2301. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #83738 by irate_atheist on October 31, 2007 at 5:13 am

591. Comment #83685 by Dianelos Georgoudis -

By the way, you are correct to write about my speaking of the "God person", but please note that it's also the "God reality". God is the whole of reality, and the whole of reality is a person.

2302. Pope's 'morning after pill' speech criticized

Comment #83734 by irate_atheist on October 31, 2007 at 4:23 am

27. Comment #83728 by Matt7895 -

The Pope can go to hell.

2303. Italy's Padre Pio 'faked his stigmata with acid'

Comment #83440 by irate_atheist on October 30, 2007 at 3:40 am

20. Comment #83329 by brother john -

Not a lunatic look. In the little wafer that he holds he "sees" a man crucified.

2304. Downward, Christian soldier

Comment #83437 by irate_atheist on October 30, 2007 at 3:24 am

34. Comment #83350 by brother john -

I very much doubt that fathom is actually saying the people who wrote these books did not exist. In the same way that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle existed and Sherlock Holmes' adventures were fiction.

The writings in the bible, however, are a mixture of fact, allegory and myth. Part of the division between us is where we draw the line on this matter. Can we agree on this?

On another note - I did draft and send a long response to your last post to me. Unfortunately (and not for the first or last time I suspect) the damn post disappeared into the ether never to be seen again. But, to precis very briefly:

1) Science, empirical study and reason allow us to see behind the 'seeming'.

2) Well, OK, if you only take the parts that agree with New Testament, then you agree the rest is 'false' religion. Was it a different God in the wrong parts? Were these 'prophets' mistaken? What is your interpretation?

3) Fine - discuss all you like - it is your right to do so. I'm perfectly happy to take some of his examples - story of the good samaritan, for example - as good examples of caring for others. Cutting off your own hand if you do something bad with it, however, is lunacy.

4) I do not intend pontificating to you as to what you believe and I hope I do not give that impression. The you in my posting was directed at Dr Williams in the third person. I am, however, curious to know your take on his statement.

5) I don't feel I was discussing evil, more discussing the rationale behind holding an obviously absurd belief that is claimed to be universally true. Yes - I do understand your statement as regards head/heart.

6) Black & white views - as regards gods, absolutely. No real evidence for, or need of, any. As regards people and their actions, of course not. I used one example in my posting where I am in strong agreement with a leading religionist on a matter. I then gave an example where I strongly disagree with the individual on a different matter.

7) It may sound harsh, but when believers talk about their god, they are deluded. On other topics they well be world experts and worthy of high regard. Please bear in mind that there are plenty of educated individuals, and even emminent Professors, of different faiths. You and I can only reasonably conclude that someone's academic standing cannot be used to ascertain the truth of their religious beliefs.

Anyway, I hope you had a pleasant weekend. I'd better dash - got to go out and see a client now.

2305. Atheists don't believe in anything

Comment #83204 by irate_atheist on October 29, 2007 at 9:13 am

Sometimes they will argue the reverse. That if we atheists don't worship God, we must worship money, celebrity or suchlike. I call this the 'Peter Hitchens' hypothesis after one of it's main proponents. It is, of course, utter tripe and provably false.

2306. Letters: Theology has no place in a university

Comment #83175 by irate_atheist on October 29, 2007 at 7:21 am

177. Comment #82870 by jim buck -

And why do you assume that I produce ant-atheist(sic) parodies. I am myself an atheist.

2307. What's the evolutionary advantage of offering your place to an old woman on a bus?

Comment #83134 by irate_atheist on October 29, 2007 at 3:24 am

Well, it depends on what revolver she's pointing at you. And, of course, if you feel lucky.

2308. Face to faith

Comment #83133 by irate_atheist on October 29, 2007 at 3:21 am

Well, The Independent is my normal paper of choice, but the sheets just aren't the right size when unfolded. Interestingly, The Times works equally as well.

And, of course, if you're bored, you can always have a read as you pass by the cat. It's amazing what the casual reader can learn.

2309. Don't write off religion - it can be the key to a stable family

Comment #83128 by irate_atheist on October 29, 2007 at 2:48 am

Well, on another topic, I think we're being overly harsh on fascism. After all, we all know that Mussolini made the trains run on time. And moreover, there's nothing like a bit of National Socialism to bind together one's fellow countryfolk with a singularity of purpose.

2310. Face to faith

Comment #83127 by irate_atheist on October 29, 2007 at 2:44 am

6. Comment #82844 by Ilovelucy -

Luckily I know in what direction the cat is most likely to miss the litter tray and I place such inane articles strategically. Managed to get the cat to piss all over the pope a few months back. Most satisfying for all concerned :)

She once did a shit on George Galloway - completely unprompted. What a star!

2311. Face to faith

Comment #82840 by irate_atheist on October 28, 2007 at 2:28 am

The only reason I buy The Guardian these days is that it fits perfectly on the floor-space under our cat's litter tray. Appropriate, I feel.

2312. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #82375 by irate_atheist on October 26, 2007 at 7:40 am

499. Comment #82356 by Philip1978 -

Save one of those virgins for me, please. The wife and I haven't yet decided what to have for dinner tonight. A succulent roasted virgin would do nicely.

As an aside, what sauce do you have with them? I usually have HP Brown Sauce, but the wife insists on smothering her portion with tomato ketchup. Do you think it is mandatory to drink Tea as an accompanying beverage? Neither of us drink the damn stuff and I prefer fruit juices.

2313. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #82372 by irate_atheist on October 26, 2007 at 7:32 am

Theism is an entirely different way to understand reality, one that postulates that reality at bottom is not physical and governed by mechanical laws, but rather is spiritual and governed by personal will. And it turns out that the latter way to understand reality works much better than the former.

The reason I have for dismissing Zeus is that a worldview based on God works much better than a worldview based on Zeus. (For one my wife has climbed mount Olympus and tells me she did not find any palaces on its summit :-) The same goes for the case of Emperor of Japan. And the same goes for atheism by the way.

2314. Science owes its origins to Christianity or Religion

Comment #82369 by irate_atheist on October 26, 2007 at 7:14 am

Stock reply -

"So, in what possible way does this make your religion true?"

2315. Prejudicial concerns

Comment #82347 by irate_atheist on October 26, 2007 at 5:52 am

Re: Comment #81079 by nickthelight -

I couldn't agree more.

2316. American kids, dumber than dirt: Warning: The next generation might just be the biggest pile of idiots in U.S. history

Comment #82346 by irate_atheist on October 26, 2007 at 5:47 am

Re: 40. Comment #82344 by Convertedchristian

Re: 39. Comment #82246 by kabal

Queensbury rules, please, gentlemen.

2317. The Transcendental Argument for God

Comment #82330 by irate_atheist on October 26, 2007 at 4:33 am

Stock reply -

"Go and lie down in a quiet, dark room for a couple of hours. You'll soon feel better. Nurse! Next patient please!"

2318. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #82299 by irate_atheist on October 26, 2007 at 2:46 am

477. Comment #82257 by Dianelos Georgoudis -

A quick 'spot the difference contest' to lighten things up around here:

a)

There are many millions who pay lip service to the claim that every word in the Bible is literally true, but they obviously do not believe it as evidenced by the fact that they, for example, work on the Sabbath without giving it a thought, even though according to the Bible doing so is a terrible sin punishable by death.

hypocrite (n) : a person who professes beliefs and opinions that they do not hold [syn: dissembler, phony, phoney, pretender]

2319. You can't be moral without God!

Comment #81833 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 8:50 am

Stock answer -

"Define moral."

2320. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #81827 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 8:43 am

Comment #81822 by apaeter -

Oh, come on. Surely Mr. Hitchins deserves a better description than that...

2321. Arguments From Design, First Cause, Something Rather Than Nothing, Fundamental Constants

Comment #81819 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 8:35 am

Stock reply -

"What, or who, made your God?"

2322. That's not MY God or Religion you're criticising

Comment #81812 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 8:24 am

Congratulations! You've created another God! And, coincidentally, it's another one that I don't believe in either.

2323. The God Delusion and Alister E McGrath

Comment #81807 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 8:13 am

Surely someone should write and publish a book titled "The McGrath Delusion".

I, for one, would love to see that in all good book stores priced £9.99.

2324. Science can answer how questions but only religion can answer why questions

Comment #81806 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 8:09 am

Stock reply -

"I don't see that Religion answers any questions at all."

2325. Atheism is a religion and you're as bad as the fundamentalists

Comment #81804 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 8:01 am

6. Comment #81414 by dloubet

Atheism is a religion just like bald is a hair color, or not playing baseball is a sport, or not collecting stamps is a hobby.

2326. Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams criticizes popular atheist writers

Comment #81802 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 7:56 am

Comment #80528 by steve99 -

Would you prefer that I wrote:

a) Wow!!! An atheist believes we survive our own death. It could be true!!!

or

b) Wow!!! How can anyone who has demonstrated at least some degree of rational thinking actually believe such an absurdity!!!

C'mon, really, what do you exprect an irate atheist like me to say? After all, I've got a reputation to live up to :-)

2327. A new website addition: Debate Points

Comment #81739 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 5:47 am

I, for one, welcome this mass-debating tool into our armoury.

2328. You can't prove that you love someone, so don't expect proof of God

Comment #81737 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 5:45 am

Which particular God?

2329. Letters: Theology has no place in a university

Comment #81735 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 5:44 am

167. Comment #80261 by jim buck -

If you are who you claim you are - a claim for which, incidentally, we have no evidence either way - are you seriously suggesting that your letter is the basis for a rational argument?

2330. Downward, Christian soldier

Comment #81711 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 4:28 am

29. Comment #81685 by brother john -

Aha!!! I see you play your trump card. Your interpretation of Christianity is the 'true' one and most of the others are wrong!!!

I regret to say that, whilst I am bound to agree with you on many matters of morality and suchlike, I am not swayed but this particular assertion.

You interpret Chrisitianity as you want to interpret it. Others do the same. My dearly beloved father in law, for example, neatly sidesteps the filth in the Old Testament by saying "We're New Testament Christians here - we ignore all of that nastiness". And there's no hell, gays should be allowed to marry, etc etc etc.

He does this - as you do - because he is the very essence of a decent man. Not because of what is written in a mish-mash of a book of dubious provenance.

Yes - he may well quote The Bible to his flock to support his viewpoint. But that which does not do so, is not spouted from his pulpit. The man on the spot, is it were, decides his own 'true' interpretation that his flock should believe and follow.

If all that Christanity, its priests and adherants preached were love, tolerance and goodness to one's fellow human, I would support them (as I support Amnesty Internationl, The British Red Cross et al) but they do not. They have to adhere to - or at least pretend to adhere to - a false set of premises and convince others of their truth. Not particulary moral behaviour, either way you look at it.

Below, I will outline an example of where a certain indivdual and I stand on some matters:

-----

1) I wholeheartedly support Rown Williams recent statements about how children are being hot-housed and treated by their parents and that, where possible, parents should make sacrifices (usually financial) to spend time with and actually care for, their offspring.

2) However, when the Archbishop of Canterbury says -

"Christianity teaches that each person is created by God with a distinct calling and capacity."

(Ref: http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/sermons_speeches/070512.htm)

- I call this assertion, for that is all that it is, absurd. If the assertion were true, He quite clearly wants 30,000 children a day to die in Africa from preventable causes.

-----

No doubt you will assert, in the second case, - as would the Archbishop - of course He doesn't, He wants us to help them. (But he cannot/will not? Answer that within the framework of a perfect, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God if you possibly can.)

My reasonable response to this can only be, "What makes you so special he has a plan for your life whilst thousands of children are, literally, dying from poverty. How arrogant. How ignorant. How deluded.

My dear Brother, it's over to you. I sincerely hope that your reply to the above is not what I expect it to be. (It's a real shame that I know of no way to create a 'hidden panel' on this thread that you could reveal immediately after posting your answer)

2331. The God Delusion and Alister E McGrath

Comment #81662 by irate_atheist on October 25, 2007 at 2:28 am

I still cannot comprehend how a man like Prof. McGrath can entertain, yet alone regurgitate, such inanities. Once we've cracked that problem, perhaps half the battle is won.

2332. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #81146 by irate_atheist on October 24, 2007 at 8:56 am

429. Comment #81140 by Dianelos Georgoudis -

Let's be candid. It makes no sense however you look at it. More lunatic than moral, frankly. It is yet one more example of the absurdity of religion.

2333. War in Heaven: Hitchens Meets D'Souza on Home Turf

Comment #81115 by irate_atheist on October 24, 2007 at 6:49 am

69. Comment #81114 by Johnny O -

I agree. Someone should setup some kind of mass-debating society where this can be discussed properly.

2334. Downward, Christian soldier

Comment #81100 by irate_atheist on October 24, 2007 at 5:31 am

Brother John -

1) General Dannatt is not "speaking up for his troops" in this instance. He is trying to force his own personal delusion upon them. The fact that we can both agree that he has stood up to the government's shameful neglect of our soldiers is neither here nor there in this context. Soldiers join up to serve their country -not to be preached at by those who have the power of life and death over them.

2) The Gospels are not synonymous with internal consistency either. Hardly helps your side of the theist/atheist debate does it? I offer no apology for stating this.

3) In my experience, inconsistency and hipocrisy have to be bulwarks of faith - faith itself is so inconsistent and its claims so hipocritical that it cannot avoid the charge.

4) "What is asserted without evidence can be disregarded." Absolutely - I couldn't agree more Brother. The phrase "Hoisted by your own petard" springs somewhat uncharitably to mind.

5) In my experience many of the faithful profess different beliefs - quite often, in my experience, to different people in different contexts depending on how they don't want to be pinned down. You appear to be an exception to this rule, for which I salute you. Others are far more slippery.

6) I for one do not 'despise' the good general. He is a man who seems to care deeply about his men, is a good leader and tactician. He is, however wrong and is trying to spread his own brand of wrongness (see point 1 above). His behaviour is deplorable, even if, as an individual, he is not. (Hate the sin but love the sinner, anyone? Even some of us atheists find it's a better way to get on with people...)

7) There is no such thing as "atheist creed". A classic strawman and I'll say no more about that assertion.

8) To quote:

Before the court of reason propriety and honesty Grayling is an utter fraud. Or incapable of consistent, accurate, honest evidence based thinking. As is anyone who agrees with all he says.

The BS is far too smelly for considerate approaches.

2335. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #81084 by irate_atheist on October 24, 2007 at 3:23 am

424. Comment #81083 by Dianelos Georgoudis

The truth of theism

2336. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #81073 by irate_atheist on October 24, 2007 at 2:29 am

393. Comment #80914 by Veronique -

He is the infamous Father Dougal McGuire.

I will let you do your own research at http://www.fathertedonline.ukf.net/

2337. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #80857 by irate_atheist on October 23, 2007 at 8:09 am

Once again, debate here has descended to a stand-off between those that can spot absurdities and those that can only spout them.

2338. Downward, Christian soldier

Comment #80780 by irate_atheist on October 23, 2007 at 2:59 am

Haymoon -

That statement appears to be 50% accurate.

2339. Downward, Christian soldier

Comment #80761 by irate_atheist on October 23, 2007 at 2:12 am

When I read this of someone with the power of life and death over thousands, why am I somehow reminded of 'Brain Damage' by the Floyd?

The lunatic is on the grass.
The lunatic is on the grass.
Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs.
Got to keep the loonies on the path.

The lunatic is in the hall.
The lunatics are in my hall.
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more.

And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.

The lunatic is in my head.
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade, you make the change
You re-arrange me 'til I'm sane.
You lock the door
And throw away the key
There's someone in my head but it's not me.

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear.
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.

2340. Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams criticizes popular atheist writers

Comment #80526 by irate_atheist on October 22, 2007 at 4:07 am

Comment #80298 by Rayy

I have an Atheist friend who believes in the afterlife

2341. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #80514 by irate_atheist on October 22, 2007 at 3:13 am

re: Comment #80398 by bluejway

Precisely which data, events, and concepts are you referring to?

Having listed them, please then explain your reasoning. We can then we can have an open, reasonable, debate here.

We may well reach different conclusions, but the arguments will have been properly aired and discussed.

I look forward to this thread developing further.

2342. Egypt's fight against female circumcision clashes with tradition

Comment #80492 by irate_atheist on October 22, 2007 at 1:42 am

Ah, yes, tradition. The finest way of making decisions in the world, even the dead get their say.

2343. Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in them?

Comment #80107 by irate_atheist on October 20, 2007 at 2:21 am

Hello revcort -

Nice to see you're still trying to defend your own brand of (in)sanity.

2344. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #80100 by irate_atheist on October 20, 2007 at 1:06 am

If I may interject from the sidelines:

Comment #80097 by bluejway -

As I've written, I totally respect atheism as a belief system.

2345. God's honest truth?

Comment #79895 by irate_atheist on October 19, 2007 at 1:37 am

Oh, how I wish I were Swedish.

2346. Debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #79630 by irate_atheist on October 18, 2007 at 1:46 am

Comment #79613 by Dianelos Georgoudis

Well I don't know it in the same sense that I know about things I have already experienced.

2347. Help Counter the New Atheist Crusade to 'Evangelize' America!

Comment #79623 by irate_atheist on October 18, 2007 at 1:29 am

Insert comment here:


********************

2348. Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams criticizes popular atheist writers

Comment #78810 by irate_atheist on October 15, 2007 at 1:44 am

Rowan Williams -

Such a shame he has to subsist on a mere £67790 a year (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1951072.ece).

Or, in other terms, 2.9 times the national average salary (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285).

Not bad money for propping up an ancient blood sacrifice cult.

Now, what was it about camels and needles, Dr. Williams?

2349. Richard Dawkins receives the Deschner Prize

Comment #78806 by irate_atheist on October 15, 2007 at 1:29 am

Superb. Congratulations Prof. Dawkins. Please keep up the good work.

2350. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #78456 by irate_atheist on October 13, 2007 at 1:32 am

Please don't tell me that people are still posting on this thread.