Comments by Wosret

Comment #271384 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 2:42 pm

8863. Comment #271377 by DarwinsPitbull

Got me. I think you're right here.

Though I will say that there is a lot of controversy surrounding those laws on account of the opinion that motivation should not be a relevant factor. One which I share.

1302. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271374 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 2:36 pm

8857. Comment #271367 by Titania

Yes, motivation is often taken into consideration for a judges or juries deliberations, but it is not relevant to the legality, or technicality of the court, and the law.

1303. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271368 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 2:30 pm

8853. Comment #271360 by root2squared

Dude... that is a police officer, which is yet another variable towards circumstances which speaks to the situation. The motivation is clearly not the defining factor is that situation. The fact that he is a police officer is.

Strawman. It could be an overriding. If it was not possible, then it would not make sense to talk about morality.

Stop squawking "straw-man" at me. What have I misunderstand?

"Straw man" means that I have misrepresented. You are calling me purposely dishonest when you do that, that is inflammatory, and by no means helps the mood of our discussion. If I have misunderstood, then please explain.

It could be an overriding, but I don't see how, and you haven't given a reason for why it in fact is.

1304. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271361 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 2:22 pm

8850. Comment #271355 by Bonzai

I agree that ethics are not so cut and dry, but I think that motivations for actions are of far less consequence, if any to ethics.

For numerous reasons. One being that they are ambiguous, as you point out, and often conflicting and numerous. Hard to pin down and examine for even the person in question, and perhaps impossible for anyone else.

They also themselves don't necessarily result in any negative actions, and distasteful motives for moral actions, I don't think invalidates those actions. So I don't think that distasteful motives for immoral actions should weigh any more heavily.

So, practicality, and the fact that good can be achieve through distasteful motives, where the good is not sullied.

1305. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271356 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 2:16 pm

8847. Comment #271346 by root2squared

That is the only possible motivation? I think not. Actions can have multiple motivations, if they are a factor then they all would have to be examined. They are not.

1306. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271352 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 2:12 pm

8846. Comment #271345 by root2squared

No. This is stupid or dishonest semantic wordplay because you do not have a valid argument. The motivation leads to the act which leads to the consequences. Sometimes the consequences may not be what you had intended. In such a case, it is the motivation that matters.

For example, if you kill a terrorist because you think he's dangerous, but you did not know that he had a bomb with him, then your action is morally justified. If you know that he has a bomb and if you kill him now, it would also kill a lot of innocent people around now, then it is not morally justified. Therefore motivation matters more.

This is absolute nonsense. If you kill someone you think is a terrorist because you think he is dangerous, and it turns out you were wrong. Then your motivation for killing the man will not save your from the murder sentence you will be soon enjoying.

Because you don't understand the difference between circumstances, consequences, and motivations, doesn't make them the same thing, and to point this out, a word game.

I gave you an example of it happening.

Firstly, you claimed that morality is an overriding of our genes, a single example of an action we might consider moral doing this by no means demonstrates this claim to be true, although you did not provide even a single example. You provided an example of an action that was not personally beneficial to you, not an action that prevented or circumvented the purposes of those genes that motivated the action.

1307. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271343 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 2:04 pm

8843. Comment #271340 by root2squared

That is circumstances, not motivation. Whether you're motivated because of fear, anger, or anything else is immaterial. The killer or be killed circumstance you are in is what justifies your actions, not your motivations for acting.

1308. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271318 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 1:36 pm

8837. Comment #271312 by Bonzai

This is again a case of circumstances, not motivation. Say the person is killing an old woman for the pleasure of it, or euthanizing an old woman for the pleasure of it. Then are these acts morally equivalent?

1309. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271316 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 1:32 pm

8834. Comment #271293 by root2squared

Also, the consequence in both cases is the same. The animal and the terrorist are dead. So what is the difference? It is the motivation which you said does not matter.

This is absurd. Clearly you must be killing the terrorist because of the consequences of what would happen if you did not. If you are killing them, and there would be no negative consequences if you did not, then clearly killing them indeed would be wrong.

Strawman. I never said everything we do is overriding our genes. I said the ability to override our genes means it makes sense for us to talk about morality.

Sigh...this is not a strawman. I am disagreeing that this is such a case. You quote Dawkins saying that we posses the ability, that does not mean that in this case (morality) this is what is happening. That needs to be demonstrated.

Again, I don't know what this has to do with the ability to override our genes and morality. Also what is an extra goal? An example is someone sending money to charity half way across the world. There is no benefit to self in terms of survival and propagation of genes. It may make the person feel better, but does not help in survival and propagation, which is the design of genes.

I didn't say that we didn't possess the ability. I said that I don't think this is such a case, so far you have given me absolutely no reason to suppose that it is.

Again, "overriding" is preventing or circumventing what those genes are for, not using them for an extra purpose.

1310. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271307 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 1:24 pm

8833. Comment #271282 by Bonzai

I don't think that motivation matters. In law it doesn't. Only actus reus (guilty act) and mens rea (guilty mind) does.

The former connotes the action of the crime. That you in fact did it. The latter, that you meant to do it. That is all, it doesn't matter why you meant to do it, or your motivation for doing. Merely that it was no accident. The outcome was your intention.

1311. Countdown: Palin Wants To Help Special Needs Kids By Doing Away With Science

Comment #271301 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Drosophilistinism

Yeah, I had no idea what that meant. I recognized "philistine".

1312. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271276 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 12:55 pm

8824. Comment #271257 by root2squared

You kill a terrorist with a different motivation than you kill an animal with. The act is the same - killing. By your logic, both are morally equivalent then.

I was perhaps not clear. Morality isn't some absolute authoritative prescriptive entity. It is a weighing of actions against consequences.

The point is that we have the ability to override our genes. If we did not, then there would be no point talking about morals because they would simply be the consequences of our genes.

We do indeed have that ability, but that doesn't mean that everything we do is overriding our genes. Overriding our genes is when the action we are taking prevents, or circumvents their purpose. Like using birth control.

You would need to show that the way we use our moral foundations either prevents or circumvents their purposes. Otherwise we are merely using them as a vehicle to achieve an extra-goal, we are not overriding them.

1313. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271267 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 12:49 pm

To expand on my point further, Bonzai, it occurred to me a better way to put it. By creating fictional scenarios, we are perhaps trying to isolate the positive emotions from violent actions, and remove the negative ones. The guilt, the empathy, and so forth.

Unless someone is positively psychopathic, every killer must experience the negative emotions as well as pleasure. This means, arguably, for emotional motivation, and enjoyment, simulated violence may be worse. In that sense.

1314. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271262 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 12:43 pm

8823. Comment #271254 by Bonzai

I agree to an extent. I've also watched "Kink" a few times. Too many ugly half naked people for my liking though.

I think that what those people, as well as I -- and perhaps all of us in our own ways -- seek to achieve is that feeling that comes from the real thing, that we desire. We just settle for a facsimile because we have conflicting emotions about them. We want to experience them, but in a controlled way where we can remove the more questionable aspects of it. So I do think that the emotions we are trying to elicit are the same, and I do think that it is quite possible that we succeed. I'm not so sure that the pleasure from killing cannot be had without the actual killing.

As for unrealism...well horror movies that are based on true events, where people are gruesomely, and brutally murdered in increasingly realistic fashion doesn't seem to fail in filling movie sets.

1315. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271247 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 12:31 pm

8816. Comment #271232 by Bonzai

Wow, an argument that actually goes "Jesus is X, but he can't be all bad, because Mitchell is also X".

Looks like things for me hit a low note and a high note in one day. Amazing.

1316. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271244 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 12:28 pm

8817. Comment #271237 by root2squared

Because your pleasure is coming from an immoral act. If you want to be strictly technical about it, you could say the first kill is immoral and the pleasure is a reaction. However future acts will be motivated by this pleasure derived the first time. Hence immoral.

Motivation for immoral actions are not immoral, only the actual action is. We all have motivations to commit immoral actions, and everyday. If we didn't, then no one would commit any.

I say morals are unique to humans because they override the designs of our genes. What animals do is behaviour driven by their genes. Therefore, not morals.

I think this is clearly false. Human moral codes and specifics may be invented, but our moral emotions, and foundations are genetic. I also don't agree for a second that they override the designs of our genes.

That is an assertion, it is by no means a fact.

1317. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271239 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 12:21 pm

8814. Comment #271228 by Bonzai

I'm not entirely sure. I do think -- as a previous post alluded to -- that in modern times we quench our thirst for destruction with fiction. I don't think that it's gone. We love blood and gore. I would say that we know on an intellectual level that they aren't real, but we also know that about pornographic images in magazines, on our own computer screens, that doesn't seem to hinder their adequacy for eliciting the same sexual reactions that real people in front of us would.

Intuitively, I would think that it doesn't elicit the same emotions, but because of how easily we appear to be fooled, and how so few of our physical and emotional reactions are under our intellectual control, that virtual violence can elicit the same emotions.

Though it is definitely up for debate.

As for me, I'd do almost anything in a video game. Gruesome, gory, slaughter, destruction. It would be a hell of a lot of fun. The more real the better. This doesn't in the slightest make me want to behave similarly towards real things.

Would it elicit the same pleasure that a person that takes pleasure in real killing receives? I think that it really might.

Though supposing it didn't, I don't think that it effects my point. I would then merely turn it into a hypothetical, and say "supposing it did elicit such emotions, would it be immoral"?

I only consider things immoral when they have real victims and only because they have real victims.

1318. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271224 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 12:08 pm

8809. Comment #271221 by Bonzai

I'm saying that the consequences is all that is important. I am saying that the taking pleasure in the action is immaterial to the morality of the action. In my opinion.

8806. Comment #271209 by Titania

Rofl.

Cornered*

1319. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271214 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 12:01 pm

8799. Comment #271186 by root2squared

Why is pleasure of killing immoral?

I was not comparing actions. Having an emotion is not an action on anything other than a chemical level. I was comparing subjective reactions, as a feeling of pleasure is, no matter what elicits it.

Morals are not a human quality. They are ubiquitous among social mammals, to varying extents.

1320. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271211 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 11:59 am

8801. Comment #271191 by Titania

I wouldn't try to insult you. Just the things you like.

Yeah, I remember that scene too, but I was pretty young when I saw the movie, so it didn't impact me in an equivalent fashion.

8802. Comment #271196 by Bonzai

I actually avoid killing insects whenever possible as well. Not because I think that they can suffer, fear, or feel pain...but I just somehow am happier not killing them.

1321. 'People say I'm strident'

Comment #271205 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 11:55 am

Yeah, sometimes I think it might be cool to not be constantly worried about something bad happening to me, but then I fear that my being cognizant of this helps in the prevention of bad things from happening to me.

So the bliss of ignorance (or delusion) may carry a heavy prize.

1322. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271177 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 11:33 am

8793. Comment #271167 by root2squared

I'm separating the pleasure of killing from the actual killing. If it is the pleasure that is immoral then whether I'm killing or not should be immoral, if it is the killing that is immoral, then whether I take pleasure in it or not is immoral.

This reminds me of Sam Harris' argument in his book (End of Faith). About how people tend to not give a second thought if someone said that they were a bomber in a war, but we do if someone said they bashed a guys face in with a pipe.

The bomber likely incinerated hundreds, if not thousands. Many of which would have been civilians. Yet because we know that it takes a special type of person to bash someone's head in, we intuitively consider that worse. Who has committed the most wrong though is obvious (supposing the justification for both acts were equal).

This seems to be the same type of reasoning to me.

1323. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271170 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 11:25 am

8791. Comment #271160 by Bonzai

Rats can be scary, and will lunge at you when corned. I also have seen massive ones around, after the dump up the road was plowed over.

I have none around my house, but I definitely still would try to get them out without killing them if at all possible, if I did.

It isn't just the cute animals I don't want to see hurt, but I do definitely like them the bestest!

1324. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271159 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 11:17 am

8788. Comment #271157 by Bonzai

That is quite an ancient hunting tactic. Homo Erectus also did that. Neanderthals did it to Mammoths.

1325. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271158 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 11:15 am

8786. Comment #271152 by Bonzai

That's terrible. I have to save mice from my cat sometimes. My inside cat (she hasn't succeeded in killing anything yet, to my knowledge). My outside cat is a cold-blooded killer though.

1326. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271151 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 11:10 am

8783. Comment #271149 by root2squared

Why does that matter? If I get the same pleasure from massacring populations on video games am I a worse person than someone that kills real people but feels bad about it?

That seems pretty strange to me.

1327. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271150 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 11:07 am

8780. Comment #271145 by Titania

Nah, I'm a narcissistic, sociopathic-egotist.

I didn't like Powder, and I don't care that you did!!

See.

1328. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271141 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 10:58 am

8773. Comment #271136 by MaxD

I didn't say that. You have confused me with Root2Squared.

1329. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271138 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 10:57 am

8771. Comment #271133 by Bonzai

People who go for trophie hunting probably don't even eat the meat.

You'd be surprised...

1330. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271132 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 10:52 am

8764. Comment #271126 by MaxD

I disagree that it is. For the reasons given.

8767. Comment #271129 by MaxD

I don't think that it is okay. I'm a vegan.

1331. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271128 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 10:50 am

8758. Comment #271117 by Titania

We were also likely a factor in Neanderthal extinction. We could be a planet with two intelligent species on it. In fact, I read that if the Neanderthals had a 2% higher birthrate, or a 2% lower death rate, they might still be around.

1332. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271123 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 10:42 am

8752. Comment #271107 by MaxD

I don't think that it is for preserving ecosystems either. I think that is a lame excuse for hunting.

The vast majority of hunters hunt for sport. So "study of wilderness", or "funds for lands" do not apply.

Mass extinction and loss of bio-diversity is also normal. Though this is usually caused by natural disasters. One of the proposed reasons why our ancestors almost went extinct two hundred thousand years ago is because the volcano that is now located under yellow stone blew. Which caused global repercussions.

What we should be worried about is only things that directly or indirectly would influence our health and well-being. From what I understand, the vast majority of environmental experts are not calling for hunting for a solution for preservation. I only see hunters arguing that.

If I were presented with good reason to think that it was the lesser of two evils, then I would reluctantly support it, but I remain unconvinced.

1333. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271109 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 10:23 am

8749. Comment #271103 by Titania

I changed the post several times within the first few minutes of posting it.

I did add mention to that.

1334. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271097 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 10:15 am

8740. Comment #271092 by MaxD

Conservation is complete bullshit. Species die, species live. Populations explode, and then shrink to near extinction. Why should we try to police nature?

I'm not saying that the way things work in nature is necessarily good, but it isn't necessarily bad either. I think it is a smoke screen for people's desires to shoot stuff.

If hunting were mandatory in order to keep ecosystems from dying then it would be a highly regulated and trained force that did it, and were directed on exact evidence, and calculations by experts. This doesn't happen. It is just something anyone can do for fun, or not do.

Going around and "thinning out their numbers" like Jim and Ted is just a stupid excuse.

If you think that ecosystems need us to keep them going then you haven't been paying attention. They were around for long before we got here, and will be for long after we're gone.

The only real conservation we need, is to stop fucking with it, and destroying them. To just leave them alone.

1335. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271093 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 10:09 am

8736. Comment #271088 by MaxD

Yeah. Who needs them when you have soul caliber 4. Go Talim!

1336. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271083 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 9:52 am

I mean we're all sick and gruesome fucks! Why can't they get their blood-lust quenched with video games, anime, manga, comics, movies and television like a normal healthy person?

We don't need Roman Gladiators, public executions and hunting anymore. We have virtual versions. Virtual versions that can fulfill any of our twisted desires for violence and destruction.

1337. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271077 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 9:20 am

If being a man involves torturing and killing then I have no interest in being a man.

Personally though, I tend to see "being a man" as being an adult male person.

1338. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271065 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 8:17 am

8718. Comment #271063 by Titania

Then it's not all about Mitchell for you. How sweet of you!

No, no. It is. It was in my self-interest for numerous reasons that I'm too inconsiderate to elucidate to you.

Any chance you can join us in Dublin next summer for the rd.net Drinking Atheists Convention and get out for a bit?

I'm Canadian and poor, so too far to walk. Plus, I can't swim.

I'll work on making one of those Euro get togethers someday though.

1339. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271061 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 7:59 am

8714. Comment #271054 by Titania

Thanks.

8715. Comment #271055 by Titania

Yeah.

Well, not solely for him. He was the third person to complain. Though he wasn't complaining, so didn't count!

1340. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271034 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 7:18 am

8708. Comment #271026 by Laurie Fraser

Good. Then it's back.

1341. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271030 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 7:15 am

8707. Comment #271025 by Titania

Post warning for stuff like that next time please. I'm quite serious. Given the choice, I would much prefer NOT seeing things get tortured and killed.

1342. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271023 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 7:09 am

You're just old and easily made dizzy. That was merely temporary, to see of far I could stretch the size limits. I have plans to get around to making a good one when I want to spend a couple hours on it.

It may be worth it to pay for my own hosting, so I can have like a ten minute avatar. Though that would take days to make.

1343. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271016 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 7:01 am

You have no idea how many AMVs I'm going to have to watch to fix my mood.

The quite adorable lucky star song and dance should help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_RPZcSZWJo

1344. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271013 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 6:56 am

8702. Comment #271011 by Laurie Fraser

Hey man. It's difficult being knee-jerk liberal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3qgiNPVpSM

1345. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271009 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 6:41 am

I just woke up. Now my day is fucked. Jesus Christ, I'm a vegan already universe... what more do you want from me?

1346. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #270999 by Wosret on October 25, 2008 at 6:12 am

8693. Comment #270978 by Titania

WTF? You should post a warning for something like that. I don't want to see wolves get shot.

1347. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #270871 by Wosret on October 24, 2008 at 8:54 pm

Serious though, Shrommer, worry is just a fact of life. Grow up and live with it. Things are not true or false based on which would alleviate worry.

All theism appears to me to be is a childish rejection of reality, in favor of a comfortable delusion. It would be fantastic if there were eternal life, super-magic-powers, universal justice, and all that nice stuff, but there aren't. It's fantasy. Learn to separate fantasy from reality.

Fantasy is beautiful, fun, and absolutely enthralling, but don't deceive yourself into thinking it is anything other than fantasy.

If you think you should take the ultimate temper tantrum -- because the universe isn't how you would desire it to be, and decidedly unfair -- by committing suicide (as you suggest you would if not for your fantasies), then that is your prerogative. There are enough people vying for your resources, so if you don't want them...I'm sure someone else does.

1348. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #270863 by Wosret on October 24, 2008 at 7:59 pm

503. Comment #270856 by Shrommer

Observed by whom? Name one eye witness that personally wrote a single word in reference to Jesus. All we have is stuff written between 60 and 100 years after his supposed death, by people that never met the man, nor even claimed to have.

505. Comment #270861 by Shrommer

Yes, you're gay for Jesus. Good for you. He is kind of hot. Way too much hair though, in my opinion.

Yes, he gave his own life to purchase you from himself. A rather insane twist on the scapegoat theory of redemption.

1349. If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out (Take My Wife)

Comment #270797 by Wosret on October 24, 2008 at 4:50 pm

I'm not open to the supernatural in any sense. Not until someone refutes Hume. Until then I couldn't be more closed to the idea.

1350. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #270738 by Wosret on October 24, 2008 at 2:43 pm

8549. Comment #270732 by Bonzai

Ha! That's hilarious!

No, nothing you'all don't already know. I'm a proud weird fuck. Not a repressed one.