101. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204549 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 7:28 am

txpiper-

Perhaps, but the argument is still a fresh as ever. The fatigue is on the part of folks who have never been able to successfully address the problem.

How does God make wings and eyes?

I've followed this pretty close ever since that story broke back in 2005. I haven't seen anyone express doubts about what was found since around that time.

This is an interesting point, not because of what txpiper says, but because I have just discovered with a bit of web research that organic material can survive a very long time: at least up to a million years or so.

This means that the discovery of soft tissue, even if it is true in this case, is of no help to txpiper at all. It does not limit the age of the fossil to a few thousand years.

102. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204297 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 4:22 pm

Comment #204291 by Donald

I would bet that the Higgs is found, but I hope it isn't - it would be wonderful if we had to involve new physics.

103. Sharia law 'could have UK role'

Comment #204295 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 4:14 pm

Comment #204275 by Fanusi Khiyal

Currently the political choice is the BNP or Shariah for all of us.

So, Fanusi, are you intending to be a BNP supporter?

I think you should be honest. There may be many of us here who are a bit cautious about you if this is the case.

104. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204283 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 3:17 pm

Let's not discuss them NOT finding the Higg's particle. That is just too depressing to think about, since all the evidence points to its existence.

That is not depressing at all. It should be considered exciting. It means we have to consider new physics.

The wonderful thing about the LHC is that whatever the results, they will change our understanding of the universe.

I think it is wonderful to have forums like this to discuss such matters, and we now have a real expert - Oystein Elgaroy - who, I sincerely hope, will guide us through the results that come from the LHC.

105. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204282 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 3:14 pm

Comment #204279 by Philip1978

The nutters get to me. I can be talking and corresponding with someone who seems sane at first. They ask reasonable questions. They seem happy to debate philosophical issues.

But then it turns out they are biblical literalists. That is the foundation for their lives. It is like discovering that someone you have known for a while is convinced that they had been abducted by aliens, and spent last summer on venus.

I think that such nutters should have warnings attached, like on cigarette packets... "these ideas can seriously damage your intelligence"

106. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204277 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Comment #204253 by Philip1978

In addition to Diacanu's wonderful words -

I sense tension in your post. You have to not let these nutters get to you.

Creationists are basically conspiracy theory crackpots.

107. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204268 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Comment #204224 by Oystein Elgaroy

It sounds like the paper, but what I am reporting is only my vague impression of what I remember!

Stenger's more pragmatic view avoids huge metaphysical commitments like that, so I think it has a few things going for it.

It seems to me to be a bit like the "selfish gene" idea as first proposed by Dawkins - a different perspective on things that can give a simpler and clearer view of what is going on.

Of course, the selfish gene idea turned out to be more than that..

108. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204211 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 11:54 am

txpiper-

This is complete and total nonsense.

I have vast numbers of scientific papers to show my case. You have zilch.

Materialism is in and of itself a bias.

No, it isn't. This is "complete and total nonsense". Materialism is a tentative conclusion we get because exploring the world using experiment works. No better way of exploring the physical world has ever been suggested.

There is simply no need to involve the supernatural. It is surplus to requirements.

109. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204201 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 11:42 am

Comment #204189 by Oystein Elgaroy

That is, the fact that the fine tuning of our universe seems unlikely says nothing about how likely it is that the universe is governed by natural laws alone given the fine tuning.

I think I remember reading a philosophical argument that said that the more fine tuned the universe looked, the less any argument for a deity being involved worked. This sounds weird, but I remember thinking it made sense at the time.

110. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204181 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 10:04 am

Comment #204174 by decius

Here we are, poking holes and finding weaknesses in the work of an important author for "our side".

Apart from this being fun, I think it is important to do this. It doesn't show any lack of respect for the author, but helps to avoid a situation where we only follow certain scientists because we know of them through their books on themes of atheism. So, we would have Dawkins as "our" biologist, Dennett as "our" philosopher, Stenger as "our" physicist, and so on. Not that these people aren't great, but this unconscious selection can prevent us from seeing true controversy. Stenger's views are interesting, but I don't think they are mainstream. I am not sure there is a mainstream in some of the matters he discusses (e.g. "fine tuning"). There seems to be just a range of experts with different views.

Criticising authors like this can help prevent (unwitting) cherry-picking of scientific views.

111. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204135 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 8:15 am

Comment #204128 by irate_atheist

What do you think, given the evidence presented so far?

I have had recent experience that txpiper is far from alone. His is just one strategy for trying to isolate his mind from reality.

Another I come across recently goes like this:

1. Science can't be shown to guarantee access to truth (induction is flawed)
2. Therefore, science is useless
3. So, I can believe whatever feels right to me as long as it is consistent and self-affirming.
4. The Bible looks good to me. I'll declare that it is consistent, ignoring all evidence to the contrary, and make it the basis of my life. Which is fine, what with science being all wrong and that.

112. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204130 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 8:10 am

Comment #204125 by decius

That's the thing... I have read that book, and I still don't think he makes his case. That is my amateur impression anyway.

Comment #204127 by Oystein Elgaroy

If I understand Stenger correctly, he would say that there are no "laws of physics". Physicists make models to describe, e.g., the vacuum, and the forms of these laws look the way they look because we require them to be independent of viewpoint.

Yes, that is what I believe he is saying. I have found that a fascinating and revealing way of looking at things, but what it implies to me is that the there are laws, but they are probably just about as simple as they could be while still allowing for anything interesting at all.

We just happen to live in a domain where the Higgs vacuum expectation value is congenial to life. The anthropic principle again, but without the multiverse.

That has been one of my favourite solutions to "fine tuning".

113. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #204123 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 7:49 am

txpiper-

I think the evidence supports a catastrophic flood.

Sorry, but I just don't believe you. You know that you are no expert in science, and you know that all serious scientists in all parts of the world have researched this for centuries, and they all disagree with you.

You know this, so you know that the evidence does not support a flood, because you know that the chances of txpiper being more of an expert in geology and physics than all those people is, to put it mildly, somewhat unlikely.

I think what you are doing is simply repeating to yourself that the evidence supports a flood in the hope that you can shut out all those doubts from the real world.

Because, I mean, honestly, if you are at all sane, those doubts must be nagging at you. If they weren't, why would you be here?

114. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204120 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 7:38 am

Comment #204112 by Oystein Elgaroy

The vacuum in quantum cosmology is a state without matter, energy, space and time. It is hard to imagine something having a higher degree of "nothingness" than that.

I am not sure I get what Stenger is saying about nothingness. What Stenger calls an initial "nothing" state seems to me to be what Martin Rees calls a situation "pregnant with the laws of physics".

Comment #204115 by decius

Do you have his book with you?

Somewhere in a pile :)

I think his point is that once symmetry breaking explains the origin of the law of physics, the whole concept of fine-tuning becomes redundant.

I don't get that, because the laws could have been different - the symmetries could have been broken differently, perhaps.

115. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204111 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 6:49 am

Comment #204109

I am somewhat sceptical of how Stenger explains things... his arguments seem to be how just about everything is perfectly symmetrical apart from when it isn't, and nothing needs to be thought of as being at all "fine tuned", apart from that.

116. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204098 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 6:19 am

Comment #204089 by decius

I have no idea :)

Fortunately, there is probably someone here who does!

117. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204091 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 5:55 am

Comment #204086 by Fanusi Khiyal

I admit that the article I posted was not directly counter to your point, so here is another:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-the-curse-of-talibanised-islam-is-spreading-415548.html

I don't see it matters if the article is full of tired apologetics. That was not the point I was trying to make. It was that we have potential muslim allies. I do understand the points you are trying to make, but your sweeping generalisations may, I feel, do more harm than good. The best way to deal with things right now, in a non-ideal world, is to attempt to ally with "moderates" against "fundamentalists".

118. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204082 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 5:26 am

Comment #204075 by clodhopper

That is a good parallel.

119. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #204081 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 5:23 am

Comment #204078 by Vaal

I would love to see some evidence for supersymmetry. And, of course, the Higgs boson!

120. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204063 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 4:44 am

Comment #204050 by Fanusi Khiyal

I noticed. Blah-blah-blah.

Sorry, but you are sounding increasingly like a conspiracy theorist, dismissing anything that counters your views as irrelevant.

I don't think that helps promote your views.

121. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #204047 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 4:21 am

They've never done anything to oppose what their co-religionists routinely do to kafirs such as you and me worldwide.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-religions-should-not-be-allowed-to-make-ghettos-856917.html?startindex=60

"The reason so many Muslim girls are abused, denied education and pushed into early marriages is because the community and family patriarchs and matriarchs violate their human rights. Proportionately more Muslim girls and boys run away from home than do the children of other Britons. Are they trying to escape the freedom of British society, or trying desperately to find it? Our state needs to protect these girls, not hand them over to their oppressors."

Alibhai-Brown is a muslim.

122. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203951 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 1:28 am

Comment #203933 by mordacious1

I am having a hard time coming up with an answer....

123. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203930 by Steve Zara on July 4, 2008 at 12:51 am

Comment #203909 by clearthinker

The issue isn't that all religion is stupid and evil. Not in my view. It is that you can be stupid and even evil and be praised for it because of religion.

Examples:

Stupid: Not accepting evolution because it is apparently against the bible.

Evil: Preaching hellfire to children, and telling them that the Bible comes before science and reason.

Any progress on coming up with a statement about evolution, death, disease and disaster before the time of man, David?

124. New Zealand man sells his soul to 'Hell'

Comment #203763 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 2:14 pm

Comment #203758 by tahustvedt

There's a place in Norway called Hell.

Google maps shows a place called Heaven close to Bury St Edmonds in Suffolk, UK.

(I would try and give some kind of reference to it on Google Earth, but the evil Linux version crashes my video drivers under Ubuntu)

125. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203745 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 1:28 pm

Comment #203742 by Akheloios

Excellent comment. I fully support what you say.

126. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203743 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 1:21 pm

Comment #203738 by irate_atheist

Oh dear. In that case, I'm well and truly fucked, aren't I?

On the contrary, you are (and I am sure epeeist and others will get this) a truth-sayer.

127. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203740 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 1:19 pm

And since I'm on the subject, I'm tired of such wishy washy publications as the Daily Mail being called right-wing insanity

I am rapidly approaching my 50th birthday, and I have had a deep dislike of the Daily Mail most of my life. My parents used to buy the paper in the 70s. There was, admittedly, a good sports section, with a good writer called Ian Woolridge. My father was a very good golfer, and he enjoyed the sports pages. I used to read the rest of the paper, but even as a teenager it did not take me long to develop a deep dislike of it. "Why is this newspaper trying to tell me what to think" was my main thought. Then I started regularly reading some of the columnists. There was this woman called Lynda Lee-Potter who used to regularly write poisonous columns about how life was awful. At about 16 or 17, I just could not stand it any more.

Since the mid 70s, the paper has not changed at all. It sells copies by pandering to unsupported prejudices and by scare stories. I suspect it has a typical "middle englander" somewhere in the basement of its offices, with electrodes in his/her brain, and it tries out all its stories. Anything that shows "panic" signals will be published. Polish immigrants swamping the country? Funny European people telling us that we can't sell bent cucumbers? People with dark skins complaining about dogs in pictures? (Oops! We can't use "dark skins" anymore... are they Muslims? Great!)

It is a bit ironic that the Daily Mail is read by so many women, but if they can find a single scare story about the health damage to women who don't spend their entire day in the kitchen looking after their men, they will publish it.

The Daily Mail is not right-wing insanity.

It is insanity.

128. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #203724 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 12:34 pm

Comment #203716 by decius

However, the Helicon Double Layer Thruster could already be deployed after that it was successfully tested on orbiting satellites.

Thank you! Another day, another new thing I have learned from this site.

129. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203717 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 12:20 pm

Comment #203714 by bugaboo

I totally agree. But let's criticise the religions about the real, substantial issues.

130. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203708 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 12:03 pm

Comment #203703 by bugaboo

I think the incident became newsworthy when the police apologised.

Why should the actions of a few people in a local police office count for that much?

Edit: The story was reported in the torygraph and in local newspapers

I am not sure how that helps support this.

There is more than enough reason to attack the Abrahamic religions. My feeling is that stories like this are a distraction. They show nothing more than that a few silly people say and do silly things.

Comment #203706 by huzonfurst

First of all, it is unfair to expect that someone who does not live in the U.K. would know that the Daily Mail is a right-wing rag.

It is not a matter of political position. It is a matter of reliability.

This is also supposed to be a site representing clear thinking and rationality. Part of that should be not taking stories like this at face value. Things need to be corroborated and shown to be of significance. Also, anyone who regularly browses international news sites (such as reddit or digg) will know how much nonsense is presented there from this single British newspaper.

I have to say, sadly, that I have been deeply disappointed by both the publication of this story here without more substantiation, and the unquestioning knee-jerk reaction to it by people like Fanusi. I have been pleased by the number of posters who have been prepared to speak out against this.

131. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203702 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 11:52 am

Comment #203701 by Notcrowingbutyawning

Finally, and what if this report were from the Guardian or Independent?

I would still want to see another source for the story. I think that should apply to any non-peer reviewed story of this nature.

This site should not, I would hope, be promoting gossip, rumour, or spin.

132. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203699 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 11:39 am

Comment #203694 by Fanusi Khiyal

Akheilios do you feel all nice and morally superior about being able to condemn the Daily Mail? Does that feel good?

I feel nice and morally superior being able to condemn the Daily Mail.

Yes, it does feel good.

But, seriously, no matter what the issues being discussed, it is not a reliable source. It has a known reputation for bias and spin. It really is not to be trusted. Just to give one example, it has shamefully promoted fears about the MMR vaccine in order to promote sales.

The story may well be true. If it is, I will fully support those who react against it.

But you don't get that kind of reliability from the Daily Mail.

Comment #203698 by bugaboo

That wasn't a racist comment. Those who read the Mail tend to be (although aren't always) white and uneducated. The paper thrives on fears about immigration. That panders to such people. That comment didn't say that all white people are uneducated.

133. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203691 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 11:20 am

Comment #203688 by al-rawandi

David Beckham has bad breath? Urgh. That has ruined him for me.

134. Science is thrilling - except in our schools

Comment #203686 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 11:11 am

Styrer-

The crowning glory was that I didn't even get to dissect a frog, which was commonly anticipated as the most exciting lesson, for which I was bloody well off sick.

Just a frog? When I did biology we did frog, worm, and dogfish. I had to dissect a dogfish for my A-level practical exam. I was told by the examiner that it was the best dissection they had even seen, but the worst accompanying labelled drawing they had ever seen.

I hated dissection so much that when I went on to do my B.Sc. biochemistry degree I stuck with plants and microbes. But then my practical project required calibrating the enzyme assay using ... rat livers. I used to hang around the lab asking "any dead rats today?"

135. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203684 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 11:06 am

Al-

Who gives a fuck where the story appears. Is it true or false? If it's true than it doesn't matter who conveys the information.

Indeed. Which is why we should not react to such stories until we are confident that they are true. If you knew the nasty bigoted Daily Mail like I do, you might share my lack of confidence about the significance of the story, as you are a well-educated chap who knows the value of rigorous and reliable sources.

136. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #203679 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 10:58 am

Comment #203674 by Quetzalcoatl

I believe they can be very fast. The thing is that they don't run out of fuel. A solar sail craft could have covered the distance that the Voyager craft have travelled in a fraction of the time.

Just imagine the propulsion that would be present for a spacecraft that was flown close to the sun, and then opened a sail....

NASA's project is exciting!

137. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #203676 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 10:54 am

Comment #203670 by squinky

DNA and RNA are essentially ticker tape with little to no function. To take this system and then advance to the simplest extremophile prokaryotic cell is a chasm so deep and wide that we don't even have a hypothesis yet of how it might have happened.

I think you may be far too pessimistic. The relatively recent discovery that ice can concentrate nucleotides and assist polymerisation of RNA gives us least a vague idea of how the first replicators might have got started.

138. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #203671 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 10:46 am

Comment #203647 by decius

I generally agree with you. There are places in the solar system where we know that very interesting chemistry is taking place (Titan) and where we are pretty sure that liquid water is present (Europa, Enceladus).

Perhaps more research should be put into faster propulsion systems (ion drives, solar sails, even nuclear), so that we can explore such worlds on reasonable timescales.

139. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203665 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 10:41 am

Comment #203660 by Scott McMeekin

I tend to agree. At the very least, a story from such a source should not be posted without independent verification. In my opinion.

140. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #203622 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 8:58 am

Comment #203620 by decius

I agree. "An indication that it might be life" isn't really anything to get excited about.

141. Evangelical Christians sign up to a 'Church within a Church'

Comment #203617 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 8:45 am

Comment #203615 by Peacebeuponme

In the same way, whatever happens with the CofE, I can't see an increase in homophobia occuring amongst the population.

Perhaps not, but overt homophobia will become more acceptable in some groups.

142. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #203616 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 8:44 am

Comment #203605 by Tack

The ratio of C12 to C13 isn't being used here for dating. It is a possible signature of life. Biochemical processes tend to concentrate C12, so C13 (which is rare anyway) is even rarer in living organisms.

143. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #203598 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 8:06 am

The physicist Paul Davies has been speculating about possible multiple origins of life. He asks an interesting question - if there were small organisms around with a completely different biochemistry, would we know they were there? We have barely begun to classify bacteria and archaea... there might still be a significant mass of life around from another origin.

144. Did newborn Earth harbour life?

Comment #203587 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 7:53 am

Comment #203582 by Ygern

Yes, that is possible. But the nature of life around now suggests something else happened. It looks like the ancestral forms of life from which we all evolved were thermophiles - able to live at pretty high temperatures. It is also possible they are related to the prokaryotes that now live quite a way down in the Earth's crust. Life could have appeared, and spread, but was then mostly wiped out, with only bacteria-like organisms deep in rocks surviving. Those then gave rise to everything else.

145. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #203566 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 7:03 am

I wonder why they even turn on a computer, or turn a light on, or go to the Doctor?

Oh that is apparently easily explained, science is partially useful, in some limited ways.

EDIT: Can't open your link to your blog

Sorry.. this site has appended a "blockquote" to the end of the URL. Try now.

146. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #203561 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 6:46 am

Comment #203556 by Quetzalcoatl

I can't help but think that you wasted your time with this guy.

I learned a phenomenal amount during the debate, and at the moment Brian English and I are watching him struggle after it was pointed out in the debate that the concept of the Trinity was logically impossible. I have a feeling he may resort to abandoning logic altogether in order to keep his religious views.

I find this sad. I thought I got on well with him. But I now realise he is a fundamentalist nutter, to be honest.

I can't but help take his views on that post that scientists are basically incompetent deluded fools a bit personally.

147. Evangelical Christians sign up to a 'Church within a Church'

Comment #203557 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 6:38 am

Comment #203553 by Peacebeuponme

Unless I'm missing something The Church of England has been homophobic by default,

It was a broad church.

Whatever happens, I can't see additional mainstream legitimacy to homophobia arising, given that 1 billion catholics and 1 billion muslims are already bigoted.

I don't think that is a reasonable statement. Their official religion may be bigoted (and that certainly is a problem), but I don't think one can say that 2 billion people are all bigoted.

148. Stephen Hawking's explosive new theory

Comment #203552 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 6:27 am

Comment #202225 by Steve Zara

I had a long formal debate with him (I accepted a challenge months ago). It was quite informative as to how theological arguments go:
http://zarbi.livejournal.com/135785.html

I have just made a rather sad discovery on this chap's site:
http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=36

"Indeed, this is my advice to Christian scientists�"there is no need to waste time fighting secular scientists on their own ground by trying to disprove evolution. Evolution will fall apart all by itself sooner or later."

I feel like I am in some kind of intellectual horror film. People I think may be reasonable turn out to be creationist pod people.

149. Evangelical Christians sign up to a 'Church within a Church'

Comment #203536 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 5:34 am

I don't know why Peter Tatchell is bothering to campaign. Let the deluded gay haters have their church, and the deluded gays theirs.

If this goes ahead, there will be a recognised group that supports this homophobia. That will give more legitimacy to such views.

150. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203505 by Steve Zara on July 3, 2008 at 3:23 am

Comment #203499 by Quetzalcoatl

That is brilliant - milli-Hovinds!

Nice to see how quickly and easily Robert was dealt with here.