to be nourishing. So I say ditch it, lock stock and barrel and lets have a 21st century conversation about the way forward, unencumbered by the bullshit.

1004. Crucifixion 'makes God into a psychopath'

Comment #30103 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 7, 2007 at 1:11 am

3. Comment #30099 by christianjb on April 7, 2007 at 12:58 am

Many people are Christians because they are attracted to a modern humane philosophy of kindness and non-violence.

I don't have any problems with that.

None of us have a problem with that either. However, if its built on the foundation of atonement, the kindness and non-violence is forever truncated, compromised and crippled. If God can murder his own son, what else can be justified?

1005. Militant atheists: too clever for their own good

Comment #30098 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 7, 2007 at 12:56 am

Actually case not completely closed. The meme that on average, atheists are more intelligent than those professing a religion is a powerful one.

It acts in the positive as the "heaven" meme, and in the negative as the "hell" meme. At once pushing and pulling people toward the rational position. It also has the value of being true (with a small t) and verifiable.

I don't think that this can be said often enough frankly.

As regards stupid atheists, as the "movement" (thats what they are calling it on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5JMb3x43X8) becomes broader, less intelligent people are coming on board. Lets think about this, they are coming to a large extent from the pool of theists. If it is true that more intelligent and reflective people embrace atheism (and this observations is fairly uncontroversial) then those leaving faith, for atheism, are on average more intelligent than those remaining.

Thus on average the relative ratio of intelligence theist to atheist remains static, even though our overall average may be sinking. Am I overthinking this? Probably, but you guys are smart, you get the idea:-)

1006. Militant atheists: too clever for their own good

Comment #30082 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 6, 2007 at 11:42 pm

And what sort of a belief system is it that asserts the superiority of Richard Dawkins, Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford, over the woman who toils in paddy fields, or the child who begs in the dirt, or the prisoner in his chains?

A sensible one. What could a dirt poor peasant in a paddy field know about anything? This is the same assault on intelligence we've seen a thousand times from the rabid fundies, albeit marginally more subtle. I might also add that superior intelligence is an objective reality, intrinsic worth is something quite different, and should be extended to everyone. Would that religion would get out of the goddam way and let us get on with it!!! But I digress.

The statistical aggregate for intelligent people shows a clear negative correlation with faith. If God is real we can conclude that either he hates clever people and wants them to burn in hell for eternity or go poof at death or whatever your particular brand of mythology claims, or that clever people are inatley more evil than stupid people. The first cannot be examined (as usual), the 2nd is not born out by other sets of statistics. At worst, clever people are just as flawed (from a culturally based good/bad morality) as stupid people. So you'll need to play the "mystery" card for that one.

If God does not exist, then this correlation makes total sense. Religion is mostly bullshit, and while there are outliers, on both sides, clever people are less amenable to bullshit that stupid people. Case closed.

1007. Is God a Delusion?

Comment #30038 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 6, 2007 at 10:04 am

We no longer live in small groups of hunter-gatherers surrounded by similar groups, yet our human nature evolved at a time when we did.

This is the clue to what is "bad" and what is "good". In these small groups, we rarely inflicted harm on each other, because we were all part of the same extended family group, the same ingroup. The best, most heroically selfless behaviour in this ingroup context is "good".

From here, the solution is simple (to articulate!!), extend the ingroup to everyone. Global laws equally impinging on a global people, legislate "do unto others" into binding global law.

1008. The God Debate

Comment #30033 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 6, 2007 at 9:30 am

106. Comment #29725 by truthseeker on April 4, 2007 at 1:16 pm

I detect not a small amount of envy in you atheists, and a not so small amount of fear. Yes, envy of the certainty of "born again" Christians; fear that you may be going to Hell.

My experience is that it's the christians who are the most terrified of Hell, and with good reason in my view.

If you beleive all the rest of it, the fuzzy details of how to acheive and maintain "salvation", are a heart attack in waiting. Why do we have hundreds of christian sects? Because the Bible is a ghastly self contradictory, internally inconsistent muddle.

So no, from my objective view, I'm as frightened of being sent to hell by Jesus, as I am of being sent there by Allah, Jehovah or Thor. You on the other hand, have no real certainty that you've got the right "version" of Christianity. How could you be? There are a thousand variations to choose from, and besides to think you had the absolute truth would be arrogant right? So risky business, and God can be real tetchy if you get it wrong, and he's results oriented ... not terribly interested in the whys and wherefores. Good luck that.

Also, don't forget not to blaspheme the holy spirit .... ooops did you just think those words? Dearie, dearie me.

1009. U.N. Draft Cites Humans in Recent Climate Shifts

Comment #30024 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 6, 2007 at 8:37 am

And Briancoughlandworldcitizen, what happened, did you get up on the wrong side of the bed today? You are close to being gracious in this thread!!!(;_)))

Hey! I can be nice:-) Besides, no one is out and out saying all them scientists 'er paid off and workin' for the devil!! Or Ah don' beleive in global warmin'. Like what we beleive makes a blind bit of difference:-)

Still if they do show up, I can be friendly. I've reformed.

1010. U.N. Draft Cites Humans in Recent Climate Shifts

Comment #30005 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 6, 2007 at 5:10 am

Keep an eye on our federal elections. We should always keep an eye on all 1st world countries' elections. It is such a graph of what is actually happening with these pollies and our countries.

I always do, I keep an eye on all major elections. I'm watching out for an online election to take place for the american president in 2008. I love how it ruffled feathers the last time (I was directly involved) and I bet this time, given the growth of global citizens online, we are going to see some serious participation.

http://www.leaderofthefreeworld.com/

1011. U.N. Draft Cites Humans in Recent Climate Shifts

Comment #30003 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 6, 2007 at 4:34 am

We can try to change the global trend, but don't expect much organized help from the US. More likely we will all simply have to live with it.

Oh I think you both underestimate the US capacity to see it's own self interest, and overestimate the influence that a fraction of the global population can continue to wield as everyone else becomes aware of the the disproportinate global power (hah! sort of a pun) the US has gathered to itself.

There will be dislocation, and change and upheaval, but the US will be experiencing it along with the rest of us. The US urgently needs to reasses the sort of cultural values you note in your post, they are arguably as dangerous and irrational as any religious ideology.

1012. Is God a Delusion?

Comment #29981 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 10:42 pm

Wha? Pardon? You are telling me that because people disagree, some massive plan is occuring? I'm confused at what you are getting at.

I'm saying that people disagree and both parties think that they have a compelling and reasoned position.

This is not the same thing as a claiming the bible is the inerrant word of God in the teeth of overwhelming evidence.

For example, Helian and I disagree on what should be said about the US publicly as regards her actions on the international stage. I think my position is soundly based in reason, he thinks his is too (but I know he's stark raving mad) and we had a huge exchange about it. Something else is going on in the human brain (or at least in Helians brain. Mines fine), and it would be cool if we could work out what it was.

1013. U.N. Draft Cites Humans in Recent Climate Shifts

Comment #29980 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 10:14 pm

28. Comment #29971 by philos on April 5, 2007 at 8:00 pm

What sparked my comments was dismay and concern
that this 'clear-thinking oasis' website is
cloaked in liberally biased propaganda,

Oh dear. Where to start. Not all atheists are monolithic about this issue. Exhibit A, a nasty argy bargy between several of us on the thread below :

http://richarddawkins.net/article,805,How-Many-Scientists,Thomas-L-Friedman-The-New-York-Times

My own position remains that when 90% of the relevant experts are broadly agreed on an issue, it is "9/11 was an inside job" class paranoia to suspect some kind of conspiracy. The science is in, the jury has returned and it's time for action.

I grant you that there are some serious disagreements still to be had about what specific action to take, not least the disputed value of an ethanol economy. Hence my view that solar, wind and wave are the way to go. Subsidise, tax incentivise and create a local army of installers and maintainers for home systems, and modernise the grid so that it works in both directions. Oh and push hybrids and those compressed air cars, and BAN hummers. You should be fined just for having one of those bastards, and do community service for having the poor taste to actually drive one.

What we cannot have is people wandering around claiming that "the jury is out" and "we need more science before we act". This is pissing in the pool, simply contradicted by the facts and if you are doing it today you are a grade A, government inspected miserable shit. (was that sufficiently rude Veronique? I didn't want to disappoint:-))

Now as to your other comments. Americans make up about 3% of the global population. This "liberally biased propaganda", is actually what a lot of people think outside the US, and even in the US. In fact I would argue, that as ideologies go, narrow nationalistic republicanism, ala the GOP is a bizarre minority position globally.

What I'm really saying I guess is this. Please, lets keep your wierd pseudo-religious, completely irrational and dogmatic, uniquely American (and deeply valueless) internal struggles out of our faces, the world has enough real problems to deal with.

1014. U.N. Draft Cites Humans in Recent Climate Shifts

Comment #29899 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 11:50 am

EDIT: Pros and cons of ethanol at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

Good article. The other pro, is you can make ethanol from almost anything vegetable, even wood. Once demand rises, these other options should come onstream to fill the demand?

1015. U.N. Draft Cites Humans in Recent Climate Shifts

Comment #29885 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 10:29 am

While many have begun to realize the threat of climate change and unstable foreign oil supplies, they rush right to energy sources that could possibly cause greater environmental and social destruction than oil/gas (I'm thinking ethanol here).

I must confess total confusion on this front. So much pro, so much con.

That said, I do prefer the idea of massive promotion and subsidy of home solar and wind, if every person on earth provided their own home electricity, and could charge their own vehicles. That would knock a big hole in the problem. Why get into ethanol in such a big way when these options exist?

1016. The Most Hated Family in America

Comment #29875 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 9:31 am

Just had an idea, could these guys be secret atheists? Simply showing christianity in such a dreadful light that everyone who sees is disgusted?

You know!! Fifth columnists, maybe we should be funding them!!!

1017. U.N. Draft Cites Humans in Recent Climate Shifts

Comment #29873 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 9:03 am

The ideal forum for a major atheist civil war type punch up:-) I say if you're not doing something to cut back energy use or encourage alternate energy, you're a selfish, reckless bastard!!!

1018. Is God a Delusion?

Comment #29870 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 8:59 am

In my comment 35, I agreed with Helian

ooops missed that, my bad. Well at least we can agree on that. I'd love to plumb the depths of some major disagreement in pure rational mode and have my own prejudices challenged. Whose with me?

1019. Is God a Delusion?

Comment #29866 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 8:43 am

@sane1

"Just because some of us disagree with you and have pointed out where you have been mistaken, doesn't make us fundamentalists. The problem is your inadequate arguments, not our inaccessibility.'"

Sane, is there not any scope for doubt that your position may not be as rational as you think? I've been at it as hard with Helian on the anti-americanism thing as anyone, but I get what he's saying here.

When both parties are claiming reason is on their side (we are all atheists so this is a given, or at least we think it is), and yet fail utterly to reach a satisfactory conclusion, or even a compromise, something else is going on. We need to find out what in the fuck that is. Sorry, Irish, it's in the blood:-)

1020. Is God a Delusion?

Comment #29857 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 8:02 am

Why, surely, they all belong in the asylum, too! It seems the hardest truth for me to face is that it is not inappropriate that I, too, am an inmate.

I'm with you on that. It is a tough one. It reminds me of the anecdote of the chap, who after a lengthy discussion about the madness so prevalent in much of the world, finally turns to his conversation partner and says ... "The truth of the matter, is we are the only two sane men in the world, ... and we're not that sure about you."

1021. The Most Hated Family in America

Comment #29847 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 7:20 am

This you have got to see ..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEcEwPszfrE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs%2Ecom%2Fpharyngula%2F

1022. Is God a Delusion?

Comment #29846 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 7:20 am

This you have got to see ..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEcEwPszfrE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs%2Ecom%2Fpharyngula%2F

1023. The Most Hated Family in America

Comment #29841 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 6:12 am

I decide to write to these people. Suggest more of us do the same. No vitriol, just humanity. Maybe one of them while be helped.

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/html/contact.html

I recently watched the channel 4 documentary about your church. I am an atheist and had some questions, which you perhaps don't often get.

I imagine you must get an avalanche of email and communications from engraged Christians claiming you are besmirching their faith, but I think, perhaps like yourselves, that this is disingenous. In principle you ARE living a more biblically consistent lifestyle than "mainstream" Christianity, and for that internal consistency you are to be congratulated.

My question relates to the foundation that the entire premise rests on, namely the Bible. The Bible is cluster of heavily edited (primarily) bronze age documents, choosen by catholic clerics with a 4th century political agenda. Why should we pay such a document any notice at all? What is it about the Bible that convinces you that it is the inspired word of God?

The other point is sort of theological. You seem to have a strong calvinist strain in your thinking, essentially that all fates are foreordained by God in advance. If you are the elect, chosen by God, why not do as you please? Why subject yourselves and your children to a lifetime of rejection? Surely whatever choice you make is foreordained, ergo what you actually do doesn't make a blind bit of difference? So enjoy yourself:-)

Finally, those girls are just lovely. Such a pity to force them to waste their lives, for what at best is a radical gamble that you (adults) are right, especially if everything is predestined, why not let them live their lives as they like?

1024. Is God a Delusion?

Comment #29812 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 5, 2007 at 12:28 am

15. Comment #29803 by davyB on April 4, 2007 at 9:26 pm

I would wait in line for an hour for a chance to smack the agnostic. He could give lessons on how to sound like an annoying jerk.

This is what I term "pissing in the pool". It's the same kind of thing, often done in honesty, by people claiming the "jury is out" in evolution versus creationsim, AGW yes/no? and of course the biggy God yes/no?

A rationalist has to go with the probability. Sure there is wiggle room where propositions approach each other in probability value, but once a given proposition is double or triple the value of another, the rational thing is to act on that knowledge.

So I call myself an atheist, do I have 100% certainty that the Christian God does not exist? No, but it's close. Do I have 100% certainty that no omnipotent being exists that created the universe, absolutely not, but whatever the probability, it is of zero comfort to a standard theist. This God could be evil, or simply not give a shit, or be insane by human standards.

Once you begin to layer on detail (triune, all loving and powerful, hates sin, loves you, but will torture you in hell unless you toe a disturbingly fuzzy line etc.), the probability of your particular Godlet being the real thing, very quickly drops to zero, or so nearly zero as to make no practical difference.

1025. The Most Hated Family in America

Comment #29712 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 4, 2007 at 10:27 am

YOU'RE GONNA EAT YOUR BABIES!!!

Thanks for those .... ah .. kind words Pastor Phelps.

My heart went out to the young woman that Louis spent some time trying to get through to. Here she is, on the threshold of her life, and all she has to look forward too is a lifetime of slavery and servitude to arguably, the most reactionary and objectionable version of a soon to be dead mystery cult.

What a waste, what an appalling, tragic waste of a life.

1026. Aids Victims Risk Lives

Comment #29572 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 12:47 pm

15. Comment #29563 by KRISS on April 3, 2007 at 12:31 pm

If you ask me i think aids is just a form of evolution or the beginning of the end of man.

DUDE! Every disease is an agent of evolution, the point is we know it now. That means we don't just let people die of stuff that can be cured with a couple of daily pills.

Your comment has a wierd eugenics, christian eschatological resonance to it, if it was unintentional, consider this a heads up. If thats what you meant, well, if you really want to "improve the race", start with yourself.

1027. A History of Violence

Comment #29548 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 11:13 am

ROTFL .. yeah, I suppose it is at that:-)

1028. A History of Violence

Comment #29541 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 10:52 am

Helian, these Tomes of yours would benefit from the use of html tags for italics and bold.

now I'm quoting

Now I'm responding. Just a thought.

And why must you be so spuriously contrary?

1029. Atheist says he's victim of religious hate crime

Comment #29509 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 7:02 am

Hey fellow godless infidels, please stop by and comment on the following BBC article : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6517807.stm

The more of us that comment there, the more mainstream atheism becomes:-) Evangelise!!! Spread the good news of freedom from religous slavery and from the insidious threat of eternal torment!!!

1030. The Selfish Green

Comment #29508 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 7:02 am

1031. Religion useless to Dawkins

Comment #29507 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 7:01 am

1032. Time in the Animal Mind

Comment #29506 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 7:01 am

1033. Aids Victims Risk Lives

Comment #29505 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 6:59 am

1034. Aids Victims Risk Lives

Comment #29496 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 5:32 am

Sheesh ..... this makes me vibrate with anger. Isn't this the line that has to be drawn? Shouldn't this simply be illegal?

Drugs that have been proven to be beneficial, have to spend years in clinical trial before being authorised for general use, but any random moron can stand up on a soapbox and make effectivley any claim at all, utterly absent evidence, and thats ok. Thats acceptable. We just have to suck it up? There should be a way to sue these people, at a minimum.

The way religion co-opts desperation is so sickening, and so clear to me now.

1035. Richard Dawkins Explains 'The God Delusion'

Comment #29458 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 3, 2007 at 1:54 am

Great, I'm going to take a day off bitching, after what I just saw RD subjected to over at the Postmodernism thread. The dirty bastards are even worse than me.

I'll take what I can get:-) Truce? We are all atheists together, eh?

1036. Planting the Mammalian Supertree

Comment #29254 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2007 at 8:54 am

... an actual giant hand reaching down....

No, No ... 'cause God works in mysterious ways an that ... doesn'ee?

The fact of the matter is the eviloutionsists got it wrong ... again. Whereas the Bible got it right from the start, what with the big bang and the order of creation and that.

1037. Planting the Mammalian Supertree

Comment #29242 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2007 at 7:58 am

aHAAAAAAA ..... prove positive if any were needed of the hand of divinty guiding and shaping evolution through the eons.

1038. Richard Dawkins Explains 'The God Delusion'

Comment #29197 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 2, 2007 at 3:33 am

Well, at least you've made some effort to clarify your position as regards criticism of the US.

Still though it's very hard to come to grips with exactly what bugs you. You've not really raised any issues of substance. Your claims about Dawkins are clearly nonsense, as evidenced by the paucity of detail you bring to the table, namely a single incident of poor research on behalf of Richards staff. The "american taliban" may be hyperbole, but you couldn't possibly deny that a dangerous religious minority is sparing no effort to shred the American constituion, and you wisely don't.

All the rest, claiming that an undifferentiated European media cabal are interested in marketing hate of America is simply ludicrous, not least because such uniformity of purpose rarely occurs absent a significant effort of co-ordination, and sometimes not even then!! Try working in an organisation of any significant size, and this becomes readily apparent.

We all have our blind spots, and I'm aware that my anger with the current US regime occasionaly drifts in anti-americanism, but nothing I've stated as a personal view on the thread has been wildly controversial. Really, not even the 500K Iraqis killed as a result of the war can count as "anti-american", it's a well researched and widely supported piece of analysis. You said yourself that a mere assertion doesn't count. Surely one supported by evidence is even less likely to qualify?

Perhaps you think I'd prefer a world where the major power was China, or the former Soviet Union or a resurgent Islamic Caliphate? Of course not, we are very fortunate that the worlds most powerful nation is broadly democratic and often amenable to reason. That doesn't mean we keep our mouths shut when they do bad things, and lately they have done some very bad, and very, very stupid things. Who could possibly deny this and retain a shred of credibility?

If wanting to have a say in major decisions that affect the world, or objecting to major nation states riding roughshod over global majorities opposed to particular action is "anti-american" then I guess, I'm guilty as charged. You might just as well call me "anti-chinese/indian/german/british", you get the idea:-)

In conclusion:-) It strikes me that someone obsessing about how the most powerful nation state that the world has ever seen is being subjected to criticism (justified or otherwise), but has little of substance to say about the real deaths of tens thousands (I trust this meets with your approval?) of their fellow human beings has, at the very least, a rather singular sense of proportion.

P.S. I'm just finishing up Jean Meslier's excellent book on your recommendation, so thanks for that:-)

1039. The God Debate

Comment #29154 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 10:44 pm

Project Gutenberg's Superstition In All Ages (1732), by Jean Meslier

This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with
almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or
re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included
with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org

Title: Superstition In All Ages (1732)
Common Sense

Author: Jean Meslier

Commentator: Voltaire

Translator: Anna Knoop

Release Date: January 25, 2006 [EBook #17607]

Language: English

Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1

*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK SUPERSTITION IN ALL AGES (1732) ***

1040. The God Debate

Comment #29151 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 10:24 pm

Comment #29130 by jcole_15 on April 1, 2007 at 7:27 pm

"When we die, if he's right, I've lost nothing. If I'm right, he's lost everything. I'm not willing to make that gamble" That is the worst point a religious person can make. They are saying they are only religious because they are afraid of going to hell ...
--------------------------------

Here is an extract from a brilliant book I am currently reading that nails this. A wonderful fellow Atheist Helian, introduced me to it :

For the generality of men nothing renders an argument more convincing than fear. In consequence of this fact, theologians tell us that the safest side must be taken; that nothing is more criminal than incredulity; that God will punish without mercy all those who have the temerity to doubt His existence; that His severity is just; since it is only madness or perversity which questions the existence of an angry monarch who revenges himself cruelly upon atheists.

If we examine these menaces calmly, we shall find that they assume always the thing in question. They must commence by proving to our satisfaction the existence of a God, before telling us that it is safer to believe, and that it is horrible to doubt or to deny it. Then they must prove that it is possible for a just God to punish men cruelly for having been in a state of madness, which prevented them from believing in the existence of a being whom their enlightened reason could not comprehend. In a word, they must prove that a God that is said to be full of equity, could punish beyond measure the invincible and necessary ignorance of man, caused by his relation to the divine essence.

Is not the theologians' manner of reasoning very singular? They create phantoms, they fill them with contradictions, and finally assure us that the safest way is not to doubt the existence of those phantoms, which they have themselves invented. By following out this method, there is no absurdity which it would not be safer to believe than not to believe.

All children are atheists—they have no idea of God; are they, then, criminal on account of this ignorance? At what age do they begin to be obliged to believe in God? It is, you say, at the age of reason. At what time does this age begin? Besides, if the most profound theologians lose themselves in the divine essence, which they boast of not comprehending, what ideas can common people have?—women, mechanics, and, in short, those who compose the mass of the human race?

1041. How Many Scientists?

Comment #29149 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 10:11 pm

I have seen studies that I cannot unfortunately reference, indicating the input energy costs such as fertilizers used in the creation of the ethanol itself,

Yeah I've seen those too. Yet Brazil seems to have made a very good job of building an Ethanol economy. The corn to ethanol idea does worry me, but the upside is that ethanol can be produced from almost any vegatation given the right process. What I really don't like about it, is the scale of change and redirection of funds ethanol represents. It has an "eggs in one basket" quality that disturbs me.

You are right though, wind and solar, especially private consumer versions could really knock a hole in our energy consumption. Imagine a world where every household produces all their own energy, and powers their own vehicles?

Finally nuclear. I'm not a fan for one major reason - terrorism. I don't think a reasonable case can be made that nuclear accidents could easily happen, not in modern plants, and absolutely not in those on the drawing board. However, focused malice is a whole other ball game, and a real threat:-(

We shall see what we come up with:-)

1042. Richard Dawkins Explains 'The God Delusion'

Comment #29145 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 9:42 pm

You're enough of a caricature of a European America hater as it is.

What exactly is it that qualifies? So far it seems to be someone who disagrees with you that criticism of the US is legitimate, or that accepts for Iraqi casualties, (the low end) of numbers the British government has accepted as at least in the realm of feasible. This communicates to you the rock solid truth that the writers is an "america hater". Thats quite a leap:-)

I'm still bemused as to why anyone would devote such energy into defending the indefensible, especially when prosecuted by the powerful. It seems completely at odds with human nature, just for a start, and it does smack of obsession.

I've come across this kind of thing before of course, a relentless denial that anything done by any american ever had the taint of incompetence or self interest, but it's unusual to encounter it anywhere but the most reality free bastions of American Republican World.

As always there is an attempt to sound moderate, but this is easily exposed by demanding some detail as to what specifically could be construed as bad form. When they can't, or won't acknowledge some recent and specific act of outrage on the part of the US, then the it's clear they've retreated into a shell of denial.

Helian, my atheist buddy, thats you man. Try and snap out of it.

1043. Richard Dawkins Explains 'The God Delusion'

Comment #29064 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 1:07 pm

You sir, are going to drive me away from this website.

Is that a bad thing? Who the fuck are you?

1044. How Many Scientists?

Comment #29059 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 12:57 pm

Interesting that you mention Sweden is trying to wean itself of Nuclear power by importing electricity from the "Ost–Block" How is that electricity made?

Coal and Nuclear. Oh yeah, thats right .... Chernobyl nuclear. Myself, I'm agnostic about modern nuclear, but 30 year old russian plants in Poland? No thanks.

Is this just moving environmental responsibility into some one else's back yard, by not caring about HOW the product is made?

Totally, but to their credit they are embarrased about it. Sweden also has a big chunk of renewables in the mix, and is planning for lots more.

I would suspect given Sweden's relatively stable society, having a domestic nuclear industry over which has complete control would make more sense than encouraging a potentially hazardous industry in a politically unstable neighboring country where it has little influence on safety standards and ultimately supply as well.

Yeah, you'd think wouldn't you? The anti nuclear bandwagon of the '80's generated a referendum which obliged the goverment to phase nuclear out. Ironic really, because with vastly improved safety it's beginning to look like an option.

Tell me though, how do you feel about ethanol. I was pro, then anti, now I'm just confused. Got any insights?

1045. Richard Dawkins Explains 'The God Delusion'

Comment #29057 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 12:42 pm

Your uncritical acceptance of the "half million people" canard, rejected as bunk even by the pacifist www.iraqbodycount.org, is certainly revealing when it comes to assessing your own ideologically conditioned preconceptions

Oooooh own goal, this really strips away the fluff and exposes the right wing extremist, and not a terribly subtle one at that. The numbers are certainly controversial, but can hardly be considered a "carnard" given that the British Government has implicitly endorsed them. Plus, I rounded down. My goodness I'm sounding practically middle of the road!!!

You see, we have this thing called the i.n.t.e.r.n.e.t. Simply saying things are so, can be very readily exposed. Cool huh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6495753.stm
http://www.stats.org/stories/the_science_ct_dead_oct17_06.htm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10276?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=dn10276

But lets not quibble over the lives of a few hundred thousand Iraqis. Lets accept the lowest figure you can possibly find. Some sixty thousand human beings are dead. What sort of critique should be tabled, and whom should it principly be directed at? Take your time.

1046. Richard Dawkins Explains 'The God Delusion'

Comment #29042 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 10:14 am

Helian, sure there is some anti-americanism knocking around the place, they just spent the last 3 years engaged in a deeply unpopular war which has resulted in the deaths of a half million people. They were also warned that it was a really bad idea, so yeah, a lot of people are pissed.

However this frustration hardly represents an existential threat to the continued existence of the US, and the idea of a co-ordinated media effort (man, do you know anything about the EU??) across dozens of countries smacks of "9/11 was an inside job" paranoia. So in effect all your efforts amount to protecting them, from at worst, a barrage of harsh language. Don't you have more important things to devote your time to?

Yet, as you point out in an earlier post, many Americans are still utterly ignorant of how angry people in Europe and elsewhere have become because of the actions of their government. Perhaps they should be less blissfully unaware in the future. Clearly we need to up the volume not back off.

A fraction of the planets population just can't simply thumb their noses at the rest of us and expect to be given a free pass, those days are long gone.

1047. Richard Dawkins Explains 'The God Delusion'

Comment #29031 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 8:54 am

Nothing in your laundry list of assertions can be considered hate mongering ...

Golly, and we thought you were evasive before!!!

Nuff said I think. Jonathan seems to have done a spectacular job of cooking your goose, and further commentary from me would simply detract from his eloquence.

1048. A History of Violence

Comment #29025 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 8:31 am

This article is about how and why the whole of human history testifies to a decline in the acceptability of violence. It's a good read. I recommend it.

Whats with the thought police? It is a good read, and Pinker had a bit of a go at religion himself in it, so steady on there George.

Though, I take your point. Myself, I reckon the inate empathy we have for each other is extending in ever wider circles of inclusion. Thus our willingness to visit horror and death on people half a world away is markedly reduced. Unless you're an American that is ... SORRY, sorry ok ... just joking. Ha, ha .. hah ... ha?

1049. How Many Scientists?

Comment #29022 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 8:16 am

The solar printing idea sounds quite intriguing. This would be one of the quantum leaps with regards to solar power that should sell itself, if it works as advertised. Once again, I did not mean to insult you. JCW

The honour impugned comment was purely tounge in cheek:-) and I conceed I may have underestimated your level of research on the subject, but in fairness, you didn't give me much to go on.

Sweden is trying to wean itself off nuclear and ironically imports a lot of it's electricity from the former "Ost Block", so anything done to reduce that is positive.

As regards the smog. If you burn seasoned birch in a modern contura, it produces almost no visible smoke at all, and it takes only two 60 minute firings, burning about 2.5 Kg of wood to keep the house at about 20-25 degrees between 06:00 - 22:00. Thats if it's warmer than -5 outside. From -20 to -5, you need a midday firing. A well insulated open plan house, in a semi urban area, using a modern wood stove running at about 80% efficency is very, very, very hard to beat.

I agree with you that the playing field must be levelled, which is why tax subsidies, credits or something are almost unavoidable!! Most technology is incremental and solar, wind, wave whatever are having a terrible time competing against oil, gas and coal that have spent the last 150 years building an unassailable commercial citadel of infrastructure. We must factor into the cost the damage that a given energy source does, at the moment this is simply ignored.

Before going for the wood stove, I took a very serious look at solar and wind, especially wind. Man that broke my heart, private wind is a tough nut to crack. I really wanted a wind power generator, but the reliability and ROI simply doesn't stack up:-( Of everything I saw, that company I flagged is the most exciting. I'll be watching them closely.

1050. Richard Dawkins Explains 'The God Delusion'

Comment #29003 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 1, 2007 at 6:20 am

Helian, it just seems to me that your considerable intelligence would be better served arguing for the protection of Iraqis, or improved global governance, or any of dozen different causes where the need is acute.

Yet you seem to be so keen to protect those best able to protect themselves!! Thats sort of odd I think.

I note you studiously avoid answering my question about what you think qualifies as hate speech. That strikes me as evasive. Have you nothing critical to say about American policy, is every facet of american conduct in Iran, Iraq, Nicaragua and Vietnam without reproach? If not, what do you consider a reasonable tone to critique the americans with, and if they ride roughshod over that critique what then?

If yes, if you consider American actions are blameless in the cases I've outlined, well then surely we must dismiss your comments as hopelessly subjective. So help us out.