201. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #211582 by epeeist on July 16, 2008 at 7:26 am

Comment #211570 by Laurie Fraser

The "insane left"?

Aren't you one of those "commies" that Al and Fanusi are always going on about.

Sorry, make that "evil commies".

202. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211552 by epeeist on July 16, 2008 at 6:26 am

Comment #211499 by fides_et_ratio

That's rather dishonest. Jesus was telling a story, clearly. Not giving instructions as you suggest.

I see we are in to artful_dodger territory.

Some things in the bible are literal, others are metaphorical. How can you tell the difference? Well, the literal bits sound literal and the metaphorical bits sound metaphorical.

Alternatively - I am interpreting that bit as literal and that bit as metaphorical as it suits me.

203. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211466 by epeeist on July 16, 2008 at 3:48 am

Comment #211461 by Laurie Fraser

(Never had the experience of the Yorkshire brew; it's the best, is it? Probably can't get it here in the colonies.)

Tea isn't tea in Yorkshire unless you can stand your spoon up in it.

You can get it in Australia -

Harrogate Teas
8 Holland Street
Northgate
Brisbane
Queensland 4013

Contact: Philip Hayes
Tel: 61 7 3260 5588

Information from http://www.bettysandtaylors.co.uk/

204. MnIndy interview: Unrepentant science-heathen PZ Myers still intends to prove 'this cracker is nothing'

Comment #211457 by epeeist on July 16, 2008 at 3:23 am

Comment #211448 by Laurie Fraser

Oh
Tyler - don't tell me you've succumbed to the myth that Earl Grey is actually tea?

There is only Taylor's of Harrogate Yorkshire Tea. Everything else is heresy.

Oh, and that is leaf tea. No tea bags.

And damn all those schismatics who don't warm the pot first.

205. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211387 by epeeist on July 16, 2008 at 12:12 am

Comment #211379 by Brian English

I wonder if Joe will still be repeating the same inanities in a week?

Well, he lied about not coming back and posting and he has been repeating the same stupidities ever since he got here. A fairly good prediction I would have thought.

However, the more he posts the more he makes the argument for Fanusi and Al-Rawandi. We had bigots and rednecks when Vox Dei's book was (vanity) published and when "Expelled" came out but nothing quite as closed-minded as Joe has been posting.

Isn't it interesting that all these acolytes (of Vox Dei, Ben Stein and Harun Yahya) have uniformly shown themselves to be incapable of spelling, grammar or even using a keyboard properly. Never mind actually realising how to put an argument together or what evidence is.

206. Fury at funeral songs ban

Comment #211382 by epeeist on July 16, 2008 at 12:00 am

Comment #211185 by skeptictank

The priest was completely out of line, trying to use his untimely death for recruiting new catholics. He said things like "Nick was a good catholic, and its not too late for you all to be saved from the tortures of hell as he was".

Comment #211199 by Ian Bamlett

Are you serious?

I am sure he is absolutely serious.

I went to the funeral of my aunt, a devout catholic, last year. The priest behaved in exactly the way that skeptictank described. He read a standard eulogy in which it was obvious he was simply saying my aunt's name when the script had say name here in it.

I didn't leave since I didn't want to upset my relatives but to say I was furious would be and understatement.

207. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211378 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 11:49 pm

Comment #211079 by Brian English, Comment #211094 by Quetzalcoatl, Comment #211096 by al-rawandi

Guys - I agree with you about Kalam, and I am sure that had it been raised it would have been shot down without any problem.

What I was trying to point out was that it was actually an argument, which is more than Harun Yahya and the current set of buffoons invading the board have raised.

208. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211377 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 11:43 pm

Comment #211104 by Joe Morreale

As for the sites you have mentioned: I have made it clear many times that verbal acrobatics and distortions do not make for evidence unless you believe that false propaganda carries weight?

And so you are confirmed as the one book bigot that I claimed.

Not only are you as ignorant as the illiterate 7th century camel herder who you claim as prophet but by refusing to actually look at anything that might challenge your beliefs you show yourself to be a complete dogmatist.

Now I don't care how you do it - but are you actually going to attempt to answer Brian's question? Demonstrate the existence of your god without reference to your "holy book".

209. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211076 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Comment #211049 by Brian English

Joe, prove God exists. You cannot do this with the Quran as the Quran is just a book. First prove God exists.

You know all of these guys come here and claim that Harun Yahya is yet another Magnus Cephallicus and yet they can do is proselytise and quote mine.

Do you think they could actually understand something like the Kalam cosmological argument - http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2006/entries/cosmological-argument/#4

210. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #211065 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Comment #211044 by Joe Morreale

To eppeist,

Well, no caps but you can't spell my moniker correctly.

I am not going to go around in circles with you.
I have conclusively proven via the Qu'ran that God exists and that the Qu'ran is indeed his word.

Rubbish. You have two possibilities. Show that your god's existence is a necessary truth, or show some empirical evidence for the existence of your god. You have shown neither.

Hint - empirical truth does not mean to say something is mentioned in a holy book. This normally turns out to be some kind of circulus in demonstrando

Modern Science has shown at every level that the hypothetical first cell in "primordial soup", then species turning into different species, ape and then man is a myth and cannot be subtantiated by any evidence beyond speculation upon speculation based soley upon wishful-thinking sustained by propaganda (see darwinism-watch.com)

You might want to go away and actually read something on evolution and its corresponding theory. I usually advise people to read http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ or if this is too difficult then http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Main_Page

If you have a visual learning style then you might want to look at http://www.blinkx.com/video/evidence-for-evolution-part-iii/k40q0N45sxAGOVxFaq81UA

Once you have digested these then come back and say there is no evidence for evolution.

"The debt of our science does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutianary theories. Science owes a great deal more to the arab culture: IT OWES ITS EXISTANCE." " The Greeks systematised, generalised and theorised, but the patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute methods of science, detailed and prolonged observation, experimental enquiry, were altogether ALIEN TO THE GREEK TEMPERAMENT. What we call science today, arose in Europe as a result of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a FORM UNKNOWN TO GREEKS... THAT SPIRIT AND THESE METHODS WERE INTRODUCED INTO THE EUROPEAN WORLD BY THE ARABS."

Can you say Archimedes? Or Hero? Or Eratosthenes? How about Thales or Anaximander? How about Empedocles and Pythagoras?

All of these were doing practical science of some kind.

As I have said before - you are a one book bigot. One can be ignorant of things, but to purposely avoid remedying that ignorance shames you as a human being.

211. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210997 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 11:13 am

Comment #210990 by Joe Morreale

Despite not being admittedly as articulate as yourselves but more rustic ,it does not matter as i have nevertheless
delivered the truth and stirred your souls.

As was noted before in http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2833,UPDATED-Venomous-Snakes-Slippery-Eels-and-Harun-Yahya,Richard-Dawkins,page26#209431 you were blown completely out of the water. No alternative theory for evolution, no proof for the existence of god or whether a medieval camel herder had anything more than an epileptic fit. In any case unable to defend said camel herder against paedophilia. Unable to show that the Muslims of the middle ages did anything more than transmit knowledge that they acquired from Latin and Greek sources. Unable to defend against the fact that Muslim countries are in the main theocracies or dictatorships with poor health, wealth and education. Unable to argue against the fact that secular nations have much better civil rights and better economic prospects. Unable to defend the person whose bitch he is from the fact that he is a rapist and blackmailer.

212. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #210992 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 11:08 am

Comment #210974 by Steve Zara

OK then. You are simply brighter than the geologists and biologists. Brighter that James Watson. Brighter than Stephen J Gould. Brighter than Richard Dawkins, than John Maynard Smith. Brighter than .... hundreds of thousands of others.

You have to wonder about his other attributes. I mean if his brain is that big is it reflected in other organs, if you know what I mean ;-)

213. Lourdes fears priestly scandal will make profits dry up

Comment #210966 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 10:02 am

Comment #210928 by fides_et_ratio

My last experience of Lourdes was a few years ago when I was looking after a teenager with the mental age of a toddler.

Fides - for five years I coached a young lad with dyspraxia. For nearly all of that time I gave him virtually the same lesson each week because he was incapable of retaining even the simplest things and his lack of coordination would not allow him to do anything more complex than I was giving others after a month.

We both knew that he wouldn't get too far but we put in a lot of effort together to improve his coordination and memory skills.

Strangely enough your god didn't seem to want to help. It was the empathy between us and the corresponding work to understand his limitations and capabilities that seemed to do the most good.

214. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210962 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 9:55 am

Fanusi and Al - given the guy registered today I would think there is a reasonable probability of him being Joe.

This being so, I don't think the amount of patience shown the last time that one of these cretins appeared is required.

215. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210921 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 8:57 am

Comment #210904 by khanzee

WHY THEN DO YOU BELIEVE THE UNIVERSE CAME ABOUT BY CHANCE?

Oh look, somebody else with a stuck caps lock.

Khanzee we had a Muslim who came here and proceeded to proselytise, mostly with his caps lock on. When pressed on things like the theory of evolution, the existence of his god, the paedophilia of his prophet and the fact that he was a follower of someone who had been jailed for rape and embezzlement he was unable to offer any arguments. You can see the last of his efforts just before my lost post on the topic - http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2833,UPDATED-Venomous-Snakes-Slippery-Eels-and-Harun-Yahya,Richard-Dawkins,page26#209431

Now if you are going to claim that the universe was created by your particular god you are going to have some work to do, you are going to have to:

1. Establish the universe was created
2. Establish the creator was a deity
3. Establish that this deity is interventionist, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent
4. Establish that this deity is that of a small tribe in one particular area of a small planet circling a non-descript sun in a galaxy of 400 billion other suns, the galaxy being one of 150 billion others
5. Show that this was all documented in the holy book of a set of medieval or iron age primitives

If you can't show all this then don't expect us to take you too seriously. Especially if you can't even tell whether your caps lock is stuck.

216. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #210858 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 6:54 am

Comment #210854 by riandouglas

It's good to see this thread still going. Whats not so good is seeing that txpiper has not progressed in his knowledge of, well, anything.

When it comes to epistemology knowledge is defined as "justified, true belief".

All txpiper has got is the last word of the definition.

217. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #210828 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 6:08 am

Comment #210714 by The Reverend Dark

You are also a fucking liar. To whit from Christianinformant.

http://www.christianinformant.com/index.php/topic,1551.msg22756.html#msg22756

So this is why he posts here, so he can scuttle back to his mates and brag how he whupped our sorry arses.

You know I am really going to be amused come 2012 when the world ends. All those "Rapture Ready" Christians waiting for the second coming and who should turn up but Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca rather than Jebus.

218. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210809 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 5:13 am

Comment #210804 by Christopher Davis

Furthermore, I think most of the problems the U.S. has regarding guns could be dealt with through stricter enforcement of existing laws, the development of a few more restrictions, and education. Also we need to figure out a way to address our culture's fascination with firearms...and on this one I'm at a loss.

Unfortunately the last one is the most important.

We have a similar sort of problem with knife crime in the UK (though I suspect not as serious as the press has been hyping it up). There have been the usual "Hang them, flog them, put them in jail and throw away the key, national service" calls from the usual suspects, but while short term measures like stricter control and more immediate punishment will probably help it won't actually cure the problem.

For that a culture change is needed.

219. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210800 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 4:45 am

Comment #210794 by MPhil

Completely unrelated - but I thought I'd share some personal good news with fellow fans of classical music: Through a friend of my girlfriend's who works there, this Saturday I'll be at the Bayreuth Festspielhaus watching the dress rehearsal (much less noisy in the audience and altogether more relaxing) of this year's performance of Richard Wagner's "Walküre"

Bastard

...and I don't even have to pay anything.

Double bastard

Exits muttering expletives...

220. Pope confirms sexual abuse apology

Comment #210797 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 4:40 am

Comment #209716 by Laurie Fraser

Oh yeah, kaph - we're going to be arrested for the crime of "annoyance". That's why I hope as many of us as possible get arrested, because it deserves to be taken all the way to the High Court of Australia.

Not any more apparently - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/15/religion.catholicism

I expect to see pictures of you handing out condoms while wearing your "Jesus loves me, but I make him wear a condom" t-shirt ;-)

221. Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

Comment #210792 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 4:29 am

Comment #210782 by Broshiesq

You talk about Aus's low murders and low number of guns, but I could give you Switzerland, Finland, New Zealand and Israel as examples of other countries with high gun-ownership rates and low crime rates.

You might want to consider things like training in the use of guns in those countries and their culture.

222. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #210655 by epeeist on July 15, 2008 at 12:22 am

Comment #210588 by txpiper

You want to sneer at ID as not being science, but then you want a free pass to dismiss billions of temporal service problems with nothing but selection jargon.

There have been a number of philosophers of science who have tried to define demarcation criteria between science and non-science. A distillation of these might include:

1. Accuracy
2. Broadness of scope
3. Self-consistence and consistency with other theories
4. Parsimony
5. Fruitfulness in the generation of other research programmes
6. Testability
7. Falsifiability

Now I can see where the ToE fits in all of this. Would you care to show how ID fits the criteria. Certainly Michael Behe was unable to, he had to admit that any definition of science he could come up with that would allow ID would also admit astrology. And we all know that astrology is a pseudo-science (http://www.cavehill.uwi.edu/bnccde/PH29A/thagard.html).

However, you are obviously more informed than Behe. As well as being a better scientist than Hawking and Einstein I am sure that you are a better philosopher than Kuhn or Popper.

The amount of knowledge you seem to have absolutely amazes me.

223. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210409 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 1:28 pm

Comment #210404 by al-rawandi

Gold bars? Like solid, 24 ct. gold?

Absolutely. I don't know whether you have the equivalent of our motorway services. In the UK they tend to be fairly down market.

We took a party of boys skiing in Austria once and stopped at a service station just outside Zurich. Top quality restaurant and high class jewellers, the latter being the place you could buy gold.

Other total asides, this was before we moved and my wife started teaching in a girls' school.

She was the first female science teacher they had in the boys' schools since it opened in 1587. She was the first teacher ever to take maternity leave. The school headmaster at the time, one Albert Crosby, reckoned the school was going down the tubes since the number of boys the got who were over 200 pounds in weight and hence prime material for the rugby squad was much fewer than when he started teaching.

224. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210403 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 1:14 pm

Comment #210397 by al-rawandi

I would like to see the Swedish get involved, the Norwegians, the Swiss.

I don't know about the other Nordic countries, but the Finns are very proud of their peacekeeping efforts - http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/peace.html

Don't knock the Swiss. Their motorway service stations are the only ones I know where you can buy gold bars ;-)

225. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210392 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Comment #210384 by al-rawandi

You better get it together soon. You will soon be in missile range of several "unfriendly" groups and countries.

There is always NATO of course. This does have the unified command structure that is needed.

The problem is that it would seem that those who favour NATO are very much against an EU defence force.

226. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210377 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Comment #210343 by mordacious1

I'd like someone like the EU and the democratic Asian nations to spend more on their defense, so we can spend more of our money on ourselves.

The problem with the EU doing more with peace keeping is the same as the UN, you have to get agreement amongst all its member nations. Some of these are pro-American, some are anti-American, some are absolutely neutral, some have restrictions on what their troops can do, some countries don't like other countries, some want a more federal EU which would have a more unified defensive policy, others absolutely don't want this. And of course a number have client states from their former colonial days and don't want anyone to interfere.

Can you say herding cats?

227. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210352 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 10:17 am

Comment #210343 by mordacious1

To sum up: The U.S. tends to look after its own economic interests, duh?

Isn't this one of the major sources of the problem, that countries (all countries, not just the US) have interests and nothing more.

When Robin Cook was home secretary he talked of an "ethical foreign policy". The idea didn't last long. Anecdotal evidence points to Blair, the Ministry of Defence and Department of Trade and Industry. All of whom have significant connections with the defence industry (BAE in corruption scandal, who ever would have thought it?).

228. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210286 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 8:02 am

Comment #210265 by Fanusi Khiyal

Al What I am certain of is that I'm an anti-capitalist.

You can see where I draw my conclusions from.

And thereby committing the logical fallacy of bifurcation.

As I have said in previous posts my current views in politics have changed drastically from when I was younger. I can see the flaws in Marx's ideas now, I didn't have the breadth of knowledge when I was in my mid-teens to early twenties.

Does that mean that I think Marx was utterly, absolutely and 100% wrong? The answer to that would be no, his analysis of 19th century capitalism was pretty good, he has some interesting ideas on morality and a theory of justice.

229. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210240 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 6:26 am

Comment #210233 by al-rawandi

How did you purchase your home? Homes are expensive, and people need to borrow money to purchase them. Housing markets and prices are the result of a number of factors, don't simplify the issue.

You need to read Fanusi's posts. He was claiming that the whole of Europe was going to go bust very shortly due to the debt that we had incurred.

I was trying for an ironic tu quoque but I had forgotten that Americans don't do irony ;-)

230. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210238 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 6:22 am

Comment #210231 by al-rawandi

What do you suggest the government do? How much power should it have.

I think we have different attitude to government than you. We certainly distrust it, but we don't seem to have the fear of government that Americans seem to have.

How much power should it have? Very little, except in specific areas such as defence and foreign policy. Where things need to be driven from the centre it should be setting policy and pushing implementation further down the chain.

A couple of examples. It just so happens there is a programme on Clair Patterson on the radio later today. On the back of the science he did the EU decided to phase out lead in petrol, a good policy. They then mandated new technologies for car engines, a bad policy.

There is a push at the moment in the UK to increase recycling and minimise land fill. The policy comes from central government and is, I believe, a good policy. However, implementation is being devolved to local government rather than being centrally micro-managed.

Like you I don't like power blocs, which is why I am looking for a dynamic balance between forces. The thing that I really don't like is the collusion between power blocs. This isn't a socialist/communist thing unless you count Eisenhower as a socialist or communist.

231. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210230 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 5:58 am

. Comment #210229 by Fanusi Khiyal

while the only response from the commies is to vanish into fantasy realms of rationalizations and dogma, kind of torpedos your smugness about evidence

So which fucking commies are you referring to this time?

Talking of debt - do you have a mortgage with Fanny Mae or Freddie Mac? Shares in Anheuser-Busch?

232. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #210217 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 5:26 am

Comment #210177 by Fanusi Khiyal

What exactly is 'social capital' and who makes use of it?

I think our NZ friends have the best take on that:

"He aha te mea nui o te ao? "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata"

233. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #210143 by epeeist on July 14, 2008 at 2:29 am

Just as an aside - I wonder if this is how txp's god made DNA in the first place - http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/News/PressReleases/2008/DNASewingMachines.asp

234. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #209794 by epeeist on July 13, 2008 at 11:12 am

Comment #209770 by Scot Rafkin

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-floodwater.html

I like the way they blithely throw about megatonnes of material without considering the terawatts of energy that would be involved.

235. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #209658 by epeeist on July 13, 2008 at 12:17 am

Comment #209610 by Laurie Fraser

Ergo, we need government to provide the educational resources needed for the development of critical thinking - philosophy and science in schools should be mandatory and well-funded.

Hmmm...circular argument?

Replace "government" by "disinterested party" and I think you get closer.

The trouble then is the "disinterested party" and where they get their funding. Industry might fund it but they aren't disinterested, their approach would be training and not education. And they prefer to poach rather than train if they can.

The churches used to do it and still do it now, but they couple it with indoctrination.

The state does do it, but here in the UK they are not disinterested and they try to micro-manage (just about everything really).

The other thing of course is that education is not valued, but that's a debate for another time.

236. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #209483 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Comment #209473 by Fanusi Khiyal

Jiten, for a start.

So that would be a commie then? Even though he seems to agree with my position - http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2833,UPDATED-Venomous-Snakes-Slippery-Eels-and-Harun-Yahya,Richard-Dawkins,page26#209417 and, while I was a member of a Trotskyist party in my youth I would definitely count myself as a social democrat.

I don't think anyone is condemning capitalism out of hand, except possibly the laissez-faire capitalism of the 19th century.

What I think is being argued for is the best use of social capital and for that you need a healthy and well educated populace.

237. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #209472 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 11:30 am

Comment #209462 by Fanusi Khiyal

In any case, where's the contribution of these countries? Where did things like software, MRI scanners, silicon chips etc. come from? Uh-huh. They're just hitching a ride.

You are joking about software I presume.

The operating system that probably runs on your mobile phone is more than likely to be Symbian or Linux. The first was developed in the UK and is now owned by Nokia. The second was developed by a Finn, runs on everything from the smallest embedded systems up to over 90% of the world's most powerful computers (and is the major reason why Microsoft can no longer make any money on operating systems).

Semi-conductors were the product of a whole stack of people (http://www.semi1source.com/shof). You might want to look at a typical company and see where it does its research and manufacturing - http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/AboutAMD/0,,51_52_502,00.html

This sort of thing passes for dialogue amongst the commies.

I'll close on a simple observation: when I denounce communism everyone scrambles to justify it by reference to some fantasy world that has never existed and never will. When I praise capitalism, people try to denounce it by its failing, real or not (usually not), in fact and reality.

So which "commies" are these? All of the posters who have argued against you seem to be for a mixed economy. None of them seem to have argued that a Marxist system should or could be implemented.

EDIT: To add some information on debt by country in the same sort of vein as Phil Rimmer

http://indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?t=100&v=94

238. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #209432 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 7:43 am

Comment #209429 by Tezcatlipoca

Obviously doesn't read replies otherwise would have learned how to make pastes into CAPS...

Shall we add to the list of his inanities the fact that he doesn't know who Tezcatlipoca is or the fate that he might be risking?

239. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #209431 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 7:40 am

Comment #209426 by Joe Morreale

I swear by God this time that this is definately my last comment.

Yes, blown completely out of the water. No alternative theory for evolution, no proof for the existence of god or whether a medieval camel herder had anything more than an epileptic fit. In any case unable to defend said camel herder against paedophilia. Unable to show that the Muslims of the middle ages did anything more than transmit knowledge that they acquired from Latin and Greek sources. Unable to defend against the fact that Muslim countries are in the main theocracies or dictatorships with poor health, wealth and education. Unable to argue against the fact that secular nations have much better civil rights and better economic prospects. Unable to defend the person whose bitch he is from the fact that he is a rapist and blackmailer.

Worst of all, singularly unable to switch his caps lock button off.

I would say you are completely done here.

UK 07877826329

Hmm. should I post your phone number on a BNP or evangelical Christian list? You might get some phone calls you don't expect.

Shall we add the crass stupidity of posting your phone number on a public Internet forum.

240. [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya

Comment #209410 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 6:26 am

Comment #209400 by AllanW

So the 'wider society' side of this debate is where I stand while giving full credit to what capitalism has and can achieve. No economic structure that man has envisaged has delivered economic returns to compare to it yet it needs to be seen not as an end in itself but as one tool to be managed WITHIN a social and political landscape aimed at the greater good for the most people, in my opinion, as that is the real goal to enable us all as a race to progress.

It seems you, I and Bonzai have reasonably similar views, pithily précised by Bonzai as the market being the servant of the people, not the other way around.

To be fair to Al-Rawandi I don't think he has an extreme a view as a number of Americans, he refers to the libertarians as "financial authoritarians". I disagree with what I see as largely black and white thinking in the way he expresses some things.

The problem with economics seems to be the scientism that it prides itself on without it taking on board the rest of the methodology of science, i.e. the testing and falsification. You might classify it as a research programme, but certainly no more than that.

241. PLEASE WRITE IN SUPPORT OF PZ MYERS

Comment #209387 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 5:15 am

A classic as usual -http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/07/09/wafer/

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Comment #209384 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 4:48 am

Comment #209381 by thewhitepearl

People should be able to choose.

But this assumes that people are able to choose. If you have no access to health care and the schools that open to you are poor compared to those the rich can afford then how do you get to the position where that kind of choice is open to you?

Both my grandfathers were coal miners, both my grandmothers were domestic servants. Both my parents were factory workers. I am the first person in my extended family to go to university.

The principle things that made this possible were the National Health Service and the improvement in education provision after the second world war.

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Comment #209373 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 4:28 am

Comment #209364 by Goldy

Well, well, well - South Africa won!

Whereas they don't seem to be doing quite so well at the cricket, 45-2 chasing England's 593.

Cricket, lovely Cricket

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Comment #209359 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 4:13 am

Comment #209349 by Steve Zara

I don't see any sign of an end to capitalism. growth can be like that of trees in a forest. Some may fall and die, but others grow to take their place. Where is the economic growth in chariot making?

And when real resource shortages start appearing? Can I mention peak oil without conjuring the appearance of a regular poster on the topic? What about the reduction of farm land in certain areas of the globe because of global warming or the shortage of water because of population growth?

I honestly don't know whether the control of resources was one of the reasons behind the Iraq war. In my children's lifetime I do expect resource wars to become more prevalent.

Also, there is plenty of opportunity for growth. We haven't built our Dyson Sphere yet.

Unfortunately I can't see a shareholder society in which a return on capital is expected within 18 months funding it though.

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Comment #209343 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 3:31 am

Comment #209307 by thewhitepearl

mainly because we havent had an economy run on pure capitalism. Therefore I can not possibly agree.

Ah, the not my communism capitalism argument ;-)

It has always been mitigated, but much less so in the past than now. As I have pointed out to Al-rawandi and Fanusi, have a look at Engel's analysis and Robert Robert's book - http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Slum-Salford-Quarter-Century/dp/014013624X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215858327&sr=8-1

One of the failures of Marx was his inability to see that we could make piecewise changes to society to improve it, revolution is not necessary. The regulation of the excesses of laissez-faire capitalism and its balancing by the forces of labour are one of the successes of the 20th century as far as I am concerned.

It isn't perfect, people and societies are too dynamic for it ever to be so. And of course vested interests on all sides are always looking for an edge.

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Comment #209318 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 2:57 am

Comment #209286 by Fanusi Khiyal

I notice that you two still cannot answer this simple question:

What social system has a better track record with respect to any social problem than Capitalism?

The one that operates in the Scandinavian countries? I am not sure that has a particular name. You might call it a mixed economy, or a social democracy.

Nor did the capitalist societies get rich by stealing it from elsewhere.

You grew up in SA and spout this? The British Empire grew on the backs of robber barons who stole from elsewhere. And they were capitalists first, and emissaries of the government second. Organisations like the East India company and individuals like Cecil Rhodes.

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Comment #209273 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 1:56 am

Comment #209256 by Laurie Fraser

This is ludicrous. The fact is that capitalism works in the interests of capitalists. Ask the hundreds of millions who live in poverty within so-called "free" economies if capitalism works for them. Or if, for example, the great capitalist society, the USA, has the best interests of the people whose countries have been vandalised by the "interests" of capital.

As I have said a number of times on this site before.

Marx (and Engels) were correct in their analysis of the misery caused by the laissez-faire capitalism of the 19th century. Marx was wrong in his prophecies of the historical inevitability of socialism, as much as anything because he based his ideas on the imperial arse-licker Hegel. He was also wrong about the socialism being the end-state of economic systems.

What both Al and Fanusi seem to be doing is repeating the same mantra, but in an inverted form. Namely, that capitalism exists because of an historical inevitability and is the end state of economic progress. And note, neither of them are offering positive evidence for this. They are simply criticising communism and socialism (and haven't we seen this tactic before, in this very no less albeit on another topic).

The general improvement in society (in Britain at least) came about despite laissez-faire capitalism, not because of it. But it didn't need the revolution that Marx predicted. It came about because of trades unions and the founding of a political party drawn from the working classes, groups like the Rochdale Pioneers and the founders of the Bradford Mechanics Institute. To a certain extent you could even add in church schools, you can definitely add in the 1870 Education Act.

I pointed Fanusi at Engel's best known book which details the misery of the English working classes in the 19th century. E.P. Thompson's "The Making of the English Working Class" covers much of the subsequent history.

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Comment #209246 by epeeist on July 12, 2008 at 1:08 am

Comment #209219 by Fanusi Khiyal

You proudly declare yourself "anti-capitalist" - has there ever been any social system that has a better track record towards any social problem than capitalism?

Can I recommend "The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844" by Friedrich Engels.

This documents the laissez-faire capitalism that was in place in England during the 19th century.

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Comment #208949 by epeeist on July 11, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Comment #208942 by Sciros

Can it be distorted and used as a banner by tyrants? Yes it can, and by some it was. But, the problem with someone like Stalin (for instance) was no more his faith in communism than it was his atheism.

The "communist" regime in the Soviet Union was appalling in terms of human rights, the Gulags, anti-Semitism, lack of democracy, corruption and a whole stack of other things.

However, compare it with the regime it replaced and see if it was any better. Did the standard of living improve? Did education improve? Were people liberated from serfdom? Were human rights better than under the Czarist regime? Would things have improved if the Czar had remained in place?

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Comment #208941 by epeeist on July 11, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Comment #208928 by Peacebeuponme

Unless that is, they somehow re-virginise themselves constantly and retain no knowledge of previous encounters.

Do you know the old joke about the fisherman who went to hell?

Satan took him fishing. They sat down next to a pool and the guy makes a cast. Almost immediately he gets a bit, pulls it in and nets a huge fish.

Makes a second cast, another bite and an even bigger fish.

This goes on for an hour or two and he has the biggest haul of fish that he has ever seen.

"Well that was great," he says to Satan, "I think that will do for the day."

"Oh no," says Satan, "you have to keep fishing."