201. Fleabytes

Comment #137513 by scottishgeologist on March 3, 2008 at 3:22 am

Vaal

Inverness isnt too far from Wee Fleas patch (Dundee) I reckon a couple of hours driving. But wee Fleas denomination, the Free Church, has a significant presence in the area.

I expect more than just a few of them will come along for the fun

:-))

SG

202. Fleabytes

Comment #137489 by scottishgeologist on March 3, 2008 at 1:42 am

NMcC

Yes, got the PM (2 minutes ago!)

Reply been sent!

Cheers

SG

203. Fleabytes

Comment #137474 by scottishgeologist on March 3, 2008 at 1:02 am

Richard

Thanks for that announcement about the Inverness session. Good place to have it as well - Inverness is very much part of the Highlands "Bible Belt" as well as being a very fast expanding city, with a dynamic population. Lots of immigrants from Eastern Europe so there is quite a mix. It'll be interesting to see how it all goes.

By the way probably every single denomination that you can think of is represented in Inverness!

:-))

SG

204. Fleabytes

Comment #137269 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 3:26 pm

Just notice this:

Clearthinker said: For example earlier in this thread Scottish Geologist said that I was the media officer for the Free Church (apart from being utterly irrelevant), it is also completely false

No David, I didnt. I was actually quoting someone else who believed this to be the case. It was Mark Boyle, who used to contribute a lot to the old FCOS forum

I was just showing how things are perceived in other quarters.

So the original commentator may have been wrong, but the point he was making is still valid: your own message board makes it look like your church is obsessed with Dawkins

The way it looks tonight does nothing to change that perception

205. Fleabytes

Comment #137258 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 3:08 pm

Steve said: "As an aside, Josh needs to be complemented on his management of this site. It is coping with a high volume of posts, and presumably a high load, very well"

I go along with that. Its easy enough just to drop in here and post something, hit F5 or whatever and then laugh, but in the background, theres an awful lot of 1's an 0's jumping about...

Actually, I think there are some people who are permanently logged onto this site.... they seem to post at almost ANY time of day or night....

:-)))))
SG

206. Fleabytes

Comment #137225 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 2:29 pm

2753: Only 47 to go and we hit 3000!!!

(No doubt the wee Flea will see this as some sort of vindication of his own position!!!)

777:-)))

SG

207. Fleabytes

Comment #137222 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 2:25 pm

Goldy: This line is fascinating:

"2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him"

So lets get this right, God creates Adam, complete with, for want of a better expression, balls and cock. OK? Presumably when the "Most High" accomplished this feat, he had some sort of plan for these appendages?

And then decides, "hang on I dont want to have him being around on his own" So I'll create Woman.

And hey, in a master stroke of genius, I'll give her a bit that that bit of his fits into!!!

Note, the reason for creating "woman" in the frist place was mans loneliness. Not because she was to be the sexual opposite of him

What is truly unbeleivable is that some people actually get taken in by all this. [shakes head]

208. Fleabytes

Comment #137208 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 2:13 pm

D'Arcy:

"Tectonic Plates" Yes, an interesting subject. However, in the never never land of the faith heads, right at the beginning when Adam was walking around with a permanent stiffy lusting after Eves snatch, there were NO plate tectonics. None. No volcanos, no earthquakes, no tsunamis, none of that stuff.

Until the "forbidden fruit" was scoffed. And then it started. "Sin" appeared and "creation groaned"

Sounds like someone whos been on the 'shrooms or glue?

Nope! David Robertson, writing about the 2004 tsunami:

http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2005/jan05.htm

209. Fleabytes

Comment #137200 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Tim, you might like to consider this regarding oral tradition and passing on the scriptures:

There is a glaring error in the bibles genealogies. Jonathan Sarfati of AIG tried to explain it away:

When Dr. Sarfati was asked the question, "How do you explain the difference between Luke 3:36 and Gen. 11:12?" His response was

"The difference is that Luke 3:36 has the extra name Cainan. Some skeptics have used this difference to attack biblical inerrancy. However, it is important to note that Biblical inerrancy, derived from the teaching that Scripture is 'God-breathed' (2 Tim. 3:15-17, cf. 2 Pet. 1:20-21) and 'cannot be broken' (John 10:35), has to refer to the original autographs that God directly inspired, not to copies or translations. The Cainan difference is not an error in the original autographs of Scripture, but one of the extremely few copyist's errors in the manuscripts available today."

Sarfati is a fundy of the YEC variety. Even HE admits there are errors in the Bible, albeit "extremely few"

Interestingly, this article is no longer available on the AIG web site. OK, it could be an indexing problem or whatever. But there are lots of references to it elsewhere. Do a google on "sarfati" and "cainan" and see what comes up.

:-))) SG

210. Fleabytes

Comment #137192 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Going back to David's example of "answered prayer" (the bus trip) he might want to shed some light on this one.

The church he preaches in is called St Peters. Its most famous pastor (before David of course!) ws Robert McCheyne. McCheyne died young, but was very influential.

Here is some info about his passing:

"In 1843 McCheyne was appointed to be a commissioner to the General Assembly which was to result in the Disruption and the establishment of the Free Church of Scotland. However in March he contracted typhus whilst visiting in the Hawkhill area of his parish. After two weeks illness and despite the Church being full every night of people praying, he died on 25 March. Over six thousand people attended the funeral"

McCheyne was popular in his day. This was mid 19th century Scotland, the churches held phenomenal sway.

All these people praying, no doubt seriously fervently. Asking God to spare their pastor.

He died. And most commentators reckon he died far too young. He could have achieved so much. And at a critical time when the Free Church was about to be birthed.

Got a great sense of humour that God, hasnt he? Prefers to give a pastor £80 rather than spare one of his servants.

Man, thats what I call priorities!

211. Fleabytes

Comment #136963 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 4:31 am

Billy

I referred earlier to Davids "pile o' pish" Reminded me of soemthing I read a wee while back

This may amuse you:

"Church struck by frozen piss comet"
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/3565610-post1.html

Funny as f***!

:-))))))
SG

212. Fleabytes

Comment #136955 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 4:19 am

Billy

Aye, thrown a wobbly, and posted a pile o' pish on his own web site.

Read it and weep....

Still manages to make his own message board look like an annexe of this site....

213. Fleabytes

Comment #136942 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 4:01 am

Billy, that bus story of Davids simply doesnt stack up.

He claims that only he and his wife knew about the planned trip - so presumably it was going to be a surprise. So far so good. He goes to hire a bus. Presumably he found out what the cost would be at that point. It was too high. Now he claims that only he and his wife knew. They could simply have said "no, we'll wait till thefunds are available" After all, no-one else know so no-one was being let down.

But he goes ahead anyway and prepares to write a rubber cheque, knowing he doesnt have the dosh. That is in itself dishonest "Thou shalt not steal" And also bearing false witness. (Two out of the ten, not bad eh?)

Others MUST have known about it. Hence the extra dosh coming in.

Of course there is also the issue of organising a trip involving youngsters, without bringing it up at either his Deacons Court or Kirk Session. It was clearly a church trip since he mentions the fact that the church didnt have the dosh, soit obviously wasnt just him and his wife doing it by themselves.

Nah....

214. Fleabytes

Comment #136928 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 3:30 am

Diacanu

Re the Pope and his bullet proof buggy.

Dawkins himslef has alluded to this, referring to John Paul II:

"when he suffered an assassination attempt in Rome, and attributed his survival to intervention by Our Lady of Fatima, a maternal hand guided the bullet. One cannot help wondering why she didn't guide it to miss him altogether"

ROFL!

215. Fleabytes

Comment #136913 by scottishgeologist on March 2, 2008 at 2:58 am

Paul Creber:

"And if a busload of children on a church-sponsored trip plunges off a precipice, what exactly is that evidence of?
"

Dont know if you know of this tragic incident:

"Teenagers and rector die in crash "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/5230666.stm

And as a follow up:

http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/563/Triple_A9_death_crash_driver_had_heart_attack.html

And finally:

http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/630/Church_to_review_transport_policy_in_wake_of_death_crash.html

(sorry about all the adverts on the link pages)

So, David Robertson, no doubt lots of "fervent" prayer took place prior to the church camps and these various trips. Perhaps the prayers werent "fervent" enough. God said, "stuff em, not praying hard enough - I'll kill a few and that'll show 'em"

I know for a fact that the members of your church pray regularly for these events.

If you can find a "good, compassionate loving god" in the midst of that misery, then the delusion is bordering on mental illness.

However, in a non-theistic world, where there are X number of vehicles travelling on Y number of roads, then Z number of accidents will statistically happen. Thats why we have insurance.

One final point - the 2 teenagers in this incident as the second Inverness Courier article reveals were NOT wearing seat belts? Duty of care? Or maybe praying for that ridiculous notion of "travelling mercies" means that you dont need seat belts.

"The Lord" in his mightiness will preserve you - no need for any safety feature - after all it was "prayed over"

Delusion , callous carelessness and willful ignorance all parcelled up together.

216. Fleabytes

Comment #136205 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Corylus

Almost as bad as this one:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m280/sick_duck_2006/bush_cunt.jpg

Now that' s what I call picking the right camera angle...


:-)))

SG

217. Fleabytes

Comment #136201 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 2:13 pm

NMcC

Know what you mean - BTW, did you get any gen on that Queens Univ sesh with the Wee Flea - soembody reported there were 400 at it

To quote Gunnery Sergent Hartman in Full Metal Jacket: "I didnt know you could stack sh*t that high!"

:-))
SG

218. Fleabytes

Comment #136188 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 2:00 pm

Corylus

Best George Bush i EVER saw was this one:

WARNING!!! ADULT CONTENT!!!

http://www.thekongshow.com/showpics/bushasshole.jpg

:-))

SG

219. Fleabytes

Comment #136182 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 1:56 pm

epeeist - that fencing icon is great! Mind you they look a bit like condoms.....

77777:-))))

SG

220. Fleabytes

Comment #136177 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 1:54 pm

The points that I would really like to see the God botherers get to grips with are these:

Those areas, where the "supernatural" (which lets face it cannot be empirically proven) overlaps and influences the "natural"

They CLAIM that "prayer works" They CLAIM to be able to "prophesy" They CLAIM to "raise from the dead" (well some of them)

OK, Prove it. Go on,show us. You've moved from purely spiritual realm into the real world at these points, so presumably analysis and measurement are valid

As far as I am aware EVERY single example of these things has failed and returned no more than you would expect statistically

In other words COINCIDENCE not CAUSALITY

7:)

SG

221. Fleabytes

Comment #136153 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Gee whizz - go away for a few hours, come back and it takes ages to try to catch up again... man, the server hosting this site must be about to go into meltdown.

How many posts over the past 24 hours? Hundreds? More?

Wheres David Robertson BTW?

Doesnt he have some questions to answer?

:-))

SG

PS: Oh yeah, 7:) (Ronald Reagan!)

222. Fleabytes

Comment #135674 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 7:44 am

al-rawandi

That "bullshit quota" post is hilarious . I especially like: "the shit these theists fling from their monkey cages."

man that is just so graphic. I am still in stitches laughing at it.

Never come near this site with a full bladder...

BTW, what the "posts per hour rate right now? Pretty high I would think....

:-)))
SG

223. Fleabytes

Comment #135658 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 7:30 am

Hey, did I see Hick's name mentioned there - gee whizz, that rang a bell or two. There was a flutter in the Free Church dovecote a couple of years ago when Professor Donald Macleod (the Adulterer of Oz) was taken to task for saying:

"A lot of folk who are not orthodox are good people....And you may know that John Hick, for example, in his emphasis on pluralism [the idea that all religions lead to God] raises the spectre for us and did this for me at a very important point in my life, two or three years ago, when he argues that the Christian faith cannot be the only way to God because it does not produce more saints per capita than any other religion".

The fundies in his church went nuts....

And eventually left...

224. Fleabytes

Comment #135650 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 7:20 am

Paula, yes of course - Joshua's "Long Day"

10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. "Is not this written in the book of Jasher?"

10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

Or as the Skeptics Annotated Bible describes it:

In a divine type of daylight savings time, God makes the sun stand still so that Joshua can get all his killing done before dark.

Some guy this Yaweh - you dont want to go around pissing him off....

225. Fleabytes

Comment #135620 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 6:34 am

Paula: "This exchange of letters suggests that this style may not just be a personal foible on David's part but may actually be representative of a prevailing culture within his church. (In fact, I have seen enough of the FCoC to know that, whilst there may be very pleasant individuals in it, David-Robertson-type behaviour is not unusual.) "

You just need to look back 8 years to that Free Chruch split of 2000 to see how nasty the whole thing is. There was SERIOUS vitriol on all sides. All because of perceived liberalism, watering down of ordination vows etc.

And brought to a head becasue of a FC Professor who was accused of adultery

The matter still rages by the way - in places like Skye in particular. A lot of wounds, a lot of divisions even within families

Hitch hit it on the head "Religion poisons everything"

:-))

SG

226. Fleabytes

Comment #135617 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 6:30 am

mlearnedfriend

"Queen's College Belfast, where 400 turned up"

Since it was a Christian Union event, in Belfast, thats not really surprising I would say

227. Fleabytes

Comment #135610 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 6:20 am

Artful_Dodger

You raise some interesting ideas there - I dont want to get into heavy theology or stuff like that, but I would say that a "literal Adam and Eve" is almost essential for orthodox Gospel christianity as opposed to liberalism

The whole of the NT plan of salvation and redemption is bound up with the concept of "fallen humanity" and original sin. Ergo, there HAS to have been a progenitor of that condition ie Adam /Eve / The Fall

Otherwise you end up with a "concept" of "fallenness" and the "idea" of sin, symnols rather than actualities.

This was actually very lucidly pointed out by a poster on Davids own web site in a discussion over "theistic evolution" The poster argued that "T.E. drives "coach and horses" through the New Testament model of salvation" or something like that.

I know this is a side issue but it is important from the point of view of Science v Religion

It was the Victorian preacher Spurgeon who once pointed out "There are no stopping off points between Calvinism and Atheism". Once liberalism takes root in a church in other words, its a slippery slope. Many modern liberals would bear this out, Spong for example. Or Holloway.

Ironically, its the conservatives in his church that have accused David of liberalism!!!

Man, he must be made of tough stuff....

:-)

SG

228. Fleabytes

Comment #135597 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 6:03 am

Regarding David's "style" of reply:

Read this reply to _J_ and Miller, posted on Davids own message board:

http://www.fcosonline.org/index.php?topic=5.msg162;topicseen#msg162

It positively vibrates with sarcasm and condescension

Now I dont know who Miller is, but his previous questions seemed very reasonable. _J_ on the other hand has almost gone overboard to be polite to David and seems very gentlemanly.

Imagine a test: Take the "style" (not the words) of these two (_J_ and David) put them side by side and ask, "which seems more Christian?

Actually, in that discourse, Miller asked an extremely interesting question:

(Paraphrased) "If someone was brought up on a desert island with absolutely no contact with "christian" ideas or the bible, could they become a "Christian"?

David's answer was yes. But no explanation of how or why?

I would reall love to know, bacause according to Romans 10:

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Still no answer

229. Fleabytes

Comment #135492 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 3:27 am

Epeeist

Yes, Garners books are great - did the "Weirdstone" during English classes at school - a tremendous story, you can just visualise the scenery through the book.

Mind you ,his "Owl Service" was a bit odd I thought - could never quite fathom it out.

BTW, videos for the Owl Service used to be up on YouTube

:-)

SG

230. Fleabytes

Comment #135452 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 1:54 am

Oh yes, just to restore a bit of gender balance, here is "Mrs Farting Preacher"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI-7UMzMc5k

:-)

231. Fleabytes

Comment #135449 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 1:46 am

Diacanu:

"God wants you to be rich"

LOL!! Reminds me, alwaya, when I hear that of Robert Tilton. Tilton is the ULTIMATE in "prosperity gospel " preachers. Claimed that poverty was a consequence of sin.

Anywy, Tilton is renowned for the affected behavior he puts on when preaching. So much so, it looks like he is, well, how shall I put it, ... farting....

Anyway, here is a clip of the "Farting Preacher"

Warning: I find this sort of thing pant-wettingly funny (but then I would cos I'm a tard...) but seriosuly folks, it IS hilarious:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/175084/the_farting_preacher/

232. Sea reptile is biggest on record

Comment #135429 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 12:22 am

Tremendous stuff - this sort of thing just keeps getting better. 150 million years old? Ah! God must have decded to make it "look" old, just to test our faith. Anywy, wonder what name Adam gave to it....

BTW, neat page on wikipedia about Svalbard. Love the polar bear warning road sign:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard

I might be wrong, but did the name "Spitzbergen" not apply to the whole archipelego at one time? I am pretty sure this was the useage in some old encyclopedias I used to have? Any Scandinavians able to clear that one?

:-)

SG

233. Fleabytes

Comment #135427 by scottishgeologist on February 29, 2008 at 12:11 am

I think the thing that needs to be understood about people like David is the evangelical mindset. Evangies dont just "go to church" - they have had a "conversion experience" - the Holy Spirit has dragged them from the "pit and the miry clay" and "set their foot upon the rock" (Psalm 40)

This is, to them , an actual real event that really happened and supposedly transforms their lives.

We're not talking about "deciding to become a Christian" at some Billy Graham god-fest.

This is the real thing, the Calvinistic, "saved by grace" "lost sheep found by the Shepherd" "prodigal son returning" etc etc.

To them it is utterly real, even though it is a "supernatural" phenomenon, that cant be empirically measured.

And that is why it is so hard to fight against.

Contrast this of course with the type of liberal, woolly thinking type who is probably a career preacher - the churches are full of these types.

I remember being shocked, years ago, when a family member referred to his minister "He is definitely a Christian I would say" Eh? Thought I. WTF? He's a minister , how can he NOT be a christian? A bit like being a Tory but not believing in a free market. But apparently, there are a lot of them about.

No, David is the real deal. He is absolutely genuine about what he believes. If you can crack David, you'll crack any faith head

Wouldnt bet on it though.

:-)

SG

234. Fleabytes

Comment #135094 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Billy

LOL!!! Kudos for that one!!!

These genealogies are something else. Always thought that the names are like something you would see on the menu in a kebab shop....

Going back to Brian English's point - when you come back to this site after a few hours away, its like walking back into a crowded party - takes a bit of time to suss out what's happening, where the crack is and what to avoid.

Hey Josh, you got any stats for hits on this web site - the server must be really struggling....

SG

235. Fleabytes

Comment #135084 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Brian English

That was really funny -you summed it up well! :-)

Just goes to show - RD.net is the hottest, livliest place on the 'net

Where all the k3wl dudez hang out! (and a few 'tards as well...)

Cheers!

SG

236. Fleabytes

Comment #135052 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 1:38 pm

Goldy

Those "bastards in church" that lied to you.

THEY SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN THERE!!!!

Proof: Deut 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD

Tenth generation as well.... man, that's strict....

Cheers

SG

237. Fleabytes

Comment #134974 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 12:21 pm

Paula

this notion of human nature being polluted, is unfortunately, standard, evangelical orthodox thinking.

"all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god"

If you want an absolute cracker of this sort of thing, try the sermon "Vile!" by Arthur Pink.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Miscellaneous/vile.htm

This will leave you gasping for air.

Pink was a whackjob par excellence. Went to Lewis to find a "pure church". Tried the Free Presbyterians, but ended up as a lonesome figure, buried in an unmarked grave in Stornoway.

Accused of hyper-calvinism by some, he really would be considered an uber-fundy today.

SG

238. Fleabytes

Comment #134955 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 11:47 am

Paula, pointless death, esp of children is one of the things that the God squad simply cannot give a good answer to.

Take the example of the child who died when she fell in a fast flowing river near Braemar 2 years ago. Where was "God " then? He saw her fall in - he didnt "allow " her to be rescued. When she was underwater, dying, where was "God". Watching her die? Or unable to do anything? Holding her under?

Its the old "argument from suffering" but the theists simply dont have an answer.

Dawkins has an answer howerver, already given: "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference'

Sure it aint pretty, but its how it is. Take a 1000 children, stand them by 1000 rivers, statistically, some will fall in. Statistically, some wont make it out.

No need for "Gods" to explain anything. They just offer a false hope that isnt there.

Actually, one of the worst explanations of "God / suffering / why?" I ever read was David Robertsons article in the aftermath of the 2004 earthquake and tsunami:

I quote:

"What is the explanation and solution for all this? How can we explain and more importantly cope with this bent universe and our perverse human natures? The Bible's worldview and answer is both far more coherent and far more practical than the 'that is just the way it is' view of the Darwinianists, or the 'nice God, nice world' theology of much of theological liberalism. The world has been corrupted by sin. There is pollution of every kind. Human beings are polluted."

239. Fleabytes

Comment #134889 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 9:41 am

Steve said:

What he seems to be desperate for is a self-promoting debate with Dawkins

The worst thing is that he's sprung up several twats from the God squad doing the same thing, the worst of the breed being David Robertson of the Free Church of Scotland, who even hijacked his own bloody church's web forum (abusing his position of media convener to do so) to turn it into what he thought would be a "fan page" when his book countering Dawkins came out. To date on the "new improved" board there's been 92 posts over the last NINE MONTHS on the board - about as many as the board used to get in a week, & could even boast a Daily Mail columnist & about a quarter of the buggers that used to have their letters in The Herald & The Scotsman in those days - yes, you guessed it, they all left.

240. Fleabytes

Comment #134778 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 7:49 am

Actually Paula, although it is not "right in yer face" on the homepage, it is going to pop up every time someone clicks on a "Fleabytes" comment response.

And the way this string of comments is going (up to Page 30 now) it could well be the longest thread ever as it doesnt seem to be showing any signs of slowing down.

What is the current "most comments" item? Anyone know? Josh?

:-))

SG

241. Fleabytes

Comment #134661 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 4:42 am

Quetz

Your link looked a bit broken. This works OK though:

http://www.italianstudies.org/hui235/U_S_ News Modern thinking says the netherworld isn't so hot after all (1-31-00).htm


(EDIT: damn, it wont cut and paste.... that didnt work either...) Anyway... Go here, and look for "hell hath no Fury"

http://www.italianstudies.org/hui235/

I love that Jonathan Edwards "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" stuff". Of course, modern day evangies hold him up as a shining example of Puritan evangelism, father of the "Great Awakening"

That sermon gets a note here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Angry_God

An extract for those that like this kind of thing:

The wrath of God burns against them; their damnation does not slumber; the pit is prepared; the fire is made ready; the furnace is now hot; ready to receive them; the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet and held over them, and the pit hath opened her mouth under them.

242. The Giant Tortoise's Tale

Comment #134648 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 4:19 am

This guy is "all ears" as well.

http://www.disneynewsarchive.com/images/BVHE/DUMBO.jpg

243. Fleabytes

Comment #134628 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 3:58 am

Some modern theologians are "re-examining" traditional teachings on Hell. Main one amongst these is defintely John Stott. Stott is a conservative Anglican, definitely "evangelical", but has in recent years expressed a tentative belief in "anihilationism" (which is, the atheist position)

Basically, if you are saved, you go to heaven. If not, you get anihilated. No hell. No "conscious eternal punishment" for not believing.

Of course, this sort of "conditional salvation" goes sompletely against what the church has taught for centuries

So the question has to be, were all these great "men of faith" in the past, these "giants of scripture" actually wrong? And if so why? Has God suddenly phoned up the Evangelical Alliance and said "Guys, its not quite like that, its actually like this..." "OK God, cheers pal, we'll get revising"

Hell is a real achilles heel for Christians. They dont like talking about it, it embarasses the "trendy" hip ones, like David Robertsons fan club in the Free Church. So they dont mention it. They ignore it.

The real fundies love talking about it however. They LIKE the idea of people suffering. "No atheists in Hell" and all that pish.

It is always worth looking to see what the Westminster Confession of Faith has to say, since this is supposedly the subordinate standard of a lot of evangelical churches.

Two extracts:

Chapter XXXII :
Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption:[1] but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:[2] the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.[3] And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.[4] Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none.

II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed:[5] and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.[6]

AND

Chapter XXXIII
Of the Last Judgment
I. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ,[1] to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father.[2] In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged,[3] but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.[4]

II. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.[5]

(The numbers refer to "scriptural proofs")

And just one final point. Free Church ministers, like David, take "ordination vows" These are of the form:

"I, X, do hereby declare, that I do sincerely own and believe the whole doctrine contained in the Confession of Faith, approven by General Assemblies of this Church to be the truths of God; and I do own the same as the confession of my faith; ...."

So ministers like David and his fan club in the FCofS are BOUND by their ordination vows to believe in the traditional doctrine of hell and to preach it.

They dont. Would they rather NOT warn people about burning for ever if they dont get saved?

Two possible answers:

1) They dont really care
2) They know that the traditional idea of Hell is wrong and doesnt exist.


:-)

244. Fleabytes

Comment #134571 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 2:13 am

Speaking of tweeters and such like, this video is hilarious (another Not the 9 o Clock News special)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSINO6MKtco

:-)))

SG

245. Fleabytes

Comment #134548 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 1:17 am

Actually, all these ridiculous "hell" and "suffering" remarks by preachers fit into the "fundies say the darndest things" category.

Great web site - try the latest comments;

http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/latestcomments.aspx?archive=1

:-))))))

246. Fleabytes

Comment #134543 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 1:10 am

Further info re Hell and suffering:

The sermon by McCheyne on all this can be found here:

http://www.sovereign-grace.com/1551.htm

Of course, all this is backed up by "Scripture" that supposedly infallible source of absolute truth.

This sort of stuff was mainstream at the time. This was a time when the churches had immense power in the land. Millions of people would have been scared sh*tless becasue of this type of stuff.

Notice the date: 11th Dec 1842. Loads of Christmas joy there , eh?

247. Are they running for President or Pastor-in-Chief?

Comment #134537 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 12:59 am

Fav Bible verse:

Just has to be :

1 Chronicles 4:9-10:

And Jabez called on the God of Israel saying, "Oh that You would bless me indeed, and enlarge my territory, that Your hand would be with me, and that You would keep me from evil, that I may not cause pain!" So God granted him what he requested

The so called "Prayer of Jabez". Also a book by Bruce Wilkinson.

Prosperity gospel in a nutshell - and a huge publishing phenomenon as well

As the author himself said:

"I challenge you to make the Jabez prayer for blessing part of the daily fabric of your life. To do that, I encourage you to follow unwaveringly the plan outlined here for the next thirty days. By the end of that time, you'll be noticing significant changes in your life, and the prayer will be on its way to becoming a treasured, lifelong habit."

Even a lot of Christians find difficulty with this stuff.

248. Fleabytes

Comment #134535 by scottishgeologist on February 28, 2008 at 12:42 am

Epeeist, re Aquinas comment:

(This is from a previous comment I made, maybe wrth mentioning again)

Two examples.

R M McCheyne. Scottish Pastor. In one of his sermons 11th Dec 1842, he spoke about "The eternal torment of the wicked - a matter of eternal song to the redeemed" Based on Revelation 19:3. He makes the 3 points:

1) The eternal torment of the wicked will be a matter of no grief to the redeemed.
2)The torment of the wicked will be a matter of joy to the redeemed
3)The reason why the redeemed will rejoice at the condemnation of the wicked.

Sick stuff. You can find it in the book "A Basket of Fragments" by Christian Focus Publications.

There is also the example of Jonathan Edwards, the famous preacher, who said in a famous sermon, The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous, that "when the saints in glory shall see the wrath of God executed on ungodly men, it will be no occasion of grief to them but of rejoicing"

Both these men are held up by modern day evangies as "great men of faith" "giants of the faith" "steeped in the Word" and all that BS.

Incidentally, McCheyne was the pastor of the churcvh in Dundee that David Robertson now preaches in! David has even written a book about him. One of his heroes...

However, in another fascinating twist to all this, Professor Donald Macleod in his book "Behold your God" DENIES all this hand -rubbing, "yes, burn you bitch!" gratification of the "saved" Says it is not the case

So there you have it: One preacher says "black" the other says "white" Cant both be right. Or maybe in the Pythonesque world of religion, maybe they can...

Donald Macleod is of course, the Free Church professor who split his church due to his "inappropriate relationships" with young women being rumbled and not being dealt with properly.

Oh boy, tabloid stuff, isnt it?

249. Fleabytes

Comment #134202 by scottishgeologist on February 27, 2008 at 11:50 am

Corylus

David Robertson is no stranger to controversy in his own church. There was a big schism in 2000 when a number of conservatives left to form, wait for it, the "Free Church Continuing". David was one of the main opponents of this conservative bloc that left. The whole thing was unbelievably messy.

It had been coming to ahead for a number of years, but the thing that really pushed it over the edge was the alleged failure of the church to deal with discipline properly, in this particualr case over a Professor who was accused of adultery / sexual impropriety in Australia in the mid 90s.

David Robertson has been a "moderniser" ever since. I suspect that there are still a few conservatives left that he would like to get rid of so that he can attempt to turn his church into something hip and trendy. This is where he runs into problems with the traditionalists

I have a feeling I read somewhere that David was once a Baptist but went over to the Free Church. In which case he has already shifted theological ground in terms of the sacrament of baptism.

This would also explain (again to the consternation of the conservatives in his church) his frequent cozying up to pentecostals and charismatics. I remember him bending over backwards on his own web site to attack someone (presumably a conservative) who suggested that "tongue speaking" and charismatic behaviour were wrong and deluded. Since he has become editor of his church magazine, he has written several things which basically praise charismatics, esp a recent article about R T Kendall.

Davids Robertson has been described as a maverick - church watchers find him fascinatng. Scottish church history is replete with his type who upset the apple cart every so often.

Maverick link:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland?articleid=3667427#2368648

(already posted in another comment, but fun just the same)

He must be driven by a very strong sense of mission - either that or he is a masochist.

In a way I can sympathise with him - he is trying to make "the gospel" more relevant and contemporary. Which basically HAS to work or else it is finished in this country at any rate. Even in Scotland, which I once saw described as "Englands Calvinist auntie" (!!) the churches are virtually irrelevant.

The history of the church here has been one of schism and union, schism and union, ad nauseam, every split and join representing some group who "OWN the Truth and Sell it not"

Look at this diagram:

http://website.lineone.net/~davghalgh/presbyterianchurches.jpg

It does NOT actually contain the branch that split off in 2000, so it is actually better than it looks!

I am glad I am out of all this stuff. Back to the Galapagos tortoises I think! Much more refreshing.

:-))

SG

250. Fleabytes

Comment #134161 by scottishgeologist on February 27, 2008 at 10:46 am

These exchanges always seem to end up at a "shouting past each other" session becasue of the ideas of "evidence" and "presuppositions"

I'd like to know, how can there be "evidence" that is purely supernatural and not empirical. Warm fuzzy feelings dont count.

Its liek this "God is talking to me" nonsense. Two examples - I remember a woman who was convinced that God was telling her to go to a particular place to do a particular job. It was a total disaster and she came home a mental and physical wreck. Her comment: "I was so sure that God was telling me to go...."

So she was wrong? Or was God just being a b------ ?

Or the young man who died in an accident at sea . Christian friends of the victims family "comforted" them by saying that maybe it was Gods way of sparing him from trials later in life that they WOULDNT be spared from. Of course this was taken as immense wisdom and "great spiritual maturity"

I have see people, Christians, STRUGGLE with this sort of stuff and they always end up coming back to "his ways are higher than ours" "he knows whats best" "we will know in eternity"

Taking Occams razor to the throat of this BS leaves anyone with any common sense with the inescapable notion that perhaps God simply doesnt exist?

There is no evidence because there is nothing to LEAVE such evidence. End of story.

But still the delusion goes on....

SG