Comments by Mango

Comment #88426 by Mango on November 16, 2007 at 2:57 pm

What an amazing program. But it's inconceivable that a show like this would air nation-wide in the US. Only a handful of stations chose to air Jonathan's Miller "Brief History of Disbelief."

152. African Crucible: Cast as Witches, Then Cast Out

Comment #88206 by Mango on November 15, 2007 at 10:53 am

"Even the professional workers believe that witches exist."

This makes the entire culture sound "backwards" but replace "witches" with "Jesus" and it puts it into context. It's an endemic lack of reason, there and here.

153. Why Science Will Triumph Only When Theory Becomes Law

Comment #88100 by Mango on November 14, 2007 at 5:13 pm

It seems to me that a large percentage of theists who retort that "Evolution is only a theory" know that they are playing a rhetorical trick.

154. Dr Bari: Government stoking Muslim tension

Comment #87263 by Mango on November 11, 2007 at 3:39 pm

We never called the IRA Catholic terrorists.

Were the IRA conducting terrorist activities all over the world, as Muslims do, then we might refer to them as "Catholic terrorists."

155. Holy communion

Comment #86937 by Mango on November 10, 2007 at 1:20 pm

This points to the danger of over-generalising about religion and about religious believers.

in TGD Dawkins addresses belief in the supernatural that pertains to all theists. He *has to* generalize, and his generalization does no injustice to what defines a theist.

156. The good that comes from belief

Comment #86814 by Mango on November 10, 2007 at 7:58 am

If a judge sentences a person to do some community service, does that "volunteer work" have the same ethical value as someone who does community service because he believes God wants him to?

157. The good that comes from belief

Comment #86574 by Mango on November 9, 2007 at 4:23 pm

Gracias for the clarification, 'migo.

158. The good that comes from belief

Comment #86566 by Mango on November 9, 2007 at 4:09 pm

Some may see religion as a tired old superstition, but it does produce our most ethical and caring young adults — believe it or not.

And also our most inhumane, sadistic, murderous young adults.

And I'd like to know how "ethics" and "caring" were measured. If they'd have asked, "Do you think most people alive today will burn forever in Hell?" how well do you think the religious would have done?

159. Georgia plans service to pray for rain

Comment #86562 by Mango on November 9, 2007 at 4:06 pm

I'd like to see him invite some Native Americans to perform a rain dance.

160. On Being Not Muslim Enough

Comment #86265 by Mango on November 8, 2007 at 9:47 pm

This phenomenon of "not [insert adjective here] enough" has long been around. In America, if you're "not black enough" you can get called an Uncle Tom (from Stowe's novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin") or an Oreo (black on the outside, white on the inside).

It's a simultaneously interesting and despicable way of a minority group self-policing its members.

161. Losing faith in Quebec

Comment #86263 by Mango on November 8, 2007 at 9:32 pm

"We think it is up to each religion to give instruction to its supporters," he said. "It's not up to the public schools to do that."

EXACTLY!

162. Washoe, the sign-language chimp dies

Comment #85382 by Mango on November 5, 2007 at 4:16 pm

This chimp used language like any trained parrot. Just because it's a primate and not a bird doesn't mean it's actual abstract language.

163. Response to Theodore Dalrymple

Comment #85254 by Mango on November 5, 2007 at 11:16 am

A professor I spoke with this weekend decried that the new atheists are not bringing any new ideas. I replied, "Yes, but who has yet to respond to Russell's teapot?" He moved on.

This is more of an accomplishment, in fact, than it may appear. The race to the bottom has been fast and furious.

Harris is hilarious sometimes.

164. The Turning of an Atheist

Comment #85164 by Mango on November 5, 2007 at 7:47 am

comment 48. These deathbed conversions always remind me of Brideshead Revisited.

Brideshead came to my mind as well -- theists with their faculties (and agendas) intact prey on the senescent. But this politicization of Flew is beyond the pale.

165. Pope's 'morning after pill' speech criticized

Comment #83603 by Mango on October 30, 2007 at 3:28 pm

It's always odd to hear about countries like Chile that are more socially progressive than the U.S.

166. AAI 07

Comment #83230 by Mango on October 29, 2007 at 11:13 am

What should be a matter of debate is the level of government-provided heathcare, education, the minimum wage etc.

Pathetically, in the U.S. we still need to convince the populace that *everyone* deserves *some* basic level of healthcare. Only then we can then bicker on what the level should be.

167. AAI 07

Comment #83224 by Mango on October 29, 2007 at 10:42 am

comment 172

Since most of the jobs are unskilled, there will always be more "losers" than "winers" no matter how you slice it.

But can't everyone be a "winner" if we define winning as having healthcare, a federally-mandated minimum number of paid days off each year, a reasonable minimum wage, et cetera? And then we all become winners if we also view winning as diminishing people's use of religion as an emotional/socioeconomic crutch.

168. AAI 07

Comment #82913 by Mango on October 28, 2007 at 8:38 am

scooternyc. What about the WIC (women, infants, and children) program that we have here in the States? I assume you'd say it's the woman's fault for having a child when she's not financially able to care for it, so the gov't shouldn't ensure that the child is fed?

169. Sam Harris at AAI 07

Comment #82901 by Mango on October 28, 2007 at 7:57 am

comment 159

I was just wondering, what are atheists good at beside postulating the non-existence of God?

Don't expect to receive from atheism a coherent philosophy by which to lead your life. You might explore Humanism for that. Atheists create their own meaning in their lives. However, what we are "good at" as you say is upholding the separation of church and state and promoting science and reason over superstition.

Let say, I am feeling depressed and down now, and I need a mental-antidote to make me feel better. Do you think atheism can offer me this?

Atheism, if anything at all, just offers someone the realization that this is our one and only life, and therefore atheism is quite life-affirming. However, from that point of departure it is up to you to explore philosophy, poetry, novels, nature, inter-personal relationships, and so on in order to sooth your mind.

170. AAI 07

Comment #82899 by Mango on October 28, 2007 at 7:45 am

Jack Rawlinson: It's like a total blind spot with some Americans: this utter inability to imagine a single circumstance in which a perfectly decent person might fall into a position where they simply cannot afford health care - especially at the astronomical cost it comes in America. One can only surmise such people are either heartless, ignorant or severely lacking in life experience. Horrible.

Heartless and ignorant, yes, but why are so many of my fellow Americans like that? Because of a hegemonic discourse that all quarters of society drill into each us from infancy, "If you fail in America, it's your own fault. You can be president, if you work hard enough." Pile on top of that our politicians who are in the pockets of Big Healthcare exhorting that socialized medicine will give us long waits and degraded care, and you have the recipe for the kneejerk reaction you describe. It's a spell, Dennett might say.

171. AAI 07

Comment #82728 by Mango on October 27, 2007 at 11:32 am

Before hearing Chapman's talk I wondered how America could be such a highly Christian nation yet we have 1) the death penalty 2) no universal healthcare 3) no federal law for a minimum number of vacation days 4) widespread gun ownership, and so on. But Chapman made me realize I was thinking about the situation backwards -- America is not highly religious in spite of our barbarism but rather *because of it.*

For example, when a person knows that if he loses his job his children won't have healthcare it's no wonder that he attends church and throws his lot in with a supernatural Father to comfort him.

This is seen worldwide; the most stable and cared-for populations abandon religion, e.g. Western Europe. Countries in which the people live in fear have a populace unwilling (or even emotionally able) to abandon God.

172. Sam Harris at AAI 07

Comment #82699 by Mango on October 27, 2007 at 9:03 am

But let me add: I think it is for the sake of scientific etiquette that Dawkins in TGD says that he's a "6 leaning towards 7" in his atheism. And I wonder that if I could read his mind I'd find that he's actually a 7. I'm a 7 and my confidants know it, although like Dawkins I must publicly say that "technically I'm agnostic."

173. Sam Harris at AAI 07

Comment #82695 by Mango on October 27, 2007 at 8:58 am

When I discuss my religious views with a sophisticated theist I must eventually make the omission (or concession?) that, "Yes, technically I'm an agnostic because I cannot disprove anything, but only agnostic in the same way that I'm agnostic about unicorns. Functionally I'm an atheist."

So how do we who self-identify as atheists *really* differ from "skeptical agnostics." Perhaps not calling ourselves agnostics is why theists slap the labels "arrogant" and "militant" on us?

174. Sam Harris at AAI 07

Comment #82204 by Mango on October 25, 2007 at 9:27 pm

Thanks, Veronique, for informing me that Stephen Roberts is the originator of those ideas (comment 82100). It's something I've had in my head a long time and had no idea of the attribution.

175. Sam Harris at AAI 07

Comment #82105 by Mango on October 25, 2007 at 5:14 pm

commment 10: I think we would be better off if we would call ourselves Rationalists or Humanists.

I see your point, but it can sound condescending.

Theist: "I'm Catholic, what are you?"

Atheist: "I'm a rationalist."

176. Sam Harris at AAI 07

Comment #82100 by Mango on October 25, 2007 at 5:07 pm

Related to the term atheist, until recently I thought it was clever to say to a theist, "You're an atheist when it comes to Zeus or Wotan, so you're just like me except I go one god further." But that's not right at all. Christians and other theists today are not atheists when it comes to those gods -- they are merely non-believers. Atheism by definition denotes belief in no god(s), and only those people who do not worship any gods can really be atheists. So I've changed my tactic to instead say to a theist, "When you understand why you don't worship Zeus you'll also understand why I don't worship your god."

177. Sam Harris at AAI 07

Comment #82093 by Mango on October 25, 2007 at 4:57 pm

If someone says, "I'm Catholic, what are you?" I can say naturalist, rationalist, or ramble on about not believing in the supernatural, but when I'm done speaking the person is going to say, "Oh, you're an atheist." Not labeling ourselves does no good because it's the most accessible, common term for us that our neighbors have.

The real problem with the term "atheist" is that our communities do not know how normal, centered, and friendly atheists can be. Let's claim the word and be examples of admirable people who make it unreasonable for theists to use it as an epithet or stereotype.

178. You can't prove that you love someone, so don't expect proof of God

Comment #81389 by Mango on October 24, 2007 at 4:42 pm

Rebuttal: "Proving an emotion and proving the existence of an intellectual being are two very different tasks. No, I can't prove to you that I love my wife, but I can prove that she exists. Nevertheless, I expect a reasonable person to believe me when I say I love my wife. Likewise, I believe you when you assert that you love God, but I refuse to believe that God exists on only your word. I'm afraid you have a very real love for a very imaginary being."

179. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #81225 by Mango on October 24, 2007 at 1:02 pm

Bill O'Reilly and D'Souza think it denigrates scientists to remind them that they don't know all the answers to life's big questions. Scientists are happy to say they don't yet know, yet theists see that as a weakness and feel comforted by their own revealed Truth.

It's a basic misunderstanding of how science works that D'Souza exploits to win over a scientifically-ignorant audience.

D'Souza says it's as big of a leap of faith not to accept God as to accept him. I can't accept that he actually believes the bile he vomits during a debate.

180. War in Heaven: Hitchens Meets D'Souza on Home Turf

Comment #81189 by Mango on October 24, 2007 at 11:24 am

The Observer article was a little biased against Hitch -- I thought he held his own quite well.

The problem with debating D'Dunce is that it's hard to make your own points because you must spend all your time correcting his mistakes and misunderstandings and logical fallacies, et cetera.

181. War in Heaven: Hitchens Meets D'Souza on Home Turf

Comment #81159 by Mango on October 24, 2007 at 9:52 am

Hitchens debated Olasky earlier this year, so why was he chosen as a moderator? Not a neutral party I must say.

182. War in Heaven: Hitchens Meets D'Souza on Home Turf

Comment #80996 by Mango on October 23, 2007 at 9:39 pm

And Mr. D'Souza got the last word, declaring that "the atheist is chafing under the laws of a world in which we are accountable. Atheism isn't an intellectual revolt, it's a moral one."

Atheists are expounding the intellect and morality, both of which theism denigrate.

183. Debate between Michael Shermer and Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #80689 by Mango on October 22, 2007 at 4:09 pm

Watching this debate paid off at the end when an audience member relentlessly bugged Shermer about how many times homosexuality was mentioned in the Bible, and after the moderator pacified this man Shermer still graciously let him ask a question and it was, "Did you know that the surest way to reduce your life expectancy is to be gay?" HAHAHAHA

184. Make Richard Dawkins a Knight

Comment #80317 by Mango on October 21, 2007 at 10:19 am

Salman Rushdie then Richard Dawkins? I'm not sure the government is prepared to handle another controversy like that so soon.

185. Atheistic Denomination Struggles To Fill Void Left by Founder's Death

Comment #79954 by Mango on October 19, 2007 at 8:26 am

If Humanist Jews have 10,000 aherents in the U.S., then that's more people than dues-paying members of American Atheists and about equal with the Freedom from Religion Foundation. So this movement might represent a larger proportion of Jews than wear the label, just as atheist groups have far fewer numbers than the country's total atheists.

I can imagine that not a small number of Jews identify with the ethnicity but not a belief in the supernatural.

186. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77468 by Mango on October 9, 2007 at 11:37 am

Although political correctness served a certain purpose at a certain time, now is the time for rational heads to prevail in this matter of intolerance by theists.

187. The Price of Freedom

Comment #77177 by Mango on October 8, 2007 at 4:49 pm

Is no one expecting her employer, AEI, to foot the bill?

188. Interview with Richard Dawkins

Comment #76570 by Mango on October 6, 2007 at 10:04 am

Dawkins admits the "rise" of atheism is probably a reaction to the Bush administration, radical Islam, and so on. It's a shame that people aren't abandoning religion based upon reason or science because these people are not necessarily critical thinkers and might go on to embrace some other non-evidence based worldview.

189. Christianity's Image Problem

Comment #76274 by Mango on October 5, 2007 at 10:03 am

I'm little comforted to hear that Christianity is becoming less popular because of the Bush administration, fundamentalists, perceived hypocrisy, et cetera. I'd like to hear that people are abandoning religion because of logic and reason rather than as a knee-jerk reaction to perceived social ills.

190. Hirsi Ali Returns to the Netherlands after Losing Body Guards

Comment #75732 by Mango on October 3, 2007 at 2:04 pm

She was by far the most impressive speaker at AAI.

She just read, it seemed, directly from her book. Harris and Dennett had by far more interesting, intellectually stimulating presentations.

191. The Saudi connection that belittles Britain

Comment #73366 by Mango on September 24, 2007 at 10:01 pm

I'm always puzzled why the UK and America support a repressive monarchical country like Saudi Arabia. Puzzled, that is, until I remember the arms we sell to them and oil we buy from them.

192. Teacher: I was fired, said Bible isn't literal

Comment #73204 by Mango on September 24, 2007 at 12:42 pm

Why would he want to work back there? He should work elsewhere even if they offer to allow him to return.

As a way to signify to his community, and the country, that rationalists will not be driven away if they can help it. If I were he, I would certainly stay as an act of defiance against Creationists.

193. Teacher: I was fired, said Bible isn't literal

Comment #73196 by Mango on September 24, 2007 at 12:10 pm

This is scandalous that a teacher in higher education has to kowtow to Creationists. This college will hopefully be shamed into re-hiring him.

194. New Rules: A Religious Test

Comment #72683 by Mango on September 22, 2007 at 8:57 am

Maher's use of humor will reach many people who 1) aren't reading books 2) don't understand science 3) can have their ideas challenged by ridicule.

Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett, and Maher all have different tones and approaches, which is great to reach the most people.

195. Why Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously

Comment #72151 by Mango on September 20, 2007 at 12:40 pm

Skinner asserts, "– if, in other words, our understanding of God does approximate to a Dawkins version, then we are in danger of creating another golden calf."

But Dawkins is very general about his description of the God he writes about as "a supernatural agent who designed the universe and – at least in many versions of the hypothesis – maintains it and even intervenes in it with miracles....". And this is what most theists indeed believe. Straw man? Not at all. And Skinner does indeed have a golden calf.

196. Against the grain: There are questions that science cannot answer

Comment #72066 by Mango on September 20, 2007 at 8:57 am

When atheists debunk theist counter-arguments it's not as if we should expect the theists to then keep quiet until they have new thoughts. They won't have any and they'll continue to distort our views over and over again ad infinitum.

This is a struggle that must constantly be waged, on the Web, in print, on TV, in the courts, even though it is, to us, repetitive and mind-numbing.

Churchill's words, though way out of context, might instill some mental vigor: "We shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and the oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

197. The Nonbelievers

Comment #71112 by Mango on September 17, 2007 at 8:49 pm

"Atheism is what I don't believe in; humanism is what I do believe in"

Atheism is not something that can be "believed in." We are all born atheists and most of us are soon thereafter inculcated with a religion. He profoundly frustrates me with such inane statements.

But my problem is not so much with Epstein as with the exigencies of his office, "humanist chaplain." It's an intellectually disturbing chimera.

198. A Response to Jonathan Haidt

Comment #69811 by Mango on September 12, 2007 at 10:48 pm

Anyone feeling nostalgic for the "wisdom" of the Aztecs?

Great how Sam Harris dissolves a banal platitude with real examples from history.

199. We need a more intelligent religion debate

Comment #68438 by Mango on September 7, 2007 at 7:26 am

If humanity moves away from religion, things will get better. It's a faith.

It will not necessarily get better, but the evidence from the most atheistic and theistic countries shows a clear societal improvement with increased atheism. I do not claim cause-and-effect, but it's an encouraging correlation.

The author asserts that concerts and yoga classes might also be "religious" experiences so we atheists have no idea what we're talking about when we address religion. I think we are quite explicit in our criticism of religion as a belief system predicated upon the supernatural.

So A.C. Grayling is brilliant, except when he touches upon religion? Like how a comedian is hilarious until he jokes about fat people, and you're 400 pounds and so quickly change the channel.

200. Like any half-decent atheist, I'm fond of a bit of religion

Comment #67810 by Mango on September 4, 2007 at 11:01 pm

Here's just one item that irked me:

Atheism, he [Dawkins] says, "nearly always indicates a healthy independence of mind, and indeed a healthy mind". I'm a bit worried about that "nearly always" – an uncharacteristically fuzzy phrase surely, from the master of certainty.

What Linklater doesn't understand is that Dawkins cannot claim certainty for this because to do so would be untenable, just as Dawkins says there is "almost certainly" no God. Methinks that the writer doesn't quite grasp how honest writers write.

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