2101. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157141 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 3:21 pm

With doctors it is even worse.

Bonzai, amen to that!
I wonder if your thoughts could explain how Islamic engineering flourished in the European Dark ages given they had all the classical Greek texts. I would have thought they would have expanded on them as they did given the time they had.
Maybe that's why science was so far advanced in China and India in the past and why it will probably be so again in the future.
Idle musings on my part...

2102. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157134 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 3:17 pm

It is a quality bit. I was supposed to write an article for them, but I couldn't bring myself to be positive about Saudi Arabia, so I sort of dodged it.

Al, not everything written in there is complimentary to Saudi culture. Heck, some of the letters they publish are really scathing! Pen a few words - all they can do is edit it a bit :-)

2103. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #157128 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 3:12 pm

I just said he was hypocritically whining. Just wanted to clarify.

OK then, I'll accept that :-) After all, he is just a man.
Sucks to be you, mind. You have to take what your Jesus (or deity of choice) says as...errr...gospel. Woe betide you question him! ;-) (Joke! Only needling you ;-D)

2104. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157121 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 3:05 pm

Al

Arab News??? I know the editor, Khalid Ma'eena.


Didn't know you liked them

Nary a day goes by without me reading it. Having spent some formative years of my life in the Middle East, I have a soft spot for the culture and the people. Probably why I found Tim MacKintosh-Smith's Travels of a Tangerine such a good read :-)
I thoroughly recommend Arab News to everyone here!
www.arabnews.com

2105. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157117 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 3:01 pm

I want to know why. Why can't God direct an average doctor to say you?

Why did God make the ailment in the first place? Why test their faith by giving them said aliment? Why can't prayer alone heal? Loads of whys! Yet no one ever thinks about the doctors time, his or her training, years of debt and study...
Internet getting slow here in Aotearoa - at least, it is in my house (at home with a cold. Why make viri, god? WHY???)

2106. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157110 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Yussel, I know that there are traditions of discourse - Arab News mentions it quite often. I was trying to say that the traditions were, at persent, stronger before. Merely pointing out your use of tense. Religiosity, at present, does not seem to be wuilling to hear any dissenting voices. It may do again in the future.

2107. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157103 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 2:53 pm

Religious people, who do not hesitate to go to doctors, use the phone, fly in airplanes, drive cars, use computers, etc., will tell you with a straight face that science is unreliable.

Religious people will go to a hospital, be seen by doctors, undergo operations that save their lives and still claim they were saved by prayer... :-)

2108. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157094 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 2:49 pm

I mean to say that even WITHIN religious traditions, there is room for open discussion based on sane principles.

Are you sure you used the right tense here? I think religiosity has hardened somewhat of recent. Maybe soon it will soften enough for us to have proper discourse, but not at the current time we can't.

2109. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #157086 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 2:45 pm

Aaron9, what was the point of your initial post? That Dawkins was lying? In a whiny tone? I guess you could read it as that, but then again, I believe this was a fairly private thing t people of like minds (sort of thing one does in a pub), hence the tone.
Have to say that the theists didn't come out too well in this either.
Calling Dawkins an ayatallah doesn't make sense either - ayat Allah refers to the Jewish god in it's Arabian manifestation. Dawk don't believe in God, so he can't be an ayatallah :-) Sorry to be pedantic. He can be a guru, however - I guess you can say he is, though many people, I believe, use this site as a club, a place to escape the religiousity of life (just think how much it influences us - hard to escape, I can tell you!). It is a sounding board of a place, where theories can be discussed and where those taking those faltering first steps without the cloying blanket of gods smothering their thoughts and feelings can breath deeply without fear of persecution.
But, staying on topic, I haven't read RD's piece above in any national paper (I read a few online), so I can only presume the tone was for a more private audience :-)

2110. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157072 by Goldy on April 8, 2008 at 2:34 pm

Hmmm, must have missed something.
Anyway, I agree with Frankus in comment #157062 and with Bonzai and yussel123. Don't forget the power of education, mind. While a child might be too young to remember 11/9, the impact shouldn't be completely diminished. After all, that's the reason, aparently, why we are in some war against terror...
WWII ended about 22 years before I was born, but I still heard all about it and knew of it's impact. Knew of generals, politicians and battles - all from education. The impact was strong to me still.
If you want to find out how education can really impact of the memory of people, read any BBC Have Your Say on Tibet. Not the English language version is open to Chinese, they are flexing their typing fingers and giving vent to waht they see as gross distortion. This, of course, is becasue they were taught one thing and we in the west taught another...
I dare say of cretinism is taught as a scientific fact, we'll get the same thing happening here. Luckily for scientific progress, the east doesn't have that problem, so they'll take over, gladly.

2111. Get out of here, atheists!

Comment #156472 by Goldy on April 7, 2008 at 3:44 pm

This is the article I meant
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200707/religion

2112. Get out of here, atheists!

Comment #156468 by Goldy on April 7, 2008 at 3:40 pm

Richard - have you read the comments in the Chicago Tribune blog? I think her mouth has done all the work for athiests :-)
Dr B - I remember seeing a time magazine cover from the 70s (I think) asking if God was dead. I read an article that said the trend in America now is for less God and more secularity while Europe has the pendulum swinging the other way. While I found a lot of the Americans I knew rather "religious", they were religious in the Homer Simpson way....

2113. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156462 by Goldy on April 7, 2008 at 3:32 pm

Wow. And all because someone told people to live in a cave then tried to kill himself in a cartoonish fashion.
I also never realised Americans used twat - Dr B, you're a font of pretty useful information :-)
Diacanu, you forgot to link your "fucks" with "fuckety". Have to admit, mind, it was like someone opening a window and letting some fresh air in! :-D

2114. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #156435 by Goldy on April 7, 2008 at 2:42 pm

Steve

I'm a Darwinist regarding evolution.

Heretic! I'm a Wallacian! The only true evolutionists! :-)
Sorry, got a headache and I'm tired. Thought I'd cheer myself up... ;-)

2115. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #156092 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 5:06 pm

Good point. Why did God not make people as they are now then? Why all the waiting? The evolving, the finding stuff out....
Mind you, preaching to the converted, aren't we :-) You believe in God but not God as, say, the fundies believe. You believe in God as I would if I believed.
Odd thing, this religion thing. We all do it (as cultures, not people) even though the evidence around us points to there not being gods. Even if we don't believe in gods, we still evolve a religion so we can have somewhere to pray and meditate etc. The notion is so very intrinsic in us that we can't really see the absurdity of it all - indeed, we show great respect to those that wish to dress up funny and make pronouncements on our behaviour, indeed, on our very lives.
So very odd...

2116. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #156089 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 4:53 pm

Hello fstaheli!

I believe in God, that he created this earth

Why do you believe this?
Of course, i can be convinced of some extra terrestrial origin for life (panspermia, etc) but I personally cannot envisage why life should be brought to this planet by a god who presumably had a reason for it.
How would your feelings be if there was life on another planet - or even if life can be found in this solar system (say, Martian fossils, ummm, whatever that ice moon of Jupiter is called...etc)?

2117. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #156074 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Vadjong, we'll be accused of being Know-it-alls, a most dangerous athiest sect!
Still, better that than being an entemologist - they think they're the in sect! ;-D

2118. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #156052 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 2:58 pm

What did I miss?
Typical - go out, enjoy life, come back, log on and there's a fundy buggering off claiming he has a life to lead.
Liked this, though

The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.

You believe that strongly, do you?

One must believe in the absence of belief? Eh? Poor deluded fool - can't think outside the church!
As it is, I don't believe, I know :-)

2119. Anti-gay Okla. lawmaker attracts 1,000 backers

Comment #154820 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 7:02 pm

The oldest democracy is Switzerland, I think...

Not Iceland? Or the Isle of Man? Do the Swiss really count as I believe they didn't allow the women the vote until quite recently (quick google - http://www.swissworld.org/en/people/women/the_right_to_vote/ - aaah, yes)

2120. Beware the Believers

Comment #154818 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 6:56 pm

Let's just hope I can avoid their fate then...

Cheeky feller ;-D

2121. Biology prof expelled from screening of 'Expelled'

Comment #154793 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 5:59 pm

Theonlythingtofear, what flood?
Grand canyon would be a good discussion. Very interesting. Not here, though - not the right pplace, I believe.
So, you don't like athiest evolutionists? What sect - Wallacian or Darwinian? What are your views on religious evolutionists?

2122. Beware the Believers

Comment #154786 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 5:52 pm

upsidedawn, as I said before...
A Christian blowjob is done for the glory of God and in the knowledge that Jesus Christ is his only begotten son.
An athiest one is done for pleasure.
Strange to think the only thing different between athiesm and belief is a god or two. Everything else is just the same :-)

2123. Pastor attacks scientist's talk

Comment #154780 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 5:41 pm

Next time someone says "Darwinism" or "Evolutionist", I'd love to see the scientist on the other side say "Excuse me?" or "Sorry, I don't know what you mean"

I like your contribution. With regards to your line above, I generally tell people I'm a Wallacian myself ;-)

2124. Anti-gay Okla. lawmaker attracts 1,000 backers

Comment #154778 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 5:38 pm

Indeed. In fact I think it should be made compulsory for all attractive young men between the ages of 16 and 25 - strictly for the good of society you understand...

And the arbiter of beauty will be...?
Besides, all cats are grey in the dark, as someone once told me.
Can China still be considered a continuation of...well, ancient China?

2125. Beware the Believers

Comment #154771 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 5:25 pm

Anna, you had to ask...
http://ohprettylady.blogspot.com/2006/07/how-to-give-good-christian-blowjob.html

2126. Beware the Believers

Comment #154752 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 4:52 pm

upsidedawn
A Christian blowjob is done for the glory of God and in the knowledge that Jesus Christ is his only begotten son.
An athiest one is done for pleasure.
Kardy

The atheist will bite you if you call out to God during your rapture

Nah, just a little nip to heighten the pleasure ;-)

2127. Anti-gay Okla. lawmaker attracts 1,000 backers

Comment #154749 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 4:46 pm

Studies show no society that has totally embraced homosexuality has lasted more than a few decades

Jumping in late, but a lot of the refutations have been Euro-centric. As Bonzai pointed out in another thread, China has a rather long history of embracing and tolerating homosexuality :-) And the recent intolerance is.....a western import, by missionaries.
Check it out in Wikipedia and other sources.

2128. Beware the Believers

Comment #154639 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 2:27 pm

Think I must work on my typing too - my spelling is awful!

2129. Beware the Believers

Comment #154637 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 2:26 pm

Corylus, I think Al mentioned something about this recently. Rifles are good for shooting long distances but are ratehr irksome in wooded areas. Hand guns are not as accurate, but rather easy to carry adn if the prey is quite close, the accuracy is of sufficient levels as to make them very efficatious (forgive spelling).
I used to love rifle shooting at school. Still have an air rifle. Haven't shot at living things - supermarkets adn butchers cater to that for me, but there is something rather...magically fun in aiming at and hitting a target.
Takes all sort, I guess.
My wife used to do pistol shooting - I beleive she shot for her province in China

2130. Beware the Believers

Comment #154623 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Becomethe arrow - now that was one weird person! Wonder if he's still screaming in the alternate thread?

2131. Whale 'missing link' discovered

Comment #154610 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 1:59 pm

aragorn2007, you're joking, eh?

2132. Beware the Believers

Comment #154599 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Al, yes, I did. Name dancing at the dark recesses of my mind....had to find out :-)
I like Kardy too - he's OK. Can be annoying, but then so can my wife and daughter. Part of what makes people so enjoyable at times :-)

2133. Beware the Believers

Comment #154596 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Kardy, long time no hear. Still talking to God?
For thiose not in the know, Kardy hears God I believe it was revealed here...

91. 'Irrational Atheist' trounces God-deniers

Comment #119301 by Kardashovel on January 31, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Well, you can at least tell us what the clencher was.

Well, hearing God talking back to me, I guess. There's really no going back once that has happened.

But to be fair, that is not what made me a Christian... it just made me a theist.

You don't mind, do you Kardy? Just there are some new folks here...

2134. Beware the Believers

Comment #154586 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 1:27 pm

Anna

I can see that, easily. When he sent his horde of imbeciles here to promote his book, they were all chauvinistic a-holes. Even the woman he sent!

Aaah, yes, Lovely lady, if I recall her name correctly. Blow job expert, if memory serves...

2135. Beware the Believers

Comment #154581 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 1:25 pm

No one here has answered Day's destruction of Dawkin's six key arguments

Ummm, sorry Blackhead, I think this is not true.
http://zarbi.livejournal.com/110267.html. Look through the Beale thread adn you'll see quite a few refutations.
MPhil

The social status of females was certainly better in rome than it was in medieval europe for example

I'm not sure about teh social status of Roman and Greek women in Classical times was that great. Certainly from what I read of Classical Greeks, women were rather lowly. Now, Iron Age Northern European women's status was a lot better...so I read.

2136. BBC 'too scared to allow jokes about Islam'

Comment #154567 by Goldy on April 3, 2008 at 1:04 pm

The BBC HYS
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4571&edition=2&ttl=20080403210146
Woke up to it this morning. Was alright (Had a Muslim comic, some woman, a Christian bloke who kept using "Judeo-Christian tradition" when describing the UK - I think the fact that one of the muclims complained about it spurred him to use it every opportunity - another bloke and the head of Sharia in the UK who basically said comedy was a sin) for waking. tune in and see if you can listen to it - fairly topical so the Beeb will be airing it.

2137. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #154057 by Goldy on April 2, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Story on Irish citizenship
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/world/europe/25ireland.html?_r=1&scp=5&sq=irish&st=nyt&oref=slogin
I'm a citizen of the UK and of New Zealand. However, I was born in Brunei, so getting a passport for my NZ born daughter was hell. Took a year adn I had to find proof of citizenship and proof of at least 3 years of residence in the UK. This, of course, involved quite a paperchase and one rejection by the Home Office. Of course, it had to be in paper and it had to be posted from NZ - so quite a few things had tobe sent from the UK to NZ for me to send back to the UK. My NI number counted for nothing, so all the taxes I paid to the UK were of no use. Left a pretty bad taste in my mouth, I can tell you. Still, she has her passport now - used it once to get into Austria :-)
Donald, your comments from last night are also OK by me but how you describe Islam is also a pretty good description of Christianity. Mauybe it is because we are culturally Christian we can't see the faults as well as Muslims and why we can see Islamic faults so well. Incidently, was watching a program last night on some Arabic inventions of about 900 - 1200 AD. They took a lot of Greek research and carried it further (stuff we use now - hydraulics etc - which we gained from "Islamic" research). Islam can't say the west gave them nothing, we can't say they gave us nothing and neither can say paganism had nothing :-) But I think the conversation has moved on....

2138. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153691 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 8:47 pm

Donald

Islam in the middle east today is strongly authoritarian, forcibly supressing other religions and applying religious doctrine to political power

Maybe today, but we keep the regimes that breed this in power (house of Saud, Mubarrak, etc). Besides, this is how Christianity was until quite recently.

No doubt christian western interference was a significant influence, but I think Islam had a much greater influence.

Western powers destroyed the Caliphate after WW1, carved up the territories into mandates, created Israel, installed rulers... How much influence could Islam have had?

I'm not knowledgeable enough to debate this in detail. My impression is the opposite.

Jews flocked to Islamic lands after being kicked out by Christian rulers. Taxes were payed by non-Muslims, but there were no real forcible conversions as far as I can read. the light of Classical Europe was kept lit in Islamic lands. Things were not totally hunky-dory, no, but they were not in Christian Europe either. Your impression is not totally correct.

And since my point was about the relationship of western islamic apologists to middle eastern islamic regimes, I don't see how aboriginal views affect that.

Again, the people are not to blame - regimes are. Western leaders have kept middle eastern leaders in position, indeed installed and deposed them as they saw fit (Saddam is a good example). That's by the by - Islam, as you say, treats others badly unless they convert. We Anglos did the same to the aboriginals we found. We tried to make them us, but of a different colour, including making them accept Jesus. We can't accuse too loudly because of that.

True, but I'm looking at the influence of the same "holy" scripture that underlies them all, and the direction in which that scripture drives them

And I say again, it is just a book. It all depends on the translations, as it were. The Bible is hardly a beacon of tolerance and morality - it just depends on how we read it. Muslims say the Koran is the word of God but I know enough to know that not many actually believe in it implicitly.
Max

One day some of you who argue for limiting free speech because it incites hate, or violence may have that kind of obtuse legal language turned on you.

Indeed, when your sermon in the mosque haas to be put through a government censor before it can be delivered, before prayers are regulated for content and so on :-) It can work both ways :-D

Right, my turn to sod off home now. Catch you all tomorrow - though heaven help me try and find any answers to anything I wrote here!
TTFN!

2139. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #153638 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 5:53 pm

The notion of greater Russian or Chinese world dominance doesn't send me into a panic, but it doesn't provide me much comfort either.

Doc, is this not just the fear of our times? I was always of the opinion that things happened either rather quickly (Austro-Hungarian empire or Ottoman empire collapsing) or it happened gradually without anyone really noticing (Roman empire - western half).
Anyway, you comment above - though they are rising, I think they also have problems at home...

2140. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153633 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 5:37 pm

I also am rather disturbed by the prevalence of misleading apologetics for Islam - it seems to be presented as benign, and similar to xtianity, when in a minority in western countries, yet we see from history and in the present middle east, that things are different when Islam gets control.

Different to what? The present Middle East could be said to be in its current situation as a result of Christian western interference. From history we see that there was a greater degree of tolerance in the Islamic world than there was in the western. Aboriginal populations of various English speaking countries could also argue against your point.
The Koran is one thing - a book. The religion might be derived from its teachings but the people themselves decide how to follow it. Islam in the west is different to Islam in the Middle East which is different to Islam in Asia. Our good friends the House of Saud would like a puritannical version of Islam be the only version there is, but the likes of Iran and China get in the way. Oddly, we don't thank them for it...

2141. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153593 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 4:09 pm

Well, well. Anna, you've driven them all away?
I only went to do a spot of work and come back to find everyone gone. Except Steve but I have a feeling you're not really the sleeping sort...
Aaaah, well, back to the news sites for me then...

2142. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153496 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 2:04 pm

But I do remember thinking that it wouldn't be half bad if a version of Islam in which women could be teachers got exported to other parts of the world, rather than the radical Wahhabi crap the Saudis are funding.

If China regains its position in the world, it should. With power comes prospectors and traders, with them, ideas.
Western ideas are all over the world, even the most rabid Wahhabi follows them. Soon, Chinese and Indian ideas and ideals will be everywhere too.

2143. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153492 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 2:01 pm

I have said in a previous post that I think Muslims add a valuable aspect to our culture. They have different philosophy and traditions, and I have studied and enjoyed those

I have lived in Abu Dhabi and Syria and enjoyed both immensely. I also rate Cairo as one of the nicest cities I have visited :-)
I see no problems with Islam, my daughter was delivered by an Iraqi (I know, maybe a Christian, but Islamically influenced, no?) and many friends of ours are Muslim (though not very good ones...).
I can see your points and I agree with you. Just sometimes you seemed to veer towards Fanusi's tone... ;-) Probably why people took a more opposing position. Maybe, in a way, what we have here is waht we have in our world at the mo. Less rhetoric etc from both sides should bring about greater understanding...maybe.

2144. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153486 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 1:57 pm

I am in free fall, with nothing but more dishonesty and strawmen to break my fall.

Here, have a virtual beer. A selection of Emmerson's best beers :-)
http://www.emersons.co.nz/

2145. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153480 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Quetz, though Islam in China is different from Islam elsewhere, they are not what one would call happy. As for terrorism, the Chinese have a handful with Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers to worry about some discontented Uighurs...
I do think, though, that despite religion, the Han are Chinese first and religious next. Maybe that's what intermarriage will help do in the West.

2146. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153474 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 1:47 pm

If you raise ignorant children, you don't need terrorism to make them morons.

:-) And one of the more important aspects of a multicultural society - if it works as it should. I do hope my daughter learns more than just Euro-British and Chinese cultures (as well as Kiwi culture) :-)
However, one can't help being born of certain parents - why many Islamic people don't want the west - it's what they are taught....at least, that's the impression I get reading some of the letters at times in Arab New (oddly, often from those living in the west...)

2147. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153458 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 1:39 pm

"Our intelligence services need to be trained in the genuine understanding of Islam, and its various languages"

Be nice if the silly buggers learn to talk to each other too ;-)

2148. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153454 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Quetz, you mean like this

The Islamic Association of China (Chinese: 中国伊斯兰教�会) claims to represent Chinese Muslims nationwide. At its inaugural meeting on May 11, 1953 in Beijing, representatives from 10 nationalities of the People's Republic of China were in attendance. Its stated missions and duties are: To assist the people's government in its implementation of the policy of freedom of religion; to carry forward the fine tradition of Islam; to cherish the motherland; to unify Muslims in participating in the socialist construction of the motherland; to develop friendly relation with Muslims in other countries; to maintain world peace; to collect and edit historical data about Islam; and so on. Its governing body is the national congress. Its headquarters is in Beijing.

I do recall a few Sikhs had to explain the difference between Sikhism and Islam post 11/9. That's one reason I'd rather not advocate scaremongerism...

2149. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153441 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 1:20 pm

Nairb, methinks you're being a bit tricky here. How many westerners (for we are all lumped together) have been affected outside their country of origin because of fundamentalism in Islam? I take it you've not booked a holiday in sunny Basra recently, nor are you going to. In fact, I'd like to know how many citizens of the US cancelled holidays in Europe over perceived fears due to Islamic action?

2150. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #153434 by Goldy on April 1, 2008 at 1:15 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/world/middleeast/04youth.html?_r=2&scp=2&sq=iraq, clerics&st=nyt&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

BAGHDAD â€" After almost five years of war, many young people in Iraq, exhausted by constant firsthand exposure to the violence of religious extremism, say they have grown disillusioned with religious leaders and skeptical of the faith that they preach.

In two months of interviews with 40 young people in five Iraqi cities, a pattern of disenchantment emerged, in which young Iraqis, both poor and middle class, blamed clerics for the violence and the restrictions that have narrowed their lives.

"I hate Islam and all the clerics because they limit our freedom every day and their instruction became heavy over us," said Sara, a high school student in Basra. "Most of the girls in my high school hate that Islamic people control the authority because they don't deserve to be rulers."

Atheer, a 19-year-old from a poor, heavily Shiite neighborhood in southern Baghdad, said: "The religion men are liars. Young people don't believe them. Guys my age are not interested in religion anymore."