1301. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15416 by Logicel on December 31, 2006 at 5:53 am

JohnC, Here is a very relevant quote from the Wikipedian entry on Piaget:

In Conversations with Jean Piaget, he says: "Education, for most people, means trying to lead the child to resemble the typical adult of his society . . . but for me and no one else, education means making creators. . . . You have to make inventors, innovators—not conformists," (Bringuier, 1980, p.132). His influence on education was not long lasting or profound, however. This was perhaps because his theory is not well taught in educational colleges and text books, and perhaps because his model of the child's development implied a far more radical transformation of the education system than was acceptable. (boldface is mine)

Adults resist regarding children as full fledged humans with the potential to do anything. Adults seem to think that their version of what they consider to be 'childhood' is precious and must be protected and prolonged--though this concept is relatively recent in human history. Adults need to have their consciousness raised regarding children just like racists/sexists had to have their consciousness raised. And if I seem to be a little tough on the Santa lie, it is because when I witness parents doing the Santa routine, all I see is an empty, meaningless routine that at the very least is neutral and at the very most, harmful to the mental/moral development of the child.

Children thrive on parental attention--why do hard-working parents spending time, effort, money in perpetrating the Santa myth deny the knowledge to their children that they are the ones that are paying attention to the children, why do they willingly give Santa credit for the extremely valuable and much needed parental attention of which they are in reality bestowing upon their children?

1302. How Old is the Grand Canyon? Park Service Won't Say

Comment #15287 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 6:56 am

I see that Nikki's great link has been posted separately for discussion.

This a great sentence: "As one park geologist said, this is equivalent of Yellowstone National Park selling a book entitled Geysers of Old Faithful: Nostrils of Satan," Ruch added, pointing to the fact that previous NPS leadership ignored strong protests from both its own scientists and leading geological societies against the agency approval of the creationist book. "

I remembered my family trip to the Grand Canyon decades ago when I was a kid, and how the scientific presentation of geologic facts were exhilarating to me and influenced my becoming an amateur geologist when I reached adolescence. To think that now children going to that same wonderful site are slapped in the face with crap, like a book on creationism and its idiotic interpretation of geological time, makes me profoundly sad.

The geologists that have to endure this nonsense must have joined that group of scientists--an article was listed at this site concerning this banding of scientists against the misusing of governmental funds to hold back the advancement of science. Being an American, with litigious blood cells rampaging in my arteries, I hope eventually the Grand Canyon scientists sue their employers for abuse in the workplace.

1303. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15282 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 6:30 am

JohnC, Just because this is an atheistic forum, does not mean that no matter how clear one is, one is not going to get misconstrued.

I wanted just to tie in a few loose ends. On many threads at this forum, people have stated that it is important that we focus on children's education, because once a child is taught that it is ok to accept faith as a basis for belief, than that child is on the way of becoming a faith-based adult, whether that belief eventually embraces a traditional religion or a new age one. And once that happens, then it very hard for them to become deconverted.

Several of us have discussed that critical thinking is not encouraged for a child to learn how to do, at family or at schools. And though we may see the utility in teaching children how to critically think, we in practice, as adults, continue to coddle kids as if they cannot learn how to critically think, and then we have the gall to wonder why adults do not do a very good job of it.

1304. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15274 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 5:30 am

JohnC, I did not say that Santa has anything to do with religion, and I did not advocate the challenging of Santa be strewn across any rallying atheistic banner. My religious parents made it clear that Santa did not exist, so I do not have believing in Santa connected with religion in my mind or my experience.

My opinion about challenging the Santa tradition is based on my insistence that children are full-fledged human beings, and they are often not treated that way, as if their humanity is not potent enough just because they are young and inexperienced. I am a champion of youth rights (http://youthrights.org/), and this championship is based on my own very still sharp memory of how I was treated as a child--as I am fond of describing it, since I am a female, I was treated a bit more severely than the male children who were 1/2 human while I was apparently 1/4 human. Dawkins, himself, in TGD says that parents needs to encourage children to disagree with them.

The foundations upon which fantasy is based are certainly borrowed from the adult world. My point is that the child needs to be encouraged to choose which foundations on which he/she wants to build their own fantasies. Fantasies can be not only shared with others, but they can come into being collectively. And the Santa one does not have a monopoly on those aspects.

I would like to take this opportunity to mention that some users of this site of like mind have come together to discuss a kids self-education project:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4515

As for cautioning me in my use of memes, I will certainly take heed of such caution and add to the already existing caution that I have about using memes to get my point across!

1305. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15260 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 3:26 am

JohnC, I am being serious about the Santa meme. Though I was told by my parents that Santa does not exist, I was encouraged to use my imagination, and write fiction, put on family theatre, write poems, draw and paint, run through the sand dunes at our summer shack, with a towel tied to my neck, imitating superman. My childhood was rich with fantasy in which I played an active role--it was not fantasy spoon fed to my by adults that have no idea what fantasies in which I would like indulge myself.

I am rereading Blackmore's The Meme Machine, and I do agree with her that memes replicate for their own selfish need to reproduce themselves. And as I am able to transcend my human selfish genes and not just propagate myself via the genetic direction, I also make it a point for me to transcend consciously certain memes, and to choose to aid that meme replication that I decide has some advantage to myself and society. And the Santa meme is not one of them.

1306. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15252 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 1:46 am

jhb90277, Thanks for your considered and thoughtful comment.

Challenging the Santa meme, especially because this particular fantasy can be directed towards children so they will toe the parental line--get rewarded if they are obedient--is something I do as much is possible. Just as I will no longer remain silent when supporters of religious superstitions drone on and on about their supersitious beliefs, I will no longer be quiet concerning the using of the Santa meme. My challenging this particular meme is to encourage people to think about it and encourage discussion regarding it, and not necessarily to stop practicing it right away.

The actual practice of this Santa fantasy differs. Just like Richard Dawkin's exposure to the religious meme was not as viral as it can be, so is the exposure to the Santa meme--sounds like your familial practice is of the less virulent kind.

1307. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15251 by Logicel on December 30, 2006 at 1:33 am

Nikki, Thanks for this link:

http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=801
________

This a great sentence: "As one park geologist said, this is equivalent of Yellowstone National Park selling a book entitled Geysers of Old Faithful: Nostrils of Satan," Ruch added, pointing to the fact that previous NPS leadership ignored strong protests from both its own scientists and leading geological societies against the agency approval of the creationist book. "

I remembered my family trip to the Grand Canyon decades ago when I was a kid, and how the scientific presentation of geologic facts were exhilarating to me and influenced my becoming an amateur geologist when I reached adolescence. To think that now children going to that same wonderful site are slapped in the face with crap, like a book on creationism and its idiotic interpretation of geological time, makes me profoundly sad.

The geologists that have to endure this nonsense must have joined that group of scientists--an article was listed at this site concerning this banding of scientists against the misusing of governmental funds to hold back the advancement of science. Being an American, with litigious blood cells rampaging in my arteries, I hope eventually the Grand Canyon scientists sue their employers for abuse in the workplace.

1308. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15221 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:56 pm

Why does a child having an imaginary friend worries their parents and psychologists as a compelling problem with which to deal while a child believing in an imaginary Santa does not?

Is a child lying to itself when it creates an imaginary friend? No. Is a parent lying to a child when they teach their child to believe in imaginary beings in whom they themselves do not believe? Yes.

If parents truly want to have magically special times with their children, can't they come up with something better than this particular meme of Santa? Can't they encourage the development of imagination in their children without resorting to lies. Of course they can!

1309. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #15211 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 2:38 pm

Aussie said, "I find that the most heart warming section of this whole website is Convert's Corner - easily accessed from the left margin of the front page. Do visit it if you have not yet done so. To see so many people throwing off the shackles of fear and superstition and regaining their lives as a result of reading Richard's books is a pleasure to behold."
_____

People like David are working hard unknowingly to help deconvert people. He is a positive force for deconversion. But I guess if he does become deconverted himself, there will be plenty of David clones that will fit the bill for promoting the continuing deconversion of supporters of religious superstition. So our 'cause' could withstand the sacrifice of David becoming deconverted!

The saying, that a pickpocket when seeing Jesus will only see his pockets, can be applied to David's response to the Convert's corner at this site: All that courage, intelligence, and all that positiveness saddens David?

And in typical David fashion, he thinks that the majority of the converts are not Christian? Most of the testimonials are from people who once believed deeply in Jesus. David does not pay attention to what people are saying and writing. He misconstrues content fairly 'religiously.'

1310. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #15205 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 2:04 pm

Billy Sands said, "It is funny, no matter how irretreviably you think you are down the atheistic path, someone like David comes along and makes you realise that it is possible to be convinced even more that christianity is totally wrong. thanks Dave."
_______

If only the discussion threads monopolized by David and the responses to his posts could be published, I think Christianity would vanish!

I agree with you absolutely regarding that reading David's comments gives a boost to why we are atheists and why we are vocal ones.

1311. God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

Comment #15202 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 1:46 pm

BeyondBelief said, "I explained to him that what he believes is between him and his family and that he cannot share that with other people."
_______

So then all the god botherers should not discuss their beliefs outside their families?

I am very interested in how you handled this, in terms of speaking to your son and getting back to his teacher.

1312. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15146 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:29 am

Stewart said, "On the school segregation issue, one might add that the all-male study environments of the ultra-Orthodox are rumoured to lead to more homosexuality than would otherwise manifest itself (the need for physical contact often wins out over all other taboos and when there is no one of the opposite sex around...), which then runs afoul of yet another biblical injunction."
_______

And because believers are prohibited by their faith to question anything about said faith, they stay mired in a situation that their own faith says is sinful.

1313. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15145 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:27 am

Perhaps a letter to Miriam should be written by atheists in the lines of the one that was written to Ted Haggard?

http://letter2ted.org/Default.aspx

1314. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #15144 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:11 am

Percy Walker wrote The Moviegoer in which was featured a fictional character, Binx Bolling.

Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedian entry on Walker: "He devoted his literary life to the exploration of "the dislocation of man in the modern age,"[1] and his work exhibited a unique combination of existentialism, southern sensibility, and deeply-felt Catholicism."

I am sure many know who Binx Bolling is, but I did not, so I am just including it here for some who may have not known about Binx and his creator.

1315. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #15140 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:02 am

Kingasaurus said, "If there is an evolutionary reason why the grouper doesn't devour the small cleaner fish once it finishes cleaning inside the grouper's mouth, it really isn't a big stretch to look for biological reasons why hypothetical societies which would allow anarchical murder and wanton, purposeless destruction just because its members "feel like doing it" just aren't going to be very successful."
_________

And that is why the majority of humanity are not psychopaths.

As I have said many times before, the discourse at RichardDawkins.Net is of consistently high quality, and I thank all who contribute their time and mental energies in doing so, and I thank the creators and managers of this marvelous site. Us atheistic 'cats' have managed to create a flourishing community. Kudos to everyone involved.

1316. Fallen Angels Assault: Heaven at Christmas

Comment #15003 by Logicel on December 28, 2006 at 3:44 am

Denoir said, "I therefore think that "love" (which is implied in patriotism) is a very wrong term to use to express approval of the society you live in."
____

Growing up in New York City, I was exposed to many different nationalities, and of course, many Americans still retain some of the cultural customs of the countries from which they emigrated. As some posters have previously pointed out that once they knew of the existence of different religions, they began to question their own as why it should be the one and only true one. Being exposed to people who identified with other nationalities, did the same thing for me and patriotism.

I encouraged myself to pinpoint the workable aspects of a group of citizens, and for me it is capitalism, secular government, democracy, and adherence to Law.

Other aspects--which I enjoy immensely in the French version--like beauty and variety of the landscape, culinary heights, the kissing of cheeks and shaking of hands, the shrugging of shoulders when one is perplexed, the melange of the 'hot' southern European culture with the cooler northern cultural aspects, and the appreciation of good conversation can fine tune and custom make the societal fit to oneself.

1317. How the Great Atheist got polite society standing

Comment #14998 by Logicel on December 28, 2006 at 2:16 am

"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a Lunatic Asylum."
______

Also because there was no medication for psychiatric problems available then:

I saw a version of The Ten Commandments on French TV recently.

A glaring aspect of the Hebrews as presented in that film was that they were Egyptian slaves that slavishly followed Moses and Moses' God, and then slavishly worshipped the Golden Calf when Moses took a short break from them (and I don't blame him that he did), and then went back slavishly following Moses and his God.

Meanwhile Moses was in constant agony because of such activities as advocating stoning and the throwing of the first stone (to set a good example for his 'slaves') at a couple of his good friends, the killing of his Egyptian 'brother' by his God's miracle of the parting of the waters, and the killing of this same 'brother's' firstborn, again by one of Moses' God's miracles.

I could not take it any more, I stood up screaming at the screen, "Get this guy, Moses, some friggin' Prosac, please!!!!!!

1318. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #14942 by Logicel on December 27, 2006 at 2:57 am

Sancus, I was unable to locate that forum thread, so I will discuss lucid dreaming a little bit here.

Looking up the definition of lucid dreaming, I realized that a psychologist describing my waking state where I had a difficult time understanding that what took place in my dream was not real is not considered to be lucid dreaming. What! Can an expert be wrong? He apparently thought that lucid dreaming is when the dream is particularily 'real'.

Lucid dreaming as defined in Wikipedia is when you are conscious of dreaming. Doesn't everybody do that? (I hope that made you laugh!) Seriously, most of my dreams are lucid then. I suspect that I taught myself how to lucidly dream when I was a kid. I needed to be conscious during dreaming in order to stop wetting my bed in my sleep.

I definitely think that there are different levels, styles, and abilities regarding consciousness.

The Economist in its recent issues discusses how developments in neuroscience--in which I am very interested in--are challenging the notion of free will and choice and thereby really shaking up law and religion. Remember S. Harris is an neuroscientist.

Second Life, the web based virtual reality is interesting in this regard. Though resisting it at first, I then realized that it was very mentally and creatively stimulating.

I am sorry I cannot do justice to all the issues you have raised in this short reply. Point me to the forum thread where this is being discussed, and perhaps I can go into more detail.

1319. Fallen Angels Assault: Heaven at Christmas

Comment #14862 by Logicel on December 26, 2006 at 4:47 am

Briancoughlanworldcitizen, said, "Nationalisim, is arguably a far more pernicious form of delusion than religion, and you seem to be suffering from a full blown infection. Take your atheist skepticisim and apply it to your nationalisim, see how you get on.

For the record, applying my skeptical view of nationalisim to my religious convictions, was one of the primary hammer blows to deconstructing my religious faith. Maybe it can work both ways?:-)
_____

Briancoughlandworldcitizen, I remember about 15 years ago when I first moved to Europe from America, I bought and wore a tee-shirt with the slogan, 'world citizen.'

I am enjoying this discussion between Denoir and Sancus, and hope it continues as long as they are interested in doing so. I am learning about these two different viewpoints a bit more, and I appreciate their time and efforts in discussing them.

I, myself, am pretty tough in general on patriotic Americans, as they do seem to be reliqious and unthinking in their style of patriotism expressed by such sayings as, 'We are going to kick ass', America is the Greatest Country (sort of like Allah is great), etc. These kinds of posters abound in many discussion forums. So it is rare and scintillating to encounter a thoughtful patriot like Sancus. Apparently they do exist.

My atheism and my primary identity being that of a New Yorker (the rest of America always seemed foreign to me, and America to me is basically the American Constitution so I do not have a strong identity based on its people, culture, or land). Why that is, I have no idea, but that is how it turned out for me. So as I travelled and lived in other countries, I became less and less nationalistic, that is, in my nationality as a New Yorker, well, really, a Manhattanite. However, I am still heavily influenced by western civilization, so I am far from being a world citizen in my mind and heart, but I am trying.

The Middle East and the Far East (Chinese and Eqyptian cultures) influenced the development of western civilization, and despite of that--as I am fond of saying--it seems that many vocal Americans and I can add, Europeans, think that their country(ries) popped out fully developed from the void in a similar fashion as Athena popped out, fully formed, from the head of Zeus.

1320. Fallen Angels Assault: Heaven at Christmas

Comment #14861 by Logicel on December 26, 2006 at 4:17 am

Sancus said, "I've had to live in a homeless shelter myself. One of the worst experiences of my life, not just for the obvious loss of dignity, but because it was a Christian homeless shelter."
_______

Forgive me, Sancus, but that made me laugh so hard it hurt! Such is the bitter-sweetness of life. And since I gave you a chuckle with my coining, 'a bouquet of atheists', YOU OWED ME!

1321. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #14859 by Logicel on December 26, 2006 at 3:36 am

Sancus, I go through periods of having lucid dreams, lasting usually several months--the last one was about 3 years ago. I have to spend about an hour convincing myself that the lucid dream is only a dream after I wake up. So, yes, I seem to have a penchant for experiencing lucid dreaming.

Have you read The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes? RD actually referred to it in TGD, saying that--I am paraphasing here--it is either a work of genius or of a nutter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes

1322. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #14787 by Logicel on December 25, 2006 at 4:41 am

Circulation for mainstream journalistic vehicles are diminishing along with attendance in traditional churches (pentecostal and evangelical churches in Kenya, Brazil, America are not traditional). I wonder why? Is there something these traditional purveyors of journalism and church services are not getting? Something they have in common? Something they are not willing to provide for their customers?

1323. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #14784 by Logicel on December 25, 2006 at 4:33 am

Sancus said, "Just throwing out ideas now... Perhaps these assumptions serve a psychological purpose, for if our dreams were freely allowed to intersect with our waking consciousness, we would be close to hallucinating beasts. Spiritual people may be trying, if somewhat aimlessly, to find other intuitive assumptions that help re-separate spiritual experience in a more beneficial way (e.g. for more creativity and imaginative capacity). What other benefits could be in store, when purely atheistic intuitive assumptions are combined with those more beneficial spiritual ones?"

______

What can I say? Sancus, we are ames soeurs. I brought this connection up between imagination and spirituality and the need to harvest it for better purposes a month or so ago on an earlier discussion thread here, and no one ran with the ball, so I let it go.

1324. 10 myths - and 10 truths - about atheism

Comment #14782 by Logicel on December 25, 2006 at 4:24 am

Aussie, below are the HTML codes you can use for bolding, italicizing, etc.:

http://www.w3schools.com/tags/

You can also press the control key and the letter u to see what HTLM codes are being used in posts (so you can copy them yourself). After pressing the control key and the letter u, select 'find on this page' (to get to the code you want to identify that is being used)

1325. CBC Segment on Evangelist Christians

Comment #14607 by Logicel on December 23, 2006 at 4:15 pm

Edutheria, Thanks for the link to the Milton Friedman's series. My husband downloaded the entire series just in case they are eventually no longer offered. I know little details about Friedman's economic stance--just know that he is a super duper free market proponent. I saw the first episode and have a few questions. I will go and bug you at your blog! Thanks again for the heads up for the M. Friedman's video series.

1326. CBC Segment on Evangelist Christians

Comment #14603 by Logicel on December 23, 2006 at 3:54 pm

Jared, Thanks for taking the time for such a well though out post. I appreciate it. It is my perception that many threads at this site go off topic so I encourage this topic to continue here by interested parties. So far, it seems only JohnC is being conducive to seriously represent the socialistic viewpoint. I hope he continues, as I have alot to learn from both sides.

Experts in the forum? That really threw me for a loop.

1327. CBC Segment on Evangelist Christians

Comment #14473 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 3:15 pm

Blaine, Do you regard wealth creation as important? If so, how do you suggest motivating its creation? If you do not regard wealth creation as important, why not?

This discussion on free markets versus socialism has been very lively but polite and civil, with great emphasis on providing reasons and supports for stated viewpoints, so please go easy on judgemental adjectives and nouns like naive and evangelism. I am enjoying this discussion very much, and I want it to continue in a civil manner.

1328. It is possible to respect the believers but not the belief

Comment #14397 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 9:16 am

"A multicultural society can, at best, be an open, friendly competition between Christians, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, atheists and, indeed, two-plus-two-equals-fivers, to impress us with their character and good works."
_____

I worked at a university law library in NYC for many years, and my colleages during that time could have been mistaken for the United Nations a few blocks away--and many religions were represented, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddism, and Islam. And we all had the good sense to make sure that our workplace was secular. During Xmas, there would be secular Christmas decorations and there would be a big serve-yourself banquet. And still no one talked of religion because religion was properly regarded as an activity to practice in private by all. Though we knew of each others' religious affiliations, and sometimes among close colleagues we teased each other based on this knowledge which was always taken in stride as long as it was friendly and affectionate teasing.

Would I now act differently because I have embraced the new atheism? Well, I am certainly more articulate concerning atheism, and I would use my judgement as to when and where I would challenge the concept of faith. I had, back then, had many one-to-one conversations with believers, where I just stated that I had no need for religion. But now, I would, in those one-to-one situations, emphasize that I now accept that the encouraging of faith, because it is based on the assumption that it must just be accepted and not be questioned, has been, is, and will be dangerous to humanity.

1329. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14385 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 8:23 am

"So far I have read post after post explaining why,..."

_____

There is no excuse then for peterg to be so dense as not to understand correctly what posters here are posting--he is doing the old twisting, intellectually dishonest route thing, so after giving him several opportunities to be intellectually honest, I am suggesting for him to be trollized.

1330. Richard Dawkins on the Mike Dickin Show

Comment #14373 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 7:06 am

Aussie, How interesting that you are a developer of stockmarket technical analysis software! I am a daytrader by profession, and use technical analysis in my trading. In my community of daytraders, our emphasis is primarily on risk management, positive expectancy, and consistently following an edge. We rely upon ourselves via intentional learning to improve that existing edge. We criticize any trader that is looking for the technical 'holy grail', and I am particularily scathing in that regard--poor newbies!

Regarding your wanting to spend time on investigating your own premonitions, makes sense to me. Once, I had a very close friend whom I knew and trusted for many years, bend a spoon with his mind. He insisted that he did not knowingly bend the spoon, and that he thought perhaps he had unconsciously bent the spoon. But he called to my attention that the spoon was hot, and after checking, I could feel that it was. So, a mystery there for me. For my premonitions that I have experienced, I could always find a very logical explanation based on pattern recognition for them.

1331. The problem with secularism

Comment #14365 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 6:25 am

"...instigate one of the most stimulating and innovative movements in modern theology..."
______

My head slipped near my keyboard in somnolence several times during this stimulating and innovative article. I suppose these bloke's theological colleagues who profess a less stimulating approach would cause a mass coma upon their readers.

1332. The problem with secularism

Comment #14363 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 6:20 am

mryder66 said, "...to which these learned gentlemen should be ashamed to attach their names."
______

apparently these gentlemen are ill learned.

1333. The problem with secularism

Comment #14343 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 5:48 am

Philip Blond, Adrian Pabst, their bad.

1334. The problem with secularism

Comment #14341 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 5:47 am

Oh my.

1335. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14340 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 5:39 am

briancoughlanworldcitizen said, "You selfish atheist BASTARD."
_______

And being an atheist, I can't even blame the devil for tempting me in the form of a demonic digestive!

1336. CBC Segment on Evangelist Christians

Comment #14337 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 5:30 am

The 2.0 web-based economics of abundance, contrasting the economics of scarcity upon which is what free market principles are based, is also an interesting topic. Point in question, is the decision of my not buying TGD. I had decided not to because so many of Dawkins writings are available on the net, and also RD himself in reviews that I read on the Net stated that his book is simply a compilation of many previous writings. However, my husband being the free thinker that he is, went ahead and bought it, and I now realize that the purchase was worth every penny we spent on it!

1337. CBC Segment on Evangelist Christians

Comment #14335 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 5:16 am

JohnC, Fundamental Christianity reared its ugly head during the eighies, while I lived in America. Scandals knocked it back, and then it become prevalent again, and recently, has endured similar scandals and is no longer held in its recently former pristine light--so a repeat pattern.

When it was surging in the eighties, I was amazed and had no 'disciplined' explanation for its strength other than my subjective opinion that American mass culture is toxic, superficial, un-thinking, and repulsive. The 'masses' enjoy crapola it seems. I do not see any individualistic tendency in this embracing of the common cultural denominator, though the vendors of this mass culture practice the free market approach.

I also support the notion of quality, that we, in our individual and collective endeavors need to strive for quality, and as long as the avenue to this quality seeking is open to all, then it is not elitist, which is the 'credo' of Wikipedia, which also encourages all editors to be BOLD.

It is also my subjective opinion that America is in a sort of vicious circle--embracing of free market principles allow for the selling of a lot of crapola which sates American material appetite but does nothing for something more lasting and satisfying than the next McDonald burger so they 'buy' the sewage spilling out of the commercial mega churches to stave off their deeper hunger for meaning.

Though I am a libertarian in my economic viewpoint, and I think American markets are not liberal enough, especially in its international agricultural market dealings, I, myself, make it a point not to consume. As my husband recently said, if everybody did what we do, the world global economy would come to a halt.

1338. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14333 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 4:26 am

Some of us have just started a thread on Kids Self Education:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=7

Check it out.

1339. I love the commercialisation of Christmas

Comment #14330 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 4:06 am

Edutheria, a thread on Kids self education has just been started here:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=57997#57997

You are most welcome to contribute, as is anyone else.

1340. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14324 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 3:07 am

BushYakker said, "I also deny eating the last chocolate digestive."
_____
Dead right, because it was I who ate the last chocolate digestive!

(For the Americans: chocolate digestive is a less sweet, more rich in fat, and round version of a chocolate grahm cracker)

1341. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14322 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 2:58 am

"Rather than encouraging young Christians to denounce their faith, you should be very hopeful they hang onto it, since rising Muslim demographics in Europe mean that very soon, probably in your lifetimes, atheist sites will be under severe and possibly physical pressure from young European Muslims."
____

France strongly enforces Laicite and have for decades. During the recent riots throughout France but particularily in the Parisian suburbs, the rioting was not due to muslims protesting because France is not a muslim state but because the unemployment among the muslim population is significantly higher than the already high unemployment in France.

Not only do the theists project their blind allegiance to 'overlords' onto us, they are also scrambling for a fear carrot to dangle in front of our rational noses. We are not frightened of eternal damnation, so they try to come up with something that will scare us so much that we will retreat from our atheistic confrontation with theists. And they fail every time, because they just keep on projecting what works in their theistic communities onto our's.

1342. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14319 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 2:47 am

jefferson, great sarcasm, and I got it this time!!!

1343. CBC Segment on Evangelist Christians

Comment #14308 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 2:04 am

I appreciate the time that Sancus, Edutheria, Cholmonedeley, Greyed, Jared, JohnC, and others have given on this topic of free-market libertarianism and socialism.

I regard the conducting of this topic as being done is a very admirable way, and I encourage it to continue as long as there is interest in doing so. I also think that it is very positive that the opposing sides conclude that they will continue to promote atheism despite their differences.

I have lived in America for around 40 years, and about 15 in socialistic Europe. And you could say that I am confused about the benefits/disadvantages of both! Many times, here in Europe, I am disgusted by the lack of individual initiative--for example, the majority of the young French's only aspiration is to become civil servants--but at the same time impressed and consoled by what appears to me to be a much nicer society in which to live. So it a topic very close to me.

1344. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #14297 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 1:09 am

Yorker, Upon investigating, I do not see a way of starting a new discussion at the forum, and the only existing topic that is somewhat relevant to what we what to do is under Civic Action.

1345. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #14294 by Logicel on December 22, 2006 at 1:01 am

Yorker, It is my understanding that you can start a thread at the forum here at this site, and the people who are interested in this topic can go over there. Please do that. And we can copy and paste the posts that have been done already in this thread to the new discussion thread. You can announce here the new thread when you open it up.

1346. I love the commercialisation of Christmas

Comment #14219 by Logicel on December 21, 2006 at 2:06 pm

Edutheria, excellent posts, thanks.

1347. 7 monks injured in clash over monastery

Comment #14214 by Logicel on December 21, 2006 at 1:55 pm

Vadjong, hysterically funny!!!! Tee shirts need to be printed up with the slogan, Strafebomb Athos with used sanitary towels!

1348. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14213 by Logicel on December 21, 2006 at 1:50 pm

Peterg has given new meaning to the saying, 'Peter Piper Picked a Peck of Pickled Peppers'. If he apologizes he will look like an idiot, if he does not he will also look like an idiot--quite a pickle he has got himself in!

1349. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14209 by Logicel on December 21, 2006 at 1:45 pm

Veronique said, "The only way that makes sense for anyone to denounce Islam is for a group of equally brave recovering Islamics to do a similar thing as RRS has done but in their own country."
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Great point and well said. Thanks!

1350. The Trouble with Atheism

Comment #14207 by Logicel on December 21, 2006 at 1:35 pm

Luthien said, "The question is: how do we organise this collection into a 'journey' that can be tailored to each individual that visit's the site?"
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Be patient with me here, I am musing out loud--I have a main blog site to which I contribute and use as my core avenue for knowledge during my work day, in the form of links, other blogs, and comments, and posts by the contributors. It is fantastic--when necessary, I can ask questions and also I can answer questions. When I go to one of the blogs linked on the site, I am welcomed. It is a learning community of the first order. It is a community of stock market daytraders! The main site is a mansion, but it contains many doors to other rooms where I can choose to go depending on the nature of my knowledge quest.