Comments by Steve Zara

Comment #256355 by Steve Zara on September 29, 2008 at 4:52 am

Comment #256347 by Fanusi Khiyal

If I'm "against gay rights", that kinda begs the question why I'm the one who seems most up on the actual violations of those rights.

Oh that is quite simple. It is a tactical move to provide another way to attack Islam.

I shall (try and) take my leave of this topic now, at least for a while. I have work to do today.

I leave it to others to consider why someone who claims to be in favour of gay rights posts on a radical conservative site that they support a candidate because she is against such rights.

I encourage others to explore that site and the nature of the views posted. It is quite revealing.

2252. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256344 by Steve Zara on September 29, 2008 at 4:44 am

Comment #256335 by Fanusi Khiyal

Of course I do. Now, care to answer my question?

I am a bit taken aback. You support gay rights for Muslims, but not for Americans. A quick google search found this:

http://www.nicedoggie.net/2008/?p=2084

Comment by LC Fanusi Khiyal UNITED KINGDOM

:em01: Honestly, does the Obama campaign come with a self-destruct button?

I freely admit that I was so-so about Palin. Then I read more and more of the complainst by the loony left against her. Take the following list of 'complaints' that was posted in an argument I was having:

She is a Conservative.
She is anti-abortion.
She is a gun nut and shoots animals for sport
She is a proponent of aggressively extracting Alaska's natural resources, from oil to natural gas and minerals.
She supports a ban on same-sex marriage.
She opposed a ballot measure that would have provided added protections for salmon from potential mining contamination.
She doubts global warming.

How in the world is this anything other than an endorsement?

You believe her ban on same-sex marriage is an endorsement, yet you believe in gay rights for Muslims. What do you have against American gays?

2253. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256339 by Steve Zara on September 29, 2008 at 4:39 am

Fanusi-

You flatter me with making it look like I stand in isolation like some lone hero against your citizenship strategy, but I have to admit I don't work alone. In the UK, all major political parties, the legal system of the UK and of the EU all find your strategy against principles of human rights, and hence illegal.

2254. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256330 by Steve Zara on September 29, 2008 at 4:24 am

Comment #256324 by Fanusi Khiyal

This is hairsplitting of the worst sort.

On the contrary, I think it is hair-splitting of the very best kind: it separates civilized values from those that treat people as heterogenous groups, as herds. It is that kind of hair splitting that I passionately wish to support.

2255. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256322 by Steve Zara on September 29, 2008 at 4:19 am

Comment #256315 by Fanusi Khiyal

Come on, I asked you if you supported gay rights for Muslims?

2256. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256305 by Steve Zara on September 29, 2008 at 3:54 am

Fanusi-

The reason isn't because all Muslims are the same, but because Islam chokes off all the best qualities in humanity and encourages the absolute worst.

Some people seem to be able to not be choked. There are, for example, gay Muslim groups who wish to assist gays and lesbians who happen to be Muslims to live more open and happy lives.

I would actively encourage those who worked in this way to stay in the UK. They could help change attitudes within Muslim communities, and help release the "choke hold" of dogma.

I am sure you would support their work, as you are for gay rights, aren't you Fanusi? Even for Muslims?

2257. Brunswick school board to consider creationism teaching

Comment #256275 by Steve Zara on September 29, 2008 at 3:15 am

"The law says we can't have Bibles in schools, but we can have evolution, of the atheists."

One minute this guy asks why we can't see evolution happening, the next minute he says that atheists in schools are evolving. What is he on?

2258. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256268 by Steve Zara on September 29, 2008 at 3:06 am

Steve, could you also next time post the whole of my sentence? Because, as you notice, it goes on like this

I read just not individual sentences, but months worth of posts. You say things like "stop Muslim immigration".

You see, I was referring to your rhetoric as an object of dislike, because it is meaningless. If we're going after unassimilable, anti-democratic, anti-human rights, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-everything-you-like chaps, then we're going after Muslims. You know that as well as I do.

No. We are dealing with some muslims, but by no means all, and I suspect, by no means most.

The advantage of non-specific targeting is, as GoatBoy has shown, that we deal with other thugs at the same time.

Comment #256261 by Fanusi Khiyal

I repeat: why should one member of the human family, the retarded, thuggish, useless member of it, be allowed to wreck things for everyone else?

They shouldn't. But to label an entire group of hundreds of millions as "retarted and thuggish" is absurd.

As I said, your "target the group" policies like banning Muslim immigration just isn't available, and would not be available short of a very nasty political revolution with people in power of whom I am sure we both would disapprove.

So, we want to work to avoid that revolution. You need to come up with policies that work within existing political frameworks.

Most of your solutions will work within that framework.

2259. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256249 by Steve Zara on September 29, 2008 at 2:29 am

Comment #256185 by Fanusi Khiyal

Second of all, I dislike this "no targeting of one groups specifically",

I know, but it is a fundamental part of current human rights principles, and even more importantly, legislation - national and European. Thankfully, things have moved on since the time of Lincoln.

As I have posted before, this is not a matter of what anyone likes, it is a matter of what is actually going to be possible to implement short of major political changes that only far-right parties have proposed. I mention that they are far right, meaning they aren't going to get into power in the near future.

Mass targeting of people based purely on culture or stated religion just isn't going to happen. Deal with it, move on, and come up with available solutions, not what you want to implement.

Now, a healthy society would say: "No, there won't be, because all of you little thugs have just worn our your welcome.

That is nonsense. Any society that labels all people of any given culture or religion as "little thugs" simply because of their lifelong membership of that culture or religion is far from healthy. It is rotten at the core. It is itself thuggish.

GoatBoy-

How could the UK make Steve's "limited immigration" policy work then?

The way things are done now. You monitor people and see if their actions match their words.

2260. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256045 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 5:09 pm

Comment #256042 by GoatBoy36

I wouldn't just frame it as an effort to deal with Islam either, we've all seen the teenagers of today acting poorly, gangs on street corners, talk of knives, etc.

Yes, exactly. That is why I have, all along, been wanting a non-specific approach. If you target behaviours and attitudes, but not explicitly religions or cultures, then you can, I believe, be far more persuasive and at the same time deal with a broader range of problems.

Could one not say that it would be beneficial for everyone (us and them) if young people were taught what it is to be a good citizen, or more fundamentally, a good person, as they go through school?

I think you could teach things in a way that is far more appealing.... not how to be "good", but how to get on in society for your own advantage.

2261. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256028 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Comment #256023 by GoatBoy36

So what would you do? I have given my strategy.

2262. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256019 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Comment #256014 by cerebate

You make good points, and I have a lot of sympathy for your views.

You have also made me realised that I was mistaken:

I guess its more to do with the laws and accepting those , rather than any cultural value , isn't it?

Yes, it is. Our important cultural values tend to me written into laws - equality for women, for example.

2263. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256010 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 4:36 pm

Comment #255995 by GoatBoy36

if you're all that bothered about people being "out of line"

I am not bothered, as I am currently having fun with the "offensive" link.

[click] There I go again!

2264. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255996 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Comment #255982 by GoatBoy36

This argument seems to be basically...

"You don't want the BNP. They will have nasty policies that you will hate. Tell you what, let us handle things. Here are our policies. Sorry? They look like those of the BNP? How can you possibly say that - we are the good ones. We aren't nasty like the BNP. Trust us."

2265. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255974 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Comment #255959 by Fanusi Khiyal

Okay, Steve, enough.

No, not really. While you keep posting views about removing rights, I will keep posting that I, at least, have a real problem with that.

When it comes to our political scene, he's the best we've got.

You would say that, as he agrees with you. That he agrees with you is not a justification for saying he is the best. You have to put a case.

Where's your alternative then?

How many times do I have to repeat it?

There are many policies that are needed, such as..

Get rid of faith schools eventually, but for a start control their intake and monitor what they teach. Ensure lessons on critical thinking, comparative religion and citizenship.

Ensure that religious and political groups which have worrying dogma are monitored, so that we can come down hard on hate speech and incitement. Close down meeting places where this happens and prosecute those who spread such hatred. If necessary, custodial sentences. If necessary, isolation.

Immigration and entry rights can be restricted on the basis of those who accept certain cultural values.

I have gone over all this before.

And, note - no specific groups targeted, causing feelings of victimization and solidarity, and no breaches of current human rights laws.

2266. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #255960 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 3:52 pm

Comment #255949 by Bonzai

I have no objection to people being deluded. Perhaps we all are in small ways. What I object to is organisations propagating delusion, and using that delusion to put some people in power over others as preachers, bishops and popes.

2267. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255955 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 3:47 pm

Comment #255944 by Fanusi Khiyal

I think the more Geert Wilders's we have in power in Europe the better.

From Wikipedia:

"In recent interviews, Geert Wilders more than once indicated that the Dutch constitution and European Convention on Human Rights should be amended or temporarily suspended to protect citizens from "Islamic extremism". "

Suspending values to protect them in this way is like shagging in support of virginity.

2268. Those fanatical atheists

Comment #255883 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 1:47 pm

Comment #255487 by mjr1007

Let's try some basic reasoning, combined with experimentation.

I have the experience of seeing something that memory serves looks like a wall. I hit it with my fist. Ouch! That hurts! I guess there must be something there then. That makes me a materialist, at least.

I know that my mind is flawed, and subject to illusion and delusion. Dreams and gut feelings and anecdotes from others are not reliable guides to what is real.

Someone tells me there is a God. I say "show me something I can try and punch to see if it is there". They say they can't, and so I remain a materialist, for now.

That is it. That is all the argument necessary against the supernatural. We need no symbolic logic, and no argument from complexity. All we need is to realise that human minds are unreliable, and we need to keep "punching" reality to see what is there.

2269. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255878 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 1:32 pm

Comment #255871 by Diacanu

I have been looking over GoatBoy's posts, and I find it hard to get any clear message at all. I may just be lazy, but if I have to read past one or two paragraphs before I actually get to something that seems like a definite point, I give up. I don't intend this as an ad-hominem - it may just reveal my short attention span.

One of the great things about your posts is that you actually make points, often in words that seem close to a form of poetry. I admire that.

2270. Debate: Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Comment #255831 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 10:57 am

Comment #255828 by Karlsson

I profoundly disagree with you. There is a general pool of stupidity and ignorance in the human population, but religion has specific attributes that harnesses those characteristics and helps them spread. It tells people that they can have, with little or no effort (just based on gut feelings) a direct line to ultimate truth - that their hatred of women and gay people is supported by the creator. It also insists that they spread their views to impressionable children, and attempt to convert other adults. It also provides what many would consider the ultimate reward - eternal paradise (and eternal punishment for those who fail).

2271. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255813 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 9:59 am

Titania-

PM for you.

2272. Why There Almost Certainly Is a God, By Keith Ward

Comment #255789 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 8:18 am

Comment #255788 by Oystein Elgaroy

Indeed. I should have said "something that doesn't fit with common sense and everyday ideas of the world".

2273. Why There Almost Certainly Is a God, By Keith Ward

Comment #255783 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 8:09 am

Comment #255782 by emmet

I think it's a pity that it's so often explained as a mysterious quantum phenomenon when the underlying principle can be illustrated on any musical instrument that covers a couple of octaves.

Only if such instruments spontaneous play notes at random :)

There really is quantum mystery, I believe.

2274. Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space

Comment #255778 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 7:47 am

Comment #255777 by decius

Yes, but that is just a position. There isn't any dynamic aspect to it.

I think it makes sense to talk about an "arrow" of time, but not a flow.

2275. Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space

Comment #255776 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 7:38 am

Comment #255774 by decius

it has dynamic properties, otherwise present past and future would be meaningless concepts.

I think you are wrong here.

I have yet to see any serious physics that suggests anything dynamic about time (I am not sure that it even makes sense - as you need time to measure dynamic things, so you can't use time to talk about time!). In physics, past and future are just points on an axis.

2276. Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space

Comment #255772 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 7:14 am

Comment #255765 by decius

Does time flow? What does that even mean?

2277. Why There Almost Certainly Is a God, By Keith Ward

Comment #255763 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 6:52 am

Comment #255760 by Bonzai

Invoking the God of the gap is even worse that you suggest. It is also a claim to have special methods of obtaining knowledge.

"Science doesn't know about this, but I can say that God did it".

2278. Why There Almost Certainly Is a God, By Keith Ward

Comment #255753 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 6:02 am

What is the point of being a theist when we are not sure exactly what God is?

I would love for someone to come up with a description of the nature of God-stuff, and how it is supposed to have arisen.

Also, most supernaturalists are really materialists. They believe that miracles happen in the physical world. Miracles are supposed to be physical phenomena that happen to material objects.

2279. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255741 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 5:07 am

Mitchell-

No, I guess that bothers me too. I take far more offense to condescension than anything else, probably largely because of how great I think I am.

You are great!

Now, watch how I nimbly switch this back to the topic:

One of the problems I have with people like Palin is that they are being condescending, as was her appointment. She is condescending because she rates her religious views above those of thousands of experts. Her appointment was condescending because it was saying to the American public that someone as mediocre has her was all they needed.

decius-

I bet you have a nice arse, too. :)

Oh behave!

2280. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255739 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 5:01 am

Comment #255728 by Titania

Replied.

2281. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255730 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 4:40 am

I only get upset in real discussions.

I consider these real discussions! I don't have a different "real life" persona (at least I think I don't).

I often get annoyed, and frustrated, which increases the sharpness, and all around dickatry of my tone, but when someone is just trying to insult my person, or attack me, I quickly loose any air of seriousness about me. That always lightens my tone. I honestly find it amusing.

My weakness is that I get upset when people question the quality of my mind. My mind is one of my few assets.

I don't mind at all if someone says I am, for example, a "far left multiculturalist nutter", but if someone says "you seem to be incapable of understanding me", or "you clearly haven't thought about this", it gets to me. I realise this is a form of vanity, and it is a flaw.

2282. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255701 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 3:23 am

Comment #255699 by Fanusi Khiyal

Thanks. That is the source of much of my ire.

Ah! Now I understand. I have been very naive in not realising how much such terms would push the buttons of someone.

My bad.

2283. Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space

Comment #255700 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 3:19 am

Comment #255228 by Oystein Elgaroy

Thanks for posting that Scientific American link. I remember that article, and that it was one of the most interesting and enjoyable on cosmology I had read for some time.

I realise now I have been mistaken about how the expansion of the universe operates, after re-reading the "Is Brooklyn expanding" section. You are say that the expansion of the universe is just a large-scale approximation, but the article implies that effects of expansion are present at even the smallest scales:

"In fact, in our universe the expansion is accelerating, and that exerts a gentle outward force on bodies."

However, I now realise that what it is talking about is the acceleration of expansion, which is to do with whatever is causing that (such as dark energy) being present at all scales.

2284. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255696 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 3:12 am

Comment #255693 by Fanusi Khiyal

VRWC

I had to look that up!

If I did imply you personally were part of a Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy (it also stands for Victorian Race Walking Club), then that was an over-reaction. What I believe is that a few of your solutions to the problem of fundamentalism are solutions that I would expect to hear only from someone who has far-right political views.

However, I now realise it was a mistake to label such views "far right" or even "facist". Even if that is true, it does not help explain why I think they are mistaken. I have decided to concentrate on doing that.

2285. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255690 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 2:58 am

Comment #255685 by Fanusi Khiyal

I don't want another flame up on these threads, especially since Steve is sticking to his side of the bargain.

I didn't realise there was any bargain. It is just that after my most recent huff, some wise people from this site pointed out to me that I should not take personal attacks and "button-pushing" so seriously. Use of this site should be fun, not a source of constant annoyance. I have tried to take this good advice.

2286. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255662 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 2:07 am

Comment #255654 by Laurie Fraser

Sorry, I occasionally slip up with language. I'll try harder to be consistent.

I have had another thought about GoatBoy's post.

If I was giving a party, and had invited many people into my house, I would actually be far more offended if I found out that someone proposing extreme views had been given a calm and polite response, implying that such views were acceptable. I would far rather someone raised their voice and made clear that such uncivilized views were not appropriate.

2287. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255647 by Steve Zara on September 28, 2008 at 1:51 am

Comment #255562 by GoatBoy36

if he adopts a hostile tone towards others .. instant karma, dude.

You clearly haven't followed the progress of debates.

I make a habit of starting off each discussion calmly. You will note that I have indicated the respect I have for the knowledge of Fanusi and others and how that is an important resource for the site. However, whenever I point out that some solutions suggested to problems of extremism are themselves extreme, I usually get a very hostile reaction, which has included such button-pushing nonsense as "Elton John being beheaded in Trafalgar Square". I have also been accused of "bending over backwards to be nice to Jihadists" or words to that effect. I have been accused of being idiotic, of being dim, of being ignorant and so on. Now, this may be me being too emotional and reactive, but I am only human, and I tend to react to such provocation. I am trying not to now, as it ruins the atmosphere of the site for me.

However, to insist that it is up to me to remain calm and perfectly mannered while insults are thrown is, like, totally unfair, dude.

EDIT: Also, I have to ask, what is wrong with being hostile? I happen to think that certain views aren't just wrong, but a threat to society. It may be just me, but I can't see myself sitting down with supporters of such views over a cup of tea.

2288. Those fanatical atheists

Comment #255353 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 11:08 am

Comment #255349 by mjr1007

Finally, something we can agree on, Occam's Razor is not part of symbolic logic. The reason I keep referring to symbolic logic is that is how statements are analyzed for validity.

No, you are missing the whole point of the discussion. There are countless valid statements, but the real problem is how these statements are tested against reality.

Ontological arguments never work, as you can't get to what actually exists from logical or language-based investigations. What you need to test a model against reality is hard evidence. And which models you start testing against reality is determined by the use of Ockham's Razor.

2289. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255352 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 11:01 am

Comment #255331 by Nairb

I agree that extremists are not going to find the right solution to problem. Mainly because they see a greatly exagerated problem and are relaxed about how you apply human rights to others.

I don't think the level of the problem is relevant, as no matter how severe the problem is, we just aren't going to get the political shifts required by the extremists to implement their solutions. I think this is a very useful counter-argument to the extreme solutions suggested by Fanusi, Stryer- and others - that these solutions just aren't going to be able to be applied in this reality, so arguments about the ethics of them are purely academic.

Personal i "feel" that UK is a small bit too relaxed on dealing with extremism while France is about right.

That is my view too.

2290. Mathematics and faith explain altruism

Comment #255322 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 10:02 am

Comment #255321 by AntonAAK

Where do they find these people?

Vienna, apparently!

However, this does illustrate what can happen when experts in one field attempt to comment about another. It is probably appropriate to mention Fred Hoyle and the 747 argument here.

2291. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255311 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 9:37 am

Comment #255295 by Bonzai

Personally, I am glad to see that there are huge political and legal barriers to some of the policies supported by Fanusi and Styrer-. The UK would not just have to suspend the current incorporation of the European Declaration of Human Rights into UK law, but also remove itself from the European Court, and probably break certain links with the UN. Such actions as these, and the removal of citizenship from natives are just not going to happen unless some far-right party (such as the BNP) gets into power.

So, I think it is up to people who believe there is a real problem with extremists (that includes me) to come up with realistic and practical solutions, not solutions that could only be imposed in some wildly unlikely political situation. The problem has to be dealt with today, not in some political scenario that would take years if not decades to arise (hopefully never).

2292. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255289 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 8:27 am

Comment #255284 by Styrer-

It's common practice, Steve.

If it is common practice, then that is scandalous, and it should stop. It is against the European Convention on Human Rights, and is therefore illegal.

2293. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255276 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 7:41 am

Comment #255275 by hawt4dawk

I do agree with Fanusi that this is a slippery slope for the reason that once you grant "a privilege" it is seen as a "right" and when you move to take away the right or block expanding it, then you provide the means for "outrage" and rebellion. I think that the introduction of Sharia is a disaster for Britain.

My views have changed. I agree, although I don't think it is a disaster yet, if things can be changed soon enough.

2294. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255268 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 7:05 am

Comment #255264 by Titania

On the other hand, I, and Steve, and many other self-centered others have grave and justifiable concerns about the abrogation or suspension of civil rights to combat militant Islam. What is to stop the government from using this against atheists? Neither you nor Fanusi has ever satisfactorily answered this.

I would like to repeat again another reason why I consider suspension of any civil rights to be a real problem.

It is a form of admission of defeat. It plays into the hands of those who claim that Western societies are decadent and weak. We are effectively saying "yes, we agree".

Part of the battle of ideas has to be to show that our ideals are strong and worth sticking to.

2295. Those fanatical atheists

Comment #255257 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 6:43 am

I find it very interesting that your response completely ignores the issue of Occam's Razor in symbolic logic.

That is because it is irrelevant to symbolic logic itself.

Ockham's Razor is a guideline as to how to select between alternative hypotheses.

Now as far as you silly little complexity argument goes. There is a very big difference between ALL and INFINITE. BTW which infinite are you discussing? Infinity from set theory? If so which Aleph are you using, I would guess you are talking about Aleph sub 0 but I would not presume to put words in your mouth, so please let me know.

Showing you know about different orders of infinity is not any kind of argument.

BTW, is it really you intentions to argue that a few very expensive experiments that last for fractions of a second is really controlled fusion in any meaningful way?

Personally, I would. I think it is a rather amazing technical achievement.

2296. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255253 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 6:35 am

Styrer-

Why, Steve, would you 1) both overwhelm foreigners in inviting them to be part of a such a hard-won cultural setting

Because in the case of gay-supporting Muslim campaigners they could help make life a great deal easier for people who are really suffering within oppressive communities. It is far more effective to involve people who have shown themselves able to work within communities than to say to someone who is gay that the only hope they have is to abandon all interaction with family and culture.

and 2) why would you seek to make members of a society you clearly do not revere, nor espouse as a value-ridden location you want to relinquish to any old fucker who wants entry?

I don't think you understand my position. I am happy to restrict immigration, but on an individual basis based on the attitude of each individual towards Western democratic ideals, human rights and towards integration into society. It may be that this restriction results in a dramatic decrease in Muslim immigration, but I believe it is far more effective, and fairer, as it is not based on selection by country or culture. I think that such selection is all you need. It also protects against people such as Rappers who wish to promote anti-gay feeling, for example. It is a broad method of selection, but because it does not (and need not) target specific communities or cultures, it gives no excuse for such communities to claim victimisation.

(Selection for imigration or entry might also include questioning people's intentions regarding education, and whether or not they intend to try "sabotaging" it with religious dogma. That may keep the Palins of this world at a distance.)

2297. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255243 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 6:01 am

Comment #255240 by Styrer-

There are Muslim groups around the world, small in number, but active, who attempt to provide support and encouragement for gay Muslims.

Would you ban members of such groups from entering the UK and becoming citizens, and so helping gay Mulsims in the UK come out and live happier lives?

2298. Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space

Comment #255223 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 4:19 am

Comment #255220 by PERSON

General Relativity says that gravity isn't really like a force at all. It is a curvature of space. It simply defines the shortest route from A to B in curved space.

2299. Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space

Comment #255218 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 4:07 am

Comment #255217 by PERSON

The interactions you talk of are for forms of matter and energy we have access to.
If they are necessarily far away, we may just not have had the opportunity to observe their interactions.

The interactions are a fundamental part of General Relativity, they should be general, and not just aspects of what we observe.

2300. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255213 by Steve Zara on September 27, 2008 at 3:39 am

Comment #255206 by Fanusi Khiyal

The point was that we can do these things and have our societies continue just dandily.

I am afraid I have to disagree. As I said, we are in quite a different situation. The situation regarding human rights has moved on a lot, even since as recently as the Second World War.

I think governments, due to technology, have considerably more power than in those times, and can work much more secretly and have far more information and control over citizens. This is one reason why I don't trust them with the kind of powers you suggest.

I am perfectly happy for there to be procedures to locate and identify people who are attempting to incite violence, or overthrow the state by force, and for those people to be dealt with entirely within a legal framework which includes human rights.

It may be a mental block, but I just can't see what the big deal is about expulsion and removal of citizenship. I can't see how more conventional punishments, such as imprisonment (including isolation from others if problems continue) can't be just as effective.