201. John McCain: America a Christian nation, needs Christian president

Comment #190205 by phil rimmer on June 8, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Well, from Barry's (and Toads reposted) link. It's Obama for me! (Damn! How can I achieve American citizenship by October?)

If this hasn't helped lift the political debate, I don't know what would. This was risky and noble stuff.

I don't buy that McCain HAS to get down in the gutter.

202. Albinos, Long Shunned, Face Threat in Tanzania

Comment #190190 by phil rimmer on June 8, 2008 at 1:57 pm

witch doctors are now marketing albino skin, bones and hair as ingredients in potions that are promised to make people rich

But, think about it, what could be even more efficacious than albino body parts?

Witch Doctor body parts! [/swiftian]

203. Faith no more as World Youth Day fans flames of disbelief

Comment #189927 by phil rimmer on June 7, 2008 at 5:43 pm

I'm with the Falcon on this.

We must never be, or seek to construct, the Thought Police.

We must demand the highest behaviour of all our citizens in the public space. Truth, corroborated evidence, is the only stable substrate of a pluralistic society.

We have to frame these two points together so that religites see the burden is with them. It is for them to discover the extent of their personal beliefs' transgression into society. When they discover that these entreaties in no way deny them their strength of moral feeling they may learn to keep the non-evidence of God rather more to themselves.

It seems to me that Reticent Atheists are drawn mainly from the social professions, doctors, social workers, teachers. It must be tough dealing with needy and deserving individuals who believe and express bollocks. I think mentally you might have to explain away such nonsense, by putting it into a low significance category. I think they are wrong to do this, but...

For Logicel.

My Roman Catholic friend believes all the stuff you and I believe, regarding a secular state regarding the absolute need that his children are educated as rational free-thinkers given all the evidence. He also professes to believe in God but regularly tells me to eff off if I try to discuss the topic. The fact of himself and his behaviour is the only endorsement he offers for his religion. Rare as he is, he exists.

204. 'In Our Time': Trofim Lysenko

Comment #189918 by phil rimmer on June 7, 2008 at 4:20 pm

I adored the two failures to prove the Lamarckian adaptive principle of evolution-

1) The British farmers wife, sorry, scientist who cut of the tails of mice to try and create a breed of tail-less mice.

2) The failed 2,000-plus year old Jewish experiment of a similar nature.

(Hitch is probably right to call time on this one.)

205. The Expelled Evolutionist

Comment #189188 by phil rimmer on June 5, 2008 at 5:09 pm

You seem to think I have some kind of divinely-inspired...

No. Thats the point.

I was brought up an Episcopalian and I...

The reason depends on a person's biography? Ah..

The reason is...

Is..?

actually I think I'll be a bit sadistic and let you hang there! Manana.

Please, let it be different this time!
If it is just about all these different forms of religion, struggling to express the same thing; if it is about the nature of consciousness; or about the the very existence of existence; if it is about purpose, please consider NOT telling us.
Considering there are so many "recovering" once-religious folk here, YOUR reason (whatever it is) is unlikely to be a surprise.
Consider also the possibility of keeping your faith in God always to yourself. You are fully rational enough to justify your own moral position on anything without recourse to spurious authority. You KNOW that free-will makes you alone responsible for your actions. Your duty is to truth and that must lead you to always strive to close those gaps with unsentimental fervor.

What if in proclaiming your faith on the basis of personal experience you lead another into a mistaken certainty?

Why not say, "My faith is my own. The rest of you can just fuck off." and just leave it at that? Carry on the intelligent and interesting discussion and don't imply that you have special insider knowledge that allows you a better view of of the problems at hand.

You don't think that do you?

G'night.

206. The Expelled Evolutionist

Comment #189173 by phil rimmer on June 5, 2008 at 4:05 pm

I do not believe a religious and a scientific view of the world are mutually exclusive. I do not say, either, that they are interchangeable, like Rosencrantz and Gildernstern. I'm just... aw, it's up to you if you want to engage. I'm to bed.

Damn. damn, DAMN! Now we'll never know. I really think (s)he was going to tell us too.

Its your fault, Steve Zara, asking for those falsifiable predicaments and corroborated whatsits. Nearly two years I've been here and not once have the nice Christians told us their secret. I know it has something to do with feelings and such, but they never tell us HOW THEY KNOW..... Not fair.

207. The Great Evangelical Decline

Comment #189029 by phil rimmer on June 5, 2008 at 8:31 am

Comment #188979 by Tyler Durden

Many here would agree with the greater truth embodied in your corrections and observations. But the piece was intended, I suspect, as a broadly non-offensive set of observations directed at a predominantly Christian audience. It pointed out the social logic of moving to a more tolerant, less dogmatic, religious stance.

Is there not merit in encouraging a move in the religious zeitgeist of this sort? Sure, we want the move to carry on so that all dogma is shunned but if we were to see commentary like this getting into the mainstream media this would be good, no?

208. The Great Evangelical Decline

Comment #188812 by phil rimmer on June 4, 2008 at 3:58 pm

Christine,

You are indeed very welcome here. I hope you get to stay and offer us more insights.

I suspect Amazon might be getting quite a few searches for this and other Wicker work.

Good stuff!

209. The Great Evangelical Decline

Comment #188802 by phil rimmer on June 4, 2008 at 3:15 pm

Quetz

Or it might be because there is now more resistance to creationism than before, which gives it a greater profile by default.

Indeed, its when firing your blasters that you get to see those "Monsters from the Id".

210. The Great Evangelical Decline

Comment #188797 by phil rimmer on June 4, 2008 at 2:53 pm

mordacious1

This lady is obvious a christian who is bemoaning the decline of the the evanges.
I just hope some of these people come over to the dark side.

From her own website she says-

He wanted me to come to one of his conferences and be interviewed about why I was no longer a Christian.

I'm not sure I want to do anything that will cause there to be more Christians.

However she is also inclined to throw in

Who are you to say that Jesus and I have parted ways?

Though it seems she "never can say goodbye", that doesn't put her a million miles from the Hitch and "I'd miss religion if it were to go completely."

Because she HAS come over to the Dark Side, I'll allow her a couple of flashbacks.

211. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #188429 by phil rimmer on June 4, 2008 at 5:15 am

Appleby's patently obnoxious nature to one side for a moment, I would be fascinated to listen in on the deliberations at the adoption agency or the fertility clinic were the kid to find he was shooting blanks and needed their help parenting wise.

His point about suitability of people for parenthood is, of course, valid if the right metric is chosen to establish suitability. I think the cautious and wise people deciding on issues of suitability would soon get the measure of the lad if they could see his fevered "ejaculations" here.

No cup for you, I would suspect, Sonny Jim.

EDITED Quote marks lest Appleby isn't familiar with the meaning of the term ejaculation.

212. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #188339 by phil rimmer on June 4, 2008 at 1:05 am

Come on Appleby - tell us why your relationship with your girlfriend is different from...

Sadly it is a relationship which will be changing rather rapidly. The poor woman (?) will already be "used goods". Probably starting to get a little judgmental too as Appleby's interest inevitably wanes.

I have to admit to once arrogantly feeling like the following-

And I enjoy teaching them to make up for their lack of experience.

My first girlfriend did me a great kindness by dumping me for having such a crapulent attitude and knowing nothing. My second was a revelation. By her patient education of me, it transformed my attitude to sex, to women, love, mutuality, and the value of sustained, spontaneous acts of kindness.

Maybe Appleby is young after all. Maybe he just needs taking in hand by a mature women....

213. We happy hooligans

Comment #187768 by phil rimmer on June 2, 2008 at 3:24 pm

EB

It's easy enough to say the only purpose life has is what we give it. But I'm not sure that's any better an answer than the vague notion of God many of these theologians present. (No worse, perhaps, either.)

No. It is the most wonderful answer there could be. Fucking scary, but... I love what I "make". I adore what other people "make". It genuinely seems that you can make something out of nothing.

PS Catch me on a bad day, and I'd agree with you.

214. Physicist Claims First Real Demonstration of Cold Fusion

Comment #187765 by phil rimmer on June 2, 2008 at 3:08 pm

If anybody wants to check out the background to this, here is what they were up to in 2005-

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ArataYdevelopmenb.pdf

1) Energy gain inferred only.
2) No account of sustainability or consumption of Palladium.
3) Arata is something of a Japanese nationalist.

Having been warned elsewhere about ad homs, I nervously include 3 as a bit of peripheral evidence regarding a motivation for wish-thinking on Arata's part. (Glorious Japan will prevail against its enemies!)

215. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187738 by phil rimmer on June 2, 2008 at 1:47 pm

I'm afraid you still don't understand my position on the matter.

Stunningly, nor does anyone here. Despite all the posts, despite the simplicity of your arguments. Despite some genuine help offered to get a more logical framing of your arguments. No wonder we're pissed off with you.

The worst though is the lack of interest you express in examining your own repugnant feelings. I hope you'll be very happy together.

216. Physicist Claims First Real Demonstration of Cold Fusion

Comment #187724 by phil rimmer on June 2, 2008 at 1:31 pm

With the stranglehold that oil companies have on the world economy, you really think they would let cheap, easy energy leak onto the market?

Most of them (with the exception of EXXON *spits*) would rush to fund it.

EDIT: Most are genuinely, if slowly, repositioning themselves as energy companies. They will control its rate of release, subject to the driver of competition.

217. Physicist Claims First Real Demonstration of Cold Fusion

Comment #187715 by phil rimmer on June 2, 2008 at 1:24 pm

but it looks like the palladium/zirconium oxide was a catalyst

Thats as maybe, but does it get "clogged up" with the stable He4? Remember this is generated within the matrix of the material. Can the He4 ALL successfully escape? If not the process is possibly useless.

(Iron Man suddenly clutches chest...)

218. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187427 by phil rimmer on June 2, 2008 at 6:08 am

Oops! Bloody posted the wrong one.

219. Richard Dawkins interviewed by John Humphrys on Cardinal Murphy O'Connor

Comment #187338 by phil rimmer on June 2, 2008 at 2:04 am

hcaroe

Yes, Cardinal Murphy O'Connor is a nice man, but it doesn't make him right and it doesn't mean that some of his ideas might not be harmful.

Despite your perception Richard Dawkins is a nice man too. Again it doesn't make him right. But see (and think) for yourself......

Here is Richard being nice to the Bishop of Oxford.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ0WinCWtLs&feature=related

(When you pray is there some kind of dialogue that you have with yourself also? Do you put new material and questions in there? Or do you repeat the same thoughts and wishes to get them better fixed? Would you pray for true enlightenment? Genuinely interested BTW.)

220. The Challenge of the New Creationism

Comment #187326 by phil rimmer on June 2, 2008 at 12:25 am

Intelligent Design?

Don't you just love the laryngeal nerve screw up? Looped under the aorta. No wonder giraffes don't talk so well.

221. Lizards make adaptive change

Comment #187244 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 3:44 pm

Ah, y'see, but it didn't happen in the lab. So it doesn't really count. It can't be scientific. And besides I've got my eyes closed and my hands over my ears. "Jebus wants me for a sunbeam...tra la.."

222. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187238 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 3:19 pm

Mordacious1

That is quite as distasteful as Richard Gere's mouseturd.....

223. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #187236 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 3:12 pm

fizhburn 6652: Metabolic energy is a commodity

Energy and energy cost is a particular blind spot for IDers. They don't appreciate the use of energy in real processes to produce the work required, and they fail to acknowledge its requirement in their fantastical processes to do the magic work they envisage.

Properly directing those shafts of light and turning those little wrenches all requires energy.
This use of energy doesn't contravene any laws of thermodynamics does it? Why aren't these aspects of ID theology being hypothesised about and disproving experiments devised?

224. Darwin's Joyful Journey of Discovery

Comment #187230 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 2:39 pm

The world has become a much less interesting place since (the time of) his discoveries.

Kraut, Duff. Fixed for you.

(Bugaboo, the spurious causal linkage isn't warranted from the text. And the question mark can go. You didn't think he was saying that the theory of evolution made the world a less interesting place, did you? You did understand the point about the destruction of bio-diversity, didn't you?)

225. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187210 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 1:40 pm

Its a Lifestyle choice by the morally feeble!

It starts as a form of child abuse. Some mustachioed uncle (the mustache hides the shameful staining) putting marmite on my toast. "This'll make a man of you," he laughs. The shame as I spit it out......oh...oh....sorry.

226. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187201 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Quick, pray it away, Phil, pray it away!!!

Yes I'm lower even the those scum mustardites...I'm on my knees now.............Bloody Hell there's a lot of empty jars under there. That one's still got some in....

227. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187195 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Oh, Lawks,

I should have tippexed out the evidence. The shame!

228. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187190 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Quetz, Max,

The thing that struck me about the article was how romantic the gay relationship thing could be. Much less likely to be centered around procreation, it could be merely for its own sake.

This reminded me of the idea that Romantic Love was "invented" within the Greek Gymnasia (particularly in the militaristic gymnasia of Sparta) where a mutually supportive and protective relationships would form between men under mortal threat.

I presume the metric of goodness Appleby would derive from the article is that gay relationships last only 80% (or whatever)as long as the straight (and this only providing the requirements of parental responsibilities are neglected.) Well, that certainly justifies a ghetto.

EDIT Stop all this smutty marmite talk! Its making me..... quite....er...oh, God. I thought I had these urges under control....Help me...

229. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187149 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 11:23 am

I personally simply find male homosexuality disgusting. That's all. I don't think it's grounds to deny them their rights. However, I would perhaps be more open - than say, gay rights proponents - to the "less than human" argument just mentioned. If such evidence then presented itself to support said contention, I might have to consider the possibility of accepting it as true after all.

This horrible and telling muddle of Appleby's should be his epitaph here.

Noodly's right. Don't feed the troll. The Turing test has failed.

230. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187136 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 10:52 am

Appleby, you are not alone. You are a kindred spirit with Noel Coward the noted homosexual playwright, director, singer / songwriter. He loathed the very idea of sodomy.

Its curious the morbid obsessions some people have about what goes on in other people's bedrooms.

The answer is simple- just stay outside.

231. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187124 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 10:15 am

OK, pedantically. Lets take the attribute of cognitive ability.

If...

All homosexuals are severely cognitively impaired (we've got to get them to animal status in some measure remember).

I ask...

a)Is severe cognitive impairment an attribute worthy of treatment like an animal?

b)Does severe cognitive impairment allow any kind of expression of homosexual behaviour that would be in any way distinguishable from other symptoms of cognitive impairment? Does it not make sense to talk only of the cognitively impaired?

232. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187117 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 10:04 am

Appleby

I answered

Let me ask you this. Is there any kind of evidence, in principle, that could be presented to warrant that homosexuals should be exiled and not treated as equals?

With

Any attribute deserving of banishment is the attribute that identifies an individual as deserving banishment.

Someone with that attribute should be banished.

Clear?

Sadly it wasn't.

233. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187113 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 9:55 am

No probs, Col. Here, have some of my Chablis. It helps....well it helps me.

cheers

234. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187105 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 9:47 am

C'mon, Appleby. Don't tell me you haven't thought this through?

(You could cheat and look at 207 for a clue.)

235. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187103 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 9:46 am

Col, the page change often catches me out. Being a bit dumb today. Somewhere less than a Bonobo but more than a macaque;)

Appleby. Ignore Col. You are allowed to choose a sensible attribute.

236. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187096 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 9:36 am

Appleby

If homosexuals could be demonstrated to be on the level of animals (i.e. less than human by some criteria)

But what sort of criterion, metric, attribute? Give me an EXAMPLE. Its important. Trust me.

237. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187083 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 9:24 am

Col. Lets not rush him.

Baby-steps only!

238. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187080 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 9:20 am

Appleby

Any attribute deserving of banishment is the attribute that identifies an individual as deserving banishment.

Someone with that attribute should be banished.

Clear?

239. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187078 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 9:15 am

Appleby

You tell me.

240. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187072 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 9:04 am

Appleby

What do you think of that?

Baby stuff.

You need to argue that the Truth (corroborate-able evidence) of the situation has been cloaked from view in our society somehow. Otherwise your argument is still only semantic....superior evidence is superior.

We used to believe the sort of stuff you're espousing as a possible truth. The corroborate-able evidence (of "inferior" races and women) has led us entirely away from those beliefs. Indeed our view of "dumb brutish" animals is being enlightened. Further, we can analyse and model why untruths were held onto with such tenacity in the past. (There were winners in a zero sum power game.)

In the 60s and 70s it was PC to believe the absolute equivalence of men and women. Toy hammers were thrust into little girls' hands and dolls into boys'. Understanding the differences between us has been literally liberating, preventing idiot PC principles from hampering individuals achieving their best. Further corroborate-able evidence shows the huge variability of individuals, meaning that the judgment of individuals on the basis of some group behaviour metric is irrational.

What you repeatedly fail to do is formulate the nature of any metric that could possibly serve your purpose. What metric could there be to license homophobia? That there is a high correlation with criminal behaviour? (There isn't BTW, in case you get all excited.) What of the homosexuals that are not criminals? Lock them up just in case? Why not just deal with criminals?

Oh, I forgot to add in the previous un-answered post "Oughts" are important for one group of people.....

Young children.

241. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #187032 by phil rimmer on June 1, 2008 at 6:37 am

Appleby

It's simple. Assuming there is an objective morality of some kind independent of us, we have to be willing to accept the possibility that certain "truths" may not be politically correct, conventional or even acceptable by our own standards. Here's an example (and I'm not insisting it's true): Men really are superior to women.

a) You are right "Oughts" or Transcendant Truths, were they to exist in some manner more profound than as social constructs, would trump the social construct of Political Correctness, or any individual's personal feelings for that matter. So? This argument is pretty much semantic so far. A superior truth is superior....

b) What if "Oughts"/ TTs existed in some sense of an external given? How could it possibly be phrased? Men are superior to women? What does that mean? In what measure? Are all men superior to all women in this measure? "Outghts" and TTs are no help in managing our lives because circumstance will always outfox them. There will always be a situation where the simple minded adoption of such a thing will lead to a worse outcome. More specifically, it is devilishly easy to contrive situations where a conflict of "Oughts" occurs. Ah What to do? Look at the "Strength" score on each's card or throw a dice?

c) Declaring a non-PC personal feeling (to whit- women, exclusively, are degraded by sexual experience)is not altogether uncommon on this web-site. Many of us have religious or other histories where self examination was not allowed and baseless prejudices flourished. However, admissions of such personal feelings are rarely offered and never accepted as evidence of ANYTHING but that it is a personal feeling. It is usually followed by an offered analysis of the rationality of the claim.

d)

To quote Christopher Hitchens, you use the term "offensive" as if it's some kind of argument.

What was offensive here was that you offered no evidence for claim and felt no need of looking for any.

We are free to offer our views of you as evidence of our personal feelings. The difference is the ready availability of evidence for our case....if only we could be bothered.

e) What AllanW said in 152.

242. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #186860 by phil rimmer on May 31, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Atheist Aspy

Even when the person ends up having fewer beliefs to be dogmatic about, it seems they "make up" for the lost dogma by being even more dogmatic about their remaining beliefs.

Ah the Aspy theory of the Conservation of Dogma.

You'll have corroborated evidence for this, of course? No? A second anecdote? Hmm? Someone else who thinks the same that you can quote? No?

Bloody Hell. At least with dogma there is a bit of track record...

EDIT Making a logical connection with this would be a start..

I've seen data showing that atheists donate less time and money to charity and have more emotional problems, for instance.

243. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #186857 by phil rimmer on May 31, 2008 at 1:07 pm

Appleby

such as men actually being superior to women

OK pick your metric. In testosterone levels? Average height? Flatulence? Social skills? Agreeing with you?

We're there already. We make the judgments.

So what are you on the God Absolute Goodness Aggregate scale (as a male I mean)? A Two? Three? Not as low as I had thought. Must have been lifted by your flatulence score.

244. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #186843 by phil rimmer on May 31, 2008 at 11:59 am

if homosexuality was rightfully found (nevermind how, for now) to be detrimental to society

But we do deal with troublesome groups of individuals. Criminals we lock up. You need to have good evidence though. There are issues of proving active evil-thinking required before such harm is inflicted. Illness (which you probably have in mind) is certainly not culpable and certainly smiting the whole of San Fransisco as a response is looked at in a dim light by humans these days.

No what we do is turn diversity into strength because it is part of us. Ever resourceful we humans.

245. Storm erupts over 'virginity' divorce

Comment #186744 by phil rimmer on May 31, 2008 at 8:40 am

In my experience, the typical atheist simply replaces one dogma (religion) for another, but of a political nature.

Utterly mystifying as this is to someone in the UK, does it in any way represent the US experience? I've always found US nationals rather more fervent about their politics than the UK nationals have now become. But even so.....so many people here have proclaimed their hatred of any form of dogma. Thats the whole point isn't it?

246. Louisiana's latest creationism bill moves to House floor

Comment #186687 by phil rimmer on May 31, 2008 at 3:54 am

Teratornis

Do the beliefs of creationists make sense to you?

Yes. Perfectly. That's the WHOLE point. They make perfect sense even to a four year old.
They are an utterly self-consistent stab at creating a perfect world with perfectly behaved individuals in it. What's hard about that?

But what's the problem with it? Well, because it is a lie, unless everyone continues to reinforce everyone else's faith in the matter ( or appearance of faith) the whole thing unravels very quickly. It is hugely vulnerable to the inadvertent revelation of truth and truthful shit happens.

Do you think that the folks who are expressing contempt for creationists in this thread are converting many of them?

No. And who gives a damn about individual creationists. There are a hundred million of them in the US. Probably billions worldwide, including other faiths. The real need as I see it is that we be seen as a destabilising threat. Creationist "leaders" who see the social necessity of the vision of perfection as more important than the details DO need to know that there is a prowling, undefeatable truth outside the mental compound of their flock. The wolves are real and won't go away. These leaders must be provoked, by the very fact of our threatening existence, into action and suffer visible defeats (in the courts and in the media) at the hands of moderate religites and atheists.

I agree that social pressure plays an important role in shaping people's beliefs, and insults can be part of that, not to mention loads of fun.

Insults just relieve personal pressure. They are failures and I fail a lot.

Suppose every single person in a creationist's life suddenly embraced science and started repeating the facts of science to him.

I don't care about the individual creationist. Its accessing the majority that ultimately counts.


Your analysis of social pressure is a start. Herding IS a great defensive strategy by isolating the great majority from the circling wolves. But the truth is everywhere. I've even heard its available in some schools and more completely on your computer, courtesy of Wikipedia. The pressure points are education, the failure of leaders to promote and extend the influence of the flock, a visibly secular state (with one exception. See below), the relentless and well publicised filling-in of God-gaps by scientists. We need Hollywood to step up to the plate and deliver one of their apocalyptic tales, this time of a comprehensively creationist US and its ability to respond. Atheists and moderates must promote religious and philosophical education in schools.

The LOW pressure points must be considered as well. Somewhere for the herd to run. Away from the wolves. Moderate churches and communities must somehow be favoured. The alternative to the tiny cosy world of creationism is not necessarily the draughty make-of-it-what-you-will world of atheism. I am happy with small steps. Dissention even in the smallest degree is a seed of future knowledge.

Teratornis 101: Perhaps my view of creationists is slightly more nuanced than that of many on this site because…....

But you gave me no nuances here.

All I can see from the NATURE of your posts is a tendency to appeals from authority, a belief in sermonizing and a surprisingly narrow view of the issues.

.….I used to be one.

Hmm.

Teratornis, I am a great fan of the MEAT of your posts. The last thirteen years of my working life have been dedicated to the cause of energy efficiency. (My personal life too.) MY slogan would be "Every dollar spent on energy efficiency yields a seven times bigger reduction in oil consumption than a dollar spent on alternative energy sources." And whilst the specific number is moot, and rather old, the general substance of the argument is still valid. The way forward as far as I see it, is that energy efficiency has the capacity to absorb substantial oil cost hikes until it meets alternative energy production costs. The increased infrastructure costs will be offset by the benefits of the new business created by it and the export potential of energy efficiency products and services. There. Easy. Yes, it might get as bad as another world war, if we're not careful, BUT its not going to stop me focussing, on this website, on what I perceive as a greater threat.

I'd take a world in which everybody stopped driving cars and became a creationist

So, you'd defer the evil day of an energy catastrophe for a mere 20 or 30 % extra time in favour of intellectual extinction?

No. There are plenty more catastrophes to come other than oil. Big ones, not simply world war sized. The only insurance mankind has had against such threats is his passion to survive and his creativity. Passivity and acceptance will kill us more surely with only a tiny version of that asteroid strike of yours.

I mean, really, how is it logical for me to care what happens after I die?

Teratornis, you don't have kids do you.

Being selfish for the moment and setting aside the shit I might bequeath my children's children, the sheer fucking-hell-of-a-cultural-desert brought on by a Creationist state (we have some examples of these already) would bring out in me a morbid fascination with the actual possibility of Armageddon and what I could do to hasten it.

247. Louisiana's latest creationism bill moves to House floor

Comment #186558 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 3:24 pm

Teratornis

If we are as ignorant about creationists as fundamentalists are ignorant about homosexuals

And yet the average American is as likely sitting next to a creationist as anyone else, given the statistics.

I really don't buy this unknowable / unknown creationist thing. I've known several American creationist and debated them, well before I even had an inkling of being "interested" in the subject. American creationism spews out of the God channel on my UK TV.

248. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #186538 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 2:33 pm

Who is that?

Count Alessandro di Cagliostro, mystic and con artist. Some have said it might even be a picture of me.......

249. Louisiana's latest creationism bill moves to House floor

Comment #186535 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 2:19 pm

http://zarbi.livejournal.com/128357.html

Good stuff Zarbi! I trust its OK to half inch some of this material? I have a few gaps, someone has badly filled with Theist Tetrion. They need clearing out and filling with the real mccoy.



EDIT Much Binding in/on the Marsh?! Steve you do not look your age.

250. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #186512 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 1:12 pm

MaxD.

Sorry, distracted by my kids and Jerry Coyne. All of them were hilarious, but Jerry Coyne took the cherry with the unintelligent design flaw of the laryngeal nerve, down from the brain, looped under the aorta and back up again, a pretty major detour for a giraffe. He was devastating. I just imagine tx, hands over ears, eyes closed singing and rocking to keep the nasty cold heartless impersonal truth at bay.

My clipboard was empty, I'm afraid. I'll try and reconstitute it after more domestic duties.

EDIT I've PMed you.