101. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59081 by heathen2 on July 27, 2007 at 8:18 am

the_assayer,

I think that if parents stop imposing their religious beliefs, then kids would be able to choose for themselves when they start forming opinions on the subject. Some would surely be religious, I suspect a good number would not.

Your question about what is imposing is a good one. To me, having to pray and go to church is an imposition. I know others would disagree. Once in awhile, my parents would take us to some religious prayer/festival type thing. It was maybe once a year at the most, the priests did all the chanting, it was boring mostly. I did not consider that imposing, but once a week it would have been. When I went to catholic school, we had to go to mass on sundays. That was imposing and a total waste of my time.

I completely agree that to be exposed to a wide range of ideas is best. I don't know that you could convince a die hard religious person to truly do that. They are too afraid that exposure of this sort will hurt their children somehow.

I don't have a solution to convince believing (the imposing type)parents to allow their children free access to ideas and I don't think that they could be convinced religion is bad. If that could be done, you would not have the problem of indoctrination into religion in the first place. I notice that it is hard for me to even broach the subject with my religious friends because I don't want to sound "preachy" or tell them how to raise their kids. I end up not saying anything.

Hopefully, in the future, the moral zeitgeist will have shifted such that society as a whole will disapprove of the religious indoctrination of children in the same way that now society (Western society at least) disapproves of corporal punishment for example.

102. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59067 by heathen2 on July 27, 2007 at 7:17 am

Northern Bright-
Well written and explained. I wonder, during your time as a believer, did you have an awareness that you believed because as you say, you "needed" faith? And that deep down somewhere, you knew it was just made up?

I wondered because, like some of the others who post here, I grew up unfettered from religion, and try as I might, it is difficult to understand the experience of believing.

103. Camp Joins Summer Fun With Teaching Hindu Faith

Comment #59066 by heathen2 on July 27, 2007 at 6:58 am

As is the case with christianity, islam, etc., the moderates, agnostics and atheists within hinduism end up shielding the nutjobs within the cloak of religion and culture.

I say throw the baby out with the bathwater.

104. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #58859 by heathen2 on July 26, 2007 at 12:38 pm

No, no need to keep one's faith a secret from children. My mom was and continues to be a believer (Hindu) and practices her religion through prayer on a daily basis, yet she never imposed this on me. She encouraged me to develop my own opinions regarding the cosmos and philosophical questions. I'm so grateful to her for this, and I've told her so.

105. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #58853 by heathen2 on July 26, 2007 at 12:16 pm

Elli - I agree with you on the last point especially. Many of my friends have their kids attend "Wednesday night" activities at their church in addition to subjecting them to sunday school and sunday services.

The Wednesday stuff occurs under the guise of "fun", they play games, do activities, a little prayer, some infusions of biblical "morality" by their friendly instructors. By the way, they get points and are rewarded if they bring kids outside of the church into these. One lady repeatedly "invited" my son. I had to firmly say no several times. It made me so mad!

The way fides describes it makes the indoctrination of children sound so benign, but it is NOT. It makes me cringe, it is harmful to the kids. I am so disappointed in my friends who do this to their children. Now as the kids are in their teen years, they worry they their kids are susceptible to negative influences and are not able to judge for themselves. Well duh! How about teaching your kids to think for themselves instead of praying on their knees.

Sorry, this was a rant. You can tell I feel strongly about this.

106. The hitch in Hitchens' thinking

Comment #58845 by heathen2 on July 26, 2007 at 11:49 am

Hedges wants to insrtuct Hitchens on the workings of the human mind:

one wants to hand him Freud for Dummies — that we are all driven and profoundly affected by an array of mysterious nonrational forces such as beauty, grief, love, the yearning for meaning, alienation and the specter of our own mortality.

107. Camp Joins Summer Fun With Teaching Hindu Faith

Comment #58621 by heathen2 on July 25, 2007 at 12:04 pm

Parents like to get rid of their kids for awhile, thus the notion of summer camp. Doesn't matter what the kids want.

108. Red Mosque Fueled Islamic Fire in Young Women

Comment #58620 by heathen2 on July 25, 2007 at 12:00 pm

Quetzalcoatl, if I worship the sun already like George Carlin does, can I worship you too? In other words, are you open to being part of a pantheon of gods?

109. Camp Joins Summer Fun With Teaching Hindu Faith

Comment #58609 by heathen2 on July 25, 2007 at 11:28 am

"People can now get a BSc in Astrology"

Are you serious?!

110. Camp Joins Summer Fun With Teaching Hindu Faith

Comment #58608 by heathen2 on July 25, 2007 at 11:25 am

I agree with bonzai, duff, and others. Hinduism is no better than all the other religious nonsense. I was raised in with Hindu culture transplanted to the USA, but was fortunately free from religious indoctrination.

Although I understand how the caste system came about as a religious (control mechanism) and social system, it makes me sick to my stomach. A couple of years ago, a lady that I struck up a conversation with (here in the States), started asking whether I knew others of my caste in the area! She knew my caste from my last name. So rude but the only time I have ever run into such crass behavior.

I wish the camp could teach maybe other aspects of Indian heritage such as mythology (tell the fairy tales as just fairy tales, they are so interesting), history, crafts, traditional songs, dance, etc. Leave out the useless chanting, verses from religious and other useless stuff.

111. Camp Joins Summer Fun With Teaching Hindu Faith

Comment #58584 by heathen2 on July 25, 2007 at 9:10 am

"Some campers finished reciting Chapter 4, Verse 33 of the Bhagavad Gita in Sanskrit and clamored for a translation. Swami Dheerananda shrugged off their request, explaining later that they were too young."

I had a similar experience when I got married. The Hindu priest told us to repeat the vows in Sanskrit then he would translate - after we had already made the vow. Not a big deal at the time, and we still joke about all the things we may have vowed to do, but the attitude from the teachers and priests is typically arrogant.

Being culturally Hindu during my younger years, I never had religion forced upon me. It was there, part of my family's culture, with lots of colorful mythology and stories my grandma told me. I was left to explore religion and philosophy for myself.

I always felt that atheism and Hinduism were very compatible and made sense because it seemed that many in my family were atheists. They never voiced it, just respected the traditional stuff and the wishes of others in the family to worship. I gave up identifying myself as Hindu years ago, but was glad to learn that there were a number of ancient atheistic schools of thought that made up the amalgam of Hinduism. Somehow it made me feel better. I still would not go back to calling myself Hindu because of all the ignorance, injustice and idiocy that is promoted in its name.

112. Red Mosque Fueled Islamic Fire in Young Women

Comment #58448 by heathen2 on July 24, 2007 at 10:23 pm

goldy,

Way off topic, but funny, funny joke. Thanks

113. Red Mosque Fueled Islamic Fire in Young Women

Comment #58292 by heathen2 on July 24, 2007 at 9:04 am

Regarding Comment #58247 by Philip1978:

"Religion and its promise of afterlife really annoys me, what is so wrong with this life? Don't these people ever connect the hardships they are going through are the direct result of their religion and if they gave it up and used common sense their lives would improve? Do they not connect their 14th century existence is a result of adhering to a 8th century book?"

I understand and feel the same, it is difficult for us to connect with this. But I think it is a combination of the culture (heirarchical, low position of women, dependent on family), religious dogma and lack of education, and poverty.

They just want to escape the drudgery and no avenue but martyrdom is open. One would think they could look around and see the opportunities, but I don't think they even have the internal resources to do that.

114. Why I Believe Anti-Evangelism Is Wrong

Comment #57450 by heathen2 on July 19, 2007 at 11:39 am

DC_Runner says:

It's funny, I've never had an atheist knock on my door and try to convince me not to believe in god. It sounds like roving bands of proselytizing atheists are common in Tyrone's neighborhood. Not so much in mine.

Yeah, where are these people he is talking about? There may be super aggressive atheists out there going around attacking theists unprovoked, however I don't know a single one.

I also don't see many theists actively provoke figths with atheists either, but they make smug, infuriating assumptions which are hard to put up with. One christian woman who assumed I was one too commented on how we should try to get our kids' soccer coach (who is Muslim)to a church and help him see the light. This was a while back so I silently fumed. My friend (a very devoted christian, but is lacking evangelizing skills)who was there too, gave me a sympathetic look of support because she knows how I feel about it. If it happened today, I would have been happy to have made an appropriate response. That is how Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens and others and this website have helped me.

115. Beyond Belief: Atheism (with AC Grayling)

Comment #57429 by heathen2 on July 19, 2007 at 10:06 am

I just watched the movie Fire (directed by Deepa Metha) which addresses a number of social issues in modern day India. Underlying these is the overwhelming religious repression (of women in particular but restricts the choices and freedom of men also).
This made me think that perhaps religion and belief in the supernatural may be like a bad side effect of a drug that is meant to help cure an ill. The drug (laws, rules) is meant to help maintain social order and justice, however when this goes too far and people impose their "morality" on others, the effect is detrimental.
I don't know, just thinking out loud. It's still hard for me to make sense of how otherwise intelligent people can believe such nonsense.

116. Why I Believe Anti-Evangelism Is Wrong

Comment #57401 by heathen2 on July 19, 2007 at 7:46 am

I have always detested "evangelizing" and can't see myself behaving that way. However I do regret that in the past I have backed away from using a few choice words to put believers in their proper place for the sake of being polite.

I guess the difference now is that I don't have that sort of politeness holding me back.

117. Science of the Soul? 'I Think, Therefore I Am' Is Losing Force

Comment #53130 by heathen2 on June 29, 2007 at 3:25 pm

Okay, I have not read all the posts in detail, so I may be repeating a point already made, but one thing that occurred to me regarding the issue of consciousness or lack of it is this:

So what? That still does not prove a supernatural creator.

May be other animals have as fully developed of a consciousness as human animals, or some portion or of a different sort. We don't really know this fully. I don't know how one can go from "humans have consciousness" to "therefore humans are created by a god or somehow better or special". Or maybe I am missing something here.

118. The new preface to The God Delusion paperback and Q&A

Comment #50983 by heathen2 on June 20, 2007 at 9:18 pm

And yet I remember that someone, I think from the Beyond Belief lectures, compared RD (and Harris) with Bertrand Russell, and stated that RD is strident and shrill, etc., while Russell was gentle in his argument. That just seemed dumb to me. It made me wonder whether he had read both authors.

119. Atheists: stand up and be counted

Comment #50887 by heathen2 on June 20, 2007 at 10:12 am

I attended a Catholic boarding school when I was in high school. The requirement was to take a religion class and attend mass every Sunday (or non Catholics could attend a service in their religion off campus). This was an international school and had people of several faiths. There was no arrangement for non believers, but being that I was young, it did not strike me at that time how unfair that was.

I was impressed that in religion class, the teachers (nuns) never pushed their worldview. They taught us meditation and guided imagery even. Maybe they did talk about creation and such but I just discarded it (don't remember, it was many years ago) since I was brought up by open minded parents (not christian, by the way). I had a biology class there too, with no mention of creation.

I hated mass on Sundays. It's irritating to think of all the time I wasted there. I saw myself as agnostic then, but I wish I had asserted myself and just said I'll be in the library studying the great philosophers while the rest of you are at mass. The nuns would not have agreed I suspect.

120. Atheists: stand up and be counted

Comment #50753 by heathen2 on June 19, 2007 at 7:59 pm

HPMcCall,
Wow that's awkward. When my daughter was about 8, one of her friends told her she was going to hell because my husband and I as her parents had not bothered to baptise her. My daughter told her "Whatever" and walked away. I'm so proud of my girl.
It sounds like in your situation that your child is being viewed in a positive manner at least. I would just ignore it. If your daughter asks about it or the other kid is aggressive with her about it, I would try to explian it to your daughter in an age appropriate way.

121. The new preface to The God Delusion paperback and Q&A

Comment #50750 by heathen2 on June 19, 2007 at 7:33 pm

I agree _J_, RD is wonderful and so charming, I don't get the "angry atheist" or "militant" charge from anyone who has seen video of him or heard him speak.

122. Interview with Richard Dawkins

Comment #50748 by heathen2 on June 19, 2007 at 7:27 pm

That bothers me too Roland, that no matter how many times Dawkins, Harris and even Hitchen hit home the point that our gap in knowledge does not mean that God is the answer, people still don't get it.
It's so logical, reasonable, stunningly simple and true. What bothers me most is that otherwise reasonable or well educated people refuse to see the point. I've been fascinated and curious in an academic way with this point for many years now, but now it just makes me frustrated and mad.

123. Interview with Richard Dawkins

Comment #50742 by heathen2 on June 19, 2007 at 7:09 pm

I liked this interview, especially the way Professor Dawkins aggressively answered the woman who said Darwin had a deathbed conversion and knew it was true because she read it.

I wish he had had time to answer her original question about why he bothered to write the book at all, although he has answered that numerous times before.

124. Debate between Sam Harris and Chris Hedges

Comment #50719 by heathen2 on June 19, 2007 at 4:12 pm

I have to agree with many of you here. I find it intolerable listening to Hedges (and his kind) and it makes me so angry that they get away with spewing out the ridiculous statements about the "Abrahamic faiths". I wish Sam could have stopped him then and there and countered his assumptions.

Sam Harris is just brilliant though. No notes, no moderator to take his side, just well thought out and articulated points and arguments. I was so impressed with his intro as well as all his arguments.

I was glad to see alot of jeering of both Hedges and Scheer on the Truthdig site in response to the debate. Also the audience seemed to be cheering for Sam and responding to him in a positive manner much more so than Hedges.

125. In the know

Comment #50224 by heathen2 on June 15, 2007 at 8:28 pm

phasmagigas: I understand what you mean, I'm puzzled by the religious mind and the blind acceptance of the so obviously irrational beliefs. Been trying to figure this out for years now and I especially don't understand how those with some training in the sciences can buy into the delusion. Although any rational human being ought logically reject the concept of one or more gods.

It seems that belief in a god is such a need and such a comfort that any cognitive dissonance the person experiences is obliterated in favor of the belief. I've always suspected that believers actually know, maybe somewhere deep in their consciousness (or the unconscious?) that they are lying to themselves. They have to know at some level, don't they?

126. In the know

Comment #50197 by heathen2 on June 15, 2007 at 3:55 pm

...sorry, did not proofread

127. In the know

Comment #50195 by heathen2 on June 15, 2007 at 3:53 pm

I agree with what's been said so far, this idiot could not have been actually reading or listening to what the "militant" atheists have been saying over and over again. Therefore he is not fit to comment.

But since I did bother to read his piece, let me just say that atheists are comfortable with a level of "uncertainty", about how we came to exist, about the universe, etc. There is no "certainty" on the part of atheist the mentality (for most, I suspect)about the nonexistence of god, just that there is not a shred of proof.

I also hate how he referred to "beasts and angels". Typical christian arrogance, looking down on non human animals. Again, what an idiot.

128. In the know

Comment #50192 by heathen2 on June 15, 2007 at 3:37 pm

Dax, you said:

I just pulled this word, blurf, out of the orifice between my un-intelligently designed muscular seating-pillows

That is so funny!!I love it.

129. Republican candidates range from ignorant to dishonest, part 2

Comment #48525 by heathen2 on June 8, 2007 at 9:14 am

Teapot,
Regarding your question, the Bueller reference is from a movie called Ferris Bueller's Day Off (from the 1980's I think). Ferris cuts class all day in the movie. I think this line is a part when the teacher is trying to get a response from the classs, and no one is responding.

Same as the response to the question in the dabate. Silence. Funny in the movie, pathetic in real life.

130. My Road to Atheism, What Took Me So Long and The Aftermath

Comment #48143 by heathen2 on June 6, 2007 at 6:43 pm

james,
I sympathize with the position in which you find yourself. This will get more difficult with the different viewpoints (you have doubts, she has faith) you and your wife hold as your kids get older. Raising kids to think rationally and critically protects them in so many ways however. I'm sure your wife would agree that you both want them to resist cults, slimy sales pitches, people that want to take advantage of them and all manner of traps. If they are gullible, they will fall for these potentially. If you teach them to be critical and judge for themselves, they can make informed decisions on all sorts of things as they get older.

131. God is not responsible for war and suffering

Comment #48132 by heathen2 on June 6, 2007 at 6:01 pm

It gets tiring being constantly inundated with this bullcrap. Same old garbage not even worth responding to. What newspapers sanction this sort of biased writing? Are you all tired of repeated articles of this nature? I don't come across this kind of stuff in the local newspaper except for in the Letters to the Editor section.

132. Sen. Clinton: Faith got me through marital strife

Comment #47982 by heathen2 on June 6, 2007 at 7:43 am

By the way, I wanted to express my appreciation to people who post at this site. I have been reading for some time, but just recently and timidly posted myself.
Many of you are so eloquent, obviously well read and thoughtful. I love the sarcasm and humor in all it's forms. I think having humor to soothe me in these time of blatant faith as expressed politicians and as part of our culture is one of the few things that helps me cope. But I digress from the topic...sorry.

133. Sen. Clinton: Faith got me through marital strife

Comment #47974 by heathen2 on June 6, 2007 at 7:23 am

It's sickening how these candidates are pandering to faith. Can't just one of of these people running be honest and say they don't believe? I guess that would not work, as they will have to go out of their way to convince the country that they have good values and are moral and ethical, etc. Actually they may not be able to convince people at all or become marginalized.
Edwards looked the most uncomfortable, trying to reconcile his constant blatherings about his faith and evolution. And from what I saw of the clips, Obama at least spoke to the issues of good vs evil and that it is the wrong way to view the war or any war. It's too bad he became christian after being raised by an agnostic mother. Clinton, I don't know what to think. Is it wishfiul thinking to say that she was being expedient in her discussion and that was all?
I'll vote Democrat, but I don't know who at this point because I find this faith talk from them very disturbing.