151. 'People say I'm strident'

Comment #271179 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 11:36 am

Also Richard sounds slightly despondent in this article, but I can't help thinking that the situation would be much worse without the work that he has put in since he graduated.

152. 'People say I'm strident'

Comment #271163 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 11:19 am

Dawkins critics are sounding shrill and strident. The way I look at it after reading thousands of comments most of which leapt to Richards' defense is that this is a short term set back.

He gets in the first punch, they reel, they build a strategy of trying to discredit him and "dead agent" him in the minds of his target audience.

Thing is, that strategy only works for a short period of time, a "yeah whatever" effect starts to take whenever that criticism is made. Eventually.

But how to shorten this lead time to balance?

Two ways I can think of:

1. Provoke the religious apologists to become even more shrill.

2. Don't provoke, just mock them and predict their response before they make it.

One of the highest ranking comments on one of the threads over on the Guardian was a send up of the shrill militant atheist argument.

Religion has a choleric temper, irritate it.

153. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #271076 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 9:16 am

http://www.justgiving.com/faithschools

This probably deserves some publicity. I'm thinking about how much to give, anyone have an inside track on how effective the BHA is on this issue?

154. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #271024 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 7:11 am

I'm wrong, although I notice he does put some money in the jar:

Joe Morereale 25/10/2008 £3.00 n/a THERE IS NO GOD,BUT NO GOD!!!

155. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #271020 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 7:08 am

Well Joe Morrealle posted on Comment Is Free on the Grauniad about the atheist bus campaign before he gave up hopelessly outgunned.

So I guess him?

156. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270987 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 4:53 am

Epeeist

"If it remains tongue-in-cheek (as the bus advertisement is meant to be) or inward looking then the impetus will be lost. If instead it looks outward then there could be a chance it will have more influence."

Well this has to be the first stage, it achieved two great things so far:

1. Reminded many atheists that they are not alone, and that they can rally around a cheerful message.

2. Drew out the curmudgeonly religious into a massive over-reaction which is archived permanently for all to see.

This is without any rubber hitting the road. Now there are likely to be many incidents of interference, threats and problems between now and the first advert going up which will play further into the hands of the atheist/agnostic/humanist.

How does one go from this simple message, intelligently delivered, to an outward looking campaign, and what would make a campaign?

In a nutshell "what do you mean?".

157. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270972 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 2:23 am

Well he has also proven yet again that some people DO need a fixed moral code and a celestial surveillance camera in order to be civilised. Unfortunately he has also shown that The Bible is pretty ineffective at it.

158. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270968 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 2:08 am

Steve. Masterly. Bravo.

159. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #270967 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 2:07 am

Theres more to thrown onto that particular bonfire of his vanity if you want. I strongly recommend David print out his posts on this thread and the other and show it to his vicar/pastor and ask whether or not he is showing Christian virtue.

Not having been a Christian myself, I only have a technical understanding of the errors he has made so far today. However, there might be the odd holy let out clause that allows him to behave in this less than virtuous manner without pause.

160. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270964 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 1:59 am

David

You obviously read the articles as well as you did the Bible.

"
The British Humanist Association will be administering all donations to the campaign, and Professor Richard Dawkins, bestselling author of The God Delusion, has generously agreed to match all contributions up to a maximum of £5,500, giving us a total of £11,000 if we raise the full amount. This will be enough to fund two sets of atheist adverts on 30 London buses for four weeks.
The British Humanist Association will be administering all donations to the campaign, and Professor Richard Dawkins, bestselling author of The God Delusion, has generously agreed to match all contributions up to a maximum of £5,500, giving us a total of £11,000 if we raise the full amount. This will be enough to fund two sets of atheist adverts on 30 London buses for four weeks. "

Can you see where it is yet?

Pratt.

161. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #270958 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 1:50 am

David:

It is a doctrine that you claim to believe in, not me. I can and always have been able to behave myself without believing in a celestial surveillance camera.

Tip, you just did it again. Dear oh dear.

162. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #270949 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 1:30 am

David, seriously, go and read that Bible you claim to follow. You seem to be rather lacking in a few quite critical Christian virtues.

Or perhaps you don't really believe anymore, like so many Christians just want to be part of a team of mutual enablers?

Sounds like atheism is starting to permeate your "soul".

Now stop worrying, and enjoy your life.

163. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270946 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 1:27 am

If you did even the most basic research (like reading the two articles you have posted on), you'd have the answer to your questions.

As for being desperate, you can only hope I think, your comment smacks of bed wetting desperation.

The fiscal comparisons are telling, you sound very materialistic for a Christian.

164. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270934 by Dr Doctor on October 25, 2008 at 12:38 am

Slogans:

"Atheists: Free from religion"

"Atheism: Freedom from religion."

"Seek comfort in the truth"

"Think."

"A militant atheist (picture of Dawkins smiling), a militant believer (a picture of Bin Laden with an AK-47)."
------------------------------

As an atheist, I'm looking forward to a nice weekend of walks, sailing, catching up with old friendships, downing some booze and if I'm lucky a bit of good old fornication.

On Sunday we might sacrifice a chicken to the greater good, indulge in a bit of sloth, some lust and I might even get onto some greed with a slice of chocolate cake.

165. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270560 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 9:32 am

Another sop of an article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/24/religion-atheism

...this time by Andrew Brown.

166. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270539 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 9:08 am

It just broke the 100,000 barrier thanks to:

Simon Bishop 24/10/2008 £2,000.00 n/a Goodbye savings. Good night Steve in OZ :)

167. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270523 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 8:42 am

Bonzai: Good, I must have paged down past it.

GFA: Yes please.

168. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270485 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 7:47 am

All the good comments have been deleted. Included was one about her comment about humanist funerals being depressing, saying something like "Yeah, sure, and every Christian funeral I have been to has been a blast."

169. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270459 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 7:07 am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/24/atheism-religion

Probably the worst article yet.

"
Atheists, enjoy life?
Most of the non-believers I've encountered are gloomy blighters with a depressing message that there is no purpose to life
"

It gets worse from there. If she was a man I'd say she was in desperate need of a blow-job.

170. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270436 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 6:40 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7687324.stm

Made the BBC Quiz of the week:


London buses could soon be displaying advertising posters that have given rise to some controversy. What is the proposed slogan?

A: There is probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.

B: Unemployment rises in recessions. Women should leave the jobs to men.

C: There is no such thing as adultery. Just sex between consenting adults.

171. No-God squad climb aboard the atheist bus

Comment #270425 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 6:31 am

Us grumpy old sods too.

172. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270413 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 6:19 am

There has to be mileage in an "militant atheist" poster.

Something like Christopher Hitchens' face on Rambo's body toting a cigar instead of a gun (and cigars instead of bullet-belts) saying "There probably is no god, mutha-f*cker!"

Or something better, more ironic. This meme has to be addressed.

173. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270374 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 5:33 am

Atheists are just people who see no need for the God hypothesis.

This is somewhat different to the agnostic point of view who essentially claim they have no dog in this fight and imply a 50:50 probability.

Because religious groups are getting more shrill, strident and militant in politics and pushing their agenda it is the right time for the atheist voice to be heard.

174. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270362 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 5:09 am

Wonder if this is THE Simon Pegg?

" Simon Pegg 24/10/2008 £25.00 £7.05 Genius! So good to be able to actively support rationality "

175. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270357 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 4:56 am

If you book them, they will come.

176. Death for apostasy?

Comment #270354 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 4:54 am

It is always gratifying when you find you share the same opinions as someone else.

177. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270350 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 4:50 am

"Atheists "believe" there is no God and believers "believe" there is. Believers of both camps are acknowledging that actually they don't know, so in terms of the information they possess they are identical."

Well, that might be true from a 14 billion lightyear away perspective but the information possessed is not common nor is it equal. One of the biggest struggles is to get atheists to read the religious literature and listen to the claims and the other biggest struggle is to get the theists to read a bit of science. If we all had equal information in common, then you might have a point. The contents of the internet demonstrate without a doubt that we are not all equally ignorant of the same things.

"I don't get the impression that any of the campaign members have such information, so why do they want to advertise their ignorance on the side of a bus'! How does that take anyone any further forward'"

Advertising ignorance is a powerful message, especially to those who are certain about things. In your own first post on this board (welcome aboard) you do much the same thing. Those who wish to be certain then have to be "shrill and strident" about why they are certain.

"Until someone on either side comes up with some new information, let's stop wasting our time and money and get on with something more useful and enjoyable, as the slogan itself suggests."

Lets not. Lets all individually make up our minds what we want to do and not let ourselves be patronised into anything, or nothing.

178. Debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #270311 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 3:19 am

CuriousOrange

Well just because you claim it, doesn't make it true. So, I provide no working out. Did you ask for it? You simply reject them as "not credible" without saying why. Therefore your rejection, by your own rules is not credible.

Are bodies not buried? Has no one ever buried a body somewhere and not let on? Has a body never been left somewhere to rot? Once a body has rotten to a certain extent do you think bronze age forensics is up to the job of identifying it? Has no one ever lied? Have bodies never been burned before?

You are right, that 5 is the most probable (although that isn't what you said, but it is what you mean). There are no contemporaneous accounts that back up this Bible story. Given the Bible itself is inconsistent on the story it is not even a credible record in itself (and for many other reasons too numerous to get into here).

But the psychology of your position I find the most interesting. You set yourself up as the person who needs to be impressed by the atheists alternatives.

Why?

Not why should we even provide them, but why? Do you think we have any interest in converting you? I certainly don't. If you want or need to believe in fairy tales then I wouldn't kick that crutch out from under you in the same way that I wouldn't tell someone else's child that "Father Christmas" doesn't exist.

What you believe is of no consequence to me, until you wave it in front of my face and expect me to be impressed with sophomore assertions.

Then, I have a choice. I can either do what Steve does, point out your logical fallacies and be polite to you. Be slightly sarcastic, which is my favourite, or I can ignore you.

Given you don't want to be ignored, I have to ask:

Provide reasoning, grounded in the real world, why you think Jesus's body not being found in the tomb is because of [insert your explanation here].

I'll hear you out, and if it is logical, and consistent, I won't even laugh.

179. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270292 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 2:16 am

Think of the above...

Who you gonna call?
1. A priest
2. The police
3. Your friends

180. Debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #270289 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 2:07 am

Some more "nonsensical" answers for you:

1. Buried it somewhere else.
2. Left it somewhere to rot.
3. Lied about the body being there.
4. Cremated it somewhere else...

...and of course... the other one...

5. It is a pack of lies from start to finish. The events describe did not happen in the way they were described.

But oh no, that obviously isn't the case ... so thats me converted to Christianity. When can I start oppressing women and homosexuals? Can I start now or do I have to wait for the mail order Bible to arrive?

181. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #270278 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 1:17 am

Styrer

I'd not seen the other one, but I'm listening to it now. In both Boteach shrieks inanities into the microphone and makes an ass of himself.

Hitchens is formidable in his quiet authority.

I thought I'd never say that Hitchens is "quiet" in any way shape nor form, but given I've just had to turn the volume down....

182. 'Probably' the best atheist bus campaign ever

Comment #270273 by Dr Doctor on October 24, 2008 at 12:52 am

Just a thought, how about if we did put together a shop with various logos on t-shirts and bumper stickers. There are plenty of "design your own and sell them" online sites out there.

My three favourite of my own that I'd like to do anyway, to wear when I travel:

1. On one side "Stop faith schools" on the other "Oi, preacher! Leave them kids alone!"

2. One side picture of a dog growing with a paw on a copy of the Qu'ran, other side logo "Every dog has its day."

3. One side picture of an explosion, other side picture of a human child. Wording "A lot can happen in 14 billion years."

Or would it be terribly crass?

183. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #269637 by Dr Doctor on October 23, 2008 at 7:45 am

I wonder how many people dive into faith because it provides an excuse for their innermost desires.

Rather than, say, behaving in a certain despicable way because of religion.

184. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #269628 by Dr Doctor on October 23, 2008 at 7:40 am

Styrer

Just send him a link to the Hitchens vs Boteach debate.

185. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #269590 by Dr Doctor on October 23, 2008 at 6:57 am

isthatclear:

Great send up of a nut-job theist, please keep it up!

Haven't laughed so much since ... well ... since I read the platitude of the day site.

186. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #269584 by Dr Doctor on October 23, 2008 at 6:50 am

"How DARE he get away with being labelled "Liberal"! "
the same way he gets away with describing people like you as strident?

187. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #269523 by Dr Doctor on October 23, 2008 at 5:31 am

Thanks for all the kind comments. This is probably the first even online rant I've written that I wasn't embarrassed about 10 minutes later.

188. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #269397 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 11:36 pm

This is a bit of a rant, but my anger has been slowly building for the last 48 hours.

Ive found hundreds of comments out there utterly repugnant. Heaping abuse on Richard. They range from the absurd "strutting bully", the usual "militant" "rabid" to the downright .... well, lets put it this way I dread to think how Richard must feel reading some of them.

It seems that if you stand up and say what you think, if it is atheist in nature, you are fair game.

Ignore the fact that those heaping scorn and criticism on the man have obviously never read one word of his writings (nor, it seems the article which they are using as a basis for their criticism).

I suppose I asked for it really, bothering to spend some time around the forums again after work load imposed a hermit like existence on me. I went out there to look at the reaction.

There are so many claiming to be atheist out there joining in the abuse. Now I don't think that being atheist means that you shouldn't criticise Dawkins, nor other atheists. But there is a difference between criticism, slander and abuse.

On the other side we have the religious claiming that this is somehow good for them. Yes, ok, I won't throw you into that briar patch then.

It must be a symptom of a deeper malaise. Intimidation of atheists, homosexuals and women have to run the gauntlet of abuse, scorn and threats in order to be heard.

What can be done? Not to go quietly into the night but some of these comments and attitudes deserve to be ridiculed. The whole "militant" and "strident" tactic has to be addressed as it is a meme that is obviously catching on.

I also caught (and flagged) some racist abuse of Ariane on the Guardian comments. What the writer thought they were saying was beyond me, but suffice to say that if we were all to go back home a small region of Africa would become very crowded.

Until recently I'd thought that such abusive hysterical over-reactions to atheism and agnosticism(aka cowardice) were limited to the USA and the Middle East. It is depressing to think that Great Britain is also a hotbed of intolerant hypocritical scumbags.

Perhaps, given where I live, I should butt out. But this decline cannot be allowed to continue and we cannot be intimidated into mealy mouthing or being meek.

Religious privilege in law, in tax and in the minds of the people has to cease. There is a basic inequality here that is just as unjust as any other discrimination.

189. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268707 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 6:56 am

*cringe* I'm sorry about that. If it makes it any better it comes from a tax rebate.

If anyone wants to see their blood pressure rise, check out the comments on Ariane's article on the guardian.

About 1/3 the way down the page.

All 1419 of them.

Most of them are just excuses for ad hom on Dawkins, self indulgent preening, condescending scum.

But the sheer volume of religious foot bullets and also "I'm an atheist but ... [this is too strident]" comments on there from obvious fundies flying under a false flag.

Someone does something vaguely positive and definitely harmless and it provokes all this?

Now, tell me again why the campaign is going to be ineffective? The mere start of it has provoked a massive debate and has shaken the tree of the smug.

190. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268618 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 3:33 am

mmurray: Problem with the site.

191. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268611 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 3:23 am

"Simon Bishop 22/10/2008 £1,250.00 n/a Watching the overwhelming response to this campaign is like seeing a light at the end of a long tunnel of irrational mumbo jumbo. Let there be light! "

Christ!

192. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268603 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 3:14 am

Quetzalcoatl

Sorry, I said nutters, I thought that would be enough. My favourite caller was an evangelical christian who has just returned from a church service who rings in and slams Stephen Green for trying to inhibit the core right of freedom of speech.

193. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268596 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 2:49 am

Listen to the nutters call in:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00f0x8g

194. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268595 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 2:48 am

Its because the front page generates a comment digest but does not strip the html tags first.

This means there is an open style declaration that causes a strikethrough, but the bit that removes the strikethrough is not present, having been lopped off by the digest.

The comment in question is the murray one.

195. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268582 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 2:15 am

Fundraising target: £5,500.00
Donations so far: £ 55,004.90

Ding ding ding!

196. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268575 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 2:03 am

Black background, on the left a star, on the right a human being.

Slogan

[star]"A lot can happen in 14 billion years."[human]

197. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268544 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 12:41 am

"It's not catchy, I agree. But to me 'Children are born atheists' was a big consciousness raiser. Maybe somebody with literary skills or marketing experience could turn i to a better phrase. I'm still working on it."

Picture of children, one per multicultural background with "BORN ATHEIST".

198. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268514 by Dr Doctor on October 21, 2008 at 10:46 pm

Well the good thing is that the slogan isn't too serious minded. Earnest conversation and discussion is all very well but times are grim and religious messages are even grimmer.

Having a light hearted but intelligent message on the side of the bus as a campaign opener is ideal. Anyone complaining is going to look curmudgeonly. Anyone defacing the adverts or targeting busses that carry it with violence, intimidation or a campaign is just going to look plain hysterical or churlish to the British people.

In all seriousness, po faced messages don't go down well. The slightly epicurean message is nothing to be ashamed of. With religions fighting over you to join their massed ranks of the mundane and frightened someone standing up and saying "Relax, smile, there probably is no God, just get on with your life and enjoy yourself" is a bolt out of the blue.

In Winter, when the campaign runs, it will be even more welcome.

Sure, it will bring out the whingers, the moaners and the oh-so-terribly earnest. But it is a foot in the door to further media campaigns.

Tobacco companies, when the advertising ban was mooted, used to claim that advertising had no effect (on whether people smoked or not), if that were true - why would they advertise?

This lighten up message is going to drive the batty people out of the woodwork, and that is an effective message on the dangers of religion.

199. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268232 by Dr Doctor on October 21, 2008 at 2:57 pm

The pound sign is not part of the codepage used somewhere along the line. Likely in the web server itself (a simple Apache directive will fix that). But it could also be a foolish definition on a MySQL table but most likely the mbstring function is not being used in the PHP.

Its one of those annoying internationalisation problems. As was pointed out you can use html entities - Josh could also quite easily make a single call to htmlentities on submit to ensure that dodgy characters like pound signs get translated into a form that can always be displayed by your browser.

200. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268231 by Dr Doctor on October 21, 2008 at 2:55 pm

I've long felt that a Pink Floyd lyric could be adapted:

"We don't need no thought control" (atheism)

Perhaps gentler than what I'd like to put:

"Oi, preacher! Leave those kids alone..."