151. My life under a fatwa

Comment #91610 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 4:45 pm

Fanusi Khiyal

Myself and Ayaan are both from the same background and of broadly similar persuasion. I'm giving you a first hand account of what a middle eastern, well acquainted with the culture, has to say about her claims and I don't hide the fact that I disagree with her.

What the hell are you and where do you come from? What are your first hand experiences with the cultures? You don't know the language and you get your education second hand.

Listen to my perspective and either shut up or engage in a polite way because your getting on my nerves now.

I'd rather you stopped talking like you knew the culture because you obviously don't and just parrot whatever you read on your Christian fundamentalist websites.

152. My life under a fatwa

Comment #91583 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 3:49 pm

"Then I went back to the asylum-seekers' centre and almost everyone was from a Muslim country begging for the charity of these infidels. And I thought, 'If we're so superior, why are we begging from them?'"

Because of poverty. Not all muslims think this way and in fact most probably don't. She's not directly saying they do but she keeps suggesting it. Ayaan is not just preaching reform she is stimply inciting hatred with such lies.


Genital mutilation is not an Islamic concept and is practised by non muslims in the middle east and Africa as well. Even in the Sudan, a fairly underdeveloped country, women have been actively campaigning against it for the last three decades. Guess what, they use Islamic texts to support them as well.

Ayaan is a sensationalist and a misinformant. The rising voice of the right wing in Western Europe is sucking up to her blatant lies. Her story is trajic but by no means representative of the average muslim girl in Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Tunisia, Jordan or even Syria.

She obviously needs to pay for her protection and if she softens up she will cease to be the international sensation she's become. As I said before, to people who really want to make a difference in the Islamic world her works are useless. Right wing fodder.

153. Pupil defends teacher in Muhammad teddy furore

Comment #91560 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 2:46 pm

FK

All of the defence of this woman has been of the "She didn't know what she was doing! Please, please forgive her!"....Instead of saying "This is bullshit...

Because you're not dealing with civilized people. Say to them you're full of bullshit and they will say: 'Aha, bloody kuffar we knew what's this was all about all along' and punish her just to prove a point.

The woman's safety is priority now. And you don't even know what those Sudanese prison cells look or smell like...we need to help get her out of there in one piece. Your mini crusade can resume later.

Dar-Al Harb my arse....

154. Turkey probes atheist's 'God' book

Comment #91555 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 2:38 pm

Karaaslan could face trial and up to one year in prison if the prosecutor concludes that the book "incites religious hatred" and insults religious values

I don't understand the Turks. The founder of modern Turkey was militantly anti theistic (literally).

155. Islam and the modern world don't mix

Comment #91439 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 10:01 am

Fanusi K:

It can be either. I keep harping on the fact that if we do not engage in a stiff fight for minds now, and that will require a certain amount of force brought to bear, we will find ourselves in total and absolute war.

The enlightened West has been doing this all along. Nuke the Japanese, wreck Iraq apart, support religious fundamentalists in Israel.... nothing's really changed. Not the most ambitious of Islamists can outdo the enlightened west's bodycount.

Dar-ul-Harb my butt!

Only humanists canc claim the moral highground. Most of the rest are as filthy as the Islamists.

156. Islam and the modern world don't mix

Comment #91437 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 9:53 am

OK now I've just heard that the poor woman was officially charged. What a let down. The Sudanese government is more fragile than ever and I don't know why no one clever enough to forsee the impending political backlash hasn't warned the idiots not to resolve this peacefully.

What a shame.

157. Islam and the modern world don't mix

Comment #91429 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 9:28 am

The stark fact is that the notion of "honour" and the violence linked to it cannot co-exist with the modern idea of universal human rights.

Very true indeed.

Something's not right about the story though. I know the Sudanese and their out-of-this-world religious stupidity but I am skeptic that the teacher was arrested just because the teddy bear was called Muahmmad.

I studied in that particular school. You'd send your child specifically to that institution if you don't want them to be indoctrinated in any of the state run schools. Almost all of the people I knew where either secular or quasi-religious.

I actually know the prinicpal's family personally so I'll ask him how the misunderstanding came about but there is no way I'll just swallow that story without a good serving of salt.

158. Islam and the modern world don't mix

Comment #91425 by Vinelectric on November 28, 2007 at 9:21 am

FK

He is uswa husana, al-insal al-kamil

By the way "insal" means ejaculation. I think you meant "insan". You don't know Arabic so stop parroting.

159. My life under a fatwa

Comment #91228 by Vinelectric on November 27, 2007 at 5:27 pm

Very interesting conversation.

The emergence of "reformist Ayaah" heralds the next logical step for the woman's efforts. Everyone's had a go at pointing out the shrotcomings of the Islamic belief so now it's time to come forward with practical and realistic soultions.

She's a brave woman but loses the points on insisting that Islamism is a pure form of Islam. You don't see the Wahabbi/Islamist men washing the clothes and help cleaning the house like Muhammad used to. You don't see their wives leading scholarly circles, running their own businesses and being at the forefront of the political scene as Muhammad's wives did but nevertheless it is this form of Islam that we now have to deal with.

In fact you'll find that women in countries with moderate Islamic leadership (e.g Jordan and Egypt) are actually quite comfortable with fighting against the Pharonic genital mutilation, sexual taboos, subversion...etc all whilst conforming to Islam as a faith. Reform isn't just possible it is actually happening and is refreshingly forthcoming. Unfortunately that is unheard of in the countries in which Ayaan grew up viz. Saudi Arabia and Somalia.


By the way that nine year old girl (Aisha) was already engaged at age six and was going to marry another middle aged man before her father offered her to Muhammad as a token of friendship (!!!!!). Crazy as it sounds but it was the norm then. Don't ask how, I can't explain it!!!

It's embarrasing even within the muslim community but Aisha's status as one of the most influential figures, not just among muslim women, but in Islam in general seem to overshadow her premature matrimony to Muhammad.

160. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #91129 by Vinelectric on November 27, 2007 at 10:27 am

Vinelectric, Are you telling me that in a Muslim country under Sharia Law a Christian can be in the government?

No, I'm telling you what I just wrote.

Of course what is commanded in the Quran is unimportant to me anymore. I know what you mean but all you need to be a Muslim is the five well known pillars. Anything else is negotiable.

161. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #91127 by Vinelectric on November 27, 2007 at 10:19 am

Before FK or tieInterceptor or any of the army of half-informed, dodgy-website educated and arrogant rude boys accuse me of poor referrencing read this link and educate yourselves about the status of non believers in Islam.

http://www.gawaher.comindex.phps=1e37472418d0f894aef12903fbf5d3ba&showtopic=33947&pid=464895&st=340&#entry464895

Alternatively join a good comparative religions course like Sam Harris as the awful misinformation you keep spitting out is quite overwhelming!!

162. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #91122 by Vinelectric on November 27, 2007 at 9:45 am

Cartomancer

I honestly never heard of Julian the Apostate but looking at the encyclopaedia it seems that he was born royalty. He was not chosen to rule. His family ruled, so, the chair came naturally to him. Is this not right?


Anyways I should've thought of a better example. I still don't see why anyone seriously expects to find that those who ruled in the age of the empires would seek out and invite the minority to rule over them after they've attained the throne by force? I don't approve of that but again, a bit of common sense explains everything.

163. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #91120 by Vinelectric on November 27, 2007 at 9:42 am

Good chance to clear some of the nonsense I keep reading.

tieInterceptor digs out archaic texts that talk about events that took place centuries ago (Nawawi) and wants to trick the audience into thinking that these events apply now. For your own information people don't refer to Nawawi for history or jurisdicition. The man's only worthy contribution is the collection of useful hadiths in a reader friendly text.

By the way have you come across the Sirah? Muhammad died with his armour/shield in the possession of a Jewish merchant for monies that he failed to repay. Does that conform to the "humiliate the non-muslim" attitude?

Your point fails miserably as what you wrote is irrelevant to the world today. Talk about the other horrors in present day Saudi Arabia and I'll keep my mouth shut.


epeeist

Rubbish - the likelihood of you being elected might be small, but there is no law against you holding power.

Point taken but this is the same reason why tieInterceptor got it wrong in the first place. Let's start all over again: what is the likelihood of a non muslim getting elected for president in the middle east nowadays and what reasons do you think explain that?

Lebanon: 100%
Sudan: 50% (the vice president must always be a member of the predominantly christian SPLA).
Tunisia: 0%

What is the chance of a conservative muslim holding a poisiton of power in Syria?

0%

What is the chance of anyone of any political or religious persuasion or bloodline different to any of the established ruling families in any of the other countries?

0%

Notice the trend? Where there's a majority of non muslims you'll likely to get good representation in the government. Nothing more and nothing less. Just being a muslim is not enough reason to secure you a right to rule and just being non muslim isn't always the reason why you won't. The rule of Sharia applies in a handful of (very influential) countries so again tieInterceptor is way off-point.

It is misleading to simply say that non muslims are prevented form holding a seat in government just for the sake of it. Get me?

164. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #91074 by Vinelectric on November 27, 2007 at 6:43 am

mrjonno and Rtambree

I suppose the sense of humour in the Middle East is vastly different to you guys in the West but what is so funny or tempting about masturbating over a holy book or "Muhammad bending Jesus over"?

Is it frustration?

I think it's silly and probably ineffective as well.

165. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #91073 by Vinelectric on November 27, 2007 at 6:38 am

tieInteceptor you need to get your facts right.

The dhimmi tax is historical and as far as I'm aware was the basic governmental tax that you'd be charged anyway. Muslims have to pay both zakah as well as the state tax.

If you're atheist you can't hold position of power in the US and I don't imagine Christian Rome appointing a pagan as head of state so I don't think why you'd expect medieval Islamic empires to be any different.

In countries with a considerable non muslim population you can definitely hold a substantial position of power e.g the Sudan, Lebanon, Iraq (remember Tariq Aziz?)..etc. Most other middle eastern countries don't have a large christian population so you wouldn't expect them to appoint any to office.

166. Monotheism was a con from the beginning

Comment #91066 by Vinelectric on November 27, 2007 at 6:21 am

If you're atheist you'd obviously be either moral or immoral. If you're a theist then you just have to be moral, don't you? So I don't think Hitchens is in trouble for his views on Mother Theresa.

167. Discover plagiarism at the Discovery Institute

Comment #90953 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 7:25 pm

Call to all Biologists!

This video reminded me of a visiting cell biologist who gave us a lecture on the role of cytokines as colony stimulating factors and the mechanism by which they induced cell division. I could not verify some of the things mentioned in that lecture.

He seemed to suggest that the molecules that signalled cell division interfere with the fluidity of the constant turn-over of the membrane components at the site of receptor coupling. It is as if the secondary intracellular changes that resulted in cell division came as a response to a mechanical block no more and no less. Splitting the membrane restores the molecular turnover.

If that were true then it would be a nice explanation of how seemingly complex processes are essentially a culmination of simple mechanisms. Is this true? I haven't come across anyone else to describe it that way (I'm not a biologist).

168. Monotheism was a con from the beginning

Comment #90948 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 6:56 pm

For those interested in the Satanic verses

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/sverses.html

169. Monotheism was a con from the beginning

Comment #90947 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 6:55 pm

Actually the Arabs were idolators more than polytheists. They have always worshipped a mono-deity with the idols acting as intercessors. Monotheism in the Arabian peninsula has its roots way before Muhammad. The Arabs think they've inherited monotheism from Abraham and the Israelites.


Anyway it's refreshing to see an attempt at historical analysis of the origin of monotheisms but I have to admit the story of the Satanic verses is a red herring.

There are two histoirans (Tabari and Ibn Saad) that mention the story but the chain of narration is almost non existent and no serious historian would lend the story much credit.

If you're going to selectively quote these historians on such stories you might as well quote the other stories that appear to be more consistent with the man's character and his book. Unfortunately there is a wave of under informed critics that seem to be barking under the wrong tree by following such nonesense.

I wish the more "authentic" hadiths and the Quran be subjected to the same level of serious and honest historical analysis as the bible and the torah. If the author follows the likes of the satanic verses stories then he's definitely wasting his effort. As if there is no abundance of more reliable literature to chew on. Believe me there is, waiting to be dissected.

170. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #90856 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 2:06 pm

Fanusi
For FK's sake control yourself. That's what Bin Laden is thinking.

171. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #90854 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 2:03 pm

The will not integrate - so why welcome them?

Governments don't usually run immigration schemes for charity. Not sure about Canada but definitely not the US and not the new system of Highly skilled migrants coming into the UK. So, you welcome them because you hope that there's some economic benefit to be made in the long run.

But I know what you're saying. Mutlitculturalism has proven to be counter productive.

172. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90847 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 1:51 pm

Fausi you annoying little twat!!!! LOL

I gave you the text in the original Arabic with the referrence but you want me to spoon feed it to you so that you come back and annoy the hell out of me with yet more garbage.

Here comes the English verion...open your mouth...

http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=93&translator=1&start=0&number=0

(Hadith 470 and ignore the brackets, the english translator has added his own flavour)

...mmm Good Boy. Now this is getting boring so go to bed and get ready for another exciting day of ..HATE THAT MUSLIM...

173. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #90835 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 1:33 pm

I think Muslims worship Muhammad withouth actually realising it. This madness in Sudan is highly typical. They luurrvvve the man. You don't even have to insult him in any remote way. If you happen to utter his name when everyone is in the mood to "want to die for him" then you're stuffed.

The woman's only fault is that she is a Westerner and happened to be in a country recovering from a more serious incident that happened about a year ago. Last year one of the websites (that I bet Fanusi likes to visit) published a story by Ibn Warraq suggesting that Muhammad was an illegitimate child.

The media (which is enjoying a bit of freedom) was naive enough to publish, not the actual story, but a critcism of it by a well meaning but outspoken journalist (Muhammad Taha). The man was kidnapped and beheaded in an incident that was first of it's kind in the country. The journalist did make racist remarks to some other no-nonesense tribe so it is not clear who killed him but naturally no one has heard anything since.

As long as you're a Westerner doing a "Dante" and visiting the living hell (Sudan) then there's no gurantee that you won't get into trouble for no good reason.

174. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90778 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 10:16 am

I agree aquilacane but the problem with Islam specifically is that it is a cultural identity. You can't profess the creed and not know Arabic as you can't hold the prayers. Get me?

Daily speech, sense of humour, literature: all burrow from Quranic and Hadith texts. My Coptic christian teachers used to know several verses of the quran by heart and use them in discussions on literature and prose. The belief system is too well rooted for you to be optimistic that the middle east will ever wake up one day and say: oh we get it! out with Islam and in with..whatever.

Thus all the muslim community see is people trying to undermine them as people not just their beliefs because, as you know, Islam is a way of life not a mere philosophy. The defensive position is taken automatically and irrationality reaches a new height.

Obviously the religion has elements which don't belong in the modern world but the community choses to be selective about what's good for them and ignore the dark texts.

This is no excuse but that's the way it is anyway.

175. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90771 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 10:02 am

TieInterceptor

What on Earth were you suggesting? I am not in the army but even my common sense tells me that once you've made a decision to engage in war you don't announce your tactics to enemy and scream: I'm at GPS coordinates so and so come and get me!!!

176. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90770 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 9:59 am

FK now you're asking for too much. Yes it is in Arabic. But of course you want to wrestle with the context of a medieval text written in a language you don't understand. With your random quotations of taqiyya this and dar al harb that you fooled me into thinking you knew what you're talking about.

Fair enough. I'll fetch you the English. By the way the 7373 is the number in the Bukhari text not the 7373rd hadith in the Tawheed.

Alternatively see what your dodgy Christian fundamentalists friends have to say about it. It is too famous hadith to escape your attention.

177. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90735 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 8:28 am

FK, Here is the link

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=10944

By the way most people hear of the dark texts you refer to from the critics. That Bukhari is a large book that is written in a language almost impenetrable to the modern arabic speaker.


Anyways I can fetch you all kind of mushy ahadiths as well like the one where Muhammad cuts the end of his robe so as not to disturb a cat sleeping on it. The hadiths are hopelessly contradictory but one thing that strikes you is that this man started very millitant (fresh from persecution) then softened up.

I don't know about the poets who were killed but I know that when he sent 70 of the Quran reciters to peacefully invite a neighbouring tribe to Islam all were beheaded but Muhammad didn't retaliate. He wisened up as he grew older (and more powerful).

The reason why most muslims aren't bin Ladens is that the source texts become more mature and less vitriolic generally speaking as one follows the historical timeline.

Sorry , have to go, get back to you later

178. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90684 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 5:52 am

Goatboy

Can never outdo you and your strange friends.

179. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90679 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 5:41 am

Sorry the text was in Arabic. I will fetch the English translation.
Anyway it's number 7373 in the Bukhari text (Book of Tawheed)

180. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90678 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 5:40 am

Fanusi

Why have you not heard of the entry-level well-known hadith on Muadh Ibn Jabal:

- ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???: ??? ????? -??? ???? ???? ????-: ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???: ???? ?????? ????. ???: ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???: ???? ?????? ????. ???: ?? ?? ?????? .

Towards the end of his life Muhammad said that Allah has an obligation not to torture people. Now that doesnt' make sense after all those scary Meccan chapters. You'll find that the scholars will confuse you with things like: the hadith concerns only those who are good muslims. Well the wording is ambiguous and as I said this is what drove me nuts.

I don't have the other texts but if you haven't heard about them then you need to do some serious research on the religion before you start quoting things randomly. Have you not come across the passage where a mother starts looking for her baby among the dead in a battle and upon seeing her embrace her child Muhammad says to his companions:
Do you think this woman would throw her child into the fire? The men say no and Muahmmad says that Alalh is more merciful than that.

By the way how could it escape your logic that the hadith on War is deception rfers to open war when the thing has been procalimed publicly. Of course you'd need tactics to win the bloody war. You were referring to the situation where suposedly muslims are encourage to deceive people that they are at peace with.

Fanusi, if you're quite serious about criticizing Islam why not tackle the serious connundrums as opposed to making things up. There are plenty: divine hiddenness, the pathetic excuse for why god made people, contradiction between Quran and hadith on the issue of freedom of religion/expression...etc

181. Rock of Ages, Ages of Rock

Comment #90654 by Vinelectric on November 26, 2007 at 3:32 am

How can Intelligent Design lose out at a court of law only to let creationists through the backdoor? Is there nothing to regulate educational institutions (e.g public museums) ?

182. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90503 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 11:05 am

Goatboy

Amen to the "streaming pile of shit"?
Yeah, that prayer was answered when we were honoured with the company of yourself, Fanusia and.. can't remember who else it was.

183. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90499 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 11:01 am

Seems like you need a billion pages of justification to explain every single phrase out of Mohammed's mouth.

I'd have to agree with that. This is what drove me nuts and made me give up! However if you listen carefully, the man mellowed up by the end of his career and retracted many of his statements e.g when he said that Allah has no right to punish people!! Can you believe that? I wasn't impressed but, anyway, I get your point and this time I'm not being facetious..

184. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90496 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 10:56 am

Fanusi, look up those historical texts again. Early muslims were quite blunt about their proposition: accept Islam or else..! That taqiyya of yours was a conspiracy theory dreamt up by childish sunni historians who thought that the Shiites were all over the place in disguise.. too rubbish to even comment on.

There is no text in Islam to promote deception. I bet you didn't know that.

185. The absurd world of Martin Amis

Comment #90494 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 10:41 am

Strong words Summer Seale. You sound very brave indeed. We should all destroy the enemy.

186. How condescension benefits terrorism

Comment #90477 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 9:08 am

Fanusi for once you've cheered me up.

Yeah, a bleeding special pleading liberal.. my friends will like that!!!!

187. URGENT APPEAL: Please Help Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #90456 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 7:35 am

Goatboy let me "use some words to make you think" in the style of Van Gogh:

You and your family are goatfuckers and if you happen to be Jewish then your diabetic ancestors must have tasted of caramel in the gas chambers and that you must have wet dreams where you climax and scream: Auschwitz!

Now if you happen to have a psycopath in your family who murders me then you should praise me as a hero of free speech. You should also remind others after my death that I was as noble as Sam Harris and his well argued works. There is no difference really. Nevermind the fact that it is so blindingly obvious that it appears to be otherwise.

If you don't understand what I'm talking about I may need to reprint this passage several times as you'd have nothing new to say each time you tried to demonstrate the flaw in my thinking.

Thanks for wasting my time. No more from me on this thread.

Vincent

188. Tony Blair: Mention God and you're a 'nutter'

Comment #90434 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 6:13 am

I have no problem with voting for a religious president. Remember we are a secular country (sepearte church from state) not an exclusively atheistic one. What really matters is the man's political agenda.

As steve pointed out civil partnerships for homosexuals were sanctioned under Labour. Is there any evidence that Blair's personal convictions corrupted his political decisions? Not apparently.

Hitchens supported the invasion of Iraq. Again there is no indication that Blair's religiosity had anything to do with it. There was still a case to be made in support of that decsision irrespective of religion.

189. How condescension benefits terrorism

Comment #90423 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 4:53 am

I'm not sure how he can be certain that Hirsi Ali has no influence. How does he know what seeds she is planting in the minds of Muslim women?

I don't know if Hirsi Ali may not have been aware of feminist movements within Islam itself. The veil, genital mutilation, participation in politics...etc have been targeted by reformers since the 1960s. In Iran, Shiite feminists call for those obsessed by preserving virginity to remember that only one of Muhammad's wives was virgin at marriage (the famous nine year old Aisha) and that many women in early Islam were scholars, fighters and ran their own business. That can be done whilst still conforming to Islamic principles and thus Hirsi Ali's work is alien to the Middle Eastern mindset. Her claim that Islamic reform is impossible can only appeal to those who know the middle east through second hand informants.

I think that explains why the British government seeks to listen to semi-fundamentalists such as Tariq Ramadan. They know that the muslim community is unlikely to embrace secularism through the shock tactics of "Enlightment Fundamentalists" and their ill thought efforts to reform the community by undermining it completely. For the time being what is desperately needed is to reverse the recent sprout of fundamentalist ideology and for that you need to cooperate with those who understand that mindset better. Commons sense, really.

190. Taking Science on Faith

Comment #90415 by Vinelectric on November 25, 2007 at 4:19 am

All science proceeds on the assumption that nature is ordered in a rational and intelligible way

This is not factual and I hope Quantum physicists will write back to criticize this article. The building blocks of matter appear to interact with their environment in a way that is neither linear nor certain. There is no presumption that they will and that contrasts with theological belief systems.

Einstein rules when Newton fails and thus we accept that the models of material behaviour that we call the "Physical Laws" are but more like 'useful approximations' than set laws.

191. URGENT APPEAL: Please Help Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #90294 by Vinelectric on November 24, 2007 at 4:17 am

You have criticised me personally by asserting that I "know nothing" about the efforts made by people other than Ayaan Hirsi Ali to change Islamic societies.

So now you claim that you do know something about secular writers in the Islamic world and yet you still you support her cause with such fervor. I'm baffled.

You've extrapolated my harsh criticsm on Van Gogh's statements into defending Boyeuri. It is not my problem that you were not careful on reading my posts. I've reiterated what I think of murder but you don't seem to care. You've decided to slander me irrespective of what I said.

I repeat: murder is wrong, bigotry is wrong. I wouldn't change my mind on Hitler or Jerry Fallwell if they'd been murdered by someone else. Do you really believe that Van Gogh wanted to reach out to the muslim community? By inciting hatred against the whole community through misrepresenting them on his film and calling them goatfuckers?

You've misrepresented me once again on saying that I think Van Gogh wrote dehumanising statements just because he attacked the muslim community. Did you not read what I said about his vulgar attacks on the Jewish people?

OK I will not persuade you to apologise for your slander (in the NHS you could lose your job for crap like that) and you will not be able to persuade me to respect your views on Hirsi Ali. I'll leave it at that. Better donate to the red cross or do something mroe useful to humanity. Who cares if you're right or wrong or if Hirsi Ali deserves the obscene amount of money she needs to live in the US and work for the neo cons.

192. Romney's Mormonism is fair game

Comment #90291 by Vinelectric on November 24, 2007 at 3:21 am

Trouble is, the creed is often inseparable from the person.

Is that true?

Ideally that would be true but not in the real world, apparently.
Millions of people pretend to follow christianity or Islam but a few seem to live by the rules of their medieval texts.

And by the way Goldy I don't know how it is possible to criticize the statement "most mormons are good people" by saying that a certain mormon bloke committed underage sex.

193. You can't be moral without God!

Comment #90191 by Vinelectric on November 23, 2007 at 11:21 am

I don't have evidence that books have pages either.

And even if you did then you wouldn't have evidence that such evidence is evidential of that proposition.

194. You can't be moral without God!

Comment #89993 by Vinelectric on November 22, 2007 at 10:45 am

God must have said: "let there be disease" and "it was".

There are many acts of God that do not conform to our understanding of morality. It is as if humans have evolved a sense of morality that transcend's Gods' own.

No two would disagree that torture is immoral but God seems to promote it sometimes and abhor it other times. His sense of morality is neither consistent nor non-arbitrary. It is simply unreliable.

On the other hand modern humanist values seem to possess a sense of integrity and uniformity that the theistic God desperately lacks. Even if we accept the more peaceful messages of Jesus one would be struck at the sudden change of direction that God must have taken at the point when he decided to reveal his earthly presence. This God has no moral stability and his character can not be relied upon as a guidance for anything meaningful in life.

His moral sense seems to be evolving.

You can't say that goodness is integral to his character because that meant different things at different times.

195. URGENT APPEAL: Please Help Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #88985 by Vinelectric on November 19, 2007 at 12:23 pm

Goatboy

Madness! In a world where famine and disease claim thousands we sit here debating whether some person is right to opt for the more expensive of two options to keep their personal security.

The problem with Ayaanis that, to the muslim world, her target community, she is completely useless. Secular thinkers such as Miss Sultan and Mr Arkon are doing a pretty good job at selling the secular cause to the masses. They are as forceful and upfront as you'd hope but they don't resort to the services of a foul mouthed scum to hurt the feelings of a community that's struggling to find it's direction after the wounds it inflicted on itself by allowing fundamentalism to flourish within completely unchecked.

But what do you know of the efforts of those who forsake the expensive spotlight to make a genuine difference in the middle east? Nothing. Absoloutely nothing. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

The only hope for the middle east to progress is to get it to secularise. I feel proud when friends find Arkon's books stimulating their thoughts on the validity of religion but feel terribly let down by Hiris Ali's shock tactics on her silly little film: "Submission". She sure knows that her misfortunate story would shock most women in the middle east (save Saudi Arabia) but yet she's selling it as a normal practice within the community.

If it weren't for the book sales why else is she doing that? Freedom of speech? Learn from those authors who know how to really make a difference. She is not doing the community any service. She's only feeding the shortsighted ultra-Islamophobes like yourself and that psychologically challenged Fanusi.

And about that holy martyr Van Gogh.

Forget about the muslim community, they're subhuman and might as well be goatfuckers for all that Van Gogh could see. What sick and petrid psychology would prompt anyone to talk about the caramel taste of burning diabetic Jews?

By the way I never said I supported Boyeuri. You've simply made that up so please retract that comment immediately and apologise for the slander. You see I'm not Jewish and no longer Muslim yet I still feel outraged everytime I read some of those sordid articles of his. How can you not?

I am a secular humanist. To me, murder is wrong, bigotry is wrong and the abuse of free speech in that way is a fraud. Tragic deaths do not absolve people from the crimes they have committed against humanity whether it be physical crimes or dehumanising speech.

196. URGENT APPEAL: Please Help Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #88720 by Vinelectric on November 18, 2007 at 4:56 pm

Goatboy wrote

Think about living such a limited life, for just a moment. Would you do it? More to the point: should you *have* to do it?

If her security difficulties weren't so well publicized maybe she'd be a bit safer anyway.


To answer your question, I personally wouldn't. But neither did she have to collaborate with the man who kept on referring to a whole community of muslims as "goatfuckers" and said that Jews climax on the mention of Auschwitz. Sometimes people wind up as heroes of free speech by following the footsteps of the scum of the earth. How ironic.

Why not follow the examples of Wafa Sultan and Muhammad Arkon (especially the latter) whose efforts on secularising the muslim world have found an audience among those who see no need for Hirsi Ali's disgusting "submission" film project. You'll find Arkon's works on public libraries while none of Hirsi Ali's books are ever likely to reach out to the community that concerns her most.

If she stays in the Netherlands and take a few years leave from the spotlight she has the option to resurface with a less poignant and more effective approach as opposed to the direct provocation that neither she nor her country's government is able to cope with (financially). And dare I say of no consequence outside Alice Harris's and Alice Hitchens' wonderland.

Too late to turn back now but if she's come all the way from Somalia, sure she'd find the patience to stay low for a little while.

197. Saudi gang-rape victim is jailed

Comment #88401 by Vinelectric on November 16, 2007 at 1:35 pm

Bloody hell!

We're not going tabloid now. Or are we, Josh?

198. Mind your manners

Comment #88227 by Vinelectric on November 15, 2007 at 1:17 pm

Henri is oblivious to the actual content of the different competing ideologies he referred to but that is misleading.

The current political climate/ideology owes itself to those who argue best in its favour. In a democracy such ideologies come to power not through the incessant threat of eternal damnation and emotional blackmailing as religion has done but through dialogue and the rallying of public opinion towards a desired direction.

The other difference is that, in contrast to fascism or pre-enlightment christianity, democratic/secular systems do not automatically seek to brutally exclude competing ideologies except through public and rational discourse. Sadly this seems to apply to relatively stable (and affluent-Western) societies only.

Still the current air of secular humanism is incomparable to the days when marxism, socialism or christianity prevailed. You'd have to try hard to ignore the difference.

199. Why Science Will Triumph Only When Theory Becomes Law

Comment #88057 by Vinelectric on November 14, 2007 at 12:29 pm

Alternatively, educate the public about the difference between 'theory' and 'hypothesis'.

Evolutionary change lacks the overall uniformity and predictability that the effect of gravity has on accelerating masses. The word 'Law' thus sounds inappropriate.

200. Dr Bari: Government stoking Muslim tension

Comment #87317 by Vinelectric on November 11, 2007 at 7:46 pm

Muslims have got to learn a few things....

Their religion doesn't make them special,
they're not liked because of the very words this so called leader of Muslims has just spoke.
That they are the problem, not us.

I should add: "and that's for their own sake before anyone else's".