Comments by Steve Zara

1351. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #205075 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 1:38 pm

Yes, of course, many Muslims don't know what it is they are advocating. At least, I don't think they do. That doesn't change the nature of the advocacy though. Even if they do not know it, they are, in fact and in reality, supporting murder.

You post useful information. I will need to research this much further before commenting again.

1352. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205071 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Comment #205069 by decius

I had forgotten that! It is great news for my theory.

Comment #205070 by Quetzalcoatl

Ah, but consider the Master, who reputedly exceeded the limit of 12.

The master was re-created by the Time Lords to help fight the Time War... it wasn't the same body that had used up its regenerations.

1353. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205066 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Comment #205063 by Quetzalcoatl

There is only one true regeneration. Can't have people like you going around with your heresies.

This does make one wonder if all the different reports of resurrection through history were all the same Time Lord. If there are more than 12, we can reject this hypothesis.

1354. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #205065 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 1:05 pm

Comment #205064 by Bonzai

I would be keen to know the truth about this.

1355. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205059 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 12:57 pm

Comment #205053 by Quetzalcoatl

It couldn't have been regeneration. They would not have recognised him. Also, his wounds would have healed.

1356. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #205054 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 12:50 pm

We rightly charge someone who has incited murder with murder.

No we don't. We charge them with "incitement", or so I believe.

Yet support for Shariah, by definition, is incitement to murder, rape, paedophilia etc.

I know very little about Sharia. But I think you are going way over the top here. Allowing people to use Sharia as a way of managing business practices is not equivalent to supporting murder.

I agree with you that we should not allow parallel legal systems.

1357. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205047 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 12:37 pm

Comment #205044 by AllanW

Actually, I prefer simpler explanations than supernatural entities. Alien mind control. Eating too much cheese (Philip - great minds think alike!) before bedtime. There are countless less-complex explanations we have to refute before getting to direct mental messaging by the Christian God. Even then, we are left with interesting questions, like how does he interfere with neurons?

EDIT: Sorry Alan, I was wanting to add to what you were saying, not contradict it.

1358. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205043 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Comment #205036 by SupportsChrist

How did the universe start? Big Bang? Big Bang from what.

The same inability for you to explain why you are here in the here and now is my reason for being unable to factually account and provide to you a provable answer.

We have actual evidence that the Big Bang happened, because we are here, and we see stuff like the cosmic microwave background.

We have no rational evidence of resurrections (well, not of humans. Some animals like rotifers are pretty good at it), so it isn't the same thing.

As for revelation, that isn't a reasonable explanation to provide to others. I suggest you look at some of the work of Derren Brown, the magician, about how to mess with people's minds.

Also, the well-known sceptic Michael Shermer once cycled himself to a state of exhaustion where he hallucinated he was abducted by aliens. Fortunately he was a sceptic and did not take the feeling seriously.

But, you are still not answering my question. This isn't about whether or not the resurrection happened. I think you agree that in normal life, it is only reasonable to accept that something happened if someone tells you how. If a garage brought your car back to working condition, you would not be happy if they said they did it "by magic". The same applies here. That someone came back from the dead is a pretty wild claim. I would need to have some idea how it happened - wouldn't you?

1359. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205031 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 12:14 pm

Comment #205029 by SupportsChrist

I am deeply sceptical that what you posted was a joke. Do you have evidence?

1360. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205030 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 12:13 pm

I am implying no such thing NOR would I ever ever ever impose such a thing.

That is what the story you quoted implies.

It is acceptable to have faith in anything that we don't know yet, because once people didn't know why the moon was visible but now they do.

Or perhaps that wasn't the point of the story. I am not sure what the point was.

It is my belief that when you take in the whole body of work that the Bible offers, it may bring to light some of the information you seek.

I know the Bible in some detail. I find no reference to any mechanism by which a human corpse can be revived.

1361. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205027 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Comment #205023 by SupportsChrist

You see, that is the problem with religion. Ask a simple question very politely, and you are accused of being "offensive".

But seriously, If you are going to make claims about the fundamental nature of reality in public, you should expect to be asked to explain it. You will find many people no longer will consider religious views somehow protected from questioning.

I invite you to continue to discuss your views, and to start to apply reason to them. You may find the consequences challenging but also hopefully exciting.

1362. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205022 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Comment #205020 by SupportsChrist

I am sorry, but that story just doesn't work.

It implies that we should believe just about anything without evidence. That seems just a bit silly to me, doesn't it to you?

Does that link provide an explanation of the mechanism of resurrection? If not, it does not seem useful in this case.

Besides..the Mets are playing the Phillies and I have "faith" they will win. But I cannot prove it at this time.

It is not quite on the same scale though, is it?

The Mets winning does not imply that all we know about the laws of physics, biology, chemistry and thermodynamics is wrong, does it? That seems to be the case for supernatural resurrections.

1363. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #205019 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 11:59 am

How do I submit an article again? Sorry, didn't know that was possible. Tell me, and I'll get right on it.

Click on the "Contact" link at the top of the page. I have never had any article I have submitted displayed, but you might be luckier!

I don't see why. If a maniac breaks into yur house at three in the morning, you don't waste time jawing with them, you call the police. Similarly with murderers, thieves and other riff-raff. Force is the only thing that works against them.

I assumed we were discussing changing people's ideas, not defending yourself from actual physical attack.

1364. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205017 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 11:57 am

Comment #205009 by henning

Well expressed.

You see, SupportsChrist, in a reasonable society where we all want to get along, we normally expect people to explain their views. For me, "God did it and you have to have faith" isn't enough. It isn't enough for you, if you change "God" to "Zeus". If someone said to you "I believe everyone should wear blue in support of Poseidon", you would probably not be very impressed.

What you believe privately is up to you, but I think that if you make public statements of belief, you are going to have to back them up if you want to be taken seriously.

1365. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205010 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 11:51 am

Comment #205006 by SupportsChrist

No, you still aren't getting what I am saying, I think.

Let me give an example.

Suppose a friend said that they had flown to another country. Whether or not you believe what they say, you at least have an idea how it could be done - via an aircraft, and we know how they work.

Now, you say that someone was resurrected. I would like to know how this was achieved.

1366. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #205007 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 11:47 am

Comment #204965 by Fanusi Khiyal

Steve may I make a suggestion? If you go over to Jihad Watch and read the archives for a while, especially on the subject of creeping Shariah. This isn't 'just a few stories' it's something alot more sinister.

That only backs what I am saying. If it is more than a few stories, let's see something more substantial here. If Jihad Watch is something we should read, get it linked to from here - submit an article.

How the blazes do you persuade people for whom reason isn't a value?

You can only use reason. There is no other choice.

1367. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #205000 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 11:40 am

Comment #204993 by SupportsChrist

You aren't getting the point of my question.

I am not concerned here about whether or not it happened. I want to know how it happened.

1368. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #204991 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 11:25 am

Comment #204987 by henning

I don't expect an answer.

The idea is to get religious people who make claims of the supernatural starting to think what those claims actually mean, and how absurd they are. I suspect most religious people just don't have the slightest idea of the bizarre implications of the use of the term "supernatural".

1369. Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Comment #204984 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 11:10 am

Comment #204969 by SupportsChrist

I am totally comfortable with the notion of a three day resurrection being a part of Jewish biblical writings prior to the arrival of Jesus.

What I have a bit of a problem is with this resurrection business. How did it happen? I mean, biology is quite complicated. As we have no idea how to resurrect people, it is quite a claim to state that it can be done based on writings in an old book.

So, as you believe this, you must clearly have some idea about how it happened?

1370. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204958 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 9:46 am

Comment #204956 by Linda

I feel empowered to be free and at every opportunity speak my mind when people say silly things citing religious superstition.

That is excellent. Such silly things should be pointed out at every opportunity. What I have a problem with is extrapolating from these situations to broader claims such as that the country as a whole is giving in increasingly to religious views.

Papers like the Daily Mail thrive by giving people a sense of mild but persistent anxiety about just about everything they can write about - immigrants, gay people, health scares and so on. I don't think we should fall into the same trap. There are real problems, but if we exaggerate them, even with good intention, that can lead to a form of paralysis, with people thinking that these problems are insoluble.

1371. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204948 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 9:14 am

Do you think that the absurd tribunal that awarded a dowdy woman 4,000 for refusing to remove her headscarf in order to work in a trendy hair salon was just? Sadly the salon owner was too honest for her own good.

Another "people do silly things" story.

The support for sharia in the UK is another sign of that culture being unwilling to protect Common Law.

Another generalization.

There are serious issues to be discussed here, but I don't think it is helpful to pick up on individual stories and try and generalize from them.

If anything, we have seen in the UK a very pleasing lack of pandering to religious views. Just consider how the Catholic church has been battling against rights for same-sex couples, and losing.

1372. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204931 by Steve Zara on July 6, 2008 at 8:09 am

Comment #204926 by Linda

If one wanted to go hunting for "people have funny ideas" stories, it would not take long to dig up any number.

We have seen the UK go absolutely nuts

No, the UK has not gone absolutely nuts. People may have silly ideas, but there is no point just upsetting people, especially in their own homes. People need to be persuaded that their ideas are silly in a civilized way.

I agree that ridicule can be part of such a way, but scare-mongering by saying that the UK "has gone nuts" is wrong.

1373. Prayer refusal pupils 'disciplined'

Comment #204719 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 3:28 pm

Comment #204717 by mordacious1

Shame on you. Few complain about not being able to see my face, just because I am a middle-aged fat and bald gay bloke.

1374. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204694 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 2:26 pm

I have some admiration for dogs, but I don't particularly like them.

I just don't understand this. How can one not like dogs? They love you! They will lick bits of you with an apparently unlimited amount of saliva. They will roll with enthusiasm in various substances with interesting aromas and then happily enter your house and rub against you and their furniture. They will decide that certain articles of clothing (shoes and socks) are designed for them to play with, and they will not only steal these things and slowly nibble them into oblivion, but they will come to sense your attachments to these things, and will sit in the middle of the room, with your favourite pair of socks by their feet, and bark at you - "come and see what I have found".

I fell in love with and married a Yorkshireman. I suspect that was part of a ploy by him to help deal with his dog.

1375. Prayer refusal pupils 'disciplined'

Comment #204692 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 2:16 pm

Comment #204689 by the great teapot

You just know when I turn up on a thread that there is going to be trouble.

I am just asking David Robertson, who seems to want to be a significant national figure, a few simple questions. These aren't complex questions about dogma, or theology. I just want to know if he is, or isn't a creationist wingnut. I am, I have to say, rather puzzled about why he won't answer.

1376. Prayer refusal pupils 'disciplined'

Comment #204687 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Comment #204682 by clearthinker

I am glad to hear that.

What are your views about teaching children about evolution, and biology, and the catastrophic history of our planet that occurred before the appearance of humans?

1377. Prayer refusal pupils 'disciplined'

Comment #204650 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 12:40 pm

Comment #204617 by bollocks

For crying out loud Zara

When are you going to stop being a

Drippy
Soft left
Let's wait and see
Nothing is simple
Not enough scientific evidence
Humanity can get along
It can't happen here

Pedant

Never, I hope.

I will argue with passion against ideas, but I have faith. I have faith in people. Almost all people are decent, and compassionate, and reasonable, given a chance. The problem with religion is that it prevents criticism of those who aren't, and allows them a safe space to develop and propogate ideas.

Most people who identify as Christian are decent, so are most people who identify as Muslim.

Most people sign up to traditions and ideologies without bothering to investigate the details. A typical muslim may tick a box on a questionnaire that asks about Sharia law without having much idea what Sharia law is. They tick the box out of solidarity for a community.

This is why education is important - so people realise the implications of what they are signing up to in terms of traditions and religious beliefs.

Until that has been achieved, we should not condemn a whole group because of every report of what silly individuals do.

1378. Prayer refusal pupils 'disciplined'

Comment #204590 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 10:00 am

I suggest we don't get too worked up yet.

from the article:

Cheshire County Council confirmed that parents had complained about the lesson, and said the circumstances of the incident were to be "thoroughly" looked into.

If this is just one teacher being nutty, and if there is a suitable response from the council, this could end up as a positive story.

1379. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204586 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 9:56 am

Comment #204578 by hmcook87

If Muslims find elements of western culture (such as a fondness for dogs) so offensive that they are unable to tolerate them, they need to go and find an enviroment that suits them better, not try to hijack the enviroment and change it to suit their personal needs.

Here in the UK, we live in a democracy. That means we will have a very wide range of views. Telling people who are born here that they should go elsewhere if they don't like the way things are does not seem the way a democracy should operate to me.

We should condemn views we dislike strongly, and we should do what we can to change people's minds by rational discussion. I don't think attempting to banish people who are UK citizens that we disagree with is acceptable.

We need to understand that these people have as much right to try to change our country to their way of thinking be legal means as we do to oppose them.

1380. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204567 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 9:02 am

Diacanu-

Can I just say how much I love reading your posts?

1381. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204565 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 9:00 am

The idea that the energy of the universe could be zero is pretty old.

There is a story that George Gamow told in his autobiography of a conversation he had with Einstein in Princeton during the second world war.

Gamow pointed out to Einstein that a star could be created out of nothing at a point, as the negative gravitational energy cancels the positive mass-energy.

"Einstein stopped in his tracks," says Gamow, "and, since we were crossing a street, several cars had to stop to avoid running us down."

1382. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204552 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 7:33 am

txpiper-

I see some baseline theoretical evolutionary concepts as hanging by a thread and some that just don't hang at all.

I forget if you have already explained this, but could you please address the question of why you consider yourself qualified to judge all of evolutionary theory, and claim that Dawkins, Gould, Watson, Crick, Maynard Smith, and thousands of others are all wrong?

Seriously, tell us why you believe this. We will not try and claim credit for the Nobel Prize you would surely be awarded for demonstrating such a huge shift in scientific thinking.

1383. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204549 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 7:28 am

txpiper-

Perhaps, but the argument is still a fresh as ever. The fatigue is on the part of folks who have never been able to successfully address the problem.

How does God make wings and eyes?

I've followed this pretty close ever since that story broke back in 2005. I haven't seen anyone express doubts about what was found since around that time.

This is an interesting point, not because of what txpiper says, but because I have just discovered with a bit of web research that organic material can survive a very long time: at least up to a million years or so.

This means that the discovery of soft tissue, even if it is true in this case, is of no help to txpiper at all. It does not limit the age of the fossil to a few thousand years.

1384. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204297 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 4:22 pm

Comment #204291 by Donald

I would bet that the Higgs is found, but I hope it isn't - it would be wonderful if we had to involve new physics.

1385. Sharia law 'could have UK role'

Comment #204295 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 4:14 pm

Comment #204275 by Fanusi Khiyal

Currently the political choice is the BNP or Shariah for all of us.

So, Fanusi, are you intending to be a BNP supporter?

I think you should be honest. There may be many of us here who are a bit cautious about you if this is the case.

1386. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204283 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 3:17 pm

Let's not discuss them NOT finding the Higg's particle. That is just too depressing to think about, since all the evidence points to its existence.

That is not depressing at all. It should be considered exciting. It means we have to consider new physics.

The wonderful thing about the LHC is that whatever the results, they will change our understanding of the universe.

I think it is wonderful to have forums like this to discuss such matters, and we now have a real expert - Oystein Elgaroy - who, I sincerely hope, will guide us through the results that come from the LHC.

1387. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204282 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 3:14 pm

Comment #204279 by Philip1978

The nutters get to me. I can be talking and corresponding with someone who seems sane at first. They ask reasonable questions. They seem happy to debate philosophical issues.

But then it turns out they are biblical literalists. That is the foundation for their lives. It is like discovering that someone you have known for a while is convinced that they had been abducted by aliens, and spent last summer on venus.

I think that such nutters should have warnings attached, like on cigarette packets... "these ideas can seriously damage your intelligence"

1388. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204277 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Comment #204253 by Philip1978

In addition to Diacanu's wonderful words -

I sense tension in your post. You have to not let these nutters get to you.

Creationists are basically conspiracy theory crackpots.

1389. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204268 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Comment #204224 by Oystein Elgaroy

It sounds like the paper, but what I am reporting is only my vague impression of what I remember!

Stenger's more pragmatic view avoids huge metaphysical commitments like that, so I think it has a few things going for it.

It seems to me to be a bit like the "selfish gene" idea as first proposed by Dawkins - a different perspective on things that can give a simpler and clearer view of what is going on.

Of course, the selfish gene idea turned out to be more than that..

1390. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204211 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 11:54 am

txpiper-

This is complete and total nonsense.

I have vast numbers of scientific papers to show my case. You have zilch.

Materialism is in and of itself a bias.

No, it isn't. This is "complete and total nonsense". Materialism is a tentative conclusion we get because exploring the world using experiment works. No better way of exploring the physical world has ever been suggested.

There is simply no need to involve the supernatural. It is surplus to requirements.

1391. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204201 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 11:42 am

Comment #204189 by Oystein Elgaroy

That is, the fact that the fine tuning of our universe seems unlikely says nothing about how likely it is that the universe is governed by natural laws alone given the fine tuning.

I think I remember reading a philosophical argument that said that the more fine tuned the universe looked, the less any argument for a deity being involved worked. This sounds weird, but I remember thinking it made sense at the time.

1392. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204181 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 10:04 am

Comment #204174 by decius

Here we are, poking holes and finding weaknesses in the work of an important author for "our side".

Apart from this being fun, I think it is important to do this. It doesn't show any lack of respect for the author, but helps to avoid a situation where we only follow certain scientists because we know of them through their books on themes of atheism. So, we would have Dawkins as "our" biologist, Dennett as "our" philosopher, Stenger as "our" physicist, and so on. Not that these people aren't great, but this unconscious selection can prevent us from seeing true controversy. Stenger's views are interesting, but I don't think they are mainstream. I am not sure there is a mainstream in some of the matters he discusses (e.g. "fine tuning"). There seems to be just a range of experts with different views.

Criticising authors like this can help prevent (unwitting) cherry-picking of scientific views.

1393. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204135 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 8:15 am

Comment #204128 by irate_atheist

What do you think, given the evidence presented so far?

I have had recent experience that txpiper is far from alone. His is just one strategy for trying to isolate his mind from reality.

Another I come across recently goes like this:

1. Science can't be shown to guarantee access to truth (induction is flawed)
2. Therefore, science is useless
3. So, I can believe whatever feels right to me as long as it is consistent and self-affirming.
4. The Bible looks good to me. I'll declare that it is consistent, ignoring all evidence to the contrary, and make it the basis of my life. Which is fine, what with science being all wrong and that.

1394. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204130 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 8:10 am

Comment #204125 by decius

That's the thing... I have read that book, and I still don't think he makes his case. That is my amateur impression anyway.

Comment #204127 by Oystein Elgaroy

If I understand Stenger correctly, he would say that there are no "laws of physics". Physicists make models to describe, e.g., the vacuum, and the forms of these laws look the way they look because we require them to be independent of viewpoint.

Yes, that is what I believe he is saying. I have found that a fascinating and revealing way of looking at things, but what it implies to me is that the there are laws, but they are probably just about as simple as they could be while still allowing for anything interesting at all.

We just happen to live in a domain where the Higgs vacuum expectation value is congenial to life. The anthropic principle again, but without the multiverse.

That has been one of my favourite solutions to "fine tuning".

1395. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204123 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 7:49 am

txpiper-

I think the evidence supports a catastrophic flood.

Sorry, but I just don't believe you. You know that you are no expert in science, and you know that all serious scientists in all parts of the world have researched this for centuries, and they all disagree with you.

You know this, so you know that the evidence does not support a flood, because you know that the chances of txpiper being more of an expert in geology and physics than all those people is, to put it mildly, somewhat unlikely.

I think what you are doing is simply repeating to yourself that the evidence supports a flood in the hope that you can shut out all those doubts from the real world.

Because, I mean, honestly, if you are at all sane, those doubts must be nagging at you. If they weren't, why would you be here?

1396. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204120 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 7:38 am

Comment #204112 by Oystein Elgaroy

The vacuum in quantum cosmology is a state without matter, energy, space and time. It is hard to imagine something having a higher degree of "nothingness" than that.

I am not sure I get what Stenger is saying about nothingness. What Stenger calls an initial "nothing" state seems to me to be what Martin Rees calls a situation "pregnant with the laws of physics".

Comment #204115 by decius

Do you have his book with you?

Somewhere in a pile :)

I think his point is that once symmetry breaking explains the origin of the law of physics, the whole concept of fine-tuning becomes redundant.

I don't get that, because the laws could have been different - the symmetries could have been broken differently, perhaps.

1397. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204111 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 6:49 am

Comment #204109

I am somewhat sceptical of how Stenger explains things... his arguments seem to be how just about everything is perfectly symmetrical apart from when it isn't, and nothing needs to be thought of as being at all "fine tuned", apart from that.

1398. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204098 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 6:19 am

Comment #204089 by decius

I have no idea :)

Fortunately, there is probably someone here who does!

1399. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204091 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 5:55 am

Comment #204086 by Fanusi Khiyal

I admit that the article I posted was not directly counter to your point, so here is another:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-the-curse-of-talibanised-islam-is-spreading-415548.html

I don't see it matters if the article is full of tired apologetics. That was not the point I was trying to make. It was that we have potential muslim allies. I do understand the points you are trying to make, but your sweeping generalisations may, I feel, do more harm than good. The best way to deal with things right now, in a non-ideal world, is to attempt to ally with "moderates" against "fundamentalists".

1400. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204082 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 5:26 am

Comment #204075 by clodhopper

That is a good parallel.