151. The atheist delusion

Comment #144374 by MelM on March 15, 2008 at 8:04 pm

Over on the Guardian site, the piece is introduced thus:

Godless evangelicals
The irony is that, in its fanaticism and intolerance, atheism's militant tendency apes the worst aspects of religious fundamentalism

Guess who has the "militant tendency"?

With God on Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in America's Military (Paperback)
by Michael L. Weinstein (Author), Davin Seay (Author), Joseph C. Wilson (Foreword)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312374836/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

I've not read this book yet but I know there's a lot of attempts to grab the U.S. military for Jesus and it's very worrisome.

152. The atheist delusion

Comment #144349 by MelM on March 15, 2008 at 5:15 pm

I just found an interesting web site: Biblical Errancy by Dennis McKinsey
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html

while checking out this book: Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist by Dan Barker
http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Faith-Preacher-Atheist/dp/187773313X/ref=pd_sim_b_title_11

while checking out some links on the psychopathology of religion

while making a list of the approaches to attacking religion and unreason that might be effective now that so many fleas have responded to the atheist books. I think we need to evolve.

153. The atheist delusion

Comment #144035 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 11:02 pm

Why do I hate them so much? Well, I'll submit this evidence from a recent PZ post. In my first comment above, I turned the statement around so as to read it from my perspective.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/what_hath_the_god_of_biscuits.php

Night night.

154. The atheist delusion

Comment #144031 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 10:47 pm

These evil atheists:

Zealous atheism renews some of the worst features of Christianity and Islam. Just as much as these religions, it is a project of universal conversion.

Give me a break! Universal conversion is a normal and, basically, rational desire of a philosophy and is not one of the worst features of these religions. It isn't Dawkins that's running Jesus camps, trying to replace 2500 years of natural science with theistic drivel, or training jihadis. If one doesn't accept Dawkins' theories, there will be no executions, or eternal fire; he isn't advocating shooting "unbelievers." Really, I don't see how Hitler and Stalin could have come to power without the preceding religious "virtues" of unreason and sacrifice.

I didn't see a way to post a response to this Gaurdian article.

155. The atheist delusion

Comment #144018 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 10:11 pm

How about this little bit of treason to humanity:

Both science and religion are systems of symbols that serve human needs - in the case of science, for prediction and control.
Religions have served many purposes, but at bottom they answer to a need for meaning that is met by myth rather than explanation.

"myth"? Living in reality according to a corrupt system of falsehoods brought ignorance, death, poverty, tyranny, and descruction--as it had to. Reason has brought an enormous improvement in life to those societies that have embraced it and it's responsible for the Bill Of Rights.

I think our attack strategy needs to evolve to meet the response from religion.

156. The atheist delusion

Comment #144014 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 9:46 pm

Faith is the greatest enemy reason has. Religion creates a milieu of unreason that accomodated the hatred for reason by Hitler and the suppression of it by Stalin. Neither of these regimes had any problem fitting the sacrifice of the individual to the state into their national religious backgrounds. It is irrationality across the board that is my enemy. Astrology is a minor problem; alien abduction stories, and crop circles may come and go but the vice of faith is the most persistent danger to reason, science, Western Civilization, and freedom. I am anti-religion because I'm pro-reason, pro-science, and pro-freedom.

157. Beauty ad banned after Christian outcry

Comment #143863 by MelM on March 14, 2008 at 2:14 pm

-- A woman praying is certainly not erotic.

-- Anyone should be able to know whether an action is or is not against the law before taking the action. Having "offensive" in a law violates that principle.

-- 23 is not "widespread".

-- Business should have freedom of speech as well as anyone. Provable fraud is, of course, a form of theft and should be a crime.

-- Any freedom of speech restrictions involving "offending religion" should be protested vigorously; surely, UK atheists can send in more than 23 e-mail complaints about this decision.

158. Two More Fleas

Comment #143147 by MelM on March 13, 2008 at 2:21 pm

black wolf,

Thanks for finding the deconversion story.

Among others approaches, deconversion research could provide a base for atheist efforts. So, I think it's a very important idea to look carefully at these stories to discover the explanations for the deconversions. In essentials, the stories will fall into some finite group of types--like everything else.

Anyway, here's the "coming out video" of a pleasant young woman who began because her father was a Baptist and her mother was a Catholic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naLQjFNQVAM

159. Two More Fleas

Comment #142546 by MelM on March 12, 2008 at 5:25 pm

Yet another flea! "The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism
by Timothy Keller"
Feb 14, 2008

http://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-Belief-Age-Skepticism/dp/0525950494/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205366544&sr=1-1

To my great surprise and disappointment, this guy was able to also fill Wheeler auditorium in Berkeley on the Tuesday evening before Dawkins was there.

This guy seems to be a big deal. From the book site: http://thereasonforgod.com/author.php

The Influentials Issue of New York Magazine featured Dr. Keller as "the most successful Christian evangelist in the city by recognizing that young professionals and artists are 'disproportionately influential' in creating the country's culture and that you have to meet this coveted demographic on its own terms."

I note that this book has been on the NYT bestseller list for two weeks at number 11.

160. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #141616 by MelM on March 10, 2008 at 10:24 pm

OT

Unbelievable--"...if the student answered 6,000 years based on his or her religious belief, the school would have to credit it as correct."

http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html

Bill promotes school religion at expense of education

Dave McNeely
Special to The Sun

EDMOND -- The Oklahoma House of Representatives Education Committee has just approved House Bill 2211
...

If a student's religious beliefs were in conflict with scientific theory, and the student chose to express those beliefs rather than explain the theory in response to an exam question, the student's incorrect response would be deemed satisfactory, according to this bill.

The school would be required to reward the student with a good grade, or be considered in violation of the law. Even simple, factual information such as the age of the earth (4.65 billion years) would be subject to the student's belief, and if the student answered 6,000 years based on his or her religious belief, the school would have to credit it as correct.

161. Seven new deadly sins: are you guilty?

Comment #141555 by MelM on March 10, 2008 at 3:45 pm

Dropped off in the TimesOnline comments although not shown yet:

I'm disappointed. I had hoped to see reason elevated to a virtue and faith demoted to a sin. However, running any misery cult worth its salt requires faith; so, I suppose my hope was misplaced.

162. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #141010 by MelM on March 9, 2008 at 3:51 pm

Comment #140989 by Mental Slavery ,

All I've seen is this link posted by Teratornis (#138076). It's about filming the two California events. Note that one of them is Richard's TGD presentation at Berkeley and the Stanford event is:

AURORA FORUM: AGAINST IGNORANCE: SCIENCE EDUCATION IN THE 21ST CENTURY: A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD DAWKINS AND LAWRENCE KRAUSS

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37899

For the specific ASU presentation you saw, contacting the sponsoring organization might get you an answer about filming.

163. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #140850 by MelM on March 8, 2008 at 9:52 pm

Dawkins at Berkeley was well worth the line and the time: lots of fun and plenty of excuses to applaud. There was also a standing ovation for Richard that was quite pleasing. After, I checked with some people helping with the event; they said "hundreds" were turned away.

A little bunch of us in line to get in struck up a conversation. There was a Catholic agnostic scientist and his family. His wife didn't know what ID was so a high school girl in the bunch started to explain. So, it's great that others besides atheists showed up although there were lots of Dawkins fans--as indicated when he asked for a show of hands of those who had visited his web site.

I bought the "Ancestor's Tale" but the line for Richard to sign books was already way longer than I had the stamina for; so I headed for a burger and home. Anyway, I hadn't purchased the book to get the signature, so I didn't mind leaving without one.

Good job Richard.

164. Out of the Blue

Comment #140770 by MelM on March 8, 2008 at 2:51 pm

OT

PZ has a post about "Expelled" being shown to Florida legislators.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/its_a_propaganda_film.php
This is really outrageous.

Florida Citizens for Science is on the case today also; one commenter has said that he was told by the director of the Challenger Center that anyone not showing porn can rent facilities; the Center can't discriminate and it was "this legislator" who rented the facility. http://www.flascience.org/wp/?p=497#comments

I hate religion a little more every day!!

165. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #140747 by MelM on March 8, 2008 at 1:58 pm

OT but nice.

Panda's Thumb has a post about some science web sites an UCSD (University of California, San Diego). There's a new lecture series "Evolution Matters" and plenty of videos on 3 listed web sites: "Grey Matters", "Science Matters", and "Atoms to Xrays".

The Panda's Thumb post: http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/03/evolution-matte.html#more

166. When blasphemy bit the dust

Comment #140547 by MelM on March 7, 2008 at 7:47 pm

Elizabeth Anderson in the essay "If God Is Dead, Is Everything Permitted?" contained in Hitchens' "The Portable Atheist" documents the New Testament destructiveness and murder to come when Jesus returns. Looks to me like the same old god of the Old Testament.

167. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #139987 by MelM on March 6, 2008 at 10:43 pm

Thanks for the updates about Dawkins' ASU appearance. Nice crowd!

After seeing the nutter theologian Tim Keller (Tue. night Mar 4) fill Wheeler auditorium on the U.C. Berkeley campus (not all were students though), I'm really hoping that Dawkins can also fill it. I suppose the best outcome would be to fill Wheeler with the same people who saw Keller, thinking that--like debates--it's your opponent's supporters that you really want to talk to and not your own. If there's a super turnout, I'm not sure whether the talk would be broadcast to people in front of the building; but, it's a pleasant area and the weather forecast for Sat. evening looks good. I can hope.

168. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #139972 by MelM on March 6, 2008 at 9:25 pm

Comment #139962 by Runlinds,

Big crowd?

169. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #139883 by MelM on March 6, 2008 at 3:52 pm

So now, the apologists are starting to claim that relgion played a major role in the enlightnment.

Yes, the theists are trying to take credit for the enlightenment and what followed. This seems identical to the "Christian Nation" fraud which has ended up in House Resolution 888 and so ably debunked by Chris Rodda in her book "Liars For Jesus" ( http://www.liarsforjesus.com/ )and in her writing for "Talk To Action".

Dark Age deniers
We now are seeing some "Dark Age deniers" around. This essay is the first I've seen on the topic and goes to the roots of the errors.

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-winter/tragedy-of-theology.asp

The Tragedy of Theology: How Religion Caused and Extended the Dark Ages
A Critique of Rodney Stark's The Victory of Reason by Andrew Bernstein

The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success, by Rodney Stark. New York: Random House, 2005. 304 pp. $25.95 (cloth), $15.95 (paperback).

In recent decades, medieval scholars have persistently advanced the thesis that the Dark and Middle Ages were not actually dark--that the 1,000-year period stretching from the fall of Rome (roughly 500 AD) to the Renaissance (roughly 1500) was an era of significant intellectual and cultural advance. This trend has culminated in the claims of Rodney Stark's The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success (and similar claims presented in Thomas Woods's How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization). That such a theory would be welcomed by the religious right is not surprising. However, what might surprise some--and what is certainly ominous--is that such major organs of the liberal press as The New York Times and The Chronicle of Higher Education (the leading publication for university professors and administrators) have treated Stark's book with significant respect. This essay will demonstrate that such respect is entirely undeserved

Religion the cancer
Religion has been the cancer on Western Civilization--not its foundation as some would have us believe (including one of the puke "Bible Literacy" programs which are now actually penetrating the wall-of-separation in the U.S.). The more I learn, the more outraged I become; 2500 years from the Greek scientist Thales until now and we're still fighting the barking mad bastards.

170. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #139851 by MelM on March 6, 2008 at 2:55 pm

128. Comment #139738 by kevin_2050,

Yes, Berkeley needs Dawkins. I was shocked at the turnout on March 4 at Wheeler for the nutter Tim Keller although he seems to be big in religious circles. Anyway, See my comment:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2331,Richard-Dawkins-US-Tour-begins-this-week,RichardDawkinsnet,page2#138837

Oh, I received my A lapel pins today. I've never worn anything of the sort but it felt great to put one on my jacket before heading out for a hotdog.

Death
For myself, I think life needs the organs of life such as heart, lungs, stomach, muscle, and all the stuff doctors know about. As for "spirits", all I can think of as a general definition is some form of consciousness without--or at least not needing--a body. But, this means consciousness without organs of consciousness: like eyes, nose, and a brain. Consciousness is an attribute of some living things and not a self-subsistent "spirit" that enters a body and runs the organs of life.

171. How to abandon your God

Comment #139446 by MelM on March 5, 2008 at 9:08 pm

A god that's nothing specific is undefinable and nothing at all. End of reason thus end of debate.

172. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #139431 by MelM on March 5, 2008 at 8:09 pm

I didn't notice 'till today that not all Richards talks are the same. The talk at Stanford looks like a must-see video.

http://www.richarddawkins.net/calendar

Against Ignorance: Science Education in the 21st Century with Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins
at Aurora Forum at Stanford University

173. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #139315 by MelM on March 5, 2008 at 2:58 pm

OT

Hotdog!! http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/3/5/135012/2476/Front_Page/Religious_Right_Loses_a_Big_One_in_Texas

Religious Right Loses a Big One in Texas

174. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #139304 by MelM on March 5, 2008 at 2:40 pm

What's wrong with religion? IT'S FALSE. This is its first and foundational problem.

Any tidbit in religion that's true is true in reality and not because it's in some holy book or because some god said so. Trying to live against the facts guarantees that one is living incorrectly. This is true even of all the "feel good" drivel put forward for believing in nonsense. For example, I've been through grief without a religious solution and I came out ok.


Ethics?
Well, I dont't see anything good about sacrificing the morally perfect (Jesus in the christian view) for the sake of the morally defective.

I don't see anything good about an ethics that places the goal of ethical action beyond the grave.

I don't see anything good about an ethics based on commands of the great father rather than on the requirements of living on Earth.

What are some things religion (the misery cults) is doing TODAY?
-It forbids people to seek doctor assisted death.
-It forbids some stem cell research.
-It forbids contraception even to stop AIDS.
-It forbids abortion.
-It forbids divorce.
-It opposes science with dogma.
-It teaches unreason--most specifically "faith"
-It teaches absurdities: Genesis, talking snakes, life after death, walking on water, loaves of bread...
-It attempts to undercut confidence in reason.
-It opposes sex outside of marriage.
-It keeps us from figuring out how to live with reality instead of against it.
-It's trying to grab political power; religion can't keep to itself.

175. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #139285 by MelM on March 5, 2008 at 1:51 pm

"... but what about Hitler or Stalin..."

Couldn't Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al. have learned most of what they needed from the morally perfect great leader of the Bible:
.unreason
.fanatical sacrifice
.a chosen people
.thought crimes
.genocide

176. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #138837 by MelM on March 4, 2008 at 8:49 pm

Comment #138080 by aznxscorpion517,
Re: Tim Keller in Berkeley


About 8:15pm.
Disappointing news from Wheeler auditorium in Berkeley. I walked over just before the start time of 7:30pm. (Recall that Dawkins will speak at Wheeler this coming Saturday evening--March 8.)

Wheeler is full
Tim Keller, author of "The Reason For God" is indeed at Wheeler auditorium on the U.C. campus. To my surprise and disappointment, the auditorium is full and people were turned away. There were two lines; one for "visitors" which looked mainly adult and the other was mainly of student age people. I walked past the lines and through the external doors to get a first hand look at the crowd in the auditorium. His book was being sold just outside the auditorium doors.

Crap; there are nutters in the area
It does look like Berkeley is in need of more help from Dawkins than I'd thought although I've really no idea where the people came from. The San Francisco Bay Area is large and has plenty of roads and mass transit (BART).

No "A" pin yet
My regret is that it'll be a few days yet before I receive my "A" pins; I would have loved to wear one this evening.

I'm looking forward to Saturday night; I hope Dawkins sees a packed auditorium.

177. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #138672 by MelM on March 4, 2008 at 5:09 pm

OT (Florida)

Well, they've done it! "Academic freedom" bills have been introduced into both the House and Senate of the state of Florida.

From the Florida Citizens for Science:
http://www.flascience.org/wp/?p=484
There are several more posts about the situation. These are "above" this post.

From Panda's Thumb:
http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/03/antievolution-l.html

178. Church exhumes Padre Pio

Comment #138580 by MelM on March 4, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Psychopathology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathology

179. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #138091 by MelM on March 3, 2008 at 10:37 pm

I see Keller's new book "A Reason For God" claims that it "Uses Presuppostional Apologetics with postmoderns." I don't know about his particular views but, as I've commented before, "presuppositional apologetics" is a really nasty bunch of brain cracking crap that attempts to undercut rationality right at it philosophical root. I'm inclined to believe that it's the main support for the fanaticism we're seeing today; it allows people to "presume" the bible and lock out any disagreement whatever. Down the road, it will work like a polylogic system that leaves only one way to deal with those who don't agree: force. And that makes if quite scary. Religion can't survive without supporting some form of unreason.

180. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #138086 by MelM on March 3, 2008 at 10:07 pm

Comment #138080 by aznxscorpion517,

What a revolting development this is!

Yes, the event was moved to Wheeler. I'll try to walk over and snoop around. If this nutter fills Wheeler, I'll know the country is in a lot more trouble than I'd thought.

181. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #138079 by MelM on March 3, 2008 at 9:35 pm

Put in a good word or two for freedom of speech.

I don't think I'll be able to attend the Berkeley talk, but I may be able to walk over and check out the makeup of the crowd going into Wheeler--a large auditorim. The weather forecast looks good for Saturday.

This isn't Florida or Texas or...
The people of California voted to spend 3 billion on stem cell research and about two weeks ago, some "abstinence only" nutters were caught teaching sex education classes in some S.F. Bay Area schools. Somehow, they contracted to do the work and even administrators didn't know who they were. Finally, they were exposed because some alert mom found out her son wasn't learning what she expected and wanted him to learn. An investigation uncovered the situation. This abstinence only nutter stuff for sex ed is illegal in California. So, if Dawkins runs into any barking mad nutters here, it'll be far fewer than I'd expect elsewhere.

Anyway, I think that talking to young people who are still on the fence or who are just a little bit religious is very very important. Talks at both UC and Stanford is a real win since they are the two big top ranked schools in Northern California and are important nationally.

Oh, pass out some "A" buttons so I won't feel so lonely when I walk around town with my new "A" lapel pin when it comes.

Comment #138068 by ic0n0clast:

I wish prof. Dawkins would come to Colorado :(

Yes, go to Colorado; the state needs a lot of work.

182. Survey shows Non-Religious Outnumber Those of Every Single Faith (But One)

Comment #137987 by MelM on March 3, 2008 at 5:50 pm

59 million hardcore nutters
I saw a number just a few days ago of 225 million adults in the U.S. Using 26.3% for the Evangelical churches group, that works out to 59 million problem nutters which is in the ball park of the estimates I've seen up untill now. They are a very fanatic cult that wants power and I don't think the rest of the populaion is fully aware of how much spin and fraud the country is being bombarded with. They've been very effective at political action and propaganda. I'm afraid though, that by the time the rest of the country figures out what's going on, it'll be too late. Moderates follow along or don't resist radicals; that's how it works. And, the moderates will have bought into enough of the fraud that their hands will be really dirty. Also, the hard nutters are good at hiding their fangs and claws; the Republican convention will look squeaky clean on TV again. I don't think they'll invite John Hagee to speak.

183. Survey shows Non-Religious Outnumber Those of Every Single Faith (But One)

Comment #137960 by MelM on March 3, 2008 at 4:48 pm

Comment #137919 by BicycleRepairMan,

I agree, this article is crap.

Thanks for the Pew link. I'm looking at the numbers now. I added up some percents to make sure that they were relative to the entire adult population rather than to the next higher group.

while 23.9 percent identify themselves as Catholic. The next largest "belief group" is Evangelical Baptist at 10.8 percent. All other denominational groupings show in the single digits or less.

WTF, this 10.8% group isn't even listed in the data table. The Protestants are 51.3% of the population while the Catholics are 23.9%. Indeed, the "Evangelical Churches at 26.3% alone outnumber the Catholics. Anyway, I think it's the evangelicals that are our main problem and not just the Baptists. At 10.3% (per the article) the Evangelical Baptists would be no where near the estimated size of our main problem.

...placing the unaffiliated second only to Roman Catholics in number

What?

Edit: The article seems also to equate the "unaffiliated" group in the report with "non-religious". Since the "unaffiliated" table includes a category of "religious unaffiliated", this is false.

I agree, this article is crap.

184. Survey shows Non-Religious Outnumber Those of Every Single Faith (But One)

Comment #137898 by MelM on March 3, 2008 at 2:52 pm

I've been procrastinating for a month or two about buying some of the Dawkins "A" lapel pins. I've never worn any such label but I'm so outraged at religion that I want to assertively stand out. So, I just now completed the order. What the hell: if I can tolerate the continuous disgorge of intellectual raw sewage coming from religion, they can learn to tolerate my "A" pins.

I don't think Pew is going to help us in Florida (it isn't over yet), Texas, with HR 888, or plenty of other issues; so, it's no time to relax.

185. Berlin gallery in Islam art row

Comment #136655 by MelM on March 1, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Government leaders should not, in their role as officials, state opinions about any work of art. However, when freedom of artistic speech is under threat from coercion, then I think they must strongly condemn any use of force or threat of force and make it clear that freedom of speech will be upheld. They should not, while supporting freedom of speech, include any opinions about the content of the speech or work of art. The quality or offensiveness of the art must not be made an issue thus giving hope to the attackers and diverting attention from the danger to freedom of speech; when someone puts violence on the table, discussion of content should end.

I also think that when a country's citizens are facing coercion against their freedom of speech, government leaders must not remian silent.

186. Berlin gallery in Islam art row

Comment #136606 by MelM on March 1, 2008 at 1:42 pm

I missed this news item of Feb 16.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7248963.stm

Danish MPs refuse cartoon apology

"We are not the ones to apologise," said Villy Soevndal, the leader of Denmark's Socialist People's Party.

"If anyone needs to apologise for freedom of speech, human rights, imprisonments, executions and lack of democracy, it is the Iranians."

187. US Treaty with Tripoli

Comment #135337 by MelM on February 28, 2008 at 9:00 pm

It would be accurate to say that the U.S. is demographically a Christian nation; but, so long as the wall-of-separation holds, it certainly is not politically a Christian nation. The dominionist movement does not now have but is seeking dominating political power. Make no mistake, this is a fanatical religious cult that wants power. I do still believe that, if and when the vast majority of the American people figure out what's going on, they will reject the power grab.

The "Christian Nation" propaganda (as in HR 888), with its fake history, is trying to convince people that the founders really did want theocratic policies. I'll spare you all another link to "Liars For Jesus"; suffice it to say that, with abundant models, the U.S. founders could have built any sort of theocracy they wanted--but they didn't.

Others with more knowledge of history than I might be able to confirm that the U.S. was, when founded, the least theocratic country in the world and perhaps in world history. (Now that I think of it, if true, this would be a fantastic short-form rebuttal to the "Christian Nation" spin.)

188. Are they running for President or Pastor-in-Chief?

Comment #135125 by MelM on February 28, 2008 at 2:54 pm

About fake American history: "Liars For Jesus" http://www.liarsforjesus.com/

Page-down to see a list of her articles debunking the "Christian Nation" bull in House Resolution 888.

189. Evolving Mistakes

Comment #134257 by MelM on February 27, 2008 at 1:31 pm

A morale builder about viruses
I'm signed up for an email from the site "Talk Reason" which sends updates about new articles. Some I understand more than others and this is one of the "others"; however, I thought I'd pass it along since it has something for everyone--it really does.

From the email:
How a 'just so' story turns into just 'so?'-- HIV and the failures of Intelligent Design
By SA Smith

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/just-so-story.cfm

Abigail Smith, the graduate student conducting research with HIV viruses who recently forced Michael Behe to grudgingly admit error in his book "Edge of Evolution" (to our knowledge it was the first ever occurrence of a leading advocate of intelligent design admitting an error) tells in this post the exciting story of a new development in virusology. This is a vivid example of the fertility of the genuine science being so much in contrast with the abject futility of intelligent design "theory." It also is another devastating hit upon Behe's erroneous position as evinced in his latest book so highly praised by the Discovery Institute's pseudo-scientists.
published: Feb 27, 2008

Smith's blog: http://endogenousretrovirus.blogspot.com/

Practical applications!!! This really caught my attention:

In six months, evolutions 'just so story' led to new drug targets for new HIV/AIDS therapies, and a brand new avenue of research for immunologists and virologists all over the world (tetherins role in influenza, ebola, EBV, herpes, whoo!!!!.

The practical applications of evolution are worth stressing very heavily.
Religion has very often fought new discoveries but people have finally accepted them by giving the benefits (like life) priority over the holy men's dogma. That's the way it works. I have doubts about knocking the hard core nutters lose from their dogma, but the vast number of people sitting on the fence could be swayed by repeatedly informing them about applications. And, understanding about scientific "theory" is not required. I'm not suggesting giving up the epistemological battle; I'm suggesting adding practical applications and giving them priority of emphasis.

190. Church is paying a high price for its celibacy rule

Comment #133772 by MelM on February 26, 2008 at 6:21 pm

MPhil,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I read the "resonance" comments on his web site; quite impressive! And, your "It's all there" view upholds the "meticulous, irrefutable" claim.

Maybe the projected 10 volumes look like too much of a project for a publisher; for certain, it seems like a sure way to lose a pile of money. However, I would think there's an interest. I just bought a 2006 English translation (the first) of "The Inquisitor's Guide" by Bernard Gui (@1260-1331) and there's a new academic translation of "Malleus Maleficarum"--items not destined for the bestseller lists. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521859778/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance
So, maybe there's hope, although an online translation financed by a patron(s) may be the only way an English version is feasible. Wikipedia says: "The German industrialist Herbert Steffen has continued to support Deschner's work." Maybe he'll finance a translation at some point thus getting more availability for his investment in the writing itself.

I see that vol 8 was published in 2004. So, given his usual 2-3 year interval, vol 9 is already due. If he has the will and the health to do it, we still might see vol 10. Even so, 10 volumes is too much for a work aimed at the general reader. Perhaps a scholar will someday write such a book based on Deschner's work.

191. Church is paying a high price for its celibacy rule

Comment #133735 by MelM on February 26, 2008 at 4:04 pm

MPhil,

Thanks for the tip. I found Deschner (he'll be 84 in May) on Wikipedia
and a video of Dawkins accepting the Deschner prize Oct 12 2007:
http://atheistmedia.blogspot.com/2007/10/richard-dawkins-receives-deschner-prize.html

I don't know what to make of all this yet; I'd never heard of the man but I see about 45 books listed including 8 volumes of "Christianity's Criminal History". A commenter on "Raving Atheist Forum mentions a projected 10 volumes:
http://ravingatheists.com/forum/showthread.php?s=0de26beed1fe87f17d9b63127bdf7c0f&p=462165#post462165

The commenter also gives a link to some English excerpts from vol 7:
http://www.deschner.info/index.htm?/en/work/46/excerpt.htm
and an English synopsis of vol 7:
http://www.deschner.info/index.htm?/en/work/46/synopsis.htm

The synopsis says (at the end):

Deschner's meticulous, irrefutable presentation of evidence from eye witnesses who were previously silenced or distorted reveals the very Christian Middle Ages as the high water mark of ruthless power politics involving both secular thrones and the Holy See.

Is this work documented in such a way that researchers could check his data? "Meticulous, irrefutable" is just what we need. Wikipedia states that none of Deschner's books have been translated into English; do you have any idea why not?

192. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #133213 by MelM on February 25, 2008 at 9:45 pm

To anyone in Pakistan, Brazil, China, Iran, Morocco, Myanmar, Syria and Thailand whose government has blocked access to YouTube in the last few years: you should be outraged. If you're not, I don't understand how you can stand to live like that.

Hitchens on islam and freedom of speech Toronto(part 3): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3OTS5gSO0E

Hitchens whole Toronto speech: http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2007/03/free_speech_6.html

I wonder if this blog is tolerated in those countries?

193. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #132998 by MelM on February 25, 2008 at 1:55 pm

This is "Presuppositional apologetics". I've seen this stuff before but not studied it further than Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presuppositional_apologetics

However, recently, I've started looking for the cause of the fanaticism we're seeing now among what are generally practical Americans.

Presuppositional apologetics comes up over and over agian in debates and is ignored by atheists (as I recall) all of the time; I think this is an error.

From Wikipedia: The key feature of this school is that it maintains the Christian apologist must assume the truth of the supernatural revelation contained in the Bible (that is, the Christian worldview), both prior to the apologetic exercise and as the result of it. Apart from such "presuppositions" (or, prerequisite requirements), it is argued, one could not make sense of any human experience, and there could be no apologetics, because there can be no set of neutral assumptions from which to reason with a non-Christian.[3] In other words, presuppositionalists claim that a Christian cannot consistently declare his belief in the necessary existence of the God of the Bible and simultaneously argue on the basis of a different set of assumptions in which God may or may not exist, and Biblical revelation may or may not be true.

...
For example, presuppositionalists will point out that a secular scientific worldview is built on the core presupposition that only what is incorrigible, that which can be observed and that which can be immediately inferred from what is observed, can be known with certainty. However, that core presupposition is not incorrigible, cannot be observed, nor can it be immediately inferred from that which is observable. Therefore, it involves large circularity -- internal incoherence.[27]
...
Clarkians, on the other hand, believe that all philosophical systems start with axioms, which by definition are not capable of proof. Clarkians choose the propositions of Scripture as their axioms. Circular reasoning (of the fallacious sort) involves trying to prove premises from their conclusions, while axioms are not to be proved at all. Clarkians claim to deduce theorems from the axioms of Scripture

Something is the primary driver of the fanaticism we're seeing now and I really don't believe it's just hicks like the guy in Florida with the oranges. From what little I've seen, "presuppositional apologetics" allows one to make a flying leap into "belief" and protect it from thinking coming from outside the belief.

This is an incredible hack but I think it's important. For some holy men, I believe they won't hear a word we say so long as this philosophical base is intact.

194. Moral thinking

Comment #131620 by MelM on February 22, 2008 at 6:03 pm

Trolleyology isn't real.
The fact that the experimental subject is involved in a non-real situation might just have something to do with a lack of emotional involvment. Again, given a situation where there are no facts on which to base a rational decision, I'm also not surprised that reason wasn't invoked in the process. Maybe someday, nanotechnology will provide a way to instrument the brain for long periods of time during real life thus giving some real numbers to work with.

What circumstances?

David Sloan Wilson...reckons the actual moral sense an individual acquires is not arbitrary, as a language is, but is functionally adapted to circumstances. He and his colleague Ingrid Storm looked at liberals and conservatives (in the American senses of the words). Each group has a package of values it sees as moral, while viewing many of the beliefs of the other side as immoral.

There's nothing in the article about any attempt by the researchers to relate the moral views of the teenagers to their circumstances. WTF, "Dr Wilson suspects" isn't a scientific result. Speculation is fine; but it still needs to be based on at least a few facts and non were given.

"Causative ideas" premise is rejected.
Nor do we see anything about looking at the two religious sects to see what views were taught that had an impact on the teenagers morality. For example, for believers, faith is a virtue (moral) while I regard it as a vice (immoral). These researchers seem to have accepted the premise that moral views are caused by circumstances--or something--and therefore, that the moral teachings of philosphies or religions are not primary. On the face of it, for example, it looks like the Muslim view that cartooning Mo is immoral comes directly from religion as does the "virtue" of faith. Indeed, the metaphysics of religion (god and heaven) seems to have a huge impact on morality. Perhaps, if kids accept a positive (moral) view of independent thought, they will, in fact, be less conformist?

Descriptive only.
I don't see anything in the article about an attempt to discover which moral views are true and which are false and why; nor do I see a discussion of whether or not such a thing is possible. A philosopher might look for facts that provide a ground for the nature and need for morality and then provide a content (the particular values and virtues) thus providing a prescriptive science. (A philosopher might also decide that there are no rational grounds for morality and dump the whole thing--as some have done.) The biologists are looking for a descriptive science exclusively and thus will have little or no impact on the culture wars still rife in humanity except to allow them to continue--a conservative impact. Meanwhile, the moralities of the religious fanatics are gaining ground again.

Morality is only social?
Again we see the premise that morality deals exclusively with our relations with other people. No virtue would be needed if one were stuck alone on a deserted island? And surely, the person performing the thinking needed to throw off the delusions of faith is acting morally. Really, for those who view reason as a virtue, the entire social-only view of morality is overthrown.

Why is "sacrafice" moral?
From the left and the middle and the right, we hear a hundred times a day about the virtue of sacrafice. Seems like a cult as bad as religion--come to think of it, isn't religion where the virtue of "sacrafice" comes from? In the U.S. anyway, we are supposed to have the right to pursue our own happiness and that's what almost all people spend almost all of their time doing. The self-help gurus and books will applaud the values and virtues needed to achieve our goals and be happy but the politicians, moral experts, and 11pm news anchors will have none of it. It escapes me why giving away a dollar is of great moral significance but making a dollar isn't.


http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_teachings_of_jesus/on_giving/mt05_41.html

195. Whale Evolution

Comment #130955 by MelM on February 21, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Don't forget to watch the video of a creationist on PZ's post mentioned above. It turns out that Satan is behind evolution. I had no idea...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/02/two_tales_of_whale_evolution.php

PZ: This is what we have to deal with: morons who think their caricatures are evidence, and this bozo is probably voting for school board members based on how closely they approximate his level of idiocy.

196. State Approves Evolution As 'Scientific Theory'

Comment #130511 by MelM on February 20, 2008 at 6:31 pm

Comment #130501 by Imperion,

Thanks for your answer.

Oh yes, I'm aware that the wall-of-separation is a key problem for the evangelicals. The wall is mostly intact but it has certainly been breached although I wasn't aware of Florida taxes going to faith-based private schools.

I was hoping for better news than "hang in there" but facts are facts so I'll put the Florida Citizens for Science blog in my bookmarks and follow the developments; what happens in Florida is, in my view, very important.

197. State Approves Evolution As 'Scientific Theory'

Comment #130465 by MelM on February 20, 2008 at 3:24 pm

Comment #130366 by epeeist,
Funny story.

Comment #130083 by Imperion,
First off, congratulations. I think this is a big win for Florida and for science in the U.S.

Thanks for the clarification of the 4-3 vote; I was surprised by it and I'm very glad to see that only Donna Callaway was really against the new standards.

I looked at the new standards yesterday. With the material about science and "theory", it looks like a Florida science teacher can do his/her job. The nutters have gotten some propaganda handles into the document ("theory") and I'm sure they will use them; however, the document itself contains a counter by way of the explanations of "theory" (Comment #130066 by Geoff). People writing rebuttals to creationist misuse of "theory" can quote the standard. So, in a way, the standard contains it's own protection.

I posted a comment yesterday by Stacy S. from the "Panda's Thumb" blog. It concerns an attempt to get the Florida legislature to demand "academic freedom".
http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/02/florida-the-sta.html#comment-143557

Do you think this Kendall person and her coalition have any chance of getting "...and teachers should be permitted to engage students in a critical analysis of that evidence." added to the standards by the legislature?

198. Bart Ehrman, Questioning Religion on Why We Suffer

Comment #129996 by MelM on February 19, 2008 at 9:26 pm

Comment #129978 by salon_1928,

Good story about your evangelical friend. I think this is a big issue and moves us toward understanding why Popes are needed in religion.

When we look at our situation, we fundamentally have no one but ourselves to deal with what's true and false. We can hunt for experts but it's still we who have to decide somehow who the expert is. Really, we are cognitively alone. That doesn't mean we can't learn from others but it's still our own mind that has to study and judge. Religion seeks an absolutely reliable source of knowledge external to our own minds. Your friend seems to be looking for someone else to make up for the mind he's abandoned. The bible also is a way of trying to escape the responsibility of thought. Your friend appears literally afraid to think.

199. Bart Ehrman, Questioning Religion on Why We Suffer

Comment #129972 by MelM on February 19, 2008 at 8:36 pm

If there is a god, then why is this allowed?
Witches in Ghana!! You can hardly believe this video.

http://cbs5.com/seenon/Ghana.witch.villages.2.656996.html

200. State Approves Evolution As 'Scientific Theory'

Comment #129935 by MelM on February 19, 2008 at 7:26 pm

Looks like it's not over yet. There's going to be an attempt to get the legislature into the act to get "academic freedom" included.

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/02/florida-the-sta.html#comment-143557

What many may not known is that "scientific theory" was inserted into the standard in a number of places including the "scientific theory" of cells and the "scientific theory" of the earth's evolution. However, there is plenty of material covering the nature of laws and theories. So, while the fundies have stuck some propaganda handles into the standard, there's a remedy for the teachers included right in the standard itself.