1151. Diamonds unlock secrets of early Earth

Comment #65382 by Philip1978 on August 24, 2007 at 1:50 am

Yorker, this is not the work of Satan, don't be daft man...everybody knows its the Flying Spaghetti Monster that messes up the dating process!!

This is fascinating, I really enjoy hearing stories like this, it gives me hope when I hear scientists are doing something worthwhile and interesting instead of pratting around creating non existent gods. Bravo chaps, keep up the good work!

Philip

1152. CNN Request for 'I-Reports' on religion

Comment #65163 by Philip1978 on August 23, 2007 at 4:29 am

Steveroot,
Thank you very much, very kind of you!

Thanks for the link, oh the irony if I was related! I think the only connection is that we studied history! (Both of us made it up as we went along hahahahaha!)

I loved this quote

"Not the storyteller that the Yahwist was, the Priestly writer is more interested in discerning order and structure in God's plan for the world."

Thanks for the laugh!

Philip

1153. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #65155 by Philip1978 on August 23, 2007 at 3:32 am

Dianelos

Oops, I made you write another essay heheheheheh mwhahahahaha etc

My sincere apologies for bringing Hilary into this, I hope you can forgive me one day hehehhehe!

"If Bobby Henderson would describe what "Flying Spaghetti Monster" refers to and why it is reasonable to believe that it is the deepest structure of reality then I can compare his idea to mine and see which works better ;-)"

*Philip sends and email to Bobby, Quick, here is your chance!!*


I think I will explain myself a bit better, I seem to have gone off on one of my frequent tangents and am likely to do so again,if it all gets too much I recommend Tea!


Ok, the FSM, my point was that it is fantastically easy for Bobby or anyone else to make the FSM more real to the same level as your God. Despite Bobby, a human having a laugh, being the creator of it all, it could so easily be made so much more convincing. I literally cannot see the difference with what you see as your God and someone else could see as the FSM. Its an FSM Created Experience just as much as it is a God Created one or as I would have it a HUMAN created experience.

I am not upset at you I promise, I think confused is a better word, upset would mean I am getting angry or think you are stupid and I refuse to go that way, its not nice! hehehe

I get really confused by how God does things, I have absolutely no concept of a God at all, it simply causes me to ask too many questions over and over again, mostly the usual ones of how the heck He got there, what He does and how do you prove it?

Why then do I accept normality? Good question, will have a stab at it! I absolutely do not think for one iota of a ghost of a scintilla of a second think that I have all the answers to this weird thing we call life. I accept a heck of a lot, I really do and I understand your reasoning that I seem to accept naturalism as the de facto be and end all meaning of it all. I also accept the brain is a weird computer capable of the most amazing feats of intelligence and also weirdness, look at Roger Shepard's "Turning the Tables" illusion( I can't explain this any better than nicking this from the Sam Harris/Andrew Sullivan post from ages ago)

http://richarddawkins.net/article,536,God-Is-Not-a-Moderate,Sam-Harris-and-Andrew-Sullivan-Beliefnetcom#022007)

If taken at face value those tables are a different size, but if investigated properly then the reality is that much less weird. Sam sums it up very well "

"The fact is that our intuitions are not always a reliable guide to the truth; and in certain situations, they can be relied upon to be wrong."


I accept this, I am not in full control of my reality as my brain would have it! But surely it makes sense to measure those tables? If they were not measured or tested in this way then the truth will not be found. This is why I tend to accept the naturalist version of things a lot more than the Theistic version. If I could find some truth in a God I would be happy to accept it, really I would, but I cannot grasp God like I can measuring those tables.

Does that make any sense at all?

Philip

1154. CNN Request for 'I-Reports' on religion

Comment #65120 by Philip1978 on August 23, 2007 at 12:25 am

I sent this off, thanks CruciFiction, I hope that helps

I am an Atheist and have no belief in any god or the supernatural as I am convinced that it is psychological torture and mental slavery. I do not hate religion, I simply don't understand why anyone would want to delude themselves in such a way as to anthropomorphise the invisible and and highly improbable in order to feel safe in the world.

This is a beautiful planet, outstanding galaxy and a mind blowing universe, I don't need to insert a god into it to make it any better and it is preposterous to assert that there is based on the Universe and its contents being here.

Human beings created their gods, not the other way around. I think its barbaric what religion has done to the world and I am convinced it is one of the biggest causes of fear and misery in this world. I mentioned psychological torture and mental slavery above and this is what it is. The firm belief that your prayers will, will not or might be answered, the promise of eternal bliss or damnation depending on whether the impossible rules and regulations demanded from the religion can be followed. The promise that the religion that is followed is the right one and all the others are wrong and in certain cases it is necessary to die or kill for it. The notion that if something or someone is "Holy" it makes them important enough for their impossible doctrines must be adhered to, even if it means the death and suffering of others. The notion that despite further evidence to suggest otherwise, faith is always going to be right and the proper facts wrong. I want none of this.

I am a happy and enthusiastic man with a love of life and people, I will help all I can those who need it, not because I want to curry favour with a god, its because I simply care. I will continue to question, I want to learn new things and to accept when I am wrong, I will continue to raise awareness of the damages of religion to encourage people to live and get the most out of the precious time we have on this amazing planet.

Thank you for your time,
Philip Priestley

1155. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #64847 by Philip1978 on August 22, 2007 at 4:20 am

Lee

I think I can just imagine it, here is my take on it, this has just been made up on the spot but here goes

It is well known that certain alcoholic drinks, when poured into the wrong type of metal container, have a chemical reaction which renders the drinker in a dead-like manner. It happened in medieval times so it could have happened in the early days of AD! So, the eclipse happens in the middle of someone being crucified and everybody is going mad cos they don't know what it is. Lets say the chap getting crucified was a popular chap and his mates had gone off just before the eclipse to have a drink in his name and end up drinking the wrong alcoholic drink in the wrong cup. When it finally arrives and they happen to wake up feeling pretty dreadful and start than long walk home (you know how it is after a few jars!) People who see them stumbling along think its the dead risen from the grave at a time when its dark etc.

Some guy, lets call him Matthew, hears about this and thinks, cor, thats a great yarn, could do with a bit of spice...

Hows that?

Philip

Heavy Metal music causes most who listen to it to "Mosh" thus shaking off any God rays that are bombarding them!

1156. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #64826 by Philip1978 on August 22, 2007 at 2:04 am

Dianelos,

HA! got ya posting again you old rascal!!


I was under the impression that gravity can be tested by hurling a ball in the air, now I am under the impression that according to Newton and heaps of other scientists who have debated this, that ball is going to come back down to Earth. Electrons too have been debated and mucked about with so much that I think its existence has some evidence backing it all up and hence my computer is working today!

(I see BMMcArdle has been playing with Douglas's TV set, its not a magic picture box you fool, its the little men running around inside it making it work!!)

Gods, they are completely different, I have seen on another thread something highly interesting and I want to share it here, this was cut and pasted from http://www.christianfaithandreason.com/mcdurmon.html

"Rather, in a God-created universe, there can be nothing but evidence for the existence of God. Such a universe - and I believe this is such a universe - declares God's existence and His glory at every turn."

I think this is something highly similar to the responses I have received from all the religious people on this site. God is untouchable to jonny human, he is beyond thought, sight, imagination etc He simply IS. Somehow gods are beyond science and are a thing unto themselves that nobody could possible even get close to describing what that god is or does.

If you want an explanation of Electrons or Gravity, I can bet there is someone on this site who could give you an amazing explanation. All you would have to say after that is something like, well God is behind it all, he is the "IT" that makes an electron an electron. Or something similar and I think I will get answer along the lines of I have got all this wrong as well.

I have mentioned time and again how this line of reasoning baffles me to the core, when all evidence suggests that gods are impossible and improbable the answer back is like the above, God is simply God, He does it, He did it.

Lets look at the above quote, I could apply that to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I know full well that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a creation of the mind of an American gentleman by the name of Bobby Henderson who was/is a student at Kansas University. He created the Flying Spaghetti Monster because he was arguing against the teaching Intelligent Design in his Physics class. Now, look at your line of reasoning, and Paul's for that matter, and see that I can use your same arguments for proving that His Nooodlyness could still exist. You could say to me "but Philip, it was made up by this man etc" and all I would have to say back is "How could you know when you do not think along the right Nooodly lines!" The Spaghetti Monster is real because the Universe proves it so, he is beyond science and microscope and human imagination. He is all those and much more etc etc

So you will have to understand that I still think you and Paul are acting a bit like Douglas's TV guy, "Ok I know how the TV works, but surely there HAVE to be a few little men running around or how would the TV work?!"

Hence my complete incomprehension of why you guys believe what you do, I don't understand what you mean when you claim Theism has some amazing knowledge or power stored in it that circumvents the normal world. I just watched Hilary Clinton respond when asked what she thought her personal god was up to at the time of Hurricane Katrina etc and she gave the most hideous response along the lines of not questioning the wisdom of her god and that she simply gets by through the power of prayer. This is precisely what I am talking about, God seems to be involved in EVERYTHING and yet religious people feel they are not worthy or unable to question the wisdom of their god. God has a wise plan for us all and nobody is able to question it, why? because you just can't Philip, now stop being silly! Every time I hear this my automatic reaction is why must it be so impossible to question your god and get an answer? Impossible rules and answers and no questioning it because god is beyond it all , whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?????? I need more TEA!

Oh well, his Noodlyness moves in mysterious ways!

Cheers,
Philip Priestley (No relation to Jason I promise hehehehe!)

1157. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #64630 by Philip1978 on August 21, 2007 at 4:02 am

Lee,

I know exactly what you are talking about, I too want a non-christian to pop up somewhere from that part of history and say "Yes, this Jesus chap was walking on the water the other day plus he raised that other chap from the dead, jolly nice of him, I say, has breakfast tea been invented yet?" (Sorry, my Hebrew is a little rusty these days so I gave my character and English voice! hehehe)

So far my investigations have brought up nothing to make me thing that there is any truth in the story, though I still have a lot to wade through. All the sources I have read so far have all been doctored or so completely vague that I still cannot find a historical document.

Further more since I don't have a religious bone in my body, like you, the moment I start reading anything in the Bible, automatically questions pop up despite my efforts to let the Jesus or God character exist or do the things they do. I start asking stuff from the ridiculous to the confused. Did Jesus really have smelly feet that he needed so much expensive oil to wash them in? Where did Cain's wife come from? Why did Jesus send a herd of pigs off on a marathon to go and jump of a cliff? Why must I go kill people who tell me there are other Gods? None of it makes any sense to me apart from looking at it as a guide book to how they thought around 2000 or so years ago. Like the Iliad, it makes more sense to me to enjoy it as a story and not believe it.

More TEA, I needs it, I wants it, the precious TEA!
Philip

I saw Maiden last year, they were amazing!

1158. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #64599 by Philip1978 on August 21, 2007 at 1:34 am

Paul,

I could very well be a hyper intelligent shade of the colour blue and not the mild manner looney you see in my photo!


However, since I am quoting Douglas Adams here I will go with one of his theories about the universe "Anything that happens, happens". Taking everything at it simplest explanation rather than making up any more unnecessary complications. I can imagine all sorts of things about the universe, considering just how vivid my imagination can be we are going to need a few galaxies worth! But the simplest and most truthful explanation is that you are typing to a 29 year old English lunatic with dark brown hair and no definite eye colour- they have been known to change during the day from green to blue and to grey!

I posted on the artificial life thread a, (hopefully!) harmless, joke to dear old Bizzaro Dawkins about how humans have created their gods and are now about to create artificial life. I told him that should he need evidence of a designer he should look no further than a human being. Thing is, joking aside, there is a lot of truth in that statement. Gods have risen and fallen in the minds of humans for a heck of a long time now and it confuses me as to how then people can still be creating them now. I can understand in back in the past where knowledge was nowhere near what it is now that the idea of a god interfering with things must have been highly plausible. But now, knowledge is increasing to the point where gods are getting smaller and smaller, the need for them to help explain things simply isn't required.

I myself cannot see any reason to have a god do anything that normality cannot explain, so I don't have all the answers but I rather think that's more fun. Gods are fun in a way, the Greek gods from the Trojan War (If that ever took place of course!) interest me greatly. I love the stories of the Norse gods, brilliant stuff, nice and exciting however impossible it all is. I even like the idea of your god, whatever it is he does, sounds like fun but I cannot for the life of me want to believe in it. Because it is an illusion, it cannot be tested, talked to, touched, seen or heard. I dont like the idea of imagining hearing voices in my head claiming to be a deity. I don't want the ominous task of actually working out precisely what he/she/it wants because it is so impossible it not worth it. I don't want to rely on it and ask it to help me with situations because the Yes, No or Maybe answer back makes it so frustratingly odd. Finding out which is the right god to believe in as well also makes the task of faith just so incomprehensibly difficult.

Oh well, essay over, hope you enjoyed it, may the Force be with you, I will catch you later!
Philip

1159. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #64510 by Philip1978 on August 20, 2007 at 10:24 am

Paul,

"So, what do you do? To them, the Bible is an important part of their faith, and their faith is something that makes them better people. Phil's post (1849) 'How is doing good on the behalf of the invisible and highly improbable better living?' misses the point. Most Christians I know try hard to be more honest, less selfish and basically live with greater integrity. And it's not about trying to avoid hell either - Christians believe it was Jesus' sacrifice that put everything right, not anything that we can do."


Where did I miss the point exactly?

Have you seen the film Good Will Hunting? there is a lovely part where Robin Williams asks Mat Damon's character who his soul mates are and Mat reels off a list of poets and philosophers. Robin then makes a lovely point about all those people being dead and its a bit of a one way conversation.

That is exactly the same with any god anyone wishes to magic into existence, you can't know what god thinks of you other than how you imagine what He thinks. I really don't see how it can be done. How could you possibly know what the highly improbable and invisible could possibly want without making it up?

Going to the Bible for references is not a good idea because first you have to find the right translation. Look at how many times it has been changed and altered by people who thought they were "doing God's will" to the point where actually getting the "word of God" right seems a fruitless task. Yes there are beautiful passages locked away in there but there are also some barbaric and disgusting ones as well. Slavery, rape, killing children, the notion of hell, Jesus having no historical evidence to back up all the miracles he is supposed to have performed or him ever existing at all...the list goeth on!

I sound like I am frothing a bit here but I just can't explain religion any other way than that it is perpetuating a lie. I don't like the idea that Jesus is supposed to have died for people's sins, V's post summed it up fantastically about just how odd that whole thing is. I am convinced Jesus never existed and to hear that people think that they should base their lives around the dying of a non-existent character in a highly ambiguous book just baffles me.

I don't understand religion because I have never believed, I questioned too much too early in life to let it become any part of my life. A lot of people on here have experienced god in some way shape or form because they questioned things as they began to realise the parts in their religion that did not add up, something was wrong and it could not be answered in any other way than, this can't be true. I just wanted you to get an idea of how difficult religion is for me having never experienced it and why I sound like I froth a bit. now and then. I honestly don't think badly of you, you sound like a marvelous chap and I enjoy reading your posts. I came on this site to learn things, not to blast away at people's characters :) I just think very badly of religion, I think it is psychological torture and I can never see how it could be justified as a way of life.

Oh dear, what a rant, breathe Philip, breathe! More Tea!!

Cheers

Philip

1160. Artificial Life Likely in 3 to 10 Years

Comment #64411 by Philip1978 on August 20, 2007 at 2:53 am

Biz,

Humans created their gods, humans are possibly about to create artificial life,if you are looking for a designer look no further than human beings!

Philip

1161. The age of endarkenment

Comment #64391 by Philip1978 on August 20, 2007 at 12:35 am

Cartomancer, you must take TEA with you in those situations, how else are you going to think properly?! hehehe

This is a frightening article, I have no time for medical nonsense especially when people's lives are at stake. I now refer to religion as psychological torture, this also has fallen into the same boat as far as I am concerned. This pathetic promise of things being better with the "drug" or "faith" being there to help rather than up to date peer reviewed medicine (Ok even that is nowhere near perfect but at least the promise is a better one)

You can see this sort of rubbish in Professor Dawkins's new program, my favourite was the group of Dowsers who failed to find the water. I think this is the perfect demonstration of "faith" at work. First when their supposed powers are proved beyond all doubt they are aghast, they get depressed and left in shock for a few minutes. then they begin to make things up like "oh but I usually stand on a raised platform when I do this and that's how I find water, they wouldn't let me do that and so that's why it didn't work!" Faith restored, madness resumes.

This is the same for the magic herb crowd, oh but I wasn't standing on my head with luminous underpants on so that's why I don't feel better! Nobody ever questions the actual cause of the problem, the medicine itself unless of course it has been properly peer reviewed in which case if the drug is later found to be a lie or is harmful then the company in question can be sued. But the magic herbs, they get a full government backing and everything they need to make money and lie to people... I can see something wrong here, I just can't put my finger on it...

Ah well, at least I have the Tea of Quetz to ward off all ills, woo hoo! :)

Cheers,

Philip

1162. The Pentagon Sends Messengers of Apocalypse to Convert Soldiers in Iraq

Comment #64022 by Philip1978 on August 17, 2007 at 10:11 am

Careful there Dr Benway, thats Satan making you say that...well according to Stephen Baldwin from his book The Unusual Suspects, I got this from http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/10/09/baldwin/


"The Unusual Suspect" features an open letter to Bono, lambasting him for lobbying for debt relief for developing countries instead of preaching the gospel on MTV. Bono must be in league with Satan, whom Baldwin spends a lot of time thinking about. "I am smart enough to know that Satan is alive and well today," he writes. "Satan has all kinds of power, and he is able to control the minds of anyone whose mind isn't controlled by God."

This guy is cultural adviser to Bush for crying out loud! What a looney!

Philip

1163. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #63998 by Philip1978 on August 17, 2007 at 8:02 am

"Theists tend to be committed to living better, less selfish lives"

How is doing good on the behalf of the invisible and highly improbable better living? Knowing what each god wants is the definition of futility and ambiguity, how do you know if you got it right or wrong? Imagine you did something in Odin's name that you thought was good and then finding out Zeus is really hacked off with you because you should have done it for him!

Personally I think god has nothing to do with it and behaviour is unique to the individual, a god is really not needed to explain anything that goes on because it can happen just as well without one. I am baffled as to why its important to have a god involved in good or bad behaviour, the rules are so far fetched as to what the level of involvement of the deity is.

Life is complicated enough without adding gods to into it all, personally I think its psychologically damaging to the individual who thinks that they have done something wrong in the name of their god. Let me give you an example

Lets say I suddenly think that one of my actions has insulted or offended my girlfriend. I then worry that she will be angry with me or never forgive me, I could let my imagination go nuts if I wanted to. But I don't actually know until I ask her do I? I can then talk directly to her and she can tell me if anything is wrong and we can sort it out.

How do you rectify it with a god? There you are sweating away that you will go to hell or get punished somehow and there is no direct link to god apart from your imagination. I can know the mind of my girlfriend (well, kind of!hehehe!), I cannot know the mind of a god. You don't and can't properly know with god if he/she/it is happy or sad with you and what their level of involvement will be in the matter.

I have heard it said that gods forgive but how can you prove it beyond as much doubt as it would be with a real human being? Humans will let you know when you have buggered up, gods are rubbish at it!

So why bother with god when humans are much more communicative and honest?

cheers, Philip

1164. The Out Campaign: Interview with Josh Timonen

Comment #63975 by Philip1978 on August 17, 2007 at 5:49 am

Josh,

Thank you so much, I too appreciate all the hard work you do. Thanks to your site I have managed to type to some amazing people and I keep learning something all the time. Keep up the good work!

Cheers!

Philip Priestley

1165. Interview with Richard Dawkins

Comment #63804 by Philip1978 on August 16, 2007 at 12:55 am

Darwin2
This is too easy watch this

"Yes, they present evidence but their evidence does not disprove the existence of Odin"

"I never expect to meet The Flying Spaghetti Monster. He is infinite. I am finite but I can appreciate Him through His magnificent creations"

How on Earth am I to back any of that up with evidence like that? How can you justify claiming that is evidence of your god when I can just as easily make the same statements as you can but with different gods. Humans make their gods, there are countless examples throughout the entirety of history, so please don't keep asserting that your god is any different from Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster


Anything that happens, happens- I will explain this further, you missed my point entirely. This is Occam's Razor, this is looking at something and choosing the most simple explanation over something more wildly complicated. God is too complicated to explain how things work when there are better and easier ones at hand. I am no scientist but the Anthropic principle is so much easier for me to understand than god to explain the origins of the universe. I advise you to go and read something like Bill Bryson's Brief History of Nearly Everything to get a grasp of just how fortunate you are to be here. For your god or Odin to have done all of this then requires an explanation of how they hell they got there in the first place, how do you create a god? Easy, get a human to do it in his or her mind.
I trust the tested and peer approved theories of many scientists so much more than I do the figments of people's over active imaginations simply because the figments of people's over active imaginations are not testable. The theory behind it is made up on the spot and can be anything you like because it doesn't require proof, just Faith. You can morph your god into anything you like, nothing is impossible. The Anthropic principle doesn't speak to me, doesn't tell me how to live my life or do things in ITS name, it very simply explains how I got to be here. Now, if there was evidence to suggest otherwise, that was tested and approved by many scientists and worked then I would be happy to change my mind in face of new facts. I can bet my life that you are in no position whatsoever to change your mind in the face of all the evidence that disproves your god. If God, Allah, Odin, Thor or any of the others pitch up one day and provide evidence of their existence and how they manipulate the goings on of the universe, then fine, they have my attention. Until then, I don't think I will give the invisible, highly improbable figments of imagination any credibility at all.

Right, I need more Tea, catch you later,

Philip

1166. Interview with Richard Dawkins

Comment #63630 by Philip1978 on August 15, 2007 at 6:14 am

Darwin2

I dont know if you are married but imagine this,
if I said someone was sleeping with your wife, just like that would you believe me? Or would you ask for more evidence to prove your wife was not sleeping with another person. You would probably ask me to prove it, you would probably ask your wife or at least do some proper investigation to be able to call me a liar.

Does a policeman turn up at a crime scene and simply walk off, find someone who looks like they committed the crime and cart them off to jail? No, he looks at all available evidence like fingerprints, DNA samples, clothing, footprints etc Then using his intellect he goes around investigating what he has by asking questions, he asks several people for their versions of the crime. He basically does all the detecting he can because it is important to catch the right criminal and bring him to justice so that criminal cant commit more crimes. How far would he get if he said "Well, the devil did it and I KNOW he did"?
He would have to find evidence of the Devil himself before losing his job.

Now, you seem to be asserting that you know your god exists and that we are wrong for suggesting proper evidence is needed, I suggest you take a long hard look at what people are typing to you. They are backing up their statements with more than just wild assertions of invisible grandeur.

How do you know your god is God? Why not Zeus, the Spaghetti Monster, Allah, Baal, Odin? I have just as much evidence to suggest its them as you do your god if I use your line of reasoning.

Why not use Douglas Adams' statement "Anything that happens, happens", its reasonable and it involves simplicity without having to add gods to the event complicating it and letting it get wildly out of control.

I am not perfect, nothing is, life is just weird sometimes, I don't have all the answers but I don't want to invent an answer from the invisible and improbable side of life when a simpler version exists without it. I hope you understand this, you probably will ignore a lot of what I have said because you KNOW your god better than me but ask yourself where is he and how come he doesnt make his presence better known by simply proving to world he exist in a less complicated way?

kind regards,

Philip

1167. These preachers of hate must be exposed

Comment #63590 by Philip1978 on August 15, 2007 at 2:39 am

Corylus, thanks so much for the link, I intend to use that a bit more often now!

I have written the following to Theresa May, my MP

Following a recent article by Joan Smith from the Independent Newspaper I have decided to write to you concerning the decision to nearly take Channel 4 executives to court over their broadcast of their investigation into the Wahhabi influence in British mosques. Below are links to the article and the episode of Undercover Mosque and I have one question concerning the treatment of the Channel 4 executives in this matter. In the article it claims that the main charge against the executives were that the views and opinions of the clerics seen ranting away were "taken out of context". After watching the recording I would like you to think about just what conceivable context could possibly make the things said any less appalling? Further more I would like to know why such an ridiculous mess was made of the Racial and Religious Hatred bill in the first place.

I am worried about the fact that the present Labour government has done its best to make it increasingly difficult to criticise such religious extremism without being called a racist or Islamophobic.

I find that this soft approach just gives encouragement to the extremists knowing that they can get away with hateful incitement without fear of prosecution. Look at the case against Abu Hamza the Cleric from the Finsbury Park Mosque. Look at the special treatment he gets simply because of his religion, we are to respect this man's religion when he has been using it to advocate the destruction of the people that HAVE to respect his religious views. Why has the Labour government made it law that the wrong people are being criticised for speaking out against something so dangerous.


The Channel 4 Executives were being charged for inciting religious hatred when it is clear the true hatred was being preached by the extremists. Like all other faiths, Islam must be able to stand up to reasoned criticism just like the others. They should not be given any more special privilege than other faiths, if the criticism is true then it should be allowed to be mentioned without fear of arrest. I am all for living in a peaceful society and will contribute to it in any way I can but I don't see how this can be achieved if people like those in the documentary can escape criticism.

I am interested to hear your views on this and also what could possibly be done about it, thank you for your time,


Yours sincerely,

Philip Priestley

Below are the links I mentioned:


http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_m_z/joan_smith/article2861717.ece

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=

Oops, I may have made a mistake, this has not been made law yet has it? Oh well, will keep you all updated if I get a response

Philip

1168. These preachers of hate must be exposed

Comment #63392 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2007 at 4:26 am

David! Hope Bulgaria was fun and that you are well, how did it go?

One question, I took this quote from your website it says that the Free Church of Scotland

"...stands firmly in the tradition which accepts the Bible in its entirety as the Word of God and, therefore, derives its forms of teaching, worship, ministry and government from it."

I must conclude then that this includes Deuteronomy and if I am not mistaken that really isn't the nicest way of treating unbelievers is it? I am in no way going to compare you with the fundamentalist monsters that preach the above such maniacal hate. After all you have acknowledged the hatred of which they spout is evil in your post. My point though is the Bible does preach hate as much as it does have some reasonably friendly things.

I want to be careful here because I have noticed in the past whenever I have presented a discussion point you point out I make a few mistakes about your church and religion. I am merely going on the above statement off your site and the contents of the bible using Deuteronomy as an example. Please can you explain this, I would like to hear your opinion,
cheers,
Philip

1169. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #63377 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2007 at 3:30 am

Mark,

I also offer my deepest sympathies over the loss of your mother, I hope you will be ok.

The one major problem I have with prophesying anything is that absolutely ANYBODY could pick it up in the time frame predicted and do exactly what it asks.
The prophesies in the Bible are so vague and incomplete, look at how that prophesy about the "Nazarine" gets out of hand. This actually refers to Samson and not Jesus but Matthew still manages to twist it to make it look like true prophesy and that Jesus grew up there despite there being evidence to the contrary. Since there is no evidence to prove Jesus grew up in Nazareth other than the Bible could it possibly be the prophesy is wrong? Or is Matthew not talking about the messiah and he is a very naughty boy!

take care,

Philip

1170. Amnesty to defy Catholic church over rape victims' abortion rights

Comment #63137 by Philip1978 on August 13, 2007 at 8:09 am

Tigerbalm

I really hope you dont actually believe what you typed below:

"C'mon all you bleeding hearts, tell me what is the point of expressing all your oh-so-righteous, sad indignation over just one thing like this, given our bloody history"


"Man is a killing and raping machine, no doubt about it, and our big brain has just made us better at it. What a sorry lot we are! The planet really would be better off without us.

I was expressing my total disgust with this complete lack of thought and compassion for women who have been raped. If my concern for a friend who I love to the ends of this Earth earns me the title of bleeding heart then fine, so be it,its the least I can do for her after what she went through.

Please can you at least think about what you are saying because I really don't approve of what you wrote, I get the impression you don't know what you are talking about.

Philip

1171. Amnesty to defy Catholic church over rape victims' abortion rights

Comment #63081 by Philip1978 on August 13, 2007 at 4:38 am

V
You have no reason to apologise, I agree with everyone here, this is another example of how disgusting and pathetic the Vatican is.

Rape is something I cannot come to terms with, my friend was once raped and I really have to control my temper when I hear these abhorrent statements from the church. There are not words to describe how grateful I am to AI for helping to speak out about this and I hope it raises more awareness to the cruelty and brutality of rape itself. The Vatican has much to learn, I hope they realise that one day and stop psychologically terrorising people with their lies and barbarism.

I will stop now before the words get too out of hand,

Philip

1172. The Out Campaign

Comment #63070 by Philip1978 on August 13, 2007 at 4:10 am

epeeist

You are absolutely right, it is going to take a lot of brave people to change anything in the face of such fanaticism. Thing is I can see the Christian Right in America being stopped and possibly reasoned with to a minutely small degree, Islamic Fundamentalism doesn't tolerate criticism at all. It saddens me that when people in those countries do start speaking out they will be killed without hesitation. Speaking out against it in a foreign country means their words can be censored, the population would be told a different story and that worries me as well.

I wonder if it will end or change at all?

Philip

1173. The Out Campaign

Comment #63060 by Philip1978 on August 13, 2007 at 3:31 am

Sorry guys,

I get bored waiting for David to reply to my messages, I will keep the chat to a minimum in the future,

Philip

1174. The Out Campaign

Comment #63048 by Philip1978 on August 13, 2007 at 2:51 am

V + Northern Monkey

My sincere apologies, I only sent that link cos it was the pub I was in, all over England we have some incredible buildings that are still standing and if I offended the Northern Monkey it was not my intention!

Philip (A.K.A Southern Jessie!)

1175. The Out Campaign

Comment #63026 by Philip1978 on August 13, 2007 at 12:31 am

Yippiee! I had a great time and many good Ales were drunk plus I managed to eat the largest Cod and Chips known to humanity. To top it off my friends gave me a birthday card with "I am 2" on it complete with badge that said the same. I did giggle when I got asked for ID in the pub we went in after hehehhehe!

I have travelled from Cairns down to Sydney and then hopped over to Perth for a bit and I loved it all. Its a beautiful country, even if the buildings are not that old the land is ancient and I was very impressed.

Most old buildings like the pub I went to still have original parts to them but sometimes are maintained by modern brick work just to keep the standing plus various kings and queens liked to add parts during the centuries in keeping with the architecture of the time. Then again some of the brickwork was so good they seem to have stood the rigours of time very well. Most maintenance is done by the trusts who own the buildings, the money they make by using them as tourist attractions helps with the upkeep and sometimes the government chips in to keep them going as well. There is a link below to the pub I went to just to give you an idea of what it was like.


http://www.lovetoeatandtravel.com/Site/Intl/London/Food/royal_standard.htm

Ahh back to work after a week off, over 500 emails to go through, this should be an interesting day!
Cheers,
Philip

1176. The Out Campaign

Comment #62603 by Philip1978 on August 10, 2007 at 9:33 am

V
Cheers tons for the Happy Birthday! :)

All the people who I have chatted to on here who used to be religious but are now not have helped me brilliantly to get to understand how and why people are religious and (thank Quetz!) I never have had to go through what they have done

I completely agree with you, why cling on to it? What is the benefit of what Billy very cleverly referred to as mental slavery?

I too am a hulking great fan of the stories, the Norse and Greek mythologies really have some good ones and I think there is a real heroic appeal to those religions. Like you say there is something personable about the Gods and I think it really suits the time periods which they covered. I think the more "modern" religious stories are a bit sissy in comparison, flying about on horses, teasing the Rwomans (No Romans, STWIKE HIM!) (Sorry, can't help it, love Monty Python!) into a bellicose stupor then the Rwomans adopting it all! The big story consists of the main Deity hurling his almighty weight around sending people off to eat apples or kill and destroy others. Then send his son on a suicide mission to repent for original sin that he set up, I mean that's pathetic! No, give me the hammers, lightning bolts, Quetz's humour and blessed Tea any day of the week!

I don't feel sorry for David, Biz, Devolved, Fides etc its their choice, they know the alternatives, they know what they are up against. Religion, as Mr Hitchen's so brilliantly put it is "presenting a false picture of the world to the innocent and the credulous" by "the imposition of impossible tasks and rules". I love that chapter in his book and for me it sums up what I have been saying to David about the psychological mess people can inflict upon other and themselves because of their religion. They are being cruel in perpetuating a lie that is of no use to anyone in this day and age and I wish religion wouldn't do that to people. I am by no means perfect and neither do I want to sound it or be it, I would rather have my imperfections and get on with it. I agree with Penn Jillette the Magician, asking the invisible for the highly improbable doesn't sound like fun to me, just do the best I can and see if I can make people happy along the way, I don't think thats too bad!

Saturn return, interesting! This "properly realised adult" you speak of, what is one of those exactly?!

Right, I am off to one of the oldest pubs in England (there may be other pubs that are older but I think this one is pretty ancient) tonight, around before 1066 from what I have been told. This was when the idea of a public house was for women, Alewives, to make the beer themselves and then announce it to the locals by hanging a green bush off a pole when it needed drinking. The "Public House" was the house in which the locals used to congregate to get most inebriated, think I might do the same!

Here's to Quetz!
Cheers to you all!
Philip

1177. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #62318 by Philip1978 on August 9, 2007 at 8:56 am

I fear not the Wrath of Mark of the Tauntons with you as my god Quetz!

To quote from Marilyn Manson, a good god is hard to find! My witnessing is my thanks to You and the Prophet Billy for all the hard work being done by your good selves on our behalf!

I am off to the public house tonight, I will raise a glass of ale in your names, plus possibly tell a few of the patrons as well just for good measure!

Cheers!

Philip

1178. The Out Campaign

Comment #62313 by Philip1978 on August 9, 2007 at 8:40 am

SRWB

(Philip pauses briefly after over-exuberant playful dash around the room barking "I'm 29!" :P)

Douglas Adams kindly helped me out with the whole "Anything that happens, happens" philosophy I learned many years ago. Now that I know what Occam's Razor is I suggest the religious go take Douglas's phrase and go shave with it!

Keep up the good work!

(Philip returns to bounding around the room!)

1179. The Out Campaign

Comment #62243 by Philip1978 on August 9, 2007 at 3:43 am

Wow, I have heard of time flying as you get older but this is getting weird! Mid 30s by next week? Not with the Tea of Quetz by my side!

I think possibly one of my, I cant really call it a weakness per se but the word will do until I can think of a better one is that I, like Veronique ( I hope I am right here Veronique, please forgive me if I read the other posts of yours wrong!) have no concept of what god/gods is/are at all (Asides of course from my knowledge of Quetz, I am talking about the imaginary gods!). Even before my realisation at 8 years old that prayer does not work I really didn't have anything that could be described as "Faith". I think sometimes I frustrate people like David, Biz, Devolved et all is because I keep pestering them on the basics of their belief, I keep mentioning Gods in the plural sense or refer to their own particular god because of my own total bafflement as to what exactly is it that makes them think that there is some glitch in human perception and understanding that means god/gods can exist.

Then applying that to the suffering I have seen and had to deal with in my life I have simply found that the glitch in my perceptions or lack of understanding of people's god is simply not necessary. My automatic response is to do what I can to help stop it in the best way I can and I get a bit weirded out when people can then say "ahh, see Philip, god pre-determined that you would do that!" How would I know what that means apart from it being completely superfluous to my desire to help?

Ah well, make Tea and no other gods than Quetz and the world will be fine!
Philip

1180. The Out Campaign

Comment #62223 by Philip1978 on August 9, 2007 at 1:04 am

Ahoy all!

Cheers tons for the birthday wishes, I appreciate it tons

Well, now I am 29 I am sure I am soooo much wiser than I was on Monday when I was 28!!

J and Billy, cheers for those responses, it must have been a hard struggle coming up with that! I think I understand a bit more about how people can reconcile with themselves over loss and tragedy, however the way you describe God having this magnificent plan still makes me think he is a complete ****!

The main reason I actually want to hear David's response is because I want him to explain his religion to me. Too many times in the past I have posed various questions and arguments his way and each time I have got something wrong, that his religion or God would not do/say or has ever done whatever it is I have questioned. I think I have explained well enough why I am an atheist, though should he wish to ask or question it I encourage it.

Cheers tons,
Philip

1181. New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'

Comment #61640 by Philip1978 on August 6, 2007 at 4:16 am

Professor Dawkins, I look forward to watching this a lot, I am glad you are speaking out against it

dr in the house
I find it reprehensible that you have to explain all that in the first place, it would be so much better if you only had to offer alternative treatments that worked as well as what is in place now.

Can anyone tell me if Lavender oil does anything other than stink? My mother is convinced it helps aid the healing of bruising and I am convinced it does no such thing but smell bloody awful, is there any truth to my mother's claims? She works in a Doctor's surgery, she has no belief in the supernatural what so ever, but thinks Lavender Oil is the way forward. I just am interested to know if I am right so I can laugh about it with her,

Philip

1182. The Out Campaign

Comment #61627 by Philip1978 on August 6, 2007 at 3:33 am

David,
I think we need to sort something out first before I go any further, I have noticed a pattern in our discussions and I want to correct this now

I constantly seem to be getting your particular religion wrong at every turn and I would at least like to question and discuss what you do believe in rather than discussing what you don't.

The bit that really confuses me is that you have said in previous posts that you read and believe in the teachings of the bible. I then thought because you read the Bible you would have acknowledged that in the Bible it does say that if you pray to God in Jesus's name your prayers will be answered. I find it strange that even you reject that and I would like to know why

I have read a little about The Free Church of Scotland but would really like you to outline or prod me in the right direction so I can at least have a discussion that involves me knowing which bits I should be aiming at rather than making the mistakes that I have so far.

Ok, I have had an idea, how about you give me a view of what happened to my friend in relation to what you believe and we can start from there. I have been questioning just what is God's role in all of this from the point of view of her religious beliefs and that I think she suffered more because of them. what is your take on the situation? I questioned that IF (I must use capitals here to show thats a massive IF for me!) God was real what was He doing whilst my friend was being beaten up and then ignoring her even more when she was really on the edge because she thought she had let God down in some peculiar way. I maintain that is psychological torture and that religion, no matter what form you take it in, is wrong to give people false hope and even more false delusions as to the will of their God.

So please, before I go any further I want to hear your take on the events, I want to know what you actually think happened with reference yo tour religious beliefs and we could discuss this properly, I think I would enjoy that more and it would possibly get us somewhere.

I look forward to your response,

Philip

1183. The Out Campaign

Comment #60950 by Philip1978 on August 3, 2007 at 7:04 am

Yorker,

All my gay friends have at some point in their lives had girlfriends during their school years but most of them knew they were gay very early on.

But I remember one of them really didn't know if he was gay or straight and went through years where he was gay and then straight again. I don't think of him as bisexual because he seemed really committed to each of his relationships It was not through pressure or lack of understanding from his family he just really didn't know what he wanted. Look what happened to Freddie Mercury, he loved his wife dearly and was gay but I wouldn't have called him bisexual, I could of course be wrong but it was something I read a while back, I just thought it sounded similar to what your brother is going through.

Philip

1184. The Out Campaign

Comment #60918 by Philip1978 on August 3, 2007 at 5:57 am

If Gawd opens 'is norf and starts yappin' 'bout knockin' back a few cheeky's i'll knock 'is jacobs off and get 'im out of my way innit!

1185. The Out Campaign

Comment #60914 by Philip1978 on August 3, 2007 at 5:47 am

Merci beaucoup, j'ira avoir un boisson dans votre nom Monsieur Baeoz!

1186. The Out Campaign

Comment #60903 by Philip1978 on August 3, 2007 at 5:28 am

Ah I see the mighty Quetz has got the Scottish gents speaking in tongues again!

Well, it being my birthday on Tuesday I thought I would go with my work colleagues down the battle cruiser tonight, I might go for an Aristotle of the most ping pong tiddly in the nuclear sub and see where it ends up, I don't know about you guys, I hope you aint staying in to watch the roger iron!

Philip

1187. The Out Campaign

Comment #60841 by Philip1978 on August 3, 2007 at 1:18 am

David,

Oh dear,

Age old argument? yes it is because nobody has gotten around to providing a decent answer yet and we are still waiting!

Score cheap points? Is that really what you think I am doing here? I have been nothing but polite so far and you hurl that at me? Fine, no bother!

I am not angry at god, I know he doesn't exist, I am dissatisfied with people like you ruining other people's psychological well being by scaring the crap out of them with tales of some non existent invisible tyrant who falls asleep on the job when needed!

You have completely and utterly missed my entire point and have responded with the most weak answer about God not interfering when it suits him. How on earth do you justify telling people the good Lord will save them if they pray and follow the bible and then spout crap about God having nothing to do with their misfortunes!

I am irritated by this whole stupid concept of that stinking lie in the bible, which you read and follow, that if you pray to God in Jesus's name all your prayers WILL come true. My friend prayed a lot and nothing happened so why tell people God is going to help them because the Bible says so and then tell me that...

"...The bottom line is that your friend suffered because someone beat her up – not God".

So which is it, the Bible being the truthful one and that ALL prayers will come true if you do it as commanded or that you are right and that God has bugger all to do with it? I am inclined to think you are right for once and God has bugger all to do with it


You cant give me a "simplistic formulaic answer", I never asked for one because nothing is simple in these situations. I, like you, have had to deal with some horrible events and getting people to come to terms with their hardships is no easy task. Its heart breaking, like I said I am not at all qualified to deal with half the stuff that I have had to, I had to make it up on the spot half the time but sometimes I have got people back on their feet again. I admire your desire to help people through difficult times, I really do, I just disagree with your using God to sort it out when I bet you are more than capable of handling it yourself without using God.

There may not be a simplistic formula but if you want to work it out without God, the sum suddenly seems a hell of a lot easier

Philip

1188. The Out Campaign

Comment #60557 by Philip1978 on August 2, 2007 at 8:17 am

Yorker,
Am awaiting email from a traveller who shares your love of organised holidays! Will let you know asap

Philip

1189. The Out Campaign

Comment #60548 by Philip1978 on August 2, 2007 at 7:47 am

Billy,
Do you want to go pick up the *#9566 or shall I?

No problem mighty Quetz, it will be done exactly as you &&~~%%88!

David, I have always argued that people can never actually do what their god asks them to because of the interpretation of the message, they can only guess it and is unique to each individual. It is so ambiguous it cannot be used as evidence to show that it is ACTUALLY their god speaking to them and not a warped version of their conscience. But in this case you cant argue that my God isn't real, here he is! His message is there for all to see with no dispute as to who wrote it and what he wants!
Philip

1190. The Out Campaign

Comment #60540 by Philip1978 on August 2, 2007 at 7:15 am

Yorker,
I have a couple of friends who have been on safari there and they loved it plus I know a man who could help, anything specific you need to know?

Praise be to Quetz and his multilingual Prophet!

1191. The Out Campaign

Comment #60473 by Philip1978 on August 2, 2007 at 2:52 am

David,

There are not words to describe just how disappointed I am with your answer, really I don't understand how your answer of "warm theology" could have possibly helped in that situation or indeed with other situations described by Billy or IrateAtheist.

Telling someone that God loves them after they have been through incredible torment like that I find horrifically disingenuous to say the least.

What exactly was God doing at the precise moment my friend was being beaten? How much did he really love her to let this man torment her and nearly ruin her? She prayed and prayed endlessly and got no answer or respite from the beatings, was she not asking correctly? Or is God a sadistic tyrant who takes great pleasure in all of this? How then is He supposed to offer "warm theology" after that? What is the point of saying that when God did nothing in the first place. Please explain to me again exactly what God's role in all this is?

I am not in a position to make that kind of judgement. However I do know that God will judge justly and fairly..

God's judgement, lets pretend he actually exists, is pretty bloody poor to me if the best he can do is let people be terrorised like this. Why did he not judge that the man beating this woman should have some revelation to sort himself out? Did it ever occur to him to perhaps incapacitate him in some way? Why didn't he show himself to this woman and give her proper guidance? She prayed to him as told to by her church and the Bible or are you going to tell me something about she didn't do it properly or didn't have enough faith?

I will tell you what cured her, it was love and help from friends who were there for her, time and her letting go of God. Once she let go of God the nightmares were easier to confront and she became a stronger person because of it.

I really am confused by the way you say that you agree with me but then deny that it has anything to do with your particular brand of faith. I am upset that you can't see why your comments are a hideous insult to the torment my friend, Billy's Friend, Irate's wife and countless others have gone through. You can see my point yet you do not act on it solely on the basis that you KNOW somehow that your religion/god/faith would not be capable of such atrocities. You think your version of it would have saved the day and righted it all yet the truth of the matter is your god IS doing this to people, your religion CAN cause this misery just like the plethora of other religions in this world. It seems to me to be perpetuating a lie, a lie which is causing untold and highly unnecessary psychological scarring and I want no part of it and neither should you

Sadly I don't think you will ever see it that way, it pities me greatly

Philip

1192. The Out Campaign

Comment #60163 by Philip1978 on August 1, 2007 at 7:32 am

Its tough being a deity isnt it, you ask people to have a nice cup of Tea completely of their choice, promising them it will be a nice cuppa and then people start swinging cats towards their backs!

1193. The Out Campaign

Comment #60147 by Philip1978 on August 1, 2007 at 6:11 am

Billy, if you read David's post we are all Atheist Tea drinkers! Besides, Christians could never be this happy, there is always the worry Yahweh would curse the Tea if they drank it on a Sunday or something equally stupid!

1194. The Out Campaign

Comment #60137 by Philip1978 on August 1, 2007 at 5:46 am

J
There is Tea for everyone, not just those you mention but ALL teas! Fear not the Lapsang Souchong for that is simply the drink of The Prophet Billy and is not from the Cess Pit of the Jorvik Centre that you speak of!
Lady Grey will be blessed for those who like Lady Grey, I myself am now an avid Assam fan, for that is my Way. One day you will find your Way, just give it time!
Philip

1195. The Out Campaign

Comment #60136 by Philip1978 on August 1, 2007 at 5:39 am

Prophet Billy, There be no need to pressure these people, The Message will soon get to them sooner or later.

I think that now we have put across The Message of good Tea in His name, people will drink it and then think of Quetz.

Even better, when sitting down for a fine cuppa and then seeing His armies of hybrid creatures wondering past, His greatness will be there for all to see,

Cheers to you Quetz,

Philip Priest(ley)

1196. The Out Campaign

Comment #60124 by Philip1978 on August 1, 2007 at 4:28 am

Cheers Billy,

J will soon see the light reflecting off His one and only Lab Coat that he gave unto thee.

J as High Priest of the Church of Quetz I offer you some blessed Tea that Quetz did send unto me in York, it is bloody good Tea as He commanded it should be.

I have just read the above post from He that is called Quetz, I wanted to add that this is an act of kindness because Tea is great!

Cheers
Philip

Philip

1197. The Out Campaign

Comment #60119 by Philip1978 on August 1, 2007 at 4:15 am

Billy wrote
" J
Nobody likes a teachers pet :-)"

I see nobody has noticed what David said about me in his post

*ducks*

1198. God-Fearing People: Why are we so scared of offending Muslims?

Comment #60114 by Philip1978 on August 1, 2007 at 3:22 am

I dug it TIE!

1199. God-Fearing People: Why are we so scared of offending Muslims?

Comment #60104 by Philip1978 on August 1, 2007 at 2:41 am

Have you read the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy?

I would actually compare them to the inhabitants of the planet Krikkit, when at last they achieved space capability they flew out side of the massive cloud that had encompassed their planet. Upon first witnessing the glory and splendor of the Universe, they casually, whimsically, decided to destroy it, remarking, "It'll have to go." So anything that wasn't Krikkit was declared war on.

This is I am afraid to say the exact mentality of Islamic Extremists, Religion has poisoned their minds to the point of xenophobic rage which cannot be extinguished. As Sam Harris points out in End of Faith, these guys are not like your Catholic or Jew who can cherry pick away at their religion to their heart's content. These people ACTUALLY believe it, totally and utterly through and through, no equivocation, no remorse. The Qu'ran has a multitude of passages and sentences that make the bible's Deuteronomy book look playful in comparison! Its all about burning, putting to the sword etc all those who oppose Islam or leave it, very very scary.
I know what you mean about what the heck drives these people into a massive frothing session, I would still advocate it being Islam, plain and simple as that
Silly sods
Philip

1200. God-Fearing People: Why are we so scared of offending Muslims?

Comment #60098 by Philip1978 on August 1, 2007 at 2:01 am

Itman,
Unfortunately it is everything to do with religious beliefs, I would say that is the first and foremost reason for all this ridiculous outrage. You have to remember that they work on the premise that the Qu'ran IS the inerrant word of their god. No ifs, not buts, that's it, cherry picking does not happen.

So everything they do is centred around the book being right and that the world needs to be Islamic because Islam is perfect. Look at what happens to apostates who leave the religion, look at what happened with those stupid cartoons, look at Salmon Rushdie, it all points to a direct outrage to their religion being ridiculed and they cant cope with it. Political issues etc are second in line to their Faith and the notion that the world should be Islamic and those who oppose it must die. That's the extremist view, the moderate view simply gives these maniacs a platform to stand on.
Sad isn't it
Philip