1351. Fleabytes

Comment #131494 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 1:28 pm

Bonzai,

I do know that

(- and apology accepted. I think we can leave it at having ackowledged the differences of opinion.)

1352. Over half of Britons claim no religion

Comment #131457 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:58 pm

al-rawandi,

there are implications - and I mentioned them in post 131439. ;)

1353. Over half of Britons claim no religion

Comment #131454 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:56 pm

krisking,

atheism, or rather non-theism is the default position because without a concept of god you cannot be a theist. As you acquire conceptions over time, along with the ability to modify and reflect upon them (much later than having conceptions), you are born without theism, thus an atheist or non-theist (if you like that term better, but it really means the same).

Where does religion come from? Now that's too easily answered by psychology and sociology. Looking for patterns is essential for entities governed by central nervous systems - and there is a good likelyhood of false positives, because that gets you far less in trouble than being predisposed towards false negatives.
Furthermore, there is the need for explanations where there are none or at least not to your knowledge or as of yet (in the times religions were invented, people had very little real knowledge of how the world works - every lightning, thunder, rainfall, pretty much everything was puzzling).

So people see intentionality where there is none and invent stories to explain stuff - without explanatory power - ie myths.

1354. Over half of Britons claim no religion

Comment #131439 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:45 pm

I am not suggestion that you have any religious faith. I am suggesting that being an atheist will have implications for your lifestyles.

Yes indeed. It means we're not likely to pray to Mars for victory, to Poseidon for steady waters, we're not likely to sacrifice animals to appease Yahweh, that we're not likely to insist on women covering every inch of their skin etc.

In that way it does influence our lifestyles. But so does being an atheist about 99% of all the gods ever invented influence your lifestyle.

1355. Over half of Britons claim no religion

Comment #131435 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:40 pm

Faith suppresses critical facilities that are important for humanity in this century.

True, but don't forget compartmentalisation. My girlfriend (before she lost her faith during her discussions with me and having me read TGD to her) used to be a good example: Coming from a highly religious family (German protestantism - quite liberal and not opposed to science), having received strong childhood indoctrination, she was religious and had her faith. Yet, she is a student of biology and has a very good understanding of the natural sciences as well as logic and mathematics. Quite an intelligent person capable of rational inquiry and thinking scientifically about scientific matters.

-Compartmentailsation.

The consequences of her childhood indoctrination and applying rational inquiry to her religion with the consequence of having lost her religious faith?
She is afraid to come out to her family and friends - as her family (otherwise very nice people), including her older sister with whom she always has been very close, wouldn't be able to cope with that and couldn't accept her being an atheist. Actually, a few weeks ago, when I asked her what she's planning on doing concerning her family and the religious activities (going to church, singing in the choir, leading a children's group) she observes, she was so worried by this that she was crying in my arms for about an hour.

I cannot tell you how much I despised religion at that moment.

Faith is "thinking without a seat belt".

Hmm... I would have said "Faith is thinking with a restraining order"

1356. Over half of Britons claim no religion

Comment #131419 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:26 pm

I completely agree with your last post, krisking.
And of course, teaching ethical behaviour should include that they have respect for people who hold benign views. Doesn't mean that they should respect the ideology or false beliefs per se. I think that it is a virtue to stand up and challange irrationality.

This doesn't mean that you have no respect for the person. However, when they chose to identify completely with their ideology, that is not the problem of the one criticizing the ideology.

As for Dawkins having stated that we cannot be 100% certain that there is no god - I agree.

In fact, I think we can only know two things with absolute certainty:
1)I exist (not however, that we have an immaterial mind, as Descartes assumed)
and
2)Logical necessity, consistency and inconsistency and things which are entirely a matter of logic.

This means, however, that while we cannot know with 100% absolute certainty that deities exist, we can know with absolute 100% certainty that deities the description/conception of which are logically contradictory cannot exist.

Having read the Bible, I know that it applies there, although until now, every theist I know has engaged in ex post facto ad hoc semantic reinterpretations to get around these contradictions - and in the course (I'm sorry, this may seem unkind, but sadly it's true) has made himself look ridiculous by proclaiming that the contradictory statements in the Bible mean something entirely different (and very obscure) from what the statements obviously say. And the fact that these reinterpretations are ex post facto and ad hoc makes has made it look pretty sad.

1357. Fleabytes

Comment #131403 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:11 pm

Bonzai,

concerning "Modus Pollens" - we could of course just delete the pertaining sections from our comments.


Concerning "P->Q"... I see. You mean when people mistakenly assign the value 1 to P and assume the truth of P->Q. Yes, that would lead to Q being assigned the value 1 via modus ponendo ponens. Must be that I wasn't paying attention - and missed that you were talking about people already having assumed that P is true.

I furthermore agree that for people who want some "excitement" and a sense of awe while also being taught about a subject GEB is the book of choice, rather than technical introductions into formal logic. Much like Hawkins or Greene for physics.

1358. Over half of Britons claim no religion

Comment #131398 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:03 pm

Teaching something is never an ideology. An ideology can be behind it, or the teaching can be done so as to indoctrinate someone into an ideology, in this case rationalism - But teaching itself is never an ideology per se.

Anyway, teaching children science provides rational answers for these questions, and that these are "..." while also teaching them that people believe this and that out of a certain motivation (easy, comprehensive answers with little to none evidence and a lot of contradictions in the case of myths) - I would call that benign, as long as you also teach ethical behaviour.

1359. Fleabytes

Comment #131390 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 11:55 am

al-rawandi,


you naughty boy! Nudge nudge, wink wink.

1360. Fleabytes

Comment #131386 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 11:47 am

Good post, Bonzai.

But concerning the fact that P->Q is always true when P is false... I've never heard of "Modus Pollen". I know Modus Ponens (ponendo ponens), Modus Tollens and Modus tollendo-ponens (where you infer B from AvB and ~A).

But technically, you cannot infer Q from P, when P is false in P->Q, because that would mean that from P having the value 0 (false), you could infer that Q has the value 1 (true). But this is not the case. People often make this mistake, but it's really just the case the the entire statement "P->Q" gets the value 1 whenever P gets the value 0, because, as you said, "P->Q" only has the value 0 (is false) when P gets the value 1 and Q gets the value 0.
Once, however, P gets the value 0, Q can be either true (1) or false (0), and the statement will still be true. So you cannot infer the Q is true (1) from "P->Q" and P being false.

So in conclusion, you can't infer the truth of any Q from the falsehood of any P, but you can infer the truth of any "P->Q" from any false P.

Gödel Escher Bach is a very good book indeed. Interesting, magnificent even. But as an introduction into formal logic, there are more comprehensive and less, well, verbose works. GEB is more a work of art, but still a superb read.

1361. Moral thinking

Comment #131385 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 11:47 am

I know I should have known better... blinded by love - not sex. Although that was great, it wasn't essential - we had been best friends for half a year before we got together - and had about everything in common: Same taste in music (went to some great concerts), in films, in series, in literature (mostly poetry and the classics from Goethe to Hesse and Mann), science-geeks, atheists, you name it.
Didn't work out - she became somewhat of an asshole ;)

So yes, you're shallow ;P

And she didn't get half my shit - just half of what we bougt together... which was about 40 movies and a lot of Star Trek DVDs and VHS.

As I said - won't make that mistake again.


Spinoza,

I agree. Actually, I've made that point above - although you're wording is a little careless: "What people CALL ethics and what IS ethical" - sounds as if you're presupposing moral realism and a priviliged insight into first-order moral statements by philosophers. I'm a philosopher and I would doubt both :)

1362. Don't blame Islam for terrorism, expert says

Comment #131364 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 10:45 am

Indeed - with the past election in Turkey, the military actually stated that it might be 'displeased' (fight against) a non-secular government. Now they're allowing the headscarf back into universities. (Honestly, I don't have a legal problem with that - after all if it's only the students and not the teachers, it's their personal freedom of expression)

But the fact that Turkey is de jure secualr (Laizistic) has not much bearing on everyday life. I've been to turkey on holiday about 5 times. Outside of the club hotels and the tourist-centres, you still have a highly religious society, and the courts are not all that unbiased.

1363. Fleabytes

Comment #131359 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 10:32 am

And then of course there's this classic:

Monty Python's International Philosophy

1364. Fleabytes

Comment #131355 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 10:22 am

al-rawandi,

nice one, though I know it as concluding with "Fag!"

Got something for you, too: David Chalmers' collection of philosophical humour:

http://consc.net/phil-humor.html

A few of these are quite hilarious, such as "nominalist things" and "brain in a vat at the wheel of a runaway trolley" (if you happen to be familiar with the positions and thought-experiments these satirize).

The second one had me rolling on the floor.

1365. Over half of Britons claim no religion

Comment #131337 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 9:20 am

notsobad,

yes, but by far the most believe in a "higher order" or "guiding force" of some kind... ain't it sad?

As for America - as I have stated on another thread, I think the religiosity there has a causal relationship with the church-state separation and the free market ideology.

Once religion is free enterprise, it will get advertised accordingly - fervently, with psychological advertising tricks, even obtrusively.

1366. Moral thinking

Comment #131336 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 9:11 am

Well, she wasn't my wife (I'm 24 and that relationship lasted from 2002 to 2005), but my girlfriend - and we were so madly in love, and badly in need of Star Trek DVDs that we said we'd put our money together to buy them... what can I say? "I was young and I needed the DVDs"

Still - That bitch got my Star Trek DVDs!!!
Well, another mistake I won't repeat.

Actually I thought the first two seasons of Sliders were pretty good, especially since they incorporated some real science and had a few sociologically very interesting plots.

We both didn't like Stargate though... just not our thing.

And while I love Babylon 5 and think it has the most coherent, fluent, nuanced story-arch over 5 seasons that I have ever seen - it can be a bit militaristic at times.

Hmm... Iran or Saudi Arabia? No thanks, think of what I as an outspoken infidel would have to go through... I'm having a hard time with moderate central-european Religion as it is.

Shaden,
no, we split it equally - When it came to the DVD versions (TNG) "you get one season, I get another". With the VHS of DS9 and VGR it was "One video for you, one for me"

And while Wesley wasn't Star Trek's best invention, I don't dislike him as much as most people. There were a few good plots with him. Just my humble opinion.

(And let me apologize for the hi-jacking as well. Josh, you're free to move this to the alternate thread :)

1367. Moral thinking

Comment #131329 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 9:01 am

notsobad,

very true. They take Matthew 5, 3 to heart:

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

(In the German Luther-translation it actually says "blessed are the poor in mind"... fits much better)

1368. Moral thinking

Comment #131327 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 8:56 am

Actually, it's reason #6 not to have a shared account and not to buy stuff together.

And not only did I lose half of my Star Trek collection - sadly, she owned the complete Babylon 5 collection and the first two seasons of Sliders (after that it got crappy anyways)...

They're further down on my "to buy" list, but until I can afford it - the internet can be very helpful sometimes :)

1369. Moral thinking

Comment #131323 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 8:52 am

Shaden,

I know... huge fan, you should see my collection: All of TOS, all of TAS, about 90 % of TNG, half of DS9, 2/3 of VGR, all of ENT except for most of the miserable season 3 and all the movies :)
Acutally I once had everything, but my ex got half of the collection when we broke up, so I'm still working on completing my collection again... if only it wasn't so expensive.

al-rawandi,
One hit wonder indeed, X-Factor was crap. But he's quite a good director.


On topic again: I don't know if it's just me, but it seems somewhat of a stretch to say 'We've got an evolutionary explanation for this' and then invoking group selection of all things.

1370. Fleabytes

Comment #131312 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 8:21 am

al-rawandi...

I know - but not only my field of logic, also my field of philosophy of science.... and philosophy in general. And while Dan Dennett isn't a philosopher of science, I still admire his work greatly.

Your reply to that theist friend - nice :D

As for proving negatives and evidence - mustn't even depend on that - you can show from the defintion of "tuna" and "mammal" that "Tuna are not Mammals" isn't true. Of course, to construct these definitions you need evidence - but once they have been established, it's a matter of pure logic :)

Also, you can disprove the existence of something for which there can be no physical evidence - namely if the description/conception of it is contradictory. In that vein, I cannot prove that no deities exist, but I can disprove the Christian god without a problem, since the Bible is contradictory in its description of God, and some concepts of his attributes are even inherently contradictory. Of course theists never accept that, they attempt to weasle out of the contradiction by ex post facto ad hoc redefinitions so to twist the meaning of what is written to an extent that the proposed "true" interpretation has nothing to do anymore with what the statements actually say. I find it rather despicable and cowardly.

1371. Moral thinking

Comment #131308 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 8:13 am

Though I am intrigued by this association of liberality and loneliness. The article doesn't quite say which way Wilson and Storm think the causation runs however - whether liberality causes loneliness or whether loneliness causes liberality. Or, indeed, whether there is another, independent, factor causing both concurrently.

Or maybe they didn't speculate about causation and left it at having found a correlation?

al-rawandi,
yes, and in an admiral's uniform at that :)

1372. Fleabytes

Comment #131301 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 8:03 am

al-rawandi,

you are of course right, but it is still a helpful tool for us, so as to be able to point out exactly what the fallacies and inconsistencies etc. are, and to prove them. Once you got someone as far as (and this has happened to me in discussions with particularly naive theists) getting them to state something akin to "Well, then maybe logic is wrong or god isn't bound by logic", that's checkmate, because then they actually affirm a contradiction and by Ex falso quodlibet they cannot have any meaningful beliefs any more - so they better think again.

1373. Fleabytes

Comment #131299 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 7:57 am

Sorry for being so pedantic, but of course you can prove a negative. Either in a formal system with axioms and inference rules like predicate logic, where it really isn't a problem (and can for example be proven by first assuming the negation of what is to be proven and then deriving a contradiction from it)or by completely accounting for every element in a closed system and seeing that the sought-after element is not in it. How about this example of all of the above:

Let M be the set {1,2,4,5}

to be proven: 3 is not element of M

1)assumption of negation: 3 is element of M
2)From definition of set M: For all x that are element of M it is true that x is either 1 or 2 or 4 or 5 and there is no x that is element of M which is not either 1 or 2 or 4 or 5
3) from 4): 3 is not element of M
4) from 1) and 3): 3 is element of M and 3 is not element of M | Contradiction
ERGO
3 is not element of M

________________

(PS: sorry for being off topic)

1374. Moral thinking

Comment #131291 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 7:32 am

Why do I suddenly get the feeling that I have to watch the TNG episode "All Good Things.." again? :)

1375. Fleabytes

Comment #131287 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 7:29 am

al-rawandi,

yes "law of excluded middle" is just the English name for "tertium non datur".

But strictly speaking, ex falso quodlibet doesn't mean that there is no logical value to a conclusion derived from mutually contradictory premises(or one inherently contradictory), it means that from a contradiction it follows that every statement gets assigned the value 'true' (including the negation for every statement). Thus you get infinitely many contradictions.

What this means for the logical structure and value of anyone's whole system of beliefs is that if there is even one logical contradiction in it, everything breaks down, and the system then implicitly includes infinitely many contradictions which render everything worthless.

Ain't it fun?

1376. Moral thinking

Comment #131284 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 7:19 am

"Group selection", eh? Oh dear. Don't let Richard hear about this :)

And (I know, I have to say that) of course, that doesn't mean that ethics isn't still a major topic in philosophy. This study is about the why of behaviour, not about the existence, nonexistence of objective values, the justification or lack thereof for certain ethical systems... so I'm safe :)

1377. Fleabytes

Comment #131226 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 4:46 am

Just a quick note concerning logic.

We have
-tertium non datum (a third is not given, a statement is either true of false)
-ex falso (sequitur) quodlibet (from a (logically) false statement follows anything, meaning from a contradiction)
AND we have the fact that a conditional A->B is always fulfilled when A is false, which is an important point, too.

1378. Fleabytes

Comment #131136 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 2:15 am

The one who is the way? Must be a metaphor... the way to himself I guess. So if someone is a way and at the same time what lies at the end of the way, can we stop on him to pee while we're on the way to him? With the amount of water I drink, I always need such a break on long trips.

1379. Fleabytes

Comment #131132 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 2:11 am

Oh, did I write "poofs"?... Well, I'm not gonna correct it now - it may be bad humor, but it made me laugh.

1380. Fleabytes

Comment #131125 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 1:56 am

In fact - let us all construct poofs in first-order logic for them!

Q.E.D.

1381. Fleabytes

Comment #131122 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 1:51 am

Quetz,

Indeed!

It makes so much sense. It is still puzzling to me how anyone could not see that. But then, the mind of the believer is clouded, they have not seen the light of LOgic. I do hope they will be saved in the end, though. I shall prove a statement in first-order predicate logic for them.

Let me go first, for the greater glory of Reason, so that the belivers shall be saved:

1382. Fleabytes

Comment #131111 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 1:21 am

Quetz!

You blaspheme against reason! How dare you! The book of reason doesn't say that we're "supposed to" - we must, or otherwise we draw upon us the scorn and righteous anger of LOgic. In the book of John (Leslie Mackie), 2, 10-11 (page 53 in your version) it sayeth that "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching of rationality, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work."

And, according to the "second law" (=Deuteronomy) of reason, it says:


13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from REASON, which brought thee out of the land of stupidity.
__________________

Should be page 21 ... assuming that you do have the King Dawkins version.

1383. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130692 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 6:59 am

I'm sorry, you're being deliberately inflammatory, so I cannot be kind about this. First you're completely misrepresenting what I said (first response), then you just go on and on and on insulting the discipline I study while you have obviously not a clue about it, you make ridiculous dogmatic claims about the nature of theories (in this case you are making a hopeless attempt at philosophy of science yourself, namely metatheory) and finally you actually manage to repost your most stupid (I'm sorry, I cannot be kind about this) statement of all. "So? does it yield any new and interesting physics" - like accusing a geologist that his discipline is bullshit because it doesn't form rocks.

This discussion is terminated. You are obviously so dogmatically entrenched that you have to resort to the above things. It's a shame. You go on comment about this - feel free to do so if it gives you a false sense of victory in denying the validity of the scientific research and construction of valid theories that is going on in philosophy of science.

Good bye.

1384. Why Darwin matters

Comment #130683 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 6:41 am

Yes, everything clear.

In short, it's this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MlEDMW0YQU

I think we should give this link to every theist who starts spouting ridiculous bullshit here.

1385. Why Darwin matters

Comment #130670 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 6:28 am

God isn't made of nothing, he's made of goodness and holyness and wisdom and and fluffyness and happy-sunshinyness and righteous-wrathness and magic ghost stuff!

Seriously, how could you not know that!!!

1386. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130659 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 5:51 am

Of course, in some sense mathematics (and all sciences) are part of the natural world, as they are in essence brain activity (including the manipulation and understanding of symbols, observation etc).

But I think you were referring to the "objects" that mathematics studies versus the objects and processes that the empirical sciences study.

1387. Fleabytes

Comment #130657 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 5:46 am

What I am saying is that if evolution is indeed indifferent, if it neither knows nor cares, then it is meaningless to expend our energies in defense of the weak and vulnerable. The "survival of the fittest" theme will always have the last word. Human dignity is of no more importance than the dignity of compost.

Simply not true. Through our theoretical understanding and technological inventiveness, as well as through our social structure, we are shaping our own evolutionary path to some extent.
And please don't slip the "ethics aren't possible in materialism" issue in again. It has been dealt with too often to count.

btw, such statements, and those of wooter et al even more so always remind me of this wonderful, wonderful little sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MlEDMW0YQU

1388. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130647 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 4:43 am

Oh, the "confusing form with substance" thing again, the magical mystery of living, breathing mathematics and physics. No argument in this, sorry. It doesn't appeal and fails to account for the beauty of the living thing - I have reason to assume that you are scientifically minded, but I'm sorry to say this reminds me of anti-scientific propaganda.

So, mathematics is dynamic and changing and beautiful - I agree wholeheartedly, but to say that studying what theories are for empirical sciences in a formal way "fails to capture the rich texture" and is thus "missing the point" is just like saying that botany is missing the point because it fails to capture how beautifully the flowers sway in the soft breeze. In the end, plants are structures of cells with certain functions. In the end, theories are propositions in a (more or less) formal system. The point of the section from stanford was the problem of theoretical terms - which is a real problem... To which you proposed an answer - which I found to be missing the point. There are scientific research programs, and schemata (methods) of investigation, but a proposed law is no such thing. Mathematics is very formal indeed, it's form is correctly described in terms of axioms, inference rules, theorems and sentences.

Having read the article you linked to - I think I understand your motivations better. I found the article very interesting, but using some very cheap, even hateful rethoric that borders on propaganda. Arnold's case - even if he doesn't say so explicitly, and even tries to obscure it, is one of definition, of description, of semantic conventions (which becomes entirely obvious when we talks of matrices and "axioms" vs "properties").

You dislike the term "axiom", and talking of axiomatization and so forth. That's your prerogative, but it is irrelevant. That fact is that the modus operandi you dislike is succesful and therefore appropriate.

To get back to the topic of structuralism:
Theories in physics do include observational terms, theoretic terms and underlying conversion rules. You can't get around that - and I supposes you see no need to. But from this, problems arise - such as the problem of t-theoretical terms. There was no false definition, none that missed the point, for reasons already stated.


One research program of structuralism was the possibility of 'ramseyfication'. Again, allow me to post a small section from Standford:

Ramseyfication consists in the replacement of the theoretical terms of a finitely axiomatized theory by bound higher-order variables. This involves combining all the theoretical postulates (which define theoretical terms) and correspondence rules of a theory (which link some of these theoretical terms with observational ones) in one long sentence and then replacing all the theoretical predicates that occur in it by bound higher-order variables. This is the so-called Ramsey-sentence of the entire theory; in it no theoretical terms appear, but it possesses the same explanatory and predictive power as the original theory: it has the same observational consequences.
_______________

The prosed possibility of this is a highly interesting and non-trivial theorem. Sneed showed that it is possible for classical particle mechanics.

Furthermore, there is no confusing of form with substance, as it's not about what the theories model (their substance), but about what theories are (their form) - there's no confusion. Your objection is like saying that a neuroscientist studying how the brain represents the world is missing the point because he is not investigating what the brain models.

I must say it seems that you are feeling as if such research is somehow intruding your personal space...

Anyways - it is nontrivial, I find it interesting, and the questions of Philosophy of Science are extremely relevant. They allow and deserve to be studied scientifically, which is being done.

And now, pleeeeeaaaaase - let's stop this.

Thank you for directing me to the article by Arnold. It was interesting, informative and helped me to understand your motivations. The disagreement remains as long as you stand by your categorical statements on Philosophy of Science, but this discussion should have shown at least that this is not clear cut, and that there is a real science in philosophy of science, whatever you might think of its specific approaches and its value.

Can we keep it at that?

1389. Fleabytes

Comment #130608 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 1:40 am

The only 'evidence' possible for this is conceptual necessity - which in turn begs the question of whether the concepts are the only plausible ones. Which brings us to metaphysical parsimony, which together with the new scientific concepts that are invoked to explain the phenomena shows that the classical, metaphysical ones are either incorrect, unnecessary or both.

1390. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #130600 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 1:28 am

B-E-A-UTIFUL!

1391. Fleabytes

Comment #130591 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 1:01 am

There are problems with materialism from within classical, unrefined concepts of mind, reason and morality. These are quite default, and it takes some understanding of cognitive neurosciences and neural network theories to be able to present an alternative. These sciences are extremely young, so the knowledge that there already are very elaborate sophisticated concepts and models, even experimental corroboration is not that widely known. Futhermore, they haven't been popularized a fraction as much as physics and biology these days - so the public understanding is very low, which is why I vote for a cognitive neuroscientists as Dawkins' successor.

These classical concepts are indeed incompatible with materialism - but they have no basis in fact. Scientific alternatives are researched as we speak.

1392. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130586 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 12:52 am

Well, then elevated levels of promine and dopamine and serotonin in the temporal lobe, elicited by the practices of the religious sure would act addictive and self-reinforcing.

1393. Fleabytes

Comment #130585 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 12:49 am

But not even contemporary atheists are willing to grasp the implications of this: that talking about "human dignity" makes as much sense as talking about the "dignity" of caulilowers!

Cauliflowers don't conceptualize, they don't employ logic and reason, they don't have empathy - and certainly no awareness of self - no social structure.
Humans do. And that is all that is required for ethics.

1394. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130577 by MPhil on February 21, 2008 at 12:13 am

No, please - do so. It was off topic for far too long.

Promine... hmm... been reading alot about dopamine in that context, as well as unusually high activity in the temporal lobes.

1395. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130571 by MPhil on February 20, 2008 at 11:26 pm

I'm sorry, there is hardly an argument in your last post.

Studying formal systems is only part of philosophy of science, but a very major one (and logic, of course - was a philosophical invention).

Scientists do philosophy of science, but not in the way people who study logic and philosophy of science do it. It can be studied - research programs are done, just as in logic or mathematics.

You're right - the stuff that Sneed does for example is entirely impossible for anyone who is completely divorced from the actual theories and mathematics.

What it comes down to is: studying empirical sciences and their theories as phenomenona and then applying formal scientific methods (logic, set theory) to classify, categorize and formalize them is a valid science just like any other.

I take your point about the Bourbaki program, and I know it wasn't primarily metamathematics á la Russel and Whitehead. But they did attempt to integrate and formalize the various aspects into a formal system. Researching if such a thing is possible for empirical sciences and providing it for classica particle mechanics is what Sneed has done for examlpe.


There are really important questions in Philosophy of Science that the researching empirical scientists have an opinion about but don't study, which can and has been done fruitfully (vid Sneed, Suppes, Stegmüller, Moulines) Even to the more basic questions, reason can be rigorously applies, as is evident from the debates between Feyerabend and Lakatos. Also there's the theory of classification, the theory of measurement etc. All philosophers of science I know were brilliant when it comes to formal logic and set theory. That they don't incorporate the most modern of it might have to do with the fact that it isn't needed to describe scientifically and construct theories about the phenomena they study.



Let me post the first few paragraphs from the stanford-site I linked:


The three programs of Structuralism share the following characteristics and convictions:

* A metatheory of science requires a kind of formalization different from that already employed by scientific theories themselves.
* The structuralistic program yields a framework for the rational reconstruction of particular theories.
* A central tool of formalization is Bourbaki's concept of "species of structures", as described in Bourbaki (1986).
* Among the significant features of theories to be described are:
o Mathematical structure
o Empirical claims of a theory
o Function of theoretical terms
o Rôle of approximation
o Evolution of theories
o Intertheoretic relations


A physical theory T consists, among other things, of a group of laws which are formulated in terms of certain concepts. But an apparent circularity arises when one considers how the laws of T and the concepts acquire their content, because each seems to acquire content from the other -- the laws of T acquire their content from the concepts used in the formulation of the laws, while the concepts are often "introduced" or "defined" by the group of laws as a whole. To be sure, if the concepts can be introduced independently of the theory T, the circularity does not appear. But typically every physical theory T requires some new concepts which cannot be defined without using T (we call the latter "T-theoretical concepts"). Is the apparent circularity concerning the laws and the T-theoretical concepts a problem? Some examples will help us assess the threat.

An example
As an example, consider the theory T of classical particle mechanics. For simplicity we will assume that kinematical concepts, such as the positions of particles, their velocities and accelerations are given independently of the theory as functions of time. A central statement of T is Newton's second law, F=ma, which asserts that the sum F of the forces exerted upon a particle equals its mass m multiplied by its acceleration a.

While we customarily think of F=ma as an empirical assertion, there is a real risk that it turns out merely to be a definition or largely conventional in character. If we think of a force merely as "that which generates acceleration" then the force F is actually defined by the equation F=ma. We have a particle undergoing some given acceleration a, then F=ma just defines what F is. The law is not an empirically testable assertation at all, since a force so defined cannot fail to satisfy F=ma. The problem gets worse if we define the (inertial) mass m in the usual manner as the ratio |F|/|a|. For now we are using the one equation F=ma to define two quantities F and m. A given acceleration a at best specifies the ratio F/m but does not specify unique values for F and m individually.

In more formal terms, the problem arises because we introduced force F and mass m as T-theoretical terms that are not given by other theories. That fact also supplies an escape from the problem. We can add extra laws to the simple dynamics. For example, we might require that all forces are gravitational and that the net force on the mass m be given by the sum F=ΣiF i of all gravitational forces Fi acting on the mass due to the other masses of the universe, in accord with Newton's inverse square law of gravity. (The law asserts that the force Fi due to attracting mass i with gravitational mass mgi is Gm_gm_gi ri / ri³, where m_g is the gravitational mass of the original body, ri the position vector of mass i originating from the original body, and G the universal constant of gravitation.) That gives us an independent definition for F. Similarly we can require that the inertial mass m be equal to the gravitational mass m_g. Since we now have independent access to each of the terms F, m and a appearing in F=ma, whether the law obtains is contingent and no longer a matter of definition.

Further problems can arise, however, because of another T-theoretical term that is invoked implicitly when F=ma is asserted. The accelerations a are tacitly assumed to be measured in relation to an inertial system. If the acceleration is measured in relation to a different reference system, a different result is obtained. For example, if it is measured in relation to a system moving with uniform acceleration A, then the measured acceleration will be a′ = (a - A). A body not acted on by gravitational forces in an inertial frame will obey 0=ma so that a=0. The same body in the accelerated frame will have acceleration a′ = -A and be governed by -mA = ma′. The problem is that the term -mA behaves just like a gravitational force; its magnitude is directly proportional to the mass m of the body. So the case of a gravitation free body in a uniformly accelerated reference system is indistinguishable from a body in free fall in a homogeneous gravitational field. A theoretical underdetermination threatens once again. Given just the motions how are we to know which case is presented to us?[1] Resolving these problems requires a systematic study of the relations between the various T-theoretical concepts, inertial mass, gravitational mass, inertial force, gravitational force, inertial systems and accelerated systems and how they figure in the relevant laws of the theory T.

Similar problems arise in the formulation of almost all fundamental physical theories.

_____________
So, I know your reservations, and I agree to your point about real philosophy of science being impossible without some actual knowledge of the field of empirical sciences one models (of course) and a lot of knowledge in logic and set theory. This is all given. I disagree that the scientists themselves can do it just as well as people who study it scientifically and I disagree that it is worthless. Let's leave it at that - we aren't getting anywhere, just reiterating our differences. Furthermore, we have continued to be off topic for a little long. So, Josh might move this to the alternate comments thread if he wishes.

1396. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130556 by MPhil on February 20, 2008 at 8:45 pm

Anyway - I'm sorry, but it's 5:30 am here and I just got up shortly before we started this. Seems we're not getting anywhere so we might as well leave it at this disagreement. I still think it might be a good idea for you to take a look at it after all. If you don't think the questions are interesting, that's your prerogative, and I can only say that I find this somehow sad in the same vein as Richard Dawkins finds it sad when people aren't interested in science. But please don't assume that it cannot provide very good theories or isn't rigorously scientific without having studied it yourself.

Gonna get something to eat now and read the morning newspaper.

Have a nice (whatever time of day it is where you are)!

1397. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130554 by MPhil on February 20, 2008 at 8:38 pm

See, now that was a good comment - with at least attempts at real arguments.

The reflective scientist would have a private opinion and it is just as good the philosopher's, even though he may not be buttress it with big words and citations.

It's not about absolutes. What you don't seem to understand is that we can study that. We can actually form well-founded theories on whether scientific realism is true or not. A private opinion is not 'just as good' if it isn't as rigorously investigated.

You think scientific community wouldn't be able to ferret out pseudo science without asking the philosopher? Gimme a break.

They would be pragmatically able to do it, but provide a scientific justification? What I was saying was - if they do, as soon as they talk talk about demarcation criteria, they are doing philosophy of science.
You see, empirical scientists always make assumptions of philosophy of science, tacitly or explicitly. But as I said - this can be investigated just as rigorously as the empirical phenomena themselves.

And what about it? Is this a trick question?

No, I should have said "What about the actual trustworthiness and explanatory power of induction and deduction - another question of philosophy.

More big words. They may be interesting models that fall within the realm of mathematical logic, but these things are just models and they take on their own lives.

I am not confusing models with what they intend to model. The same thing is true of theories of empirical sciences themselves. Empirical science models the world - and rigorous philosophy of science models the structure, dynamics, explanatory power etc of empirical science. It is a science. Just as our brains process information and cognitive neurosciences model how they do that.

Btw, ever heard of the Bourbaki program for mathematics? That's what Sneed, Stegmüller and Moulines outlined for physics.

As I said, it's really just another science - not parasitic, and certainly not worthless. Again, the geology-analogy I gave is accurate.

Glad we're on a more civil level again.

1398. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130549 by MPhil on February 20, 2008 at 8:17 pm

Radesq, surely.

Philosophy of Science (especially metatheory of emprical sciences) tries to formulate a theory as to what theories in empirical sciences are, logically speaking, how the sets of sentences and mathematical symbols that make them up connect to each other and how they refer to and relate to data, among other things. They will provide an account of this in formal logic. Thus, they are constructing theories of how theories in empirical sciences work.

Furthermore - theories claim to be explanations, they claim to give us knowledge. This would be their 'epistemological status'. But why and how do we get knowledge from this, what exactly is scientific explanation?

And what is the difference between 'real' science like evolutionary biology and pseudoscience, like Intelligent Design. What makes a theory of empirical sciences scientifc? That is the question of the demarcation criteria.

Then, modern physics, and most other empirical sciences work with mathematics. Mathematics is a closed, formal system. What is the logical relation between this formal system, or the specific statements within this formal system, with the data of science and the knowledge it is supposed to provide in virtue of having explanatory power. What is explanatory power.


What is the difference between theoretical terms and empirical terms? How 'theory-laden' are observations? What can we infer from this concerning scientific 'realism' (The entities that theories postulate - do they actually exist or are they, too just models?)

Radesq (and Bonzai, too), have a look at this:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physics-structuralism/

1399. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130543 by MPhil on February 20, 2008 at 7:58 pm

Parasitic activity my ass. Metatheory of empirical sciences is one of the most rigorous fields there is. It's applied logic. But you wouldn't know that, would you... probably just having heard something second hand about Popper and nothing else. Try to get through the formal logic of "Logical Foundations of Mathematical Physics" and see if actually learn something.

What reason is there for assuming scientific realism?
You think demarcation criteria which scientists use naively everyday are not a problem and shouldn't be given a metatheoretical justification? Demarcation criteria between science and pseudoscience for example - a metalevel question which empirical science itself cannot answer, it's a topic of Philosophy of Science and everytime a scientist says something about it - he's doing Philosophy of Science. And mostly just taking things for granted.

How about inductin versus deduction?

How about commensurability or incommensurability of scientific paradigms? How about the Ramseyfication of empirical claims? T-Theoreticity and set theoretic predicates?

Tell you what, search "Logical structure of mathematical physics" in Google, click the Google-books link at the top and have a look at pages 41-44. Then come back and tell me that's not rigorous theoretical work.

It's mathematical logic including set theory applied to provide a metatheory and foundation of empirical theories.

If you think empirical sciences don't need a foundation, you're incredibly naive.

____________

And in response to your latest post: You have evidently no idea what modern philosophy of science is or does. You are willfully ignorant and arrogant in dismissing it without knowing it.
And the thing about metatheory "if they don't even know exactly what the "theory" is"... that proves it.
All theories in empirical sciences have similar structures. Empirical sentences, logical inferences etc. Metatheory of empirical sciences explains and sets a foundation for empirical theories in general. Philosophers of Science have a better idea of what constitutes a theory than empirical scientists themselves (although many, like Sneed are or were actually physicists!), because that is part of what they study - what are the demarcation criteria for "theory" what are their logical structures. How can their structure be described in a way that does justice to their supposed epistemological status. What is the relation between data and theory, between sets of propositions of the theory and their inferences. Honestly, have a look at Ramseyfication.

Look, you obviously don't know what modern philosophy of science is doing, and that many people doing it were empirical scientists themselves. So why not have a look and judge when you have attempted to understand it? Because you just 'know' that it's worthless.
You can't know that without having understood it. It's like a bible basher saying he doesn't believe in evolution because the Bible has all the answers he needs. It's like saying geology is worthless because it hasn't contributed to the formation of rocks.

1400. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #130535 by MPhil on February 20, 2008 at 7:35 pm

So, providing a theoretical, formal logic foundation for empirical sciences is worthless?

Just goes to show that you're incredibly ignorant and arrogant. It's not about 'making a direct contribution', but about metalevel explanation and actually putting empirical sciences on a theoretic groundwork that is logically and epistemologically sufficient. But you don't think that's worthwhile at all, do you?

Again, just goes to show.