151. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238671 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Bonzai,





Sex bots? We are lucky to escape peak oil for a day.


Sargeist,



When the Saudis conquered Mecca and Medina, they went about breaking every water pipe they could find. So some view it as forbidden. Generally scholar use qiyas (Syllogism) to arrive at the conclusion that any intoxicant is forbidden.

152. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238664 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Sargeist,





The women get to appear as "the prettiest" woman in the world to their husbands. But the Qur'an is vague one women, but Muhammad said that the majority of hell's occupants are women, and when satan appears, he does so as a woman. He made many more disparaging remarks about women, but no need to repeat them.

153. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238660 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 12:56 pm

TWP,


No it isn't in the doctrine. Probably and aversion to body hair.


Bonzai,



Great point. There is a tradition of Muhammad where someone told him that they used to practice "coitus interruptus" and Muhammad told them to knock it off. Sex in Islam is a procreative act, although it is acceptably viewed as a way of deriving pleasure WHILE procreating. I hadn't thought of that juxtaposed with the virgins running about heaven.


The wine in heaven is said to be non-intoxicating, which in my experience defeats the purpose. Wine was not originally prohibited by Allah, it was permissible to drink the date wine that the Arabs produced, but as things grew stricter, the drinking went with much of the rest of tolerance. Wine is specifically forbidden in the Qur'an (khamr), so some Turkish cafes have been serving beer saying "No problem it isn't technically wine".

Love the Turks.

154. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238647 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 12:44 pm

TWP,






I really don't care to speculate on a public forum :-)

155. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238643 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Gregg,






Muhammad once dealt with some women who would wear green veils in protest because their husbands would beat them and it would bruise green. He cursed the women for conspiring against men.


Go figure.

156. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238638 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 12:36 pm

TWP,




Post 9/11 world thought it might pay to understand the culture we were going to end up bombing. Then I got super interested in the study and kept it up.



Diacanu,


Well the Bible is the very same product of Semitic myth. For instance the Midian mentioned in the bible is the Hejaz... Mecca is in the Hejaz. There are overlapping stories between the two (maybe 3 books). Much of the pre-Islamic Arab myth structure is near identical to that of the OT. In fact freud posited that Moses actually died in the Midian, and the Jews then mythologized him. But yes it resembles a catholic church.




Sargeist,


Precisely. Hugh Kennedy spoke at the MESA conference in SF in 2004. He said "once they grew facial hair they had to be found other employment". I laughed pretty hard, which made me the only person laughing pretty hard... the Muslims present did not appreciate this, but I think Hugh Kennedy did.

I have heard stories, personally, of Arab men abusing young boys in absolutely atrocious ways. I don't really care to repeat any of it here.

157. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238625 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 12:26 pm

TWP,





Hugh Kennedy wrote a book called "In the Court of the Caliph" which described, among other tings, the court catamites of the Abbassid period. These were young boys kept for sex. In Arab culture the use and keeping of catamites is a norm and not frowned upon, but rather ignored. In fact it is even given a nod in the description of the hereafter, not only will there be virgins, but young fair boys to serve wine and maybe something else.

However sex with adult men is very Haram, it is unacceptable, and the punishment for the practice is death, in all cases. Male slaves are solely to be used for labor.

Homosexuality is quite common in even the most austere countries. If you go to the Karantina neighborhood in Jeddah, KSA, you can see some subtle hints. I received some discomforting looks in the place, it is mostly filled with shops and street vendors, and these are the ones who will proposition you if no one is around.

158. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238620 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 12:19 pm

H4D,





The men are treated poorly. In Islamic law you can beat your wife so long as it doesn't leave visible marks (which isn't exactly followed to the 't'). Slaves (male and female) may be beaten hard and severely. There are several traditions about this from Muhammad, including an instance where he laughed while Abu Bakr beat a slave in front of him. So based on the prophetic traditions, it is not only acceptable to beat a slave severely, but humorous.

There isn't much on sexual virtue, but more on control of sex. Islam is a religion of control in many, if not all, ways. Sex is the right and focus of the man in Islam. His life is purchased by Allah, and is paid for in the hereafter (with virgins).... to paraphrase the Qur'an. The Muslim is the servant of Allah, and the slave is the servant of the Muslim. All rights conferred to Allah above the Muslim are conferred to the Muslim above the slave. Including rights of sex.

The term for slave in Arabic, 'Abd is also used to describe a servant of Allah. Thus a common name is "God's Bondsman"...Abdullah. Sex fits in this system as well, Allah purchases your life, and pays you in sex in the hereafter, as well as in the present with dominion over women. Sex is a privelege of the man, to be provided by both "free" and slave women.

159. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238605 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 12:08 pm

TWP,




After the slaves are purchased the owner does feed, clother, and house the slaves. They may not leave without permission. She may not refuse intercourse, she is required to acquiesce to sexual advances.

The difference is a Muslim wife is entitled to sex once every 4 nights (to allow for a full compliment of wives) and a slave is not entitled to intercourse, she may be refused by the owner. That in case an affectionate relationship devloped, which often did.

160. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238595 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 11:58 am

Skylark can be hired.


I am going to ask that you go over to HR. We need a completed application and a paw print. Here is the application:


Naym:
Age:
Kurrent Occupashun:
Addrez:
Home Foan:
Selulur Foan:
Desiyurd Salury:
Favorut Color:
Anee Criminul Convikshuns?:

Pleez Sine Naym heer:

161. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238591 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 11:52 am

H4D,





Human Rights Watch put out a report in 2004-2005 called "Nightmares" and was about the abuse of foreign labor in Saudi. It focused on women servants being raped by their male employers. The workers would arrive from India, Somalia, Pakistan, and the Phillipines, they would be given a room, have their passports taken by the employer and be forced to work for low wages. The rape part may be a product of society, or specifically of the individual men responsible. However, it may well be disuasive if Islam actually forbid the practice.

The idea of sex in Islam is one of purchase and ownership... They purchase a slave, and are entitled to sex with her. As for your wife, you pay her a mahr (dowry) and fund her upkeep (food, clothes, etc...) in return she is not allowed to leave the home without permission and she is required to have intercourse with her husband whenever he wishes.

So the idea of ownership of women is quite intrinsic to many understandings of Islam, and is well supported in the cannonical texts.

As for other modern practices, the slave trade flourishes in the Islamic Republic (Jamhuriyya Islamiyya) of Mauritania. The servitude in many of the gulf countries resembles slavery in every way but name. I don't know how precisely tied this is to Islam, as the culture is of permissive inclination (thus Islam is a product of the culture), so even without austere interpretations of Islam, it is permissible.

However sex slavery is common in Russia and its former republics, as well as in Israel (mostly imported from Russia).

162. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238577 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 am

Diacanu,





Thanks. Do what I can.

163. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238568 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 11:25 am

H4D,




Slaves can be taken as war booty in Islam, like after the attack by Muhammad and the Muslims on Khaybar.

The slaves are kept as any slaves (the men). If they become Muslims, it is desireable that they be freed, but this is not mandatory.

As for women, they may be taken as concubines. It is permissible to both force them to work and to have sex with them. A woman slave (like a Muslim wife) may NOT refuse sexual intercourse. Children can be fathered in this manner, but the children must be raised Muslim, although not necessarily freed from slavery. This is essentially license to rape female prisoners from war. So in that sense, a female soldier captured by the Taliban of Al-Qaeda could be raped under Islamic law. This isn't preferred but it is permissible.

So the deeper issue is, Islam has several classes for things and their "acceptability":

Wajib: Required, and obligation, divine reward for this action.
Halal: Permissible.
Mubah: Neither here nor there (coffee or tea).
Makruh: frowned upon, but not forbidden (Smoking).
Haram: Absolutely forbidden, punished in the hereafter for it.


So Slavery is Halal. Sex with slaves is Halal. Freeing them is Halal. There is no Wajib when it comes to their freedon, and their is only Makruh when it comes to their mistreatment.

Also if someone is killed (Muslim or not) blood money can be paid in compensation. Slaves are worth less than Muslims, and women worth less than men (both Muslims and slaves).

164. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238560 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 11:10 am

Bonzai,




Well even Taha went to lengths to justify the institution of Islamic slavery.


Yes, we move from axe wielding barbarians to sword wielding barbarians, maybe we can get to knives in 100 years.

165. Science Has No Place in Politics

Comment #238558 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 11:08 am

Moracious1,




McCain isn't such a social conservative, I doubt he will be appointing creationists. And Bush's appointees have not gone after Roe v. Wade to my knowledge, and Roberts said he didn't want to be the person to overturn it.

But it is a potential source of difference, but rarely happens that way. The militarism is the same from both, the support for distasteful regimes is the same, their blindness to better ways of conducting ourselves for the future is the same. The myopic approach to China is the same.

These guys are virtual clones.




someonefree,



"Don't vote, it only encourages them."

166. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238550 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 11:00 am

TWP,

I have a crush on the bartender here-I'm sure he thinks I have a problem with alcohol.

167. A Teacher on the Front Line as Faith and Science Clash

Comment #238535 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 10:34 am

Sciros,





I started Krav Maga. I absolutely love it. I thought my calling in life was to kill Zombies, but I realize now it is to fight.

I haven't been so pleased with anything since I played professional baseball. After all the cardio we fought (breaking chokes), I had such a rush I couldn't sleep for several hours.


Thanks for turning me on to this.

168. Science Has No Place in Politics

Comment #238518 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 10:01 am

someonfree,





There is little in the way of fundamental differences between Obama and McCain.

As the election has drawn closer, Obama has left his balanced position on Israel-Palestine, he has given up on an end to private campaign finance (read:corruption), he has given up on immediate Iraq withdrawal. He is only another pawn of the corpotocracy. America is an empire, people don't run for emperor to change that, they run to benefit from it, and wield the power.

Look at corporate campaign contributions, they bribe both parties equally, and we have little recourse because we only have two viable choices. Power exists to perpetuate itself, and every four years we get a sham election that merely perpetuates the power in existence. It is almost comical to watch the American people run around staking campaign signs in their lawns and fawning over the next Commander in Thief.


"Don't steal. The government hates competition."

169. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238503 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 9:09 am

Gregg,



Taha was executed as an apostate.


Always a silver lining I guess :-).


Well the views are divided curiously. For instance there are many Muslims that don't really understand that in traditional jurisprudence that the later verses abrogate earlier verses, and thus routinely cite Meccan verses as signs of positive and humanistic views in Islam. There are still others who take a view like Taha, that believe the eternal message is contained in the earlier verses. This is a minority view, one which finds itself at odds with classical Sunni jurisprudence.

170. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238492 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 8:39 am

Quetz,




Well it's difficult to say, the First is focused in the Meccan period but it doesn't cease in the Medinan, it was just not necessarily the focus. So these each are found throughout the entire revelation, but they are emphasized in different epochs.

The Migration (Hijra) to Medina took place in 622, and Muhammad died in 632... thus the Madini period was 10 years. The "revelation" began when Muhammad was 40, so in 610. So the Meccan period was about 12 years long.

Incidentally, 40 was a common age to begin receiving "revelation" in Arabian and Semitic mythg. The Prophet Salih of al-Hijr (Mada'in Salih) began has prophetic career as a child (8 yrs.) but only began receiving the status of empowered prophet at age 40.

171. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238486 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 8:25 am

Anyhow back to topic,






I came across some new Islamic thinkers today, thought I would share their thoughts (and mine) here.


Mahmoud Muhammad Taha is a Sudanese scholar of Islam who rejects some of the fundamental nature of the Shariah (although in the end he is a supporter of Shariah, his ideas vacilate and are quite interesting).

As a background, the Quran is essentially divided into two distinct epochs, 1) Meccan (that revealed in Meccas) 2) Medinan (that revealed in Medina). I have in turn coined the themes of these two periods, and a transitional as well.

1) Uluhiyya (Divinity, dealing with God and his nature, unity, etc...)... {Meccan}
2)Rububiyya (Lordship of Allah over all things, his power and means)... {Meccan}
3) Nabuwiyya (Prophethood, the nature of the prophets and Muhammad's status thereine, their functions and their essential natures) {Meccan and Medinan... transitional}
4) Mushru'iyya (That pertaining to law and regulation of the Umma, Shariah)... {Medinan}


The distinct features of the Meccan period are ones of definition and reconciliation. The Meccan chapters read like Semitic literature of numerous cultures in the region. It relates stories familiar to the Arabs from the Nabataean Period, from the Hebrews, from the Lihyanites, and the Syrians. This period was an attempt at reaffirmation of the notion of Monotheism, in the context of familiar Arab mythopeaia.


The Medinan period comes after the Muslims have immigrated to Yathrib (Medina), and had gained military strength. Muhammad no longer needed the introduction via the Arab myth and legend, he no longer needed the context of familiar Semitic legends. It becam harsh and caustic, and much of the violence and intolerance we see in the Qur'an is contained in this epoch's writings.

Now, Mahmoud Muhammad Taha says that the Medinan period was not the eternal message of Islam, instead the Meccan period was. And that this makes him, in a sense, and "ultra-fundamentalist". He says the more concilliatory aspects of the Meccan period are the universal truth of Islam. Furthermore he derides the notion of Naskh (abrogation) which states that if two verses are contradictory the later verse abrogates the former, this usually means a Medinan verse abrogates a Meccan verse. Taha says that this is wrong for the modern era and that the reverse is true, the eternal message of the Meccan epoch abrogates, a priori, the verses of the Medinan epoch.

This means that the concilliatory message contained in Surat al-Kafirun ("Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion"), overrides the verses that preach intolerance to other faiths.


Taha also advocated the liberation of women, he was an integral figure in the Sudanese independence movement, and founder of the Sudanese Republican Party.

172. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238469 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 7:50 am

I am going to post on her video:




"Why are you still wearing clothes?"

173. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238447 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 7:14 am

Laurie,





Why did you put an absolutely adorable child as your avatar? Was this done to soften my hardened heart?

174. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238437 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 6:49 am

I don't have sound. But she looked pretty good.


I hire based on looks anyway.

175. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238428 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 6:33 am

Quetz,





Who cares about cleaning, Joe Morreale is the janitor.

176. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238425 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 6:26 am

Quetz,




I was thinking of hiring Wooter as town theist. I can stand him much more than I can R. Morgan.

177. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238417 by al-rawandi on August 28, 2008 at 6:00 am

Gregg,




So granted, I certainly wasn't going to hire R. Morgan.

178. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238023 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Hey hey hey,




I am still developing the court....



I am nominating TWP my chief alcohol consultant (incidentally the most important and most well payed position).

And quetz is the Seargant at Arms (being a big scary dragon god suited you to the position)



So to recap:


King of everything: Me
Chief Advisor: Fanusi
Court Jester: Irate
Chief Demographer: Nairb
Commendant of Booze: thewhitepearl
Seargant (dragon) at Arms: Quetz



Gardner: Qomak.... (Joe Morreale was booked)

179. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #238000 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 1:38 pm

Tez,



No no no, it is a like like "proof reading" or "spell checking".

180. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237998 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Qomak,

Now, if Fanusi and TWP would like to challenge this, they can simply reference to professionals who have come up with the same proposals.

181. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237989 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 1:32 pm

TWP, Vaal, FSM,




The self flagellation involved in the Ashura festival is quite barbaric. It is routinely practiced on the 10th day of of the month of Muharram in Iraq and Iran (among other places).

It is a date revered by the Shi'a because it was the date the son of Imam Ali (4th Caliph, son in law of Muhammad, and most revered figure in Shi'a Islam next to Muhammad) Husayn was martyred at the battle of Karbala' (Iraq). This festival reminds all Shia of the value of martyrdom. It involves the flogging of the back and chest as well as the slicing of skin with knives and swords.

Goodle some images of Ashura, if you dare.

182. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237947 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 12:57 pm

MPhil,







That is basically what I was driving at, but I was being terse. There is no need to divulge any more power to the government than that which is absolutely at a bare minimum.

183. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237931 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 12:27 pm

TWP,




Menodicon County. Top secret spot though.


Big game (Deer, Black Bear, Wild Boar) and upland game birds (Quail). I just hope I don't stumble onto a Marijuana farm.... I don't have a big enough back pack.


I went to the Army Surplus store yesterday and got a bunch of hunting gear as I lost my other stuff. It is the second best day of the year.

184. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237926 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 12:16 pm

epeeist,




Actually camping. Nice.


I get to do some camping at the end of Sept. I have a hunting trip for a week. Rugged wilderness, the whole 9 yards.

185. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237908 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 11:51 am

Nairb,






You are hereby assigned the post of Chief Demographer. You will be given land, title, and a carriage drawn by two of the fastest horses in the land... please report to wardrobe to be sized for your "demographer costuem".

I agree that Fanusi's proposals are sometimes unattainable.


I think he disdains "Shariah" and wants no part of it. Good, me too. But I don't think he has outlined a coherent plan to deal with the threat (in immigration). I don't see an outline of a plan that would both solve the problems and maintain the sanctity of individual rights.


In terms of solving this problem, we have got this far:


1) Identify the problem
2) Outline the nature of it
3) Determine its source


What is missing:

4) How to specifically address this problem
5) How to determine who is a problem, accurately
6) Determine a way to protect those citizens who are not a problem.



Unfortunately the last 3 are the big ones, most difficult to settle.



TWP,


I thought of making kkelly Court Catamite. But I didn't know if he would fit in the costume.

186. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237903 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 11:45 am

Qomak,

Because I am talking about the practical impossibility of keeping recent with all the scientific progress without having a formal education and a full time dedication.

187. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237879 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 11:23 am

TWP:



Court is as follows:


King of everything: Me
Chief advisor: Fanusi
Court Jester: Irate Atheist

188. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237866 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 10:56 am

TWP,





Slow day? WTF? I was elected president of threads on Islam (elected.... appointed) because I have attained the highest degree, which according to Qomak gives me the power to dispense with you underlings as I see fit.

I am very pleased with this, it is a monumental decision, a landmark in online forums.


I am going to get my crown.

189. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237856 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 10:13 am

SPS,






Excuse me, but who is an expert in whether Shariah is good or not? I am curious, can I attain a PhD in "The desireability of Shariah"? If so, which university would offer it?

So there are certain interpretations of Shariah (the orthodox one for instance) which are clearly unpleasant, and we must decide whether or not we want that to spread in Britain (or anywhere). There is no expertise in the matter, it is a value judgement on a system well outlined by its proponents.

190. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237841 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 9:01 am

Coco,





You are right, in a democracy it is important for amateurs to discuss the issues, since an amateur has the same voting power as an expert.


And besides since I have a degree in Islamic Studies, I suppose I am an "expert", and I have the "right" to comment anyway. And as the sole degree holder, I guess I am kind of like "president" of threads on Islam. This being the case, I am issuing an edict which permits everyone to go back to discussing things freely and ignore Qomak.

Go my children.... fly fly.

191. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237826 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 8:21 am

Qomak,







In case you missed my C.V. I have a degree in Islamic Studies.


And yes I am confident in what I have to say. And not only that, I am confident in vouching for the views of many "Amateurs" here. Fanusi, although he is, according to you, unlettered in the Islamic sciences, is quite astute in his observations and has accurately outlined the precise nature of Islam the religion, and its place in history.

Also I would say Steve has forwarded some good thoughts on the topic. Quetz as well. True they don't understand the influences of Zoroastrian duality on Mu'atizila philosophy, but that doesn't mean they are wrong about what they say about the danger of Islam.

192. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237821 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 8:16 am

Qomak,






Why is Galileo a bad example? Science was not that advanced, and he helped advance it using his own mind. A perfect example.


And I must politely ask, what the fuck is your point? Fanusi shouldn't comment on Islam, immigration, race? Should Quetz scurry off and hide because he doesn't have a degree in demographics? Is there some point to your arrogant ramblings, or is it the usual self congratulatory nonsense from yet another mental masturbator?

So please, in case we have missed it in our haste to think for ourselves, restate what it is exactly that you are trying to tell us about this thread and this topic.


Kthxbai.

193. A flea we missed?

Comment #237769 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 6:11 am

Remeber it is just a theory, like evolution.





SG,



Actually do a google search; "Bible" and "Flat Earth". The OT isn't as shy as the NT in saying so. The earth is flat, and angels stand at the corners of the earth and direct the wind. Most of the wind directed these days comes from D. Robertson, and is quite malodorous.

194. A flea we missed?

Comment #237761 by al-rawandi on August 27, 2008 at 5:48 am

The Bible says the earth is flat, plain and simple.




As it turns out, scientists are starting to lean toward the round earth theory.

195. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237445 by al-rawandi on August 26, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Nairb, Quetz,





Renouncing Shariah would be tantamount to apostasy. I will check to the Umdat al-Salik later for more specific details, but in essence it is rejecting the revealed law for human law, and this is both impeachable on account of its quality as Mushrik (associating partners with Allah) and potentially as renunciation of the Prophet Muhammad.

Now what can be said of Muslims, and Fanusi may tend to disagree, is that some will renounce the notion of Shariah being practical NOW. For instance some will say it is temporally relative, making it a 7th Century legal device, and nothing more. Others will say certain impossible social conditions must be met first (e.g. end to poverty). These are intellectual positions, but what they really are is a bit of humanism creeping in. Muslims like this do not want the bararity of Shariah, but do not want to renounce their faith. They like the nice bits they feel Islam engenders, and want to illuminate these in their own lives. These are the same ones that find intellectual acrobatics the best means to rationalize the hijab as feminist liberation (and yes they do this).

There was an Egyptian Muslim thinker who once enjoined believers to establish the Shariah (Islamic State) in their hearts. Meaning an internalization of the Shariah.

These types don't bother me. Most of Muslim friends fall in here, and I wouldn't call them "Shariah suppoters" in the sense Fanusi uses, but I would say they refuse to deny its legitimacy because it would be tantamount to rejection of their faith. Asking people to reject their faith in order to become citizens is both immoral and impractical.



Fanusi,


You are forgetting Taqiyya, groups such as the harbis would quickly lie, not only about suport for Shariah, but about being Muslim. They would claim to be Jews, Agnostics, Atheists, Zoroastrians, or Baha'is. But would operate covertly, in highly independent cells, for the destruction of Infidel society and the establishment of their Shariah state.

My point: Simply asking might not be enough.

196. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237425 by al-rawandi on August 26, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Fanusi,





Feminists will have nothing to say, as feminism seems tied to liberalism, which is in turned tied to the multi-culti B.S.


But this is a road we have already been down.

197. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237405 by al-rawandi on August 26, 2008 at 12:35 pm

kkelly,

Not according to the Minnesota Adoption Study. And I didn't know people on this site use "whiteness" as a euphemism for superior test taking abilities.

198. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237359 by al-rawandi on August 26, 2008 at 11:42 am

Vaal,







That makes my 84 seem pretty bad huh?

199. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237345 by al-rawandi on August 26, 2008 at 11:11 am

TWP,

[ahem] Taking the bait. Eubonics. Perhaps IQ tests should also include eubonics.

200. Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque

Comment #237317 by al-rawandi on August 26, 2008 at 10:49 am

J Mac,



I am curious then, if these tests are biased how come blacks are starting to score better on the tests? Are they becoming more white :-)? As for the vocabulary, is there some language other than English that is a first language in African American communities?

I think you should review what exactly is on the test and then see if these can be biased. Also see where people score different (and there are small gender differences there as well).


Smith,


Perhaps.



J Mac Again:


I don't think IQ tests are a good way of measuring intelligence at all, so I would discard the whole thing. At best they can be used to judge overall trends in certain kinds of intelligence. I have ADD and can't pay attention long enough to take a long test, doesn't mean I am stupid.


Bonzai,


Good question, I would develop a test where I got 100% and called all you people idiots for getting 80%. That is sort of like running the Olympics and putting channel surfing in an taking home the Gold.



Quetz,


Some people who don't do well criticize the test because they didn't do well, not because the test is in fact an inaccurate measurement. A standardized test can never determine someone's total intellectual value.




Bonzai again:




No, the just adapted differently to a new environment. The chance for anemia was no longer evolutionarily justified because there was no malaria to defend against.

That is my take.


Same race... but I can't even define a race properly.