201. Allan Gregg interviews Richard Dawkins

Comment #87313 by Vinelectric on November 11, 2007 at 7:30 pm

A carzy old man wrote

As Hitchens has put it so succinctly: "The world looks as it would look if there were no God."

Hitchens was echoing Stegner.

202. The Transcendental Argument for God

Comment #87284 by Vinelectric on November 11, 2007 at 4:48 pm

The distinction between those two types of reality comes across as superfluous to me.

Or it could just be that the example of Light vs waves is confusing. The bottom line is that that form of energy is demonstrably real as long as one accepts that different observers will perceive it differently.

203. Allan Gregg interviews Richard Dawkins

Comment #87229 by Vinelectric on November 11, 2007 at 2:35 pm

Appliedmootist

The Judaeo-Christian-Muslim god apparently has a comprehensive list of attribtues that one may ascribe to a deity including the creation of existence itself.

It makes no sense to limit Stegner's work to the Abrahamic god as a special case because that figure is all inclusive. If you think you can disprove that deity then there's little else to do but uphold the Atheistic position.

In fact the most interesting chapters of Stegner's are those dealing with the question of how something can arise out of nothing. What else is there to worry about if you can figure that out?

204. The truth in religion

Comment #84899 by Vinelectric on November 4, 2007 at 5:35 am

Muhammed (circa: 570 to 632 CE) is known to have drawn on Christian theology and Judeo theology in making up his own theological teachings

Muslims view their religion as a continuation of an evolving but consistent theme of revelation, several installmnets of a single message handed down to all cultures throughout history. They claim that the theolgoy was corrupted by successive generations and that is why a new wise man was sent to renew the message every so often.

Thus the "plagiarism" charge will not work. Any concordance with eariler religious systems is further evidence that these teachings originate from a single source. See what I mean? If you point out that theologies vary wildly between cultures they'll say: but of course, that's why several attempts were made to correct that through Jesus, Moses...etc.

And by the way another argument that won't work is the "How can a merciful God does this and does that". They don't believe in a nice god. They believe in a god that "can" and "will" if you don't follow and doesn't mind feeding his evil masterpiece (hell) with some unsuspecting humans. In fact the Quran suggests that that has to happen anyway as this is the main source of fuel for Hell.

Twisted and wicked, don't you think?

A pure charlatan and an megalomaniac to boot with his overweening impression of his place in the (any) scheme of things.

Excessive grandiosity definitely indicates some form of mental dysfunction. As a combatant and leader he definitely had skills, otherwise who would have thought that a backwardly desert tribe would swerve past Africa and into Europe and the far East?
That all happened against a background of torture and persecution of (his followers) by the surrounding tribes. That kind of determination would outsize your description of a "pure charlatan".

205. Huge Black Holes May Hold Keys to Galaxy Formation

Comment #84581 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 3:21 pm

OK you seem much more informed on the subject than I am so I withdraw my last comment!!

206. Huge Black Holes May Hold Keys to Galaxy Formation

Comment #84579 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 3:16 pm

I get you this time. I just find the concept of "nothingness" unfathomable and thus I can't persuade myself to appeal to its non-existent properties to help me understand anything about the observable universe. If I do then I'm automatically assuming that "nothing" is a "thing" which bears some form of meaning, which of course it doesn't by definition.

Why not write to Vic Stegner? His "Comprehensible Cosmos" and its discussion of the independence of material properties (including time) to the materials themselves is relevant to your reasoning.

207. Huge Black Holes May Hold Keys to Galaxy Formation

Comment #84565 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 1:31 pm

By the way, if "nothingness" has no scale then you can't even begin to say universes and atoms are the same even if we try to imagine a point of view independent of reality itself as you were trying to demonstrate. If you let go of the scales of comparison, you lose the right to compare anything whatsoever and at any level.

Thus the statement: "nothingness is indifferent to scale" is valid but you can't use this to drive any conclusions to the only observable universe we have where size, for example, does matter.

With "nothing" being such a useless and absurd concept you may want to take your last paragraph to the drawing board and try to refine the argument as to why existence would be timeless.

208. Huge Black Holes May Hold Keys to Galaxy Formation

Comment #84563 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 1:20 pm

Aquilacane, if time were an illusion then what are we referring to when we talk about increasing entropy? Furthermore, untill the space-time fabric model of Einstein is superceeded by a reliable model then we should accept time as an aspect of reality.


However the concept of time being an illusion is definitely not new and dare I say not all that counter intuitive, certainly not to those without scientific training. I remember my father pointing out a (believe it or not) religious text where a man asks a certain Imam to explain how come people will be rewarded or punished for eternity with no bounding limit.

The Imam (the founder of the Shia sect) responded by saying that if the sun didn't rise and fall every day we would have no concept of time. I seemed to accept the logic instantly and for many years later.

The story is retold slightly differently when some anonymous figure asks the same Imam how God can know the past and the future and the reply being that all existence is one instant and time was a 'creation' of God.

So you see my dear Aquilacane, challenging the concept of time seems to be more philosophy and idle conjecture than true science!

209. What the New Atheists Don't See

Comment #84502 by Vinelectric on November 2, 2007 at 7:32 am

(Michel Onfray) says on its second page that religion prevents mankind from facing up to "reality in all its naked cruelty." But how can reality have any moral quality without having an immanent or transcendent purpose?

I've always thought that the reason why such language is used is to argue against the morality of whatever transcendent being there is. That being can not be the source of morality for, even if we assumed its presence (e.g Nature), then the fact that we find ourselves constantly struggling against the odds of death and destruction is a point to be taken against theism.

210. Lessons in hate found at leading mosques

Comment #83808 by Vinelectric on October 31, 2007 at 10:57 am

It's actually a minor law of sociology. Ever collection of incompetent tosspots has always had it in for the jews. Dunno why. It's just the way things seem to turn out.l

The Lebanese were probably referring to their neighbours the Israelis and they have every right to despise them.

C'mon, do you expect to rape the geography of an already turbulent region with a racist Jewish state AND claim the two million or so refugees who were torn off their homelands never existed and expect to be loved and respected?

No. These are the guys that killed 90% of the Jewish population of that region during the Second World War, allied with Hitler via the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and formed the Handscharr SS division.

What is wrong with your head? Did they all individually pledge allegiance to the grand mufti? Did they all individually participate in killing the Jews in that area?

211. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #83608 by Vinelectric on October 30, 2007 at 3:57 pm

Annabanana

Brian's doing a good job by engaging the morbidly agitated Fanusi. It's good to see the latter refrain from articulating his genocidal fantasies.

Anyhow the same report that Fanusi often misquotes (overall 28% of British muslims prefer to live under sharia law) also says the following:

59% feel they have as much, if not more, in common with non-Muslims in the UK as with Muslims abroad.

21% have consumed alcohol. 65% have paid interest on a normal mortgage. 19 % have gambled. 9 % have admitted to taking drugs.

Do you expect that mouthful but practically watered down version of Islam to pose a serious threat to Europe? Maybe Sam Harris has a point, the danger is that the moderate majority would continue to foster extremists. But have you seen the Muslim Council of Britain's recent newspaper statements condeming terrorism or have you witnessed ex-Hizbut Tahrir activistis sharing information on public television in the UK?

Lend no ears to the twisted right wing propaganda.

http://www.eukn.org/eukn/themes/Urban_Policy/Social_inclusion_and_integration/Integration_of_social_groups/living-apart-together_1115.html

212. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #83286 by Vinelectric on October 29, 2007 at 2:00 pm

He merely points out how the Qur'an has been traditionally interpreted with the aid of the Hadith and Sira

Of course you should. How else would you understand the context of the passages? That Spencer is an outrage.

213. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #83277 by Vinelectric on October 29, 2007 at 1:40 pm

What is the 'best' in Islam? What is there of conceivable value that we could gain from this culture?

Book yourself a holiday in the Emirates, Tunisia or Egypt. Enjoy the hospitality.


.

214. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #83274 by Vinelectric on October 29, 2007 at 1:36 pm

Second of all, if you read Ibn Warraq on this subject, you find that the treatment of women in pre-Islamic Arabia was alot better.

True, babygirls were buried alive.

.

215. AAI 07

Comment #83232 by Vinelectric on October 29, 2007 at 11:19 am

steve

I lost the thread where you talked about Vic Stegner's book. If you haven't read it then please do. It is reasonably well referrenced. I don't know what Martin Reece has to say about the man's ideas but he'd better be as skilled as Stegner at presenting his case!

216. Don't write off religion - it can be the key to a stable family

Comment #82638 by Vinelectric on October 27, 2007 at 4:19 am

On family ties:

The author has a valid point here and I have consistently oberved that the more religious members of my family tend to encourage stronger family ties more often than the non religious.

However I also note that these values and traditions seem to be applicable only within the confines of one's community of faithful believers and not necessarily to the 'others'. Remember that even the Mafia gangsters seem to revere their family ties. This is where it all goes wrong. Despite its success in engendeing a well-knit subcommunity, religion also serves to drive rifts among society in general.

217. Don't write off religion - it can be the key to a stable family

Comment #82633 by Vinelectric on October 27, 2007 at 3:46 am

Anne Karpf on Dawkins:

Where does the fellow live?

Believers living in the West tend to follow milder and more humanistic versions of their belief systems. This contrasts with the practises of faithfull communities in the world at large (especially the developing world/middle east). It's for this reason that Dawkins' views are very much relevant.

218. Arguments From Design, First Cause, Something Rather Than Nothing, Fundamental Constants

Comment #82012 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 2:27 pm

According to many models of physical reality, the constants DO vary.

Good, so it is incorrect to talk about 'constants' to begin with if they do (?can) vary. Did I read you correctly?

219. Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?

Comment #81921 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 11:56 am

All a woman needs to do is carry a gun. Then shoot the next fanatic who assaults her

Take the law into your own hands and you end up where Iraq has. No sane person would discourage people from defending themselves but the reason laws exist is that people tend to have varying definitions of what constitues a retaliable "assault". This is espcially true of those with volatile tempers.

Sorry mate, but better keep your hollywood style justice to yourselves.

220. Arguments From Design, First Cause, Something Rather Than Nothing, Fundamental Constants

Comment #81915 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 11:41 am

Argument from design

Compares apples with oranges.

221. Arguments From Design, First Cause, Something Rather Than Nothing, Fundamental Constants

Comment #81912 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 11:35 am

Fine tuning:

Unless it could be demonstrated that the universal constants can be varied in any way then the suggestion that they can is pure metaphysics.

222. Arguments From Design, First Cause, Something Rather Than Nothing, Fundamental Constants

Comment #81908 by Vinelectric on October 25, 2007 at 11:33 am

Something rather than nothing:

The presmuption is that nothingness is the default position. This comes not from observation but from claims made by religious holy books.

Stegner writes well on the topic. What do you mean by "Nothing"? Any description to nothingness makes it "something". However if nothing is meant to describe an absolute vaccum (something not observed in the universe) then Stegner explains how such a vaccum would be too unstable not to break its own symmetry and disintegrate into some form of energy.

223. You can't be moral without God!

Comment #81283 by Vinelectric on October 24, 2007 at 2:30 pm

Secular humanism tanscends biblical/Koranic morality judged against the standard of morality of the books themselves.

Bible condones slavery and inferior rights to women, which contradicts "all men are equal". The Koran prescribes eternal punishment for those who choose non belirf which contradicts "God is the most merciful being/Humans are free to choose what to believe"...etc.

224. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. were atheists, and they were terrible! Answer that!

Comment #81274 by Vinelectric on October 24, 2007 at 2:21 pm

Atheism is too narrow a context to include Totalitarians-psychopaths and humanists in the same bowl.

Atheists have nothing to answer for.

225. Debate between Michael Shermer and Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #80393 by Vinelectric on October 21, 2007 at 3:56 pm

Good debate. Both men well spoken. Worlds apart from the cheap show put up by Lennox, don't you think?

226. Interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #80388 by Vinelectric on October 21, 2007 at 3:36 pm

why so many people who wanted UN resolutions to support the invasion and now complaining about an occupation that is supported by just such resolutions

It's because we now know that the political temper back then was the result of an overestimation of Saddam's military threat and that the likes of Hitchens have nothing but short-sightedness to justify their arrogance.

Furthermore a state of anarchy was induced by the almost instantaneous dissolution of the local law enforcement establishments. I don't know if that was supported by the UN.

227. Christopher Hitchens at AAI 07

Comment #80200 by Vinelectric on October 20, 2007 at 4:26 pm

Further to Riley's criticism I may add that Hitchens' challenge is unlikely to raise any eyebrows among the followers of Islam.

The Qur'an talks about non-believers who do all sorts of good and virteous deeds. According to the book, God even gives them an appropriate reward on Earth only to 'KICK THE SHIT OUT OF THEM' (to paraphrase a famous sketch) in the hereafter.

So that effectively narrows Hitchen's audience to theists who insist that God is the source of all morality. It seems that the majority of Christians do.

228. Muslims tell Christians: 'Make peace with us or survival of world is at stake'

Comment #78906 by Vinelectric on October 15, 2007 at 10:44 am

Fanusi Khiyal wrote

I will not say that Christianity and Christians today are an evil on a par with that of Islam. That is a monstrous injustice, and I will have no part of it.

Nice and sweet aren't they? Well according to them you'll burn forever in a masterpiece of sheer evil.

... and then they can enjoy visiting a radioactive crater where Mecca used to be.

Group punishment is wrong, for obvious reasons. I would like to imagine that the modern Atheist movement in the West is twinned to secular Humanistic values. Mass genocide is out of the question.

229. Muslims tell Christians: 'Make peace with us or survival of world is at stake'

Comment #78296 by Vinelectric on October 12, 2007 at 11:34 am

Fanusi

all this bull about talking to Islam aside, has only gotten us more and more radicals, more and more oppression, more and more jihadis, more and more subjugation, misery, and evil.

What is the clever alternative that you suggest? Give it a clear thought before your next bout of silly explosive rants.

230. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #78005 by Vinelectric on October 11, 2007 at 1:03 pm

Underpants

Thanks for the clarification.

231. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77764 by Vinelectric on October 10, 2007 at 12:31 pm

Underpants:

Experience has shown that being extra-nice to muslims in the hope that they won't blow us up is not a useful approach.

Shocking !!

No sir, you werent' been nice to the muslim terrorists. You were just acting responsibly and in a prinicpled and civilized manner to the majority of the law abiding community.

Can't think of an easy way out of Islamic fundamentalism but the only way through to the terrorists is through the community that fosters them. Common sense, really. What are you trying to achieve by lumping them all together? Irresponsible and foolish comment.

Tell you what, why not just try a Holocuast next. If lumping together is the moral level at which your policy operates.

232. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77696 by Vinelectric on October 10, 2007 at 7:50 am

Jonathan Dore: look up paragraph 7 of the GMC's good medical practise. This was last updated in2006:

http://www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/good_medical_practice/index.asp

Here's an excerpt:

You must treat your patients with respect whatever their life choices and beliefs. You must not unfairly discriminate against them by allowing your personal views* to affect adversely your professional relationship with them or the treatment you provide or arrange. You should challenge colleagues if their behaviour does not comply with this guidance.

Philip 1978: I was refferring to the public opinion against the overwhelming majority of decent law abiding muslims. The national front are growing strong round where I live. I've seen and heard with my own eyes patients threatening to kill and refuse treatment by foreigner/black/muslim doctors. That was before Glasgow and 7/7. It seems that the BNP and the terrorists are coming from the same direction. I don't think we should be complacent on either.

233. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77692 by Vinelectric on October 10, 2007 at 7:29 am

Maybe the Times are following in the Telegraph's line and making things up. Or maybe they learned of the GMC and BMA's positions by sheer intuition.

Keep Googling my friend.

234. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77687 by Vinelectric on October 10, 2007 at 7:07 am

Junklight

So what - we just turn a blind eye....

No, just suck up to the paranoia. Here's an excerpt from the story as it appeared on the Times:

The religious objections by students have been confirmed by the British Medical Association (BMA) and General Medical Council (GMC), which both stressed that they did not approve of such actions.

The regulating bodies are aware of these rarities and have issued the appropriate policy statements. You'd think the Telegraph would mention that or, better still, MOVE ON..!

But of course the cheap frauds can't get their hands of agitating public opinion with their nifty little piece on the angelic muslim doctor from long ago or whatever the writer was on about. Still don't know where I'm coming from? Just read the comments that followed. Nick started compiling an international list of muslim trained doctors-turned-terrorists (yeah, maybe it's not a limited phoenomenon afterall). Someone else started a full blown attack on muslims in general (nickthelight: Muslims are intolerant full stop.)

Aha, there you go, in a country troubled by muslim terrorism what can be better than fuelling up public tension?

235. If Muslim doctors are intolerant, let them go

Comment #77493 by Vinelectric on October 9, 2007 at 12:22 pm

that this is not a large group.....

A friend of mine recently went to a wine warehouse......

Other Muslim students are refusing to examine female bodies and still more, working in high street pharmacies, refuse....

This man sounds like he did some serious research on the sources before he farted out this masterpiece of journalism.

But I'm afraid the actions of this small group of Muslim medics are playing right into the hands of those who want to see Islam as a fundamentally life-hating, reality-hating theocracy.

Journalists alway give themselves away when they 'emphasize' that it is only a 'small group of Muslims' who are causing all the trouble. As employees of the NHS we hear about these oddities like other people do: fromt the loud mouths of the well meaning journalists.

Typical Daily Telegraph scum.

236. Debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #76836 by Vinelectric on October 7, 2007 at 12:34 pm

Thanks for your reply, but I think you're addressing a point I never made.


I am in total agreement with you and Sam Harris on the apparently peaceful nature of the Amish community. I specifically boxed your second comment (on the greed for power) instead. Then I gave two examples on how the community organizes itself in a manner that serves nothing but its own interests. Of course I forgot to mention the racial segregation.

I would even suggest that denying their children full education and the backwardly ways in which they raise them amounts to child abuse. However that's much more subtle than murderous tendencies but you seem only impressed when the damage gets to that level.

237. Debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #76758 by Vinelectric on October 7, 2007 at 6:06 am

How many people do you know who were successfully raised in the Amish religion and are now after power?

How many Amish do you know anyway?

It's still an ideology constructed on a morally corrupt book and secludes itself from interacting with manistream society. Now that is worrying in itself. They don't even join the army. Even muslims join the British and American armies. The emergence of psycopathic traits within this community is a matter of time. There just arent' enough of them yet.

I know what you're getting at but I just have little respect for the Amish.

238. Debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox

Comment #76757 by Vinelectric on October 7, 2007 at 5:48 am

Teratornis wrote:

We've seen what atheism can do, or rather, what atheism by itself failed to prevent.

Buddhism is strictly non theistic too. However its consequences are drastically different.

Sam Harris makes sense to me now. Atheism is such a useless tag. It says very little about one's worldview. Once you clear your mind of all supernatural persuasions you suddenly realise that, since the concept of a deity makes little sense, the term 'atheism' itself becomes something of an absurdity. Worse still, every time the term is used we automatically pay respect to to theism by characterising our worldview in its light.

So what is it exactly that atheists have in common with Stalin or Pol Pot to allow for any comparison whatsoever? Very little. RD made the point when Lennox asked him whether he 'believed in Atheism'. I hope the theists among the audience understood where RD was coming from.

Isn't it our adherence to secular humanistic values that clearly and consistently defines our moral standards? This should help keep the theists in check whenever they feel the urge to invoke the irrelevant Pol Pot/Stalin stories.

239. Teachers 'fear evolution lessons'

Comment #76344 by Vinelectric on October 5, 2007 at 3:12 pm

some teachers, fearful of entering the debate, avoid the subject totally

Rubbish. The school curricula are there to be adhered to and the teachers don't have the option not to conform to them.

240. Why Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously

Comment #74503 by Vinelectric on September 29, 2007 at 7:22 am

3) the existence of morality (which evidence he (Dawkins) completely misunderstood – more about this, maybe, later)

In fact the undoing of any argument for God lies in the base moral level exhibited by the biblical narrative. Of course this wouldn't exclude the possibility of an evil deity. However that thing wouldn't resmeble the just and loving father preached by Christian ministers.

241. Why Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously

Comment #74449 by Vinelectric on September 28, 2007 at 11:32 pm

...and even those theists who believe that God interferes today with the natural order believe God only very rarely does so. Dianelos

That doesn't sound right at all. You maybe referring to miracles but nevertheless we are persuaded to believe that the natural order itself is sustained by and is a manifestation of the divine wisdom. Somehow.

Question-begging is considered therefore a logical fallacy, and is a fallacy very easy to commit because a premise can entail the conclusion in a way that is not at all apparent. Dianelos

This would equally apply whenever theists ask: what could have created the universe, where do we get our consciousness from (not 'how'), who gives us our moral values....etc. The presumption is that the existence of these phoenomena is intricately linked to a driving agent. You're already suggesting an answer to these fundamental questions. That is why theism is false at its core.


Here Dianelos is quick to link consciousness with the existence of God. It doesn't, unless you smuggle your conclusion in there somehow.

Something as profound and elemental as God should readily be observable beyond any doubt. Is that too much to ask? However it is that 'Divine hiddeness' which shamelessly betrays the theistic cause.

242. Why Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously

Comment #74145 by Vinelectric on September 27, 2007 at 11:56 am

Dianelos

Before theists concern themselves with the dreadful outcome that awaits non-believers in the afterlife, they (including yourself) should stop and reflect on one of the basic tenets of the faith viz. belief in an afterlife. In the absence of evidence it would be fair enough to label that as "wishfull thinking".

That would also apply to your protracted discussions on how god would relate to physical laws and human logic. Without presenting evidence in support of the existence of god it would be entirely inappropriate to elaborate on your views on any of its properties or attributes.

If you've addressed this issue before I apologise.

243. Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in them?

Comment #73802 by Vinelectric on September 26, 2007 at 8:19 am

Dearest Corylus....

I am forver indebted to you for that "Jesus He Knows Me" link. Phill Collins is a genuis (I'm sure it was his effort!).

Believe it or not this this the first time I've heard the song in full. The tunes struck the right chords with me many years ago when it was first released on the radio. As a devout muslim I used so much will power to suppress the urge to listen to the song. I just heard the words "jesus something something" and immediately turned away from that "contemptible christian blasphemy" !!!

Now I can enjoy my favourite band without pointless prejudices. Thank God for your messages (wink wink) !!

244. The Saudi connection that belittles Britain

Comment #73540 by Vinelectric on September 25, 2007 at 8:08 am

That's politics for you, the survival of the smartest. If it is in the interest of the British economy to do business with the Saudis then all we need is for the smart-ass big mouths to shut up and look at yet a bigger picture than their god-forsaken ideals.

Moreover, according to the reporting Channel 4 political analyst, it is in the interest of the Americans to upgrade the Saudi army lest it be overwhelmed by an Iranian strike.

By the way, the Saudis have always responded in a small way to Western pressure. Bin Laden was "excommunicated" and expelled several years ago, the violent Quranic passages removed from the school curricula and the clerics were instructed to refer to the Hamas bombers as suicidal acts and not as acts of martyrdom like the rest of the muslim world does.

You may not be impressed but that's quite a bit for the Saudis. Be optimistic. If you expect much more very soon then you should just come down to earth for a minute.

245. India to charge writer Nasreen with 'hurting Muslim feelings'

Comment #67572 by Vinelectric on September 3, 2007 at 8:41 pm

The world would be so much better off without the Muslim religion.

First, we need a new conscience raiser - "The religion of peace". Should be challenged whenever heard, with "Muslims are not peaceful.

Secondly, I think the very existance of Muslims is offensive.

There's a feeling in the muslim world that that has been the attitude all along, way before the emergence of the current wave of fudamentalism. There are several predominantely muslim countries where thousands of non-muslims/westerners are truly welcome: Malaysia, Morocco, Tunisia, Emirates, Qatar, Egypt, Jordan and other popular holiday destinations. To conclude that the millions of good people who inhabit these countries are as worthless as the irrresponsible mob who threw the flowers (!!) at the Bangladeshi writer probably says more about those who write such drivel than their victims.

246. Science and the Islamic World

Comment #62811 by Vinelectric on August 11, 2007 at 3:18 pm

Bonzai, an honest study of the history of science would stop at just recognising that the muslims have at one point contributed something useful and meaningful. Playing down the importance of that contribution is a sign of some pointless and dishonest agenda. Don't waste your time arguing with Giskard.

247. Science and the Islamic World

Comment #62809 by Vinelectric on August 11, 2007 at 3:14 pm

Fatalism and an orientation toward the past, they said, makes progress difficult and even undesirable.

Pretty muchs sums it all. The ingredients for intellectual erosion lies there; the vivid suggestion of an afterlife that makes people lose focus of their earthly existence and become obsessed with a hypothetical one.

248. Islamic Finance and Its Critics

Comment #62622 by Vinelectric on August 10, 2007 at 12:10 pm

They might as well sue the American government for its indirect ties to the extremists through their business partnerships with the Saudis.

249. Response to the God Delusion

Comment #58029 by Vinelectric on July 23, 2007 at 3:44 am

I have to say that the more I listen to Christian sermons the more I wish RD/CH would spend more time engaging with muslim apologists instead.

Whether it be the linguistic structure, numerology, quasi-scientific referrences or other arguments used to persuade people into believing the divinity of the Quran we are still some way ahead of the Judaeo-Christians. Even the theology sounds more 'intact'.

250. Response to the God Delusion

Comment #58028 by Vinelectric on July 23, 2007 at 3:34 am

On Genesis: the first two sentences have word counts as multiples of seven. But this does not hold true for the following verses and there are 143 of them.

Also the claim was made that the word 'God' was mentioned 35 times (a multiple of seven). I started counting the word 'Elohim' in Bere'shit (Genesis) but stopped counting at 37.