Comments by Kardashovel

Comment #160711 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 10:03 am

I was basically good without God for over thirty years.

I am now basically good with God.

I don't know any serious person (Christian or otherwise) that would assert that one cannot be good without God.

252. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160676 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 9:15 am

I feel the same sense of rightness or goodness I once felt when I was a believer seeking to be truly guided by God, urging me toward a life without this idea of God within me.

It shows. God bless you.

253. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160669 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 9:11 am

I mean the scotch. I haven't read Laphroaigman's posts. But I am more likely to so now since he, for one, demonstrates the ability to speak in complete sentences and not act like a total asshole.

254. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160665 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 9:08 am

And I am a big fan of Laphroaig.

255. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160660 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 9:02 am

I think we are called to put our idea of God, the incarnation of God in our minds, upon the sacrificial alter.

That is what I'm doing here.

Thank you for humoring me and cautiously standing in my corner, Dr. Benway. But I do not think it is working...

Some people ask me what I think or believe, and I tell them. Then they (or other drive-by detractors) ridicule my belief as being unsupported, without ever having asked for the support or reason.

I'm afraid that there are just too many people in the room that are here to fight, and not to discuss. Ignoring them is more difficult when those who genuinely wish to discuss matters will refer to them in their discussion. I think I should wait for a quieter time.

256. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160645 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 8:53 am

hungarianelephant: I love the avatar.

What happens when they contradict what someone else's still, small, inner voice says?

If the advice concerns me, I should listen to my voice; if it concerns you, listen to your voice. If it is a source of conflict, then discuss and justify based on laws, conventions, and ethics...

257. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160634 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 8:47 am

What if God asked you to place your God upon the alter and slay Him, might you have faith enough for that deed?

Hmmmm. Well the canonical answer would be that I do it every day. But the sin-fixation popularized by Paul is a little shallow for my tastes.

I think that the primary reasons for Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection was to illustrate that death is an illusion and that it is important to non-violently defend your ideas and speak truth to callous power, even to the point of being executed.

If God asked me to kill Him, I would not do it. I don't have it in me. The only way that I could kill is in defense of myself, my family/friends, or an obvious innocent.

258. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160625 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 8:40 am

Has anyone noticed that we've been getting a lot of trolls on the site recently? I wonder what the cause is.

Isn't it obvious? God is pissed off at you!

259. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160620 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 8:38 am

How do you know this is the Holy Spirit. If that is the case, Jesus desperately wants me to start drinking beer again.

So I have a vested interest in giving this voice some legitimacy.

Holy Spirit is a concept that hints at the connection between consciousness and physics. It is the connection between each of us and the group-consensus projection of reality by our observations.

How do I know this? It is a belief. I don't know it. Since I don't really understand the mechanism, how could I know it? It is a belief that I stated to my Quaker friend.

260. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160598 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 8:16 am

All of creation will pull itself up from its bootstraps. This is not a sky crane... it is the only way that something as complex and beautiful as we are can come from nothing.

261. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160597 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 8:15 am

I am afraid you are talking in vague terms. There is no evidence that we are steered away from primitive because of God, on the contrary, God becomes more civilized in our image after we have progressed. You have the cause and effect reversed.

I am constantly accused of being vague here, but in fact I have answered these questions before in this forum. I don't blame you for not knowing that, but still it is frustrating to hear people's evident expectation that I post a 12-page exegesis so that you may know exactly what I think in detail. If I did so, would you read it? Please stop the accusations of my being vague. We're talking about God, the universe, and everything.

As for God getting more civilized as the result of our development, you are now beginning to see things my way... although that is not quite succinct, since I do not actually believe that we are God... just His distant ancestors.

262. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160592 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 8:09 am

Quetzalcoatl, I do not believe that God is omniscient.

Nor do I believe that He is omnipotent... He is simply arbitrarily knowledgeable and powerful. Big difference.

Death needs time for what it kills to grow in. God needs time for what He grows to show Him.

263. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160588 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 8:04 am

Dr. benway:

There are ways to talk about the inner voice without conveying the notion that this voice has some relevance to what others ought to do. Imagine trusting God to guide others as he guides you.

Where have I said what others "ought to do" as justified by my belief in God?

Imagine that God's guidance is gentle and subtle, like a radio station you can hardly hear. A charismatic, dominant personality claiming to hear God's voice can seem louder than the still, small voice within. And so people listen to the other human being rather than the Holy Spirit. Thus they become spiritual slaves to another human being.

I am no louder than any other voice here, Dr. Benway. I would advise anyone that listens to me to listen intently to their inner voice. It is the Holy Spirit.

From now on, I will think of you as a Quaker, as you say. Peace to you.

264. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160574 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 7:55 am

Bonzai:

It was a "test", but a test for what?

Faith. God knew that Abraham had some faith based on his willingness to speak with Him and follow commands (although he wavered some with Hagar).

In the context of a direct and continuous physical presence, "faith" is closer to its root meaning of "trust in", and does not carry the connotation of "belief in". If God is talking to you on a daily basis, of course you will believe He exists. But will you trust Him and obey Him? If he says that you will have a son by Sarah, even though she is barren, will you then take Sarah's council to accept a surrogate?

God was looking for the man who's descendants would be His archetypal people. He needed them to have strong faith (which I believe is in fact a physical phenomenon and is likely inheritable).

So he set for Abraham the most difficult task imaginable: to slay his own son.

I have a son. If God told me to slay him, I don't think I could do it regardless of any perceived pay off. I would sooner kill myself, and I would tell God to choose another with more faith.

But I am a modern man, with the context of Christianity to guide me... Abraham's context was much different. In general, this is my feeling about much of the Old Testament. It must be understood in the context of humanity lifting itself out of animal ethics, and into harsh legalism and an organization that permits cohesion and technical progress.

It isn't pretty, but God could not steer us from primitives to Christians by snapping His fingers. The process is still ongoing, and it is still subject to massive setbacks.

265. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160552 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 7:38 am

Steve:

The problem here is that some people seem to think that they are experts about their own minds. This is odd, really, as they will admit to not being experts about their own bodies.

I don't think that I am an expert about my mind or body, but what I experienced does not call for such qualifications.

If I get a sharp pain in my side, I would consult a doctor before I jumped to any conclusions about the cause. But if I look down and see an arrow sticking into my love handle, I won't need an MD to know the source of my problem.

266. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160292 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 10:40 pm

I'll take it under advisement.

Dr. Benway, What do you think about the context of your comments with folks like alovrin telling me that my worldview "sucks"?

Is my approach equivalent to his?

I say that someday you'll believe, because you will meet God in person. I do not say that God will cast you into hell fire (neither does the bible). Nor do I say that you should do this or that in this life because of my belief.

Personally, I think I'm harmless. Not so?

267. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160287 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 10:16 pm

Jimmy Swaggart ministered to the prostitutes...

Did he do so publicly, and rebuke those who would stone them? Or did he do so in private shame, in a stunning act of hypocrisy (while paying them for their service with the monies from his sad followers). Comparing Jesus to those clowns is just crude.

C'mon dude. I can understand why you are disdainful of modern Christianity, such as it is. But you'll get no quarter from me if you can't stick to the evolving topic.

Jim Baker, Ted Haggard, Benny Hinn, Moses, and Abraham are not Jesus, and so are not relevant to the question I asked you.

Jesus told his followers to abandon the things of this world, gathered them unto him if memeory serves. Told them if they loved their families and friends more than he that would have more trouble getting into his happy after death party I think. Its been a while since I've read it. Anyway that seems a might culty to me.

Jesus told a rich man to give all he had to the poor, not to Jesus's disciples. He did not make a general prescription of this, but rather, it was in response to this man who had claimed to have done all he could to be pious, yet still held his wealth as a god before God. He knew that the man would never adequately love God when faced with such distractions; rather the man was following the other commandments out of fear.

Jesus said that loving Him would set people against their families, as their families recoiled from the ideas of the Christian faith. But it is a commandment to love God with all your heart, so it is true that loving your family more would preclude joining the kingdom of heaven. However, it is a serious and common mistake to assume that people that do not go to the kingdom of heaven will go to hell. I discussed this issue in some detail in my earlier posts.

For example, I do not believe that anyone here will go to hell, and I am not convinced that I will make it to the Kingdom of God. Most people will be resurrected to a middle ground. Jesus was quite clear on this, as portrayed in the gospels; but it does not serve the Church's power structure to avoid threatening people with hell-fire. Such threats are a sad abuse, but they are not what Jesus taught.

268. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160279 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 9:55 pm

I don't know alovrin. Profound questions, tho.

269. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160277 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 9:45 pm

Maybe God does like the odd sacrifice. Maybe one day soon God'll be asking Kardy for a sacrifice or two as well...

God has asked me to sacrifice some time to spread the faith. That is why I'm here. I wonder if He approves...

270. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160275 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 9:43 pm

God did tell Abraham to kill Isaac.
And many other human sacrifices occur in the book to placate God or protect his servants.

Aside from the test of Abraham, God did not command human sacrifice in the Bible, (except for Jesus). But God did command more than a little smiting, back in the day.

As for the story of Abraham, you'll note what God did when he saw that Abraham's faith was strong enough to carry out the deed... He staid his hand. No one staid the Romans hand when God offered His son up for sacrifice... but God's faith in us was strong enough to permit it to happen.

Of course, when you know that death has no sting, it puts matters in some perspective... but crucifixion is nasty nevertheless.

Which cult leaders are looking to get crucified while their followers just watch in terror guys?

271. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160274 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 9:40 pm

Jesus didn't seem very interested in engaging in the world did he?
"Don't cast your pearls before swine."

I guess it is a matter of perspective. Jesus ministered to prostitutes, tax collectors, the impoverished, as well as to the rich and famous of the time. He debated the Pharisees, and even walked straight into the temple of Yahweh to overturn the tables of the money changers. He did council his disciples to avoid spending their time on recalcitrant unbelievers though, as you have pointed out. I suppose that he knew that time is limited and to grow the faith he needed to focus on the useful vectors.

~~~

And wasn't Jesus being self-serving in the same way. Looking at the modern prophets it isn't hard to take a cynical interpretation of Jesus's story. In fact it is alarmingly easy.

OK, since turn-about is fair play, it is my turn to accuse you of vague hand-waiving. Tell me more about your cynical interpretation of Jesus... this should be good. And no fair bringing the RCC into it; I want to know how Jesus was a cult-figure. Bring it.

272. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160265 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 9:18 pm

I am surprised you can't really entertain that notion Kardashovel.
Maybe it is all in your head?

Do you really think that I have not entertained that notion?

David Koresh and Jim Jones were interested in controlling people, which casts doubt on their motives. I have no such interest, unless you count my fierce adherence to the wish that I can control my own destiny. To answer your question, I certainly don't think that God was talking to Jim Jones when he insisted that everyone drink the magic kool-aid (or probably anytime before that).

I don't know much about Koresh, except that what our government did at Waco was a travesty. Based on what little information I do have, I do not think that he and God had a very clear understanding. God wants us to engage the world, while we avoid the trapping of the world's power structures. That is not compatible with the idea of an insular cult.

273. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160260 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 9:11 pm

Your "one day you will see" statement means, effectively, "my inner voice of God is better than your inner voice of God."

You likely will say I'm reading things into your words. I would say that you haven't thought through all the implications of your position.

I believe that I am correct, and I am responding to dialog as if that were so. I have thought through the implications, but I cannot embrace your notion that I should retreat back to agnosticism (which is effectively the view that you are endorsing).

Now I will accept that my religious beliefs should not be the basis of laws that govern you; but if you intend to silence me from stating my beliefs because it might intrude on your personal space, then all I can do is ask why are you talking to me?

274. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160256 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 9:07 pm

Your god doesn't appear to have this. Sounds more like some sort of inter-galactic space/time traveller needing to get things done using whatever resources are available. Hardly god-like, is he?

I guess that depends on your preconceptions. I think that the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient god is the minority view among theists, historically. That is a straw-god... the god of the gaps.

It is interesting that you accuse me of "Mysterianism" when I am giving much more specifics about my belief in the mechanism of creation than anyone I've ever met.

275. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160252 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 9:00 pm

You will just have to forgive me if me I find your talk of subjectivity a bit uncompelling.

I'll try not to take it personally.

276. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160251 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:58 pm

Goldy is, however, after something that doesn't involve the mysteries of a Delphic chronicle.

Yah. I can think of only one way to summarize an ontology in just a few words: "It's all in my head."

277. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160249 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:57 pm

It is actually in God's interests to remain hidden.

Uh oh. You may have been infected.

278. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160248 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:56 pm

Because it explains my comment to PBUM that you questioned.

279. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160242 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:48 pm

I think that Goldy is hungry too... let me assemble my thoughts.

He made us, apparently, so freedom is a moot point, is it not? He made us becasue he needed us.

Perhaps you have forgotten my discussion of the mechanism of creation. God "made" Himself in the future. We are a part of that process. He needs us like you need your ancestors...

Again, you're making God do things through the medium of us - hardly freedom, is it?

No it is definitely freedom, considering the way in which things are accomplished. He can't expect space-faring, time-traveling civilization to evolve from a bunch of automatons. Now that doesn't mean that He can't force a series of events, but it is more about persuasion.

280. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160241 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:46 pm

How well you know PBUM is beside the point. You can never see the world through the eyes of another, nor can I. You can never bear witness to PBUM's relationship with God. And no one can bear witness to your inner relationship with God.

Except for Richard Dawkins and the majority of posters around here, right Dr. Benway?

While it is true that I cannot fully share your experience, I think you'd agree that I know what you mean when you say that you're hungry. In any case, leaving aside our commonalities, I am not saying that I can know about PBUH's innermost thoughts. I am saying that I believe the day will come when there is no denying that God is real, and that there will be plenty of scientific evidence to back it up, in the form of His presence before you.

Under such circumstances, only the insane or hopelessly solipsist individual would reject God. So, assuming that I am right, it has nothing to do with my knowing PBUM's innermost thoughts. It is just a matter of my faith in God's plan.

281. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160231 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:39 pm

I suspect that what appears to be a vague, vague deism is all that is left for a thoughtful believer to have. That seems to be, sorta, the position you have staked out.

Deism? Hardly. I believe that God is quite active and that the creation is ongoing, thanks to us.

I discussed these matters in detail in my first appearance in this forum; but since I have spoken with you I cannot see how you would draw the conclusion that I am a deist. Deists do not believe that God would deign to talk with them.

As for being vague, I have tried to answer any questions or criticisms directly. I have not yet written my exegesis, but when it happens I'll look you up so that you have more to go on.

282. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160228 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:34 pm

Simple words, skip the mystery, the "God works in mysterious ways", etc. If God has a plan, why not just do it?

Our freedom is part of the plan. He cannot "just do it". He needs us to do it.

283. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160222 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:29 pm

How do you know, for example, that it is not God's will, that for PBUM God appears as the God who is not there?

That may very well be, but I hardly know the guy so I can't say. In my own case I will say that it served God's purpose that I should be raised as a skeptic.

284. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160219 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:25 pm

When someone calls god-belief a "delusion" they are commenting on many people's inner relationship with God. Have you taken this serious matter up with Richard Dawkins?

I am not proscribing any behavior for PBUH, nor am I asserting any authority over him. Please explain yourself, Dr. Benway.

285. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160217 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 8:19 pm

But the relationship between PBUM and God is private. You cannot experience it. When you deign to speak of it, you intrude where you do not belong.

Are you serious? I've been repeatedly mocked as a schizophrenic in these parts, when people are discussing my inner voice.

PBUM, and all of us, will act according to our conscience, and his beliefs are not my business unless he engages me in a discussion about belief (which he has). If you believed in the God that I believe in, then it has nothing to do with PBUM, personally. It has to do with God.

Moreover, you have now commented on my personal relationship with God repeatedly, while asserting that I cannot take the same liberty? Look to your own floors... they need sweeping.

286. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160205 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 7:56 pm

The irony here, Dr. Benway, is that you have twice now pretended to know what I "really mean" due to your preconceptions of theists...

You are the one trying to tell me what I know, not the other way around. Check it.

287. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160201 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 7:54 pm

kardashovel:
I have faith that time will change your mind on this matter. We shall see.

You know something about inner voice of God in others. Remarkable. Perhaps we ought to ignore our own inner voice and listen to you instead.

Again with the hasty conclusions, Dr. Benway. I simply have faith that God will do His will. I don't "know" about the inner voice of God in PBUM or in you.

I certainly would not advise you to listen to me (or anyone) before your inner voice... but I am happy to talk to you if you will listen.

288. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160199 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 7:49 pm

Hello Goldy! Lumping me in with the other theists, eh? I thought we had an understanding. As for your links, I am well aware of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hamadi find.

Perhaps you've noticed that I have commented several times about my distaste for Paul, and my unwillingness to treat the canonical Bible as the single (literal) source for understanding Christianity.

I simply see the Bible as being good enough for God to use it to accomplish His plan.

289. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160190 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 7:38 pm

Good Lord, what is this csrbm character talking about? What sane person would advocate for basing ethics on evolution? Steve said all that needs to be said in post #1208.

Evolution by natural selection has been on the wane for thousands of years (at least in species with which humans interact), and especially since we have managed to efficiently harness fossil fuels... it is far from the dominant process determining extinction. Now that we are full into the genetic revolution, natural selection is gonna see a brave new context, no doubt. Neolamarckism. I shudder.

290. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160188 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 7:38 pm

And I am quite amused at Corylus' offer to argue as a mercenary.

Arh come on. Wouldn't you want me on your side?? Ok, I'm not as scary as some on here, but I am persistent...

Tell you what, find me someone on Vox Day's blog willing to offer that sort of assistance without prompting and I might just go play....

I was just referring to our last conversation... but since I had incorrectly guessed that you were a mercenary male, I suppose I should not be surprised that you would suggest playing God's advocate around here.

And of course I would want you on my side; you are one of my favorite commenters here, or anywhere. Placid in the face of acrimony, lucid in the explanation of your thoughts, trenchant at finding the pivot points. First rate intellect, as well as a gentle spirit.

Moreover, if you really want to invade Vox's sandbox, I would be honored to be your second. But if the subject is to be religion I can only argue from the standpoint of an agnostic atheist... I cannot fairly represent someone that emphatically believes that there is no God because that is simply foolish...

I would suggest that it would be more entertaining to debate the ilk on a matter of politics or culture though. But as your second, I must follow your lead. Just let me know when we go into battle, and I'll try to arrange my time to provide as much support as possible.

291. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160187 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 7:37 pm

Bonzai:

I think kardashovel is trying to yang your chains here.

He is not talking to you guys, but talking down to you. He speaks with a smug and condescending tone, writing cryptic one liners that may appear witty to himself but never really engages in making any substantial point. It is all along the line of "Oh, you are so narrow minded, of course you don't get it" but never telling you what "it" is. When pressed he would tell you to ask Jesus himself.

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion. But I would ask you, do you think that I am being evasive or trite? I am just trying to talk to folks.

Can you give me an example of my condescension? Is it condescending to write disparagingly of someone who is reading the dialog with everyone else?

MaxD, what do you think Bonzai is on to here? Has my post-sushi performance cleared my good name, or am I just yanking your chains?

292. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160184 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 7:35 pm

PBUM

Well no. You can define hungry as being in need of food (or feeling that you are in need of food). Against that standard you can then call yourself hungry. This is not the same a being somehow cosmically hungry, outside of any reference point. All mathematical proofs are predicated on axioms, and so similarly are not universally true.

:) A subjective experience can be an objective truth. Sometimes we do not know our minds; sometimes we cannot trust our eyes. But other times we know with certainty what it is that we experienced. And even if there are many people in our world who are more hungry than I was, I submit to you that it is a fact that I was hungry before I ate that boat full of sushi. You may doubt that I was actually hungry, and suspect that I was lying about my perception of hunger... but in fact I was hungry, and your doubt does not change that fact any more than your inability to observe my voracious feast.

Likewise, you may suggest that the verity of a mathematical proof depends on axioms, but I submit to you that if those axioms are stated as conditions, then the truth is unconditional. Modus Ponens simply is, and no one including God can change that.

~~~

With a somewhat open mind, tempered by your own experience and reason

Well, exactly. Using reason, scientific enquiry, evidence and Occam's Razor. And where would that lead?

Well, in my case, it has led to theism. But my experiences are quite different from your own, I guess. I have faith that time will change your mind on this matter. We shall see.

293. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160024 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 2:28 pm

I'd like to ask how you think another person should evaluate this claim.

With a somewhat open mind, tempered by your own experience and reason. Or you go the route of Diacanu, who should really change his avatar to this.

294. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160018 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Objective truth of what? Turing's proof that there is no general algorithm to determine if a program will halt? Or, that killing bunnies is wrong?

Certainly mathematical truth. But also the type of truth that science is designed to uncover. And, also the subjective truths that satisfy my own standards of proof, though perhaps not yours. For example, I can state that I am truly hungry, even if I can't prove it to you.

Who wants an Asahi?

295. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160013 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 2:17 pm

How else should I read:

I'm not sure... but I suspect that if you knew Jesus we would not be having this discussion.

?

As me saying what I suspect... not what I know. Is this really difficult to understand?

You want to snare me into saying that I know what is in your mind. Why on earth would I step into that trap?

296. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #160008 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 2:09 pm

I wondered if I had somehow written in some kind of transparent font. At that point I realised further debate was probably futile.

That is funny. I like you, Steve; even if you think I'm an asshole.

Since I'm in the business of giving opinions, I will state that your first example is well off target. Vox is presumably aware that the dreaded inquisition is not a war either, yet he dealt with this issue in some detail in his book. Perhaps your assertion that Vox made it all about wars is the actual straw man argument here...

I'm not going to touch your second example right now, but I may come back to it. Suffice to say that I think Vox's refutation needs some work... but I can't agree that he is engaging in a straw man argument. Especially considering that this is one of the few areas of the book where I think he actually goes on offense rather than simply cataloging the errors of the "Irrational Trinity". Thus it is one area where he exposes his flanks to more interesting criticism than such a casual dismissal.

Anyway, perhaps he will discover that you "finally answered his challenge" to name a straw man argument, and he'll respond. That would be entertaining.

Who else wants sushi?

297. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #159997 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 1:54 pm

So you are saying I don't know Jesus. How can you know that?

Does that really resemble what I said, Peacebeuponme?

Do you think it is important to be honest? If so, why?

298. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #159992 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 1:51 pm

You see, Dr. Benway... I am in support of your own personal relationship with god, even if it is the god who wasn't there.

But I do believe in an objective truth, even if there can be no perfect understanding.

~~~

So nobody wants to discuss reincarnation? That's just as well, I'm getting a craving for sushi.

299. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #159985 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Perhaps, Diacanu.

300. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #159984 by Kardashovel on April 13, 2008 at 1:45 pm