101. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #175630 by Enlightenme.. on May 5, 2008 at 6:28 pm

94. Comment #175591 by Vinelectric on May 5, 2008

It is astounding how infrequently one hears such candor among the public voices of "moderate" Islam.


Sam's favourite cliche and shameless lie! Remember this headline?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm


BBC: More than 500 British Muslim religious leaders and scholars have issued a fatwa in response to the London bombs.

..The tragedy of 7 July 2005 demands that all of us, both in public life and in civil and religious society, confront together the problems of Islamophobia, racism, unemployment, economic deprivation and social exclusion - factors that may be alienating some of our children and driving them towards the path of anger and desperation..


..We also call on the international community to work towards just and lasting peace settlements in the world's areas of conflict and help eliminate the grievances that seem to nurture a spiral of violence.

We also urge the media to refrain from character assassinations of our reputable scholars and denigration of the community.

We reiterate our resolve and commitment to work towards nurturing an identity that is true to its faith and its rights and responsibilities of British citizenship.

Finally, we pray to God Almighty to bless all the people of the world with His peace and mercy. And finally, Praise be to God, lord of all the worlds.

102. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #175605 by Enlightenme.. on May 5, 2008 at 5:19 pm

Goldy's link;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7381633.stm

They promise to "plant more fruit trees."

Strange fruit ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs

103. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #175577 by Enlightenme.. on May 5, 2008 at 4:10 pm

70. Comment #175459 by clearthinker on May 5, 2008 at 1:09 pm

This is the best and most stimulating article I have read on this website. Congratulations to Sam Harris. The question is what can be done about it?

104. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #175490 by Enlightenme.. on May 5, 2008 at 1:49 pm

^ I reckon he's single-handedly added at least a dollar to the forward price Al!

Mind you, he'd have to go some to catch Bush!

105. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #175448 by Enlightenme.. on May 5, 2008 at 12:46 pm

Comment #175391 by MarcCountry on May 5, 2008:
"it is nonetheless true that the problem of fundamentalism exists in all religions."


Yep, hence the Israeli state's Lebensraum.

And the American administration's acquiescence to the continued updating of the 'facts on the ground' (copyright: GW Bush)

This challenge was a glaring omission when Sam Harris debated Rabbi Boteach, by the way - something I was more than a little disappointed by.

(For balance here - whilst understanding the point in Sam's article Re; debate misdirection highlighted by Max D (Post #52))

106. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #175426 by Enlightenme.. on May 5, 2008 at 11:45 am

"...in such a manner as to inflame the Muslim community. The point is that only the Muslim community..."

As I first read the text,
I did rather find myself wishing that there were ['so-called'] quotes around the term 'muslim community'

I do not wish to see [us] going down a road of applying 'the cricket test', and forcing people to choose 'with us or against us'.

I just know that if I were from the 'muslim-origin community' I would be keeping my head down, hoping (wishful thinking?)it all goes away, and not standing out to be noticed by peers.

107. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #175416 by Enlightenme.. on May 5, 2008 at 11:21 am

Comment #175351 by kaiserkriss (#13)

You agree with Sam, but he is quoting Ibn Warraq!
(Though Sam obviously agrees with Ibn Warraq.)

[/pedantic]

108. Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Comment #175388 by Enlightenme.. on May 5, 2008 at 10:35 am

This all started a long time ago, when the UK started handing out Lordships and Knighthoods to the likes of Lord Ahmed and Sir Iqbal Sacranie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazir_Ahmed,_Baron_Ahmed


On June 19th 2007 Lord Ahmed criticised the honouring of Salman Rushdie with a knighthood because of what Lord Ahmed saw as Rushdie's offensiveness to Islam.[7] He was reported to have said, "It's hypocrisy by Tony Blair who two weeks ago was talking about building bridges to mainstream Muslims, and then he's honouring a man who has insulted the British public and been divisive in community relations."[8] "This man not only provoked violence around the world because of his writings, but there were many people who were killed around the world. Forgiving and forgetting is one thing, but honouring the man who has blood on his hands, sort of, because of what he did, I think is going a bit too far." He also said on BBC Radio 4's PM programme that he had been appalled by the award to a man he accused of having 'blood on his hands'.[9][7] In an interview with Le Figaro, Lord Ahmed reportedly said: "What would one say if the Saudi or Afghan governments honoured the martyrs of the September 11 attacks on the United States?" .[10]


That's "martyrs" in Lord Ahmed's quotes by the way, which can be read.. ambiguously... of course.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iqbal_Sacranie

During the Satanic Verses controversy, Sacranie was noted to have commented in regard to the Salman Rushdie, "Death, perhaps, is a bit too easy for him… his mind must be tormented for the rest of his life unless he asks for forgiveness to Almighty Allah."

..knighthood in the 2005 Queen's Birthday Honours for "services to the Muslim community, to charities and to community relations."
He said "that bringing in 'gay marriage' did "not augur well" for building the foundations of society" [sic ; Wikipedia entry has scare quotes and quote quotes inside quotes!]

109. Muslim Rebel Sisters: At Odds With Islam and Each Other

Comment #174705 by Enlightenme.. on May 3, 2008 at 9:53 am

Fanusi:
"you could always look at the Undercover Mosque documentary and see what Muslim leaders in Britain are saying."

*Some* self-appointed leaders.

I live in the city where a disaffected youth was recently arrested with bomb-making materiel - He was reported to the authorities by attendees of the Mosque local to me.

110. Muslim Rebel Sisters: At Odds With Islam and Each Other

Comment #174666 by Enlightenme.. on May 3, 2008 at 6:17 am

38. Comment #174643 by Christopher Davis on May 3, 2008

"Jiten,

Virtually every event can be broken down into both proximal and distal causes. In this case however, the only cause that really matters is Islam.

This is a religion that teaches children that the West is inherently evil and the cause of all their problems. It is a religion that condones (hell, demands) violence against non-believers.

The reason that the terrorists attacked New York as opposed to New Zealand or Belgium is the same reason a person deadset on eliminating titties from the world would go after Pamela Anderson as opposed to Debra Messing."

"..the only cause that really matters is Islam."

A reason to feel sympathy for Irshad Manji's proposition that Islam has been hijacked for neo-panArab-nationalism, like I said; by Qutbism, after his disillusion with the failures of Gamal Abdul Nasser, he only then turned to making Muslim-brotherhood ideology his cause.

It's this ideology - "that teaches children that the West is inherently evil and the cause of all their problems." - I doubt I could read that in the Koran, it's more that scriptures can always be made to fit the cause isn't it?

Totally agree with your last point - what I said, except replacing titties with Usury!

How do we argue against this Ideology with it's clever use of 'Islam is a full system for living life' (What religion wasn't??)

The 'clear and present danger' is that we are perilously close to having 1.6 billion people identify with the cause if we're not careful.

111. Muslim Rebel Sisters: At Odds With Islam and Each Other

Comment #174508 by Enlightenme.. on May 2, 2008 at 2:15 pm

^ Hey, I'm very partial to Luther! he's my number 2 antihero along with the bloke he inspired - King Henry 8th (another nasty bloke!)

Why they struck the WTC was the symbolic arrogance of its name - the very center of all the world's trade - the magnificent
*Temple of Usury*

112. Muslim Rebel Sisters: At Odds With Islam and Each Other

Comment #174465 by Enlightenme.. on May 2, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Al, I didn't know that.

From what I'd read she didn't sound like a prostitute at all, but rather a girl who really liked him, and when it came to her suggesting they should get jiggy, and that sex was 'normal', elicited a shocked reaction in him that seemed to leave him deeply scarred.

He also was deeply suspicious of the West back in '48 before he even went to the U.S.

PS My 'closet' statement was in jest, poor taste I know, sorry!

Even in his own writings, he goes on about how he could never find a 'pure' enough woman, and ended up a repressed batchelor.

This repression thing is very prevalent in religious sickness. It kind of takes one to know one, I spent twenty-odd years in that state (and I wasn't even a bloody catholic - just CofE, it's so not fair!)

113. Muslim Rebel Sisters: At Odds With Islam and Each Other

Comment #174417 by Enlightenme.. on May 2, 2008 at 11:53 am

"not just Islam, this was the core of Islam"

Filtered through the fascist mindset of Qutbism.

The man was hideously sexually repressed, possibly a closet even!

114. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #172614 by Enlightenme.. on April 29, 2008 at 7:22 pm

Wooter managed to get an H in blind watcmaker at last.
Progress.

115. Pat Condell: Anthology DVD available now!

Comment #172554 by Enlightenme.. on April 29, 2008 at 6:05 pm

Nah, I much prefer to see a Rev Wright sketch.

"If ya got some white.. friends, they'll be clappin' like this.. ya'all."

It's got a bit more 'edge' to it.

He speaks as a pastor, he says.

116. How to reconcile Richard Dawkins?

Comment #172353 by Enlightenme.. on April 29, 2008 at 1:51 pm

Good point, Jiten.

I'd say nothing like as many, or prepared to take as great a risk.

And as for Brain Surgeon, well forget it - I'll just take the safe desk job planning tractor requirements for the commissariat (if the pay's the same)

117. How to reconcile Richard Dawkins?

Comment #172336 by Enlightenme.. on April 29, 2008 at 1:43 pm

^ I thought that was llamas Al?

(They're saying the next one will be outside Tibet though - perhaps Bognor Regis)

118. How to reconcile Richard Dawkins?

Comment #172330 by Enlightenme.. on April 29, 2008 at 1:34 pm

Jiten,
Imagine no brain surgeons
Imagine no inventors
Imagine no risk-takers at all.

119. How to reconcile Richard Dawkins?

Comment #172322 by Enlightenme.. on April 29, 2008 at 1:22 pm

"the fellow who straps dynamite to his belly and blows himself up with forty or fifty other people is doing so because he was promised 72 virgins in the afterlife - his religion coerced him into doing this."


"Muslim suicide bombers don't do their deeds because of those virgins, at least most of them i think. They do it for the same reason that a soldier has for sacrificing himself for his country, for the greater good. They feel that they are at war, a "holy war" even. So, religion is part of the problem of course."

No chance people might sacrifice themselves for the glory, for the Ummah, for the brotherhood, for $10,000 for your family, for Palestine??

I am not at all convinced that belief in Holy war is necessary in all cases.

120. Orangutan attempts to hunt fish with spear

Comment #171706 by Enlightenme.. on April 28, 2008 at 5:46 pm

I so much want him to succeed!
Fantastic.

121. Does science make belief in God obsolete?

Comment #171255 by Enlightenme.. on April 28, 2008 at 11:52 am

Comment #170772 by riandouglas on April 28, 2008

"Enlightenme... did you get dizzy?"

It was sort of like watching one of Reverend Dark's 'accomplishments' undergoing coriolis effect as it slips away to oblivion.

Biz: discourseframe: god=morality source:scripture
Player2: dicourseframe: evidencesource:invalid
All your base are belong to us. Gameover.

122. Does science make belief in God obsolete?

Comment #170767 by Enlightenme.. on April 28, 2008 at 1:33 am

Bizarro
"[ Circular semantics] "

Well.. can't argue with that.

123. Does science make belief in God obsolete?

Comment #170377 by Enlightenme.. on April 27, 2008 at 5:41 pm

"Comment #170283 by Geoff on April 27, 2008
..Obsolete [?];

To me, it mainly brings up ideas of thermionic valves..."


Yes, it's kind of like Led Zep bought out on CD's isn't it. Who ever asked us if we want to hear the squeeking of the bass-drum pedal? I want to hear it with the original 'warmth'. I want.. I want...

124. Does science make belief in God obsolete?

Comment #170120 by Enlightenme.. on April 27, 2008 at 12:13 pm

"Aliens could create Universes. The contradiction doesn't exist. Dawkins is talking about aliens in our universe. Why not aliens in another universe that created ours? That's the extra step that means his argument, which is against a creator 'god' is, well its laughable."

Your forgetting, the ultimate regress question is covered by RD.

125. Does science make belief in God obsolete?

Comment #170099 by Enlightenme.. on April 27, 2008 at 11:27 am

"The term "obsolete" is a good one, as it does not mean the existence of gods has to be conclusively disproved; simply shown to be not reasonable, and not useful in an understanding of the world."

That is a very big task though, as collective feigning of belief in the 10-commandment-giver is still reasonable and useful to lots of people.
Ah, nother person beat me to it (#34)

I like Shermer's short answer, and can feel people bristling already!

126. Soldier Sues Army, Saying His Atheism Led to Threats

Comment #169752 by Enlightenme.. on April 26, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Comment #169727 by Adam Morrison on April 26, 2008

"...I'm thinking of trying to do my PhD studying the psychological effects of combat training on aggression and how martial training affects perception of enablement of violence. But I'd like to do it in a participant observational approach (ie I join up, go through basic, infantry training, etc. Instead of just asking soldiers about it)."


Huh?
You're gonna say that bull in the interview are ya?
I've 'done my bit', and have earned the right to expect to sleep soundly in my bed being protected by the next generation prepared to do their duty, after my tax dollar has been used to train them up.
..soldier.

127. Soldier Sues Army, Saying His Atheism Led to Threats

Comment #169723 by Enlightenme.. on April 26, 2008 at 4:28 pm

"last album came with an insane stereoscopic viewer"
I love that - and all their Geiger-ish imagery.

I used to sell cd's, but we've had to move on to rock clothes (and emo)

I'm gonna sell atheist shirts one day, along with the 'Jesus is a ****' shirt by Cradle of filth (Yeah!) when I slide that past me 'Bro!

I'm ex-airforce, and my dog-tags said CofE
majority of the guys (I'd of guessed) were Agnostic, but faith generally never came up.

128. Soldier Sues Army, Saying His Atheism Led to Threats

Comment #169720 by Enlightenme.. on April 26, 2008 at 4:24 pm

I remember this question of who d'you want fighting for your side coming up somewhere recently, was it in one of the Beyond belief talks, or the AA talks?
Possibly Dan Dennett?

129. Soldier Sues Army, Saying His Atheism Led to Threats

Comment #169712 by Enlightenme.. on April 26, 2008 at 4:12 pm

"Comment #169688 by DamnDirtyApe on April 26, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Maynard James Keenan, lead singer of my favorite band (ever) was a lieutenant in the US Army. He was a forward artillery observer.

This is one of his best:

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=2502

I think you guys can figure out where he would stand on this issue. "


Can't speak to my brother at the moment, Tool and Deftones are his 2 favourite bands, I really liked the first album, but have moved on to things like QOTSA and Mastodon.
But, on a cursory look at those people figuring it out, it shifts between hitch-hikers guide-ttg, Jung, and 'christ-consciousness' ??

I had to laugh at the dude who thinks aborigines only have 44 chromosomes, and that we have 46 "plus two sex-chromosomes" :)

130. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167916 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 12:23 pm

The map of Dinosaur extinction theory/beliefs

I would seriously like to know the origin of this, erm, allusion, illustration, whatever it is?


Anyone? (Even what the correct term is!!)

131. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167720 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 9:32 am

Rev, You've tickled me 'ol tear-ducts again, I needed that - I've gotta go for a lie-down.

132. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167700 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 9:17 am

^ He employs a 'Reason sieve', apparently Dinah,
I'm fucked if I can find a reference.
:)

133. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167681 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 9:04 am

Don't get me wrong Tera, I'm (somewhat) pleased about $130 oil - though I'm very concerned that people have reached for/persuaded us that biofuel was supposed to be an easy answer, and people are rioting & dying right now - and we don't know if commodity speculators have any 'Reason' whatsoever do we now?
The mind of the market, Social-economic Darwinism - Fuck it.

134. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167663 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 8:46 am

Teratornis: I don't know how to answer fully, but I know I was hooked, and I know I've been persuaded*. And without any bullshit whatsoever this; watching the 1991 Christmas lectures had a great part to play. The map of Dinosaur extinction theory/beliefs, though not a clincher, will go with me to my grave.

*Edit; About god, not peak oil (yet)

The word Buggered is part of my lexicon, and you remind me of it's old pejorative context, however, as in the use of the phrase 'a bit gay' for certain concepts like 'Lame', 'feeble attempt', 'naff', or 'so last week', the language (UK) is in flux (evolution, you see)

"There are still no humans who commit 100% to reason"
Thank christ for that - I'm just trying on 50% Vulcan for now.

135. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167589 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 7:23 am

I'm rather hoping rotator was *trying* to be tongue in cheek.

You see.. I *thought* the same type of thought.

Rotator.. do you at least know occasional emoticons?

@bugaboo; "..how to do a wink with the keyboard"

colon/semicolon then close parenthesis for smile/wink
But only welcome when they seem necessary.

136. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167571 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 7:07 am

Dinah, I really apologise if you were being tongue in cheek ok :)

137. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167560 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 6:59 am

"not something to stir the blood in a sexual way I fear"

Useful for stirring the blod in other ways though (Freudian typoslip blod - Hitler)

I was thinking Imams and their forehead raisins &c.

.. and archbishops of canterburys

138. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167549 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 6:48 am

"Consider yourself pwnd"

Mwaa haaah haah

*tears*

139. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167543 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 6:42 am

My neice commented to me on Sunday that her new boyfriend has a picture of himself without his sideburns and '(soul patch thingy?)

She said 'ugh'

I 'love' Dennett's distinguished beard!

140. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167536 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 6:37 am

I di wonder where in Hades you get the strength to deal with the reason sieve ;)

141. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167531 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 6:27 am

Oi, fuzzface [Steve z/eepeist]

I wanna see your answer to Dinah's Query - it needs answering if we're going to require answers from Wooter surely to god? :)

142. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #167485 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 5:16 am

Rar: (#137)

"...angry and derogatory. A weird thing for enlightened, rational, unbiased people to do. For a group so certain in their beliefs, there seems to be a strong need for reassurance in the posts."

I refer you to Fugazi's post (#132), just above yours;

"...i bristle with anger..."

It's the sheer desolate waste of endeavour, it is such a crying shame you cannot help but feel anger, as well as sympathy, I do so beg for you to at least try to understand that.

The real hard problem is trying to sort the genuine victims (Sympathy)..
From the Apologists (Anger)

Hence the general feeling - Winston (should *know* better) - Apologist - Anger.

143. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167453 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 4:18 am

^ "Can't we force these people.."

Careful CJ, they'll be quotemining ;)
I thought it was Cambridge theologians?
Ah, no, it's Oxbridge theologians, they took care of that one. (Verylee, post #12)

144. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167443 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 3:50 am

^ "Thus I see the use of the name of the University as an insult"

This will have to be handled with kid-gloves won't it?

In light of the obvious 'Expelled' bleating on free speech grounds that any attempt at dis-associating pressure will bring about.

I can see how you can get the 'non-subject' of theology past, as 'god' does exist as a subjective object/concept.

But Atheology is an 'empty set' - even my non-philosophy brain tells me there's no subject.

Oh of course, I see it now - we're studying an Ism,
Why didn't thet say that, oh - they did.
Marxism Stalinism Nazism Atheism.

The agenda I see is destroying the 'Out' campaign.

145. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167401 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 2:10 am

^ Richard is quite clear on the fact that he was ready to address it earlier but his publishers were more open to it post-911.
He must feel rather sad that Douglas Adams didn't get to see it.

Before 911 I think it appeared to be a 'beneath' Science question.

There's also the problem of the 'Martydom' aspect of even going there from Richard's pre God-delusion reputation - a sacrifice for which we are all indebted.
(Oh fuck did I really say that)

146. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167394 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 1:53 am

"is there a... particular reason why The God Delusion is apparently the "most notorious" of them all? Why is The God Delusion so special?"

(imo)
It's because the take home message is that the existance of a creator is unequivocally a Science question.

It blows NOMA clean out of the water.

Oh, and the Delusion bit of course.
I gradually recovered from my faith over ten or fifteen years ago, and yet I can still 'feel' the delusion, it (something from nothing?) never ever truely goes away, I still need Richard's book in the house 'in case of emergency'. (emergence-y)

147. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167393 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 1:45 am

"45. Comment #167283 by dragonfirematrix on April 23, 2008 at 8:17 pm

6) Stop all the god-damn religious wars "


You forgot to specify that he must leave some rather solid information as to which god he was that did it.

25/04/08:
[/Stop all the god-damn religious wars]

148. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167389 by Enlightenme.. on April 24, 2008 at 1:37 am

^
"keep the faith guys"
[/irony]

Remember if you forget to close italics & the like it sticks on following posts

149. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167049 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 3:09 pm

D'you think the diviners are on the run?
Excellent concept to keep them in tenure in a post-theistic age.

150. Investigating Atheism

Comment #167038 by Enlightenme.. on April 23, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Verylee:
"...want to try to intellectualise the concept of Atheism"

Exactly my kind of visceral reaction.

Teach the controversy?

What controversy - religions exist, I have evidence, but gods?