201. Seven new deadly sins: are you guilty?

Comment #141565 by SPS on March 10, 2008 at 4:31 pm

It's clear that as the church and religion (d)evolve an imaginary god holds a significant advantage over an actual god.
Speaking of sins, when would our Imaginary Friend be held accountable for:
1. Creating fallible humans.
2. Eternally punishing said humans for acting fallibly.

202. Crossing the Divide

Comment #139952 by SPS on March 6, 2008 at 7:44 pm

Rod,
You're hilarious! I always enjoy reading your posts.
Teratornis,
I very much agree with you in principle. Preferable choices can be made, but we can't entirely divorce action from intended or unintended consequence. And then we are left with the problem of what level of consequence is acceptable and to whom. I think the solution may lie in the effort to bring our intentions in line with our collective and individual desires, rather than giving up one side for the other.
Regarding the article, and the struggle to move away from creationist fables, I like this quote by Carl Sagan from his Cosmos series:

I saw east Africa and thought, "a few million years ago we humans took our first steps there. Our brains grew and changed. The old parts began to be guided by the new parts, and this made us human -- with compassion and foresight and reason. But, instead, we listened to that reptilian voice within us, counseling fear, territoriality and aggression. We accepted the products of science; we rejected its methods."

203. How to abandon your God

Comment #139367 by SPS on March 5, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Those whose beliefs were moderate enough to allow for changing from one religion to another may come to the conclusion that they needed neither. The required foundation of faith for religion may make it its own worst enemy, as it only requires that you believe this thing or that, rather than be convinced of this thing or that.

204. US Treaty with Tripoli

Comment #139211 by SPS on March 5, 2008 at 10:05 am

Hi, hungarianelephant. Thanks for your input. You are correct, and you make a very good point. I meant "necessity" in the loose sense of the word, not a necessity such as breathing. Sorry about the miscommunication. I meant something ingrained in many of our lives, which provides a utility of which there is no immediate and equally viable alternative. I wish there were, and I am for working toward that goal. I think about deaths caused by automobiles, and it does give me pause. I didn't intend my comment to come across as a 'cop out'. I think we can also say calling something a 'cop out' doesn't make it so. Thanks, again.

205. US Treaty with Tripoli

Comment #139057 by SPS on March 5, 2008 at 5:04 am

For me it's about necessity and purpose. Automobiles are built for a specific purpose - transportation. As they say, 'driving is a privilege, not a right'. They are, for now at least, largely an unfortunate necessity in modern society. Just as war may be (incorrectly)seen as necessary, it may not be prevented even knowing that there will be a cost to innocent lives, however unintentional. There are a number of things for which we don't have the 'freedom' to possess including explosives, armed aircraft, biochemical weapons, and so on. No doubt these things could be responsibly owned, though I am glad they are, in general, not owned by individuals. Guns, also purpose-built, are, for the most part, not a necessity in everyday life. I don't particularly oppose responsible gun ownership, and I can appreciate the spirit (for lack of a better word) in which the 2nd Amendment was written, but I don't see humanity making its way significantly into the future holding onto this notion, gun at the ready. I could be wrong.

206. US Treaty with Tripoli

Comment #138726 by SPS on March 4, 2008 at 6:22 pm

Here's an interesting article about the gun debate:
http://hamptonroads.com/2008/03/tech-massacre-only-heated-gun-debate-virginia

207. Fleas on the Horizon: In Defense of God

Comment #137986 by SPS on March 3, 2008 at 5:46 pm

Steve,
I can't wait to read your review.

I think there's something to be said for atheist spirituality of the non-fairytale variety, involving introspection, honest communication, and a positive attitude towards possibilities minus the dogma.

208. US Treaty with Tripoli

Comment #137052 by SPS on March 2, 2008 at 8:32 am

If all interest is only self-interest, essentially - winning, then what is there to discuss in the first place that shouldn't be viewed as serving personal agenda? I think people have different ideas about what is responsible. Some thinking it is responsible to have an armed citizenry, some thinking it is more responsible to be unarmed or move towards being unarmed. Personally, I would be less open and less likely to interact with a person who has shooting me as an available option. I'm all for self-reliance and independent thinking, but we cannot ignore what we want to be, and in what direction we want to head, as a society.

209. US Treaty with Tripoli

Comment #136534 by SPS on March 1, 2008 at 11:23 am

I just wanted to thank all the posters here. I feel enriched by reading points made by so many intelligent people.
I can see there are some situations when use of force is morally justified, even by firearm. However, I think the argument against guns is an argument for where we want to be as a society, rather than where we are now. In the same sense I hope we can rid ourselves of the ability/desire to annihilate ourselves on a global scale as well as on an individual scale.
I suppose I could buy a gun, and tell people I use it as bottle opener, or a bomb and exclaim its usefulness as a coffee table, but everyone would know that's not why I have it.
Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people.

210. America: slouching towards the Enlightenment

Comment #135295 by SPS on February 28, 2008 at 7:34 pm

I hope someday we can move beyond our categories, and get on with being people. Atheism seems the surest path to unity without sacrificing diversity and openness. Religion only puts us at odds with our perceptions and finer instincts. It doesn't broaden them, but narrows them to the point of suffocation. Our experiences needn't border us from each other by dictate. If we're to accept religion for our moral guide then the degree of our separation is only limited by our imaginations. If lasting understanding is to exist we have to be willing to look beyond the filter of religion.

211. Earth's Final Sunset Predicted

Comment #135197 by SPS on February 28, 2008 at 5:19 pm

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

212. Earth's Final Sunset Predicted

Comment #135156 by SPS on February 28, 2008 at 3:38 pm

I am totally moving in a billion years.

213. Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

Comment #134975 by SPS on February 28, 2008 at 12:21 pm

If you can change "the theological foundations of [the] religion", did it ever have a foundation in the first place, and why would it after the change is made? When your religion is changed from under you how can you avoid feeling like a sheep lead around by not-so-divine forces? This may be good news in some sense, but a reformation of principles based on myth is a bit lacking.

214. Pakistan blocks YouTube over blasphemous video

Comment #133341 by SPS on February 26, 2008 at 5:03 am

It may help those trying to access blocked sites by using Tor in conjunction with Torbutton available with Firefox as an option during installation of Tor.

215. Evidence can't shake your faith if your faith excludes it as evidence

Comment #132455 by SPS on February 24, 2008 at 7:11 pm

I saw this article a few days ago on scrippsnews.com and another site. I'll just post what I posted at scrippsnews:
Next time you go to the pharmacist for a prescription ask for something he/she 'has faith' will work. See how far you get in life when you live thinking what you believe is just as good as evidence and real knowledge. Oh, and say 'hi' to Santa Claus for me.

216. The coming religious peace

Comment #132122 by SPS on February 24, 2008 at 9:02 am

I think the catchphrase idea was brought up by Dan Dennett in the Four Horsemen video.
How about:
'Would you rather cross a bridge built on faith or science?'
or
'God?...convince me like it's Judgment Day.'
or
'God is my mechanic...that's why I died in a car crash.'
Maybe there should be a separate forum for this kind of thing. There should also be a forum similar to 'Debate Points', or maybe added to Debate Points to answer the arguments posed by the more effective theist debaters/authors.

217. The coming religious peace

Comment #131957 by SPS on February 23, 2008 at 5:12 pm

Another interesting graph:

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9234/occamsrazorbu0.jpg

218. Bart Ehrman, Questioning Religion on Why We Suffer

Comment #130705 by SPS on February 21, 2008 at 7:16 am

If a deity doesn't need to experience suffering to be perfect, then why should his/her/its creation need to?

219. Fleabytes

Comment #129977 by SPS on February 19, 2008 at 8:44 pm

Well worth the time it took to read! Thanks, Paula!

220. Why do we believe in God? 2m study prays for answer

Comment #129432 by SPS on February 19, 2008 at 6:05 am

My guess is that we want a sense of certainty about the unknown borne out of fear. We know life. We don't know death. We know now. We don't know later. We know we don't know. We project our own qualities and experiences and relate them to an afterlife and the qualities of a creator. As our knowledge and experience grows there is less of this fear of uncertainty, and less need to depend on a divine rescuer.

221. Potentially Habitable Planets Are Common, Study Says

Comment #129204 by SPS on February 18, 2008 at 9:19 pm

It could be that we'll find signs of extraterrestrial intelligence by way of the Allen Telescope Array before finding life within our own solar system. Either way, it's somehow encouraging to think that we may not be alone even if our closest neighbors turn out to be bacteria.

222. Bill Moyers Interviews Susan Jacoby

Comment #129001 by SPS on February 18, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Good interview. I think she's right. People do have a responsibility to themselves, their children, and each other, as well as future generations to know about some of the important issues. I know many people have little time or energy to do this (and I am not convinced this is entirely coincidence), and I count myself among them, but we do dedicate time to entertainment and the like without giving equal time to important issues of the day. We have no way to question our leaders, or those of an expert opinion if we have no facility to question or think for ourselves. I think the American right, in particular, does use language as a tool of manipulation, and it is correct to say that certain words come with an emotional association attached to them. If you hear about something called the Patriot Act, and know nothing about it, how can you oppose it when taken at face value in the most superficial sense? The media also fails the public when it does not ask tough questions. They are too worried about offending this group or that, or losing this sponsor or that. The media is largely for-profit and has to be careful of whose sensibilities might be hurt. The compromise is we don't get a lot of the information we should from the sources we rely on most. When this is the case, we have little choice but to educate ourselves, or be lead blindly down a path not of our choosing.

223. Machines 'to match man by 2029'

Comment #128508 by SPS on February 17, 2008 at 9:08 am

The prospect of artificial intelligence and enhancing ourselves is exciting, but I hope these advancements wouldn't just be made available to the privileged.

224. The argument from oranges

Comment #128257 by SPS on February 16, 2008 at 4:08 pm

Wow. He should really do a tour of universities with this stuff. But, we all know Big Produce won't allow it.

225. The Search for Truth, God and Braver Scientists in 'Expelled'

Comment #128189 by SPS on February 16, 2008 at 12:40 pm

How do you get answers? By searching for them.
How do you not find answers? By thinking you already have them.
ID is not about finding answers, therefore it never was and never will be science, and adds exactly nothing to human endeavor, when it's not busy taking away from it.

226. The Dog Allusion

Comment #128170 by SPS on February 16, 2008 at 12:03 pm

The difference between dog and god for me is that I still talk to my dog and am relatively sure he exists.

227. A match made on RichardDawkins.net?

Comment #128157 by SPS on February 16, 2008 at 11:26 am

That's great! I'm happy for you both.

228. Dumb and Dumber: Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge?

Comment #127864 by SPS on February 15, 2008 at 5:01 pm

Fixed the link. Sorry about that.

229. Dumb and Dumber: Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge?

Comment #127852 by SPS on February 15, 2008 at 4:50 pm

A true communism, perhaps moderated by capitalist elements, would be my first approximation, but how to keep the corrupt and power-hungry from gravitating to the top and twisting it to their own benefit? That's the real question.

230. Dumb and Dumber: Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge?

Comment #127496 by SPS on February 15, 2008 at 10:49 am

Wealth and power have little to gain from a well-educated and empowered populace. Suspicion of power is a good thing like skepticism is a good thing. What do elite classes have to gain from public scrutiny and an open agenda seen by people who can do something about misuses and abuses of power? What is their advantage if they are not open, and when that populace is less empowered?
I've linked to this before, but it's worth a look, if only for its comic value. George Carlin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ4SSvVbhLw

231. Bill Maher on Larry King Live

Comment #125616 by SPS on February 11, 2008 at 5:36 pm

Good point, Steve. Though, now that I think about it, he may have been commenting about drugs of the more illegal sort.

232. Bill Maher on Larry King Live

Comment #125603 by SPS on February 11, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Really good clip! He has a talent for articulation.
I don't know too much about his thoughts on medicine, drugs, and the like. I do recall him saying in one of his shows on the topic of drugs something to the effect that it shouldn't be up to the government to tell us what we can put in our bodies.
While prescription drugs clearly have a positive impact on many people's lives I doubt the motivation of any pharmaceutical company has much to do in the way of helping humanity than it does in turning the largest profit possible. In recent months I saw a news program featuring a marketing company hired by pharmaceutical companies to come up with catchy names for symptoms which their drugs would treat (e.d.(erectile dysfunction), r.l.s.(restless leg syndrome), etc), in order to get people to ask their doctors about them. There's nothing wrong with treating symptoms, but I doubt they would be eager to give up their cash cows unless they can jump on a patent for a cure(s) or something. Even then, I'm sure they'd be running the numbers before pursuing one choice over another.

233. Charles Simonyi Professorship in the Public Understanding of Science

Comment #125221 by SPS on February 11, 2008 at 4:56 am

I hope we have many more years of Rawkin with Dawkins!

234. Sharia fiasco

Comment #125030 by SPS on February 10, 2008 at 6:36 pm

Tolerance can go a long way, but religion won't necessarily follow a trend towards moderation if some people have their way. The trick, I think, is balancing tolerance for others without sanctioning tyranny and terror towards the institutions that provide that tolerance.
There is room for both a direct approach and a tempered approach to opposition of religion. Personally, I enjoy them both. Which is more effective depends on the audience.
I like Carlin and Maher, too. Here's a couple links to two of my favorite George Carlin videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ4SSvVbhLw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

235. Richard Dawkins talks about The God Delusion

Comment #124435 by SPS on February 9, 2008 at 12:33 pm

@dkv/theists

And what would meaning mean to the eternal?

236. Why Darwin matters

Comment #124190 by SPS on February 8, 2008 at 4:10 pm

Darwin matters because he helped save us from ourselves...and because he can really pull off that hat.

237. The New Atheist Movement

Comment #123286 by SPS on February 6, 2008 at 8:12 pm

I have to admit, I've only read one book from the 'other side' - the bible.

Not to say the bible doesn't have literary value, but the comparison about reading this side or that is wrong. I would imagine not many chemists brush up on alchemy before formulating an opinion about it, either.

That whole part about meeting a professor on a plane seems a bit made up. Perhaps he can get some hints about lying from Dinesh D'Souza.

Maybe christians can take some advice from their own book before writing the next book passing their beliefs off as scientific or modern rational thought. Those who bother to read it, that is:

Revelation 22:18-19: For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. If any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city and from the things written in this book.

238. Richard Dawkins talks about The God Delusion

Comment #122949 by SPS on February 6, 2008 at 9:38 am

Well, how do you think Christians do it?

239. Richard Dawkins talks about The God Delusion

Comment #122792 by SPS on February 6, 2008 at 5:05 am

I think there should be a way for people to get a copy of TGD for free the way people can get a copy of the bible for free.

240. Exploding black holes could expose hidden dimensions

Comment #122686 by SPS on February 5, 2008 at 8:00 pm

Any research by honest scientific minds, in my opinion, comes with an air of excitement about the potential of their findings, whether or not their ideas or theories eventually pan out. I recently read about the Cyclic Universe model. Another interesting view of our universe.

241. God the psycho

Comment #121377 by SPS on February 3, 2008 at 10:19 am

That was great! I've thought much the same way for a long time now.

242. God vs. Gridiron

Comment #121359 by SPS on February 3, 2008 at 9:42 am

Having rules about screen size seems ridiculous. Like any rule in the for-profit world it probably finds its justification in money and profit. Sports can be fun. Going to a game can be fun. But, much like religion, pro-sports is over-hyped, over-funded, and over-emphasized in our society.

243. Morality and the 'new atheism'

Comment #121320 by SPS on February 3, 2008 at 8:15 am

I would say it's a safe bet that most atheists come from a religious background, and are familiar with its 'experiences'. Having these experiences isn't necessary to question their validity if the believer is claiming them as proof of something beyond their own emotional or cognitive experience. It's akin to saying a doctor must have every disease before he can treat them, or a lawyer has to have been a victim of every crime he intends to prosecute. This may add a level of empathy, but is also likely to add a level of bias. The emotional element may help in treating the patient but not the disease, may help motivate the prosecutor but provide no evidence for his case.

P.S. Steve Zara gets my vote for 5th Horseman.

244. Morality and the 'new atheism'

Comment #120591 by SPS on February 2, 2008 at 4:57 am

Awesome response, guys. I guess you could also say "if it looks like magic, then it must be magic if authority figures and a book tell me it's magic". I think when people reach out for god, they don't usually have a specific persona in mind. They are reaching out, in an emotional sense, to the unknown, where science reaches out, not to god, but to the unknown for truth through inquiry. I'm not a believer in or proponent of the supernatural, but even if there were the supernatural, wouldn't it as well be subject to rules and understanding, whether or not we currently have the knowledge or capacity to do so?

245. There Are No Ghosts in Your Brain

Comment #120478 by SPS on February 1, 2008 at 6:49 pm

Accountants? All the finest thinking points to gears, hamster wheel. The formula is G plus H=Brain. To think we used to believe it was accountants! How naive!

246. There Are No Ghosts in Your Brain

Comment #120431 by SPS on February 1, 2008 at 4:13 pm

Looks fascinating! So the brain isn't a series of gears attached to a hamster wheel???

247. Morality and the 'new atheism'

Comment #119590 by SPS on January 31, 2008 at 5:13 pm

Anyone who's gone to church for any length of time knows that the attendees generally are not any more moral for it, can be quite immoral, and seldom if ever does god-given morality come up in conversation. Knowledge of the bible by churchgoers is generally very little at best. This at least was my experience, and does not do much for the argument that religion/Christianity is needed for morality. There's an interesting article related to this post here:

From the Minds of Babes Come the Beginnings of Morals

248. Happy Birthday Josh Timonen!

Comment #119137 by SPS on January 31, 2008 at 10:42 am

Great work here! Happy Birthday, Josh!

249. MySpace: No place for Atheists?

Comment #118566 by SPS on January 30, 2008 at 7:04 pm

BaronOchs

beliefnet did host the Sam Harris/Andrew Sullivan debate and "Secular Philosophies" are included on their list of uhh "Faiths".

250. What should a scientist think about religion?

Comment #118462 by SPS on January 30, 2008 at 5:14 pm

This does not mean that scientists can't be religious. We can encompass irrational beliefs without regret and without obligation—I can, actually, look at my kids in a different way than I would an experimental subject under my microscope. I also do not pretend that I view my children rationally and objectively, untainted by emotion or history, and I'm not ashamed of that at all. So, a scientist should have no problem demanding one standard of logic and evidence in the lab, and dropping that demand when they go to church on Sunday.

Rational things, like facts and theories about objective and empirical subjects, can be known; only they can be known, and only they constitute knowledge. Nonrational things, like love, hope, taste, preference, desire, etc. are not 'knowledge' but are no less wonderful for it. Irrational things, like statements about unsubstantiated beings, forces, or dimensions, are not knowledge, have a high probability of being false, and give us no method of separating the true from the false. They susbsist on nothing but faith.