151. Fleabytes

Comment #142829 by scottishgeologist on March 13, 2008 at 6:06 am

Clod

Redemption.exe ?!! Hah! Might just add it... Mind you, I think it probably needs damnation.dll and possibly selfrighteousbastard.sys ... Shit , last thing you want on the way to paradise is a 404...

:-)))))
SG

152. Fleabytes

Comment #142819 by scottishgeologist on March 13, 2008 at 5:57 am

43 to go....

Wonder if it 'll be like this in Dec 2012?

:-))

SG

153. Two More Fleas

Comment #142816 by scottishgeologist on March 13, 2008 at 5:56 am

Clearthinker:

"Because the one sided, unbalanced and totally biased presentation of this becomes really wearisome. If this really was a 'clear thinking oasis' rather than a fan club or propaganda website then it would avoid the simplistic - every book against RD is a flea, whereas none of those in support are"

OK,lets have it in words of one syllable shall we? We are after all dealing witha PhD candidate here (stop laughing you lot....)

Right. These books are referred to as "flea" books because they are clearly parasitic on the back of TGD. The titles frequently contain the name "dawkins" or "delusion" or "deluded " or whatever

Had TGD never been written, these books would have no justification whatsoever. They are parasites plain and simple.

Just like religion which is little more than a cancer on the face of the Pale Blue Dot

But, hey, clearthinker. Heres a challenge. Instead of wrtiting a REACTIVE book on the back of RD's success, how about writing a differentone. Go on, a book telling the world about the joys of calvinism in the 21st century - Give it a title like "5 points for pomos" or something like that. Make no mention of Dawkins, Harris or anyone else - just explain the plain unalloyed joy that is calvinism. Delight your readers with the full-orbed glories of eternal damnation as opposed to being elect.

You know the stuff, its written in the Westminster Confession. Go on, bring it right up to date, make it "k3wl" and hip, but remember NO words like "dawkins" or "delusion" in the title

Wonder how well it would sell......

:-))
SG

154. Two More Fleas

Comment #142506 by scottishgeologist on March 12, 2008 at 3:16 pm

How many of these books have been churned out now?

This merely shows that RD rattled their cages big time with TGD

They must feel really, really threatened and insecure

Almost , almost feel sorry for them....]

Mind you, must say, I quite like the Devil Horns on the cover of that first one. Got a distinctly "heavy metal" look to it.

Sort of like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corna#Rock_and_Heavy_Metal

Yeah!

\m/ \m/

;-)
SG

155. Fleabytes

Comment #142491 by scottishgeologist on March 12, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Bonzai:

Except for the fundies who think that Jesus spoke KJB English Christians don't claim the Bible is the literal word of God. Sophisticated Christians instead say that the Bible was "inspired" by God but written by men

There is also the view, which is quite common, that the bible is "innerant" in its original manuscripts (which amazingly conveniently, no longer exist) So any difficult passages can simply be written off as errors in translation.

I remember, several years ago, a Church of Scotland minister wrote a letter in his own church magazine "Life and Work" explaining that a particular passage of scripture was not "his God's words" or something to that effect. Real pick and mix stuff this was.

If you dont like it, well just say "man made" rather than "god inspired" and that gets you off the hook.

The passage in question was this:

Psalm 137 vv 7 to 9:

7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Good eh? No wonder he felt bad about it.

SG

156. Fleabytes

Comment #142336 by scottishgeologist on March 12, 2008 at 10:52 am

Paula

Aye, I go along with what Steve Z has just said.

You also have an amazing ability to remain very calm and measured throughout the whole thing

Keep going, 5K is now well in sight!!!

:-)))

SG

157. Fleabytes

Comment #142038 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 5:21 pm

Clodhopper

Just getting back on the St Kilda stuff. And I promise no more, unless asked!

If you follow this link (its a google search)

then a whole pile of interesting pages get listed. I *think* they are part of a document which relates to the World Heritage Site nomination - they are certainly hard to find frokm the main site, so it may be that there is some sort of "back door " page into these.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site:kilda.org.uk/kildanomdoc&um=1&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw

Some of the info on these pages is fascinating - the geology is obviously the subject that interests me most, but the rest are great as well

Anyway, its 00:20 and like Zebedee said "Time for Bed!" Boing!

:-))
SG

158. Fleabytes

Comment #141947 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 12:52 pm

Clod

Just one other "link" thing - there is actually a lot of info on the kilda.org.uk site that is hard to find unless you google "site" search it

I'll try to find the links later - loads of good info in there if you can find it

:-))

SG

159. Fleabytes

Comment #141935 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Clod: "Neither SG or myself simplistically blame the Calvinists for Hirta's demise which was very sad"

I think it was simply a case that the 20th century caught up on it and life simply became intolerable. Several very good books have been written about it. eg "Island on the Edge of the World" by Charles Maclean and "Life and Death of St Kilda " by Tom Steele. There is also Calum Ferguson's "St Kilda Heritage"

However, I am not letting the Calvinists off lightly.

The popultaion of St Kilda "came out" in 1843 in favour of the Free Church. One of the FC ministers on the island was described a a "religious zealot" .Maclean describes:

"The Sabbath was a day of intolerable gloom. At the clink of the bell the whole flock hurry to Church with sorrowful looks and eyes bent upon the ground. It is considered sinful to look to the right or to the left."

Several of the writers about St Kilda have referred to the austere presbyterianism.

Sure it wasnt the final straw but I am pretty certain it didnt help things.

There is an interesting article about St Kilda and the first evangelical missionary there, John Macdonald "The Apostle of the North" written by Iain D Campbell, guess what a Free Church preacher who tries to wriggle off the hook.

http://www.stornowaygazette.co.uk/back-lines/John-MacDonald-and-St-Kilda.2720169.jp

Now Campbell is right up to a point - the first missionary was probably not too bad. However, he offers this rather lame remark:

"It is at least a workable thesis that MacDonald's reputation has suffered not so much through his own failings as through the failings of his successors as settled ministers of the island parish. MacDonald's was not the last ministry to have paid a price through the inadequacies of the men who came after"

Which comes straight back to the point that has been made about the later ministers being the zealous opressive ones.

The case stands.

(just an aside: Iain D Campbell has a take on Dawkins TGD here:
http://www.stornowaygazette.co.uk/back-lines/Challenging-Dawkins.2869138.jp )

Note IDC is considered one of the real spiritual intellectuals in the Free Church.

Anyway, as Clod says, another time another place. For anyone who is interested, see:

http://www.kilda.org.uk/

SG

160. Fleabytes

Comment #141916 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 11:38 am

Paula

Hey! Just notice you got a posting on the FCOS web site. Cant see how they could argue with the information you give there

Very clearly articulated

Good on yah!

:-)))

SG

You know that FCOS message board is looking awfully like a clone of this place..... Except it's censored (sorry moderated) to the point of uselessness...

161. Fleabytes

Comment #141860 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 9:56 am

Hey ho, that old business of "prayer" has come up again. Love it. Grown adults talking to the sky fairy and imagining that something will happen as a consequence of the fairy hearing their pleas

2 Scenarios:

1) David Robertson's bus trip some time back - trips gets its costs covered, David says its because he prayed about. OK you lot, pick yoursleves up off the floor, I know we are talking tectonic levels of impressiveness here....

2) Young child (of "devout" catholic parents ) goes missing in Portugal. Mega - Giga - Tera, nay brethren, Yota bytes of prayer from the devout, even old Ratty himself gets the sleeves rolled up. Answer: silence. zilch. nothing.

OK. what does this prove:

1) God only answers trivial prayers
2) God hears about the young child but thinks, "stuff 'em make them wait" (Otherwise known as 'God is a complete c*nt')
3) God does not exist

No contest.

:-))))

SG

162. Fleabytes

Comment #141783 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 7:44 am

Philip

" am stuck...who do I go with.....? Hawking's genius or Robertson's...arggghh my brain...somebody help me chose before I go mad!"

Easy...

Check out some Hawkwind, like lots of it.They did a song called "Master of the Universe" And you'll be in good company - Lemmy f------ HATES religion!


Better still, listen to it while checking out something really neat like NASA's "astronomy picture of the day"

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

Brilliant site, brilliant pics - just get the soundtrack right and the fleas will flee!!!

:-))))))))))))))))))))
SG

163. Fleabytes

Comment #141749 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 6:49 am

clearthinker:

Yes I am. I am totally amazed at the Universe. So much so that I cannot conceive of it as being self-existent, or having come from no where and nothing. Therefore I worship its Creator.

The thing is, if it wasnt for science, we wouldnt have as impressive a view of the Universe as we currently have. Our knowledge of black holes, red giants, massive galaxies, gamma ray bursts, distant clusters, exoplanets, Io vulcanism etc didnt come about because it is written in some holy book. Or because some Faithhead "got a word from the Lord" about it

It came about through observation, measurement and analysis

"God" has nothing to do with it.

SG

164. Fleabytes

Comment #141722 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 6:23 am

Oh well, here we go (rolls up sleeves)

5K ere this day is out....

:-))))

SG

PS cleratrhinker said: "Your faith in the inate is touching, but not empirically founded."

Empirically? Empiricism? A faith head talking about empiricism? Thats like Amadinejad talking about Zionism....

165. The Only One in Step

Comment #141719 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 6:19 am

jwilts

Thats very interesting. What I find amazing is the venue for these ECG meetings - Buccleuch Free Church - the minister there is Alex Macdonald who is very much a David Robertson fan. There is virtually NO reference at all on Buccleuch's website to these events, despite the fact that this is supposedly a "bible based" evangelical, anti-atheism group at work here

The only reference I could find is on their online calendar where there are a couple of references to ECM for the times specified

I wonder if they are actually embarassed by it?

After all, the likes of David Robertson have dismissed YEC types in no uncertain terms. Of course David Robertson and Alex Macdonald are part of the group trying to re-invent the Free Church so that it is the hip and trendy, happenin' sort of place - you know "Calvinism is cool", "Joy of Calvinism", "engagement with pomo society" and "contextualisation of the gospel"

I am sorry, but these guys cant have it both ways - if they are enabling the likes of these YEC types, then they are guilty by association

It puts them right into the fundy camp. And no amount of trendy spin will hide that fact

Also interesting is that the venue for these ECG talks is right close to David Hume Tower of Edinburgh University!!!

:-))

SG

166. The Only One in Step

Comment #141642 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 2:26 am

jwilts

Splendid piece of work there. A good example of someone who really knows their stuff challenging and pressing home the point. I have a mental picture of Andy looking around with that "help me someone " look on his face!

This Edinburgh Creation Group intrigues me. Edinburgh of all places, the birthplace of the Enlightenment, the Athens of the North....

Their web site contains some fascinating info:

http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/

Unders ECG News, we read:

"The Easter Story
08:58pm UTC, 9 Mar 2008
On Tuesday evening Paul James-Griffiths a former lecturer in ancient history will present a lecture on the Easter story 7:30pm Baccleuch Free Church"

Note the venue.

And how about this cracker further down the list:

"The Evolution Crisis
10:45pm UTC, 28 Feb 2008
The short book The Evolution Crisis is now online as a web book. This book tells the stories of five Atheist scientists who became Christians and Creationists.

One story well worth reading is that of Oxford Professor Arthur E. Wilder-Smith. He debated Dawkins in the Oxford Union Debate in 1986. Evolution won, but Dawkins refused to debate a Creationist ever again because the margin was much narrower than he expected (different reports put it as 115-198 and 150-198). Dawkins now only picks fights he knows he can win. This year he will debate with the former Bishop of Edinburgh, who even before the debate is not sure if God exists."

In that section of text on the original site there is a link:

http://www.tonguesrevisited.com/oxford_union_debate.htm

Note the name of the domain "tonguesrevisited.com" That, IMO, says it all. Yet these people want to be taken seriously. Tongues, FFS?

[sigh, rolls eyes.....]

SG

167. God's Gift to Kansas

Comment #141628 by scottishgeologist on March 11, 2008 at 1:21 am

Amazing how a slumbering thread wakes up again!

I love this line:

"Don't squander precious ignorance by researching it away"

Superb!


:-))
SG

By the way this business of threads arising from their slumbers can be a bit un-nerving. I am a member of a lively forum (which has nothing to do with either science or religion!) but has been going for years and has many long established members.

A thread "awoke" a few months ago and I realised when reading some of the posts (many of which were over 6 years old) that 3 of the writers had actually died. But their words were there, clear as day, complete with smileys and so on...

168. Fleabytes

Comment #140956 by scottishgeologist on March 9, 2008 at 7:51 am

Paula - that "days are evil" quote from David is one of those throw away bits of Scripture that believers comfort themselves with.

It is from Ephesians 5: 15-16:

15 Be very careful, then, how you liveâ€"not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

Looks like "evil days" have been around for some time...

Of course, good old Ephesians 5 also has this gem:

22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Good one eh?

Now let me tell you something. These people who go on about being "bible believers" - a lot of them will NOT practice what is written here. Admittedly, there are plenty of abusers who WILL follow this to the letter, but there are lots of evagie types who dont. Wonder why not? Zeitgeist too strong for their faith?

Its a bit like this one:

form 1st Corinthians:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

So, if I were to enter one of these "bible believing" churches that DR and other evangie types want to promote, you know, just prior to the start of the service, I will hear no womens voices? Maybe men discussing heady matters of theology, but no female voices?

Yeah, sure. The place will sound like a market for the simple reason that its as much a social club as anything. I've been in a lot of these evangie churches that claim to be "bible believing" and I can honestly tell you, the only one, the ONLY one, where I only experience silence was in the Free Presbyterian church - the uber-fundies who dont let their women wear trousers (pants LOL!!!), dont let their women cut their hair, women have to wear hats as well.

These so called bible believers dont even believe their own teachings. Certainly dont practice them.

Makes me wonder how strong a lot of faith actually is.....

:-)))
SG

Actually, a highly unfortunate side effect of the Free Presbyterians is that a lot of their women actually look quite sexy - long hair, high heels, nice feminine clothes.....

Have I just revealed that when I occasionally went there, I didnt have QUITE the right "spirit"? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

SG

169. Fleabytes

Comment #140608 by scottishgeologist on March 8, 2008 at 1:49 am

Richard

Aha!! The Jaberwocky!!

Amazing how one word can just trigger something that lies in ones brain, sort of asleep....

Full Jaberwocky here:

http://www.woodslore.org/jaberwocky.htm

:-)))
SG

170. Fleabytes

Comment #140607 by scottishgeologist on March 8, 2008 at 1:45 am

Fora! Wonderful word. Positively exudes intellect, reason, sense...

Reminds me of the time that Mary Archer (Jeffrey's wife) said: "I'm not in the habit of issuing ultimata" Hell, that made an impression - "fragrant" (remember that judge's description), seriously intellectual, and elegant almost to a fault.

Fora, Ultimata... excellent words (in that pythonesque "woody" sort of way.....)

:-)))

SG

171. Fleabytes

Comment #140599 by scottishgeologist on March 8, 2008 at 1:23 am

Hear Hear, to Richard and Paula's comments (Richard and Paula? Sounds like a TV show.... sorry! :-))))

This place is quite remarkable - I cant think of ANYWHERE in real life where you would get such a range of characters, thoughts, ideas, and hey, guess what 99.99% of the time it is good humoured, chatty and generally fun.

No need for "bronze age scribblings" or big bad fairies taking the huff.

Rock on RD.Net!

:-))

SG

PS: Might be wrong but thinking about it, the nearest I can think of in real space as opposed to cyber-space where you would get this eclectic mix is probably in a Student Debating Society - or maybe the pub afterwards..... or the session in someones room several hours after that.....

172. Fleabytes

Comment #140458 by scottishgeologist on March 7, 2008 at 12:04 pm

n0rr1s: Good videos!

Interesting guy that Lemmy, not everyone's taste I am sure, but every now and again, there is nothing to beat a good old Motorhead session

Interesting biography listed in various places on the web - I like this bit:

"Lemmy was born in Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire and raised in Anglesey, Wales. His father, a clergyman, left the family when Lemmy was three months old; the experience helped to imbue a deep hatred of religion in Lemmy and this is reflected in a number of his songs."

LOL!!! \m/ \m/

SG

173. Fleabytes

Comment #140443 by scottishgeologist on March 7, 2008 at 10:53 am

Paula: Good one! Thats Total Depravity on that graph - thats what that is - I am sure they've probably got the "full house" of the five points of Calvinism in there soemwhere.

Anyway, Friday night, light relief time.

Heres a proper resurrection for you - Lemmy style!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV6noHEd6XE

:-)))) \m/ \m/

SG

174. Fleabytes

Comment #140437 by scottishgeologist on March 7, 2008 at 10:43 am

Evidence, you want evidence?

Here's "fundy" evidence for you:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/aftereden/view.aspx?id=142

BTW, these have to be the most irritating cartoons ever. At least Chick tracts are just ludicrous and hilarious.

:-)))

SG


PS: Got a feeling its gonna be a long weekend with a lot of F5's.....

175. Fleabytes

Comment #140364 by scottishgeologist on March 7, 2008 at 7:49 am

Paula:

"But you'll be familiar with the theists' response, which is that it isn't appropriate to demand natural evidence for supernatural claims. How do you respond to that one?
"

two ways to respond:

1) Drop the debate there and head off to the pub - you are using two different frames of reference. Waste of time continuing

2) Theists claim tht the supernatural has an effect on the natural eg prayer, "charismatic tongues" etc, faith healing, prophecy

Get them to prove it - if they are claiming that their God or whatever has an effect on the natural universe, ask for proof. Because we are now dealing with things that CAN be shown

Unless of course... how about this one:

(Its an exchange, a short one, that happened on a church message board a short while ago. Accepted answer is interesting)

"I have a question, actually i have two, well i dont know if they are really questions or just random thoughts. i was reading a book and the guy was writing from the perspective that Prayer changes things - That through prayer we can change what is going to happen, by requesting things from God we can influence what is going to happen and that things are only pre-ordanied to a certain extent and that what has happened in history was not compleatly set in stone because what would be the point in prayer if we couldnt change things?

in the other book i read the dude was of the thought that we dont change things with our petitions and requests but that God changes us through prayer until the answer we expect is in line with His will then it will happen..."

And the answer she got:
"The second guy is right"

Which is completely different to what the Bible sys about prayer.....


:-)))))))))))))
SG

176. Fleabytes

Comment #140336 by scottishgeologist on March 7, 2008 at 6:38 am

al-rawandi

Love the insults!

Have a look at the "Biblical Curse Generator" here:

http://www.shipoffools.com/Features/Curses/Curses_body.html

OK, its a faith head web site, but this bit is funny...

:-))

SG

PS: 5K? Its a dead cert now....

177. Fleabytes

Comment #140210 by scottishgeologist on March 7, 2008 at 3:53 am

Hah! 7 to go until this thread hits 4K

Still no sign of clearthinker....

:-))

SG

178. Fleabytes

Comment #140207 by scottishgeologist on March 7, 2008 at 3:49 am

Paula, there is another way to search this whole site.

Go to google and try this - in the search box use:

site:richarddawkins.net plus whatever it is you are looking for

Google will then search only RD.net pages

Works well when you are hunting soemthing down, you know the site it is on, but just cant find it

Of course, it only works if google has actually got the relevant pages in its index

:-))

SG

179. Fleabytes

Comment #139879 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 3:46 pm

Actually, this hippy, stoner stuff might not be too far off the mark

I read somewhere that some sort of 'shrooms grow on Patmos where John wrote his Revelation. Man, that reads like some crazy shit... like he had done some serious 'shroom-time...

Or maybe the mescal worm got to him,, who cares, how anyone can take that stuff seriously is beyond me.

Except Iron Maiden, of course, whose "Number of the Beast" is sheer ecstasy....

:-))

SG

180. Fleabytes

Comment #139873 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 3:35 pm

Steve Z:

there may be a creator, but only if he is too drunk, drugged, or careless to do anything non-random, or too lazy to do anything at all.

So God's a hippy? A stoner? Like Shaggy out of Scoobie Doo? Hey, I could go with that....!!!

Much better than that nightshirt wearing bearded c*nt that just likes killing people.....

181. Fleabytes

Comment #139872 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 3:32 pm

Hey, 8 Fleabytes out of 10!!!

The thread is ROCKIN' again!!!

:-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

SG

182. Fleabytes

Comment #139869 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Diacanu:

Every so often, I come on this site and find myself hiting the cross in the right hand top corner thinking "Phew, these guys are good!!" and every so often I hit the cross, laughing like a nut-case!!

Tonight was one of those. your comment:

Well, what are we to do? Indulge the marshmallowy "God is full of sugary yummy love, and lives inside every mommy's hugs", talk?

Are we to actually debate how many mommy hugs an angel is made out of?

I mean, come on.

May as well get dragged off the side of the road to yammer about the scent of Santa's reindeer's droppings.

That was very, very, (fuck, lets have one more) very funny. Nearly pished myself!
Kudos, keep it up!

\m/

:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
SG

183. Fleabytes

Comment #139809 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Paula, you raise an interesting point there when you say:

it's impossible to keep up with all the threads on this site.

There is something about this place that is so addictive! Trouble is, it is so fast moving, that you'd have to spend all day on it, just keeping up with it.

You just have to hit refresh or F5, and lo, another comment!

Actually,,I find it very encouraging, its as if we are riding the wave of something big, like a critical mass has been reached , and that a major change is underway.

Hope so!

:-))

SG

184. Fleabytes

Comment #139794 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 1:52 pm

Bonzai said:

"The ontological question of God's existence is really neither here nor there. Believing in a super natural being in and of itself says nothing about one's position on most topics on practical importance"

A good starting point!

Religious people deal with "everyday" practical stuff in a variety of ways. Your average "church goer" probably doesnt see the "hand of God" in everytthing he/she does.

Its really only the hard core evangies who do. the ones who will pray about buying a new car, applying for a job or starting a business.

Maybe (I am not too sure) some Catholics would as well.

Obviously I am talking about christianity here - what it boils down to is that it is only a relatively small percentage of christians (in the broadest sense) that see "god at work" in their everyday environment.

Makes you wonder, what / who DO they think is in charge? Or is God not omni- whatever?

Must say, I find it really, really embarassing when these types come out with "I see the Lords hand in this" or "clearly, something moved in the heavenlies that day"

It is just such manifestly utter f*cking pish.

:-)

SG

185. Fleabytes

Comment #139733 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 12:50 pm

Diacanu

All quiet on the Clearthinker front (feels a bit like being in a foxhole, scanning the horizon with binoculars, looking for him) Just waiting for his "big guns" to open up.

Cant remember what his last post was.... hang on..... (goes away and googles...) Just checked - 3264 on March 4th

Been a clearthinker-free zone for 2 days... cant last. Besides, we want to hit 5K dont we? :-))

:-)))))

SG

186. Fleabytes

Comment #139718 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 12:32 pm

Bonzai raises some interesting questions there about the degree to which "believers" actually practice their religion.

I suspect a lot of it is simply "nominalism". Got to church, pay your weekly premium and thats it, forget it for another week.

A lot of the people I know who "go to church" are like that. They NEVER talk about faith matters outside it. Its just a social thing and probably something they have grown up with from childhood.

Even some evangies. I know of several who really pick and choose what they believe, yet they love to call themselves "bible believers"

Of course, people like Clearthinker would probably agree - as he says on his own web forum, "It is the robust biblical Christianity which stands up to Dawkins. Anything else just gets blown away"

:-))

SG

187. Fleabytes

Comment #139657 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 10:56 am

Vaal

Opaquethinker was in America - dont know if he's back yet. You can be sure, that as soon as he posts something, the responses will ensure that this thread hits 5K

By the way, what IS the record? Anyone know? Josh?

That Christadelphian one didnt half go on....

188. Fleabytes

Comment #139632 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 9:03 am

Paula,

You said: "The only way to negotiate it successfully is to keep your eyes cast firmly downward, so as not to allow yourself to be distracted from the sole purpose of reaching the end safely"

Heard this one? apparently the Ayatollah Khomeini, when exiled in Paris (before the Shah was deposed) used to walk the streets , looking down at the ground to avoid seeing the corruption and immorality of western decadence!!!!


:-)))
SG

189. Fleabytes

Comment #139612 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 8:01 am

Clodhopper

Joke for you:

Man out for a walk in Lewis on a Sunday afternoon. Not to osure of the road, meets a minister and asks him "Where does this road go?" "To Hell, if you are walking for pleasure!!!"

There are a lot more like those...

Such as:

"Why do Calvinists object to sex standing up?" It might lead to dancing....

Also, there used to be a poster advertising Glenfiddich whisky several years ago - it featured an almost unbelievably stern looking couple outside a Highland croft house and the caption underneath was "Dancing and Glenfiddich - two sure ways to Hell!!"

It really had to be seen to be appreciated. Superb!

:-)))))))))))))))))))))

SG

190. Fleabytes

Comment #139592 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 7:11 am

Paula:

The more fundamentalist the church, the more you will hear its members make statements such as, "I'm a miserable wretch" and "I don't know what depravities I might be capable of if it weren't for my faith";

Depravity is a favourite expression amongst conservative evangelicals (there, I didnt say fundy)

The "5 points of calvinism (TULIP)" have this as the first point:

1) Total Depravity or ORiginal Sin
2) Unconditional election
3) Limited atonement
4) Irresistible Grace
5) Perseverence of Saints

Or more fully:

1) TD: Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

2) UE: God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual.

3) LA: Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect

4) IG: When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted.

5) PS: "Once saved, always saved" You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ.

This whole system of theology creates a massive guilt complex, causes people terror at the thought that they might not be "elect" and can create an "I'm saved I'm alright Jack attitude"

It also enshrines Calvin's "horrible decree" - the doctrine of "double predestination" As Calvin himself puts it:

"Predestination" says Calvin, " we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is ordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say is predestined either to life of death....."In conformity, therefore, to the clear doctrine of Scripture (?), we assert that, by an eternal and immutable counsel, God has once for all determined both whom He would admit to salvation and whom He would condemn to destruction" (Institutes, Book 3, chapter 21).

This Calvinistic theology is still alive and well and who knows how many lives get screwed up by it.

It hung like a black cloud over Scotland for centuries, long after the Enlightenment had been established and still does in some places today.

If anyone wants t read a rather neat article about this stuff, there is a good piece by Dr Finlay Macleod (an outspoken atheist from the "last bastion of the Gospel") here:

http://www.culturehebrides.com/hebrideans/church/protestant/

A fascinating read!

:-))

SG

191. Fleabytes

Comment #139473 by scottishgeologist on March 6, 2008 at 12:13 am

Robotaholic said "please tell me why you feel the need to "worship" someone- just that word "worship" seems alien to me and just about perverted"

A very good point. A lot of worship, IMO, is little more than mind control. Look at some of those big charismatic gatherings - they spend ages singing and waving their arms around while the "worship band" whips them into a frenzy.

People have referred to it elsewhere as an "altered state of consciousness" that renders the "worshippers" vulnerable to the teachings of the preacher.

I have personally experienced this and quite frabkly I think it is manipulative. Mind you, that still doesnt explain why people would "want" to worship in the first place, except of course they are told to do so, by their holy book, and by their preachers.

And of course a lot of the music is saccharine, cloying mawkish inane drivel, repeated endlessly to maximise the effect.

And of course, the most important word EVER used to describe this hideous spectacle is "awesome" - these types are always enjoying "awesome" worship, having an "awesome" time with God.

PTL! Raise his sweet name! Glory! (As Pastor Deacon Fred would say) :-)))))

SG

192. Fleabytes

Comment #138997 by scottishgeologist on March 5, 2008 at 2:38 am

Clodhopper:

What puzzles me is the dynamic of why such a strong, proud and independent people living in such an adapted way within their environment, had any truck with the twat....why not just feed him to the puffins and get on with life?

This is a fascinating subject - just how do some missionaries, itinerant preachers etc manage to get entire communities under their sway?

Whenever you get "revivals" and "awakenings" this sort of thing is afoot.

Of course, the faith heads will say it is proof of the work of the "Holy Spirit", but there must be some sort of rational explanation for this phenomenon.

There are many cases I know of, where whole communities have been seized by religious fervour

There is an intersting article here, on what is known as the "Lewis Revival" This has been described as the last great regional revival in the western world.

http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Articles/062903LastGreatRegionalRevival.html

It is worth reading that article just to get a feel for how this thing works. However, remember that the Isle of Lewis was a pretty religious sort of place BEFORE this revival. And that they were pre-disposed to it. Looking for it in fact.

And I wonder how much fear plays in all of this. The preaching at the time majored heavily on damnation and hell and the need to "repent".

Could it happen in a place like Lewis today, the "last bastion of the true gospel" in the UK?

:-))

SG

193. Fleabytes

Comment #138969 by scottishgeologist on March 5, 2008 at 2:01 am

Clod

Never been to St Kilda, but would love to visit. Its interesting that the last Great Auk in Britain was killed there. In 1840. Story goes that it was killed because they thought it was a witch!

And getting back to church matters, regarding St Kilda, apparently, according to this article:

Whilst some of their customs showed a possible early Christian influence - the beliefs of the islanders were seen as a mixture of 'popery and druidism,' prompting the Church of Scotland to send out a series of missionaries from 1705 onwards. Some of the missionaries had a beneficial effect on the island improving housing and living conditions. However in 1844 the islanders were won over to the doctrines of the Free Church and from 1863-1889 came under the severe rule of a Rev John Mackay whose adherence to a strict Christian doctrine played a large part in the eventual downfall of the island republic. Mackay's autocratic rule undermined the traditions that had grown up on the island to such an extend that religious worship often left little time to carry out the essential tasks necessary for survival on the island

Wonder what the Wee Flea has to say?

SG

194. Fleabytes

Comment #138953 by scottishgeologist on March 5, 2008 at 1:37 am

Clodhopper:

"Indeed. Scottish geology is just so fantastic....seriously, specially the west coast!"

Certainly is! And unbelievably complex in some locations!

Actually, if I could build a time machine, I would love to go back, 6000 years to a place like Skye or Rhum, and have a look at the rocks, you know, in the days, hours whatever before Adam and Eve took a nibble of the fruit.

Would be amazing to see the same places before "creation groaned" as a consequence of Sin.....

Moving swiftly on to common sense, of course the great hero of Scottish geology is James Hutton. Nice little article about him here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hutton

Absolutely fascinating.
:-))

SG

195. Bulldozers tear down giant religious teapot

Comment #138946 by scottishgeologist on March 5, 2008 at 1:22 am

This teapot destruction reminds me of that other act of wanton vandalism several years ago, when the Buddha statues were blown up by the Taleban because they were "idolatrous"

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan

Ridiculous.

Mind you, after the Reformation, esp in Scotland a lot of cathedrals and churches were vandalised, heads knocked off statues etc because THEY were considered "idolatrous"

Funny isnt it how these people are like 500 years behind the rest of the human race?

SG

196. Fleabytes

Comment #138939 by scottishgeologist on March 5, 2008 at 1:04 am

You know, I've got a funny feeling this thread might hit 5K.......


Any remote hint of it flagging will be dismissed when the Wee Flea comes back from the States and starts pouring his pish all over it again...

:-))))

SG

197. Fleabytes

Comment #138938 by scottishgeologist on March 5, 2008 at 1:02 am

Styrer, Good Book has it all:

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, / was not with them when Jesus came.

The other disciples said unto him, "We have seen the Lord."

But he said unto them, "Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails,

and put my finger into the print of the nails, / and thrust my hand into his side,

I will not believe."

And after eight days again his disciples were within, / and Thomas with them.

Then came Jesus / the doors being shut / and stood in their midst

and said, "Peace be unto you."

Then said he to Thomas, "Reach hither thy hand / and thrust it into my side,

and be not faithless, but believing."

And Thomas answered and said into him, / "My Lord and my God."

Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me,

thou hast believed. / Blessed are they that have not seen / and yet believeth."

Esp that last line. Lack of empirical evidence is positively encouraged

:-))

SG

198. Fleabytes

Comment #138135 by scottishgeologist on March 4, 2008 at 1:29 am

MPhil

I think it would be a great idea if the philosophical / cosmological thinking were to be brought together in one or more articles, rather than spread out as a series of comment postings.

You know , with all these different ideas for articles, could end up with a Journal here....

:-)

SG

199. Fleabytes

Comment #138102 by scottishgeologist on March 3, 2008 at 11:59 pm

Steve Zara said

"I have been using the internet for more than 20 years, and this is the finest resource I have ever used, without any question. I can honestly say I have never seen an open forum work so well. There can be major disagreements and problems, but that happens everywhere. Richard Dawkins has really achieved something special with this site.

Totally agree Steve - I too have used the 'net for over 20 years, long before the Web was invented, when FTP servers, Veronica, Archie Gopher and Usenet ruled the roost.

This place rocks.

There are intellectual discussions here that just astound me. There is humo(u)r that reduces me to fits and there is a "community" that is truly remarkable, considering the relatively short period of time this site has been up

There is always something to learn here

And sure, it can get a bit heated and maybe a tad agressive at times, but hey, chill, look at the bigger picture.

This site rises like a solid monument of reason and sense above a morass of woolly thinking, woo-woo and BS (would have like something beginning with "woo" for that 3rd point but cant think of any...)

Hats off to RD and his team and all contributors (I'll even include the theists because if nothing else, their comments usually result in all sorts of returns that very often contain some absolute gems)

:-)

SG

200. Fleabytes

Comment #137892 by scottishgeologist on March 3, 2008 at 2:47 pm

kaiserkriss

4 sides of course could be a tetrahedron - Ever seen this? It used to be in an ancient book called the "Childrens Encyclopedia"

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/tetra/tetra.htm

SG