251. Fleabytes

Comment #134122 by scottishgeologist on February 27, 2008 at 9:44 am

NMcC

That Lane Craig stuff is remarkable:

"even if he was transported back 2,000 years so that he was able to sit outside the tomb of Jesus and witness the fact that no one came out alive over the requisite period, he'd still believe that Jesus was resurrected on the grounds that he'd simply assume the devil was playing a trick on him? "

I am reminded of another faith head, Kurt Wise. Remember RD had a go at him:

Wise wrote

"if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate."

Dawkins responded that "this leaves me, as a scientist, speechless. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have a mind capable of such doublethink."

I think there comes a point where you simply have to give these people a pat on the head, send them on their way and ignore them.

Life's too short, the Universe is too interesting, just think the time spent arguing with these 'tards could be better spent looking through a telescope, a microscope or just walking a beach observing nature.

Mind you, this site is kinda addictive - and that Galapagos stuff is superb....


SG

252. The Giant Tortoise's Tale

Comment #134121 by scottishgeologist on February 27, 2008 at 9:39 am

This tortoise stuff is fascinating. Much better than fleas!

Just noticed on the Galapagos Conservation Trust page:

http://gct.org/statements.html

Look at the picture of the tourists - it looks a bit like the "Darwin Evlution" graphic:

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Technology/nc_Evolution_080103_ms.jpg

Ok, I'll shut up....

:-)

SG

253. Add another flea to the list...

Comment #133423 by scottishgeologist on February 26, 2008 at 7:15 am

All this Tea talk - reminds me , I seem to remember, of a Monty Python sketch which involved the phrase "more tea, vicar?" Possibly followed by, "more what?" "more fucking tea" and so on.

Cannot find it anywhere - was I imagining it?

Seem to remember laughing like a drain about it... or maybe that was the 'shrooms....

Anyway, reseatch DID throw up this tea drinking vicar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s9SYX7TSJ0

Class!

:-)))
SG

254. Fleabytes

Comment #133235 by scottishgeologist on February 26, 2008 at 12:11 am

PJG

hadnt seen that Not the 9 o Clock news sketch. One of the funniest things I've seen in ages!

Thanks for that one!

Its in the smae vein as NTNOCN take on the "General Synods Life of Monty Python" in the wake of the Life of Brian carry on

Rowan Atkinson also does a very good "Are you a gay Christian?" sketch


Thing about a lot of this humour is, it may be early 1980s but its still funny as anything and just as relevant today.

:-)

255. Fleabytes

Comment #132689 by scottishgeologist on February 25, 2008 at 6:07 am

Philip

I never properly understood this "Fundamentalist2 stuff. After all, surely a "Fundamentalist" is soemone who strongly holds to core beliefs and rules. What is actually wrong with that in a religious sense?

If I was a fundamentalist regarding say, golf, it would mean that I stuck strictly to the R & A rules, never cheated and insisted that everyone did likewise. I would be seen as a fair golfer with high principles.

Likewise, If I stuck strictly to my political beliefs, never wavered or compromised over core tenets and fought fairly and bravely for what I believed, then in parliamnetary terms I would be deemed a "worthy opponent", a man of principle.

So why do people like DR see the word fundamentalist in peremptory terms. Preusmably he sticks to the fundamentals of the christian faith, the key tenets, the uncompromisable doctrines that define calvinistic orthodoxy.

It should be a badge of honour, to be a fundy!

Of course the word fundament is a bit iffy:

From a dictionary:
Noun Singular, fundament, Plural, fundaments

1) foundation
2) The part of the body upon which one sits; the buttocks; specifically, the anus.
3) underlying basis or principle for a theoretical or mathematical system

Maybe that 2nd definition gives a clue... :-)))))

256. How he was sentenced to die

Comment #132667 by scottishgeologist on February 25, 2008 at 5:24 am

War on YouTube. Utterly ridiculous. In Scotland at any rate, "tube" is used as an insult "yah f****** tube!" (Ususally pronounced choob)

Seems very appropriate here

Bunch o' tubes.

Wonder what else they'll try to censor? About.com has got some very funny cartoons they probably dont like:

eg:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/bltalibansingles.htm

:-)))))

257. Fleabytes

Comment #132624 by scottishgeologist on February 25, 2008 at 3:58 am

David, you said: "the best part is that most of the places I am invited to are not churches "

Borders, Starbucks? Bookshops - you havent got a book to sell have you?

Dundee Univ Christian Union - (Billy's hilarious "peh eating fundies...")

Queens Univ Christian Union....

And I see that you are appearing at the "Church Without Walls" festival at Ingliston together with Alister McGrath:

http://www.cwwresources.org.uk/ng/programme/prog2.htm

Maybe not churches per se, but these last 3 venues were definitel pre-disposed to your position!

258. Fleabytes

Comment #132613 by scottishgeologist on February 25, 2008 at 3:36 am

AllanW said; "Just show us the evidence then David."

Its this point about evidence that the whole debate ends up getting hung up on.

Just how do you define supernatural evidence? The naturalist worldview ends at empiricism - the supernaturaalist goes beyond that. Problem is, once you start "proving" things you are back into the empiricist camp again

I dont know if you CAN ever resolve this. However, there is one area at least where we could perhaps appreciate evidence.

Heidi Baker is an evagelist, works among the poor in Mozambique. Ultra-charismatic, her and her husband claim to have experienced "raising from the dead"

Check this article:

http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=321

Now. If a preacher were to pick up the shattered remains of a suicide bombers victim in Baghdad - a clearly dead body - limbs off, decapitated, eviscerated - and then invoke the name of Jesus and then Bingo! The preson revives, gets up and walks as if the killing never took place. That would be something else. Esp if it was verified, captured on film and un questionable.

Theres a lot of corpses in the Middle East, lying there because of religion. And there's no shortage of charismaniacs and pentecostals worldwide who claimm all sorts of amzing powers through the Holy Spirit

Put the two together and lets settle this once and for all. Just think, hundreds , 1000's of dead people all brought back to life - in the very heartland of the Abrahamic religions - wow!

I have a funny feeling that I may be waiting a long long time....

David . Care to comment? I am being serious. Demonstrations of "dead raising" that I have just mentioned would sway me. No doubt.

259. How he was sentenced to die

Comment #132552 by scottishgeologist on February 25, 2008 at 1:19 am

Ah yes, theocratic persecution and killing of dissenters. How about this:

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory"

John Calvin, justifying the killing of Servetus, who was burned at the stake for denying the trinity. Burned with a copy of his "heretical" book chained to his leg.

Muzzies are doing today what our lot did 450 odd years ago.

260. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #131982 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 6:22 pm

Steve

Just picked up on this.

No you didnt make yourself look foolish. I'll tell you what you did -you made us stop and think, and check what we had said.

You had legitimate concerns - valid ones IMO.

That's good. The more we think about what we say think and do the better.

Just, in the passing, like to say that I really enjoy reading your comments. They are always very level and reasoned.

Kudos, take care.

SG

261. Fleabytes

Comment #131979 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 6:09 pm

NMcC

"***king hell, I'm impressed! Did you actually type Tiocfaidh ar la off the top of your head? "

No problem! I actually speak Scots Gaelic fluently, so the Irish version is no big deal!

Strange isnt it? Irish Gaelic is associated with nationalism/republicanism. Scots Gaelic is best represented in the Western ISles where David Robertsons Free Church holds sway - the "last bastion of the gospel"

If you think you understand this stuff, then ipso facto, you dont!!

Cheers / Slainte

SG

262. Fleabytes

Comment #131970 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 5:40 pm

NMcC

Hi! It was definitely 1988. Try a wikipedia search on "IRA gibraltar" or stuff like that.

THere's all sorts of IRA folk song stuff about this episode "Ballad of Mairead Farell" and songs like that

You know, I remmber thinking at the time, she was really quite pretty. How the F does someone like that get embroiled in all that stuff? She led the female hunger strikers in their "dirty protests".

Same age as myself. Now just worm food in Milltown Cemetry.

Poisons everything, so it does.

Tiocfaidh ar la? Hopefully the day "la" that comes is a secular, peaceful one.

SG

20 years ago.

Doesnt seem like it - must be getting old....

:-)
SG

263. Fleabytes

Comment #131959 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 5:17 pm

NMcC

On the N Ireland theme, it will soon be 20 year s since what I think was probably the absolute low point in "The Troubles" - the killing/ execution (take youre pick) of 3 IRA volunteers on Mar 6th in Gibralter. The funerals which were attacked by Loyalist Michael Stone on the 16th March . The subsequent funeral during which 2 British Army corporals were lynched.

Yes, religion poisons everything.

264. Fleabytes

Comment #131954 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 5:05 pm

Hey, guys, chill...

Since I am partly at any rate, responsible for keeping this going, mea culpa, and sorry. OK?

Anyway, there is probably a cultural thing at work here - I mentioned the Scots-Irish thing earlier. Growing up against a background of bigotry , you tend to develop 1) a thick skin and 2) a dark sense of humour.

This may or may not resonate with others who know nothing of it. In West central Scotland where I grew up, the religious thing was pretty bad. Not as bad as in N Ireland, but probably not far off it. The situation today is much improved (because of the growth of secularism and the shrinking influence of the churches) but there is still a hard core of tribal nut jobs.

To me, that is they key thing - it may have started off as reliigous, but it is now merely tribal. A point Dawkins himself has made.

SG

265. Fleabytes

Comment #131943 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 4:46 pm

NMcC, this is copmpletely off topic, but , in 1981, when Bobby Sands died, I was actually working on an oil rig off the W coast of Ireland. The Irish guys were great - being Scottish I got on great with them. Just one thing troubled my Proddie soul a teenie little bit. When it was anounced that Bobby Sands had died, they had a 1 hour strike and ran a black flag up the derrick!

I'll never forget it.

But that was politics, nationalism, as much as religion.

SG

266. Fleabytes

Comment #131929 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 4:04 pm

Billy,

Must say I did wonder about that - named after a mixture of Orange William and "Slimmer of the year 1981"

I suppose that is the ultimate in ecumenism!!!

Only kidding!

:-)

SG

267. Fleabytes

Comment #131924 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 3:55 pm

NMcC,

Yes, you are right - on the QUBCU web site, there is actually an apostrophe - "God, where is the evidence?"

As opposed to "Jesus H Christ , where's the f****** evidence?"

Man.its late, this stuff is addictive.

I still reckon that humo(u)r is the best weapon

Mind you, Steve does have a point - some humo(u)r can go a bit far. Doesnt trouble me though - maybe its a Scots - Irish thing - I was brought up on the wrong side of the tracks with a bottle of Buckie in one hand, wearing a Rangers strip, and singing "the Sash"

Sad isnt it?

Cheers!

SG

268. The coming religious peace

Comment #131920 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 3:46 pm

DBA:

Interesting that you say that religiosity is on the increase in the USA

That stuff I posted earlier which came from Mark Driscolls video suggests otherwise

I have to say, I was surprised by Driscolls comments - certainly the perception we have here in the UK is that religion in the USA is very healthy, esp among the evangelicals.

Many evangies here look enviously at the USA in this respect

SG

269. Fleabytes

Comment #131906 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 3:11 pm

NMcC

Room G06, Peter Froggat Centre
Monday 25th February, 7pm


Cheers

SG

270. Fleabytes

Comment #131903 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 3:06 pm

NMcC

Got it! Here are the details:

http://www.qubcu.com/page.cfm?id=63

"God where is the Evidence?"

Note the statement: "A night exploring the debate of science versus faith, examining the question of whether science has 'buried God' "

"science buried God" ? Lennox's book title perhaps?

David rates Lennox's book very highly on Amazon.com Expect to hear more of it.

SG

271. Fleabytes

Comment #131898 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 2:56 pm

NMcC

Hi. According to Davids own posting (on this site), it is on Monday, at Queens University.
Dont know much more than that though

SG

272. Fleabytes

Comment #131886 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Darcy - worth pointing out as well that Robert Mugabe is a Catholic.

273. Fleabytes

Comment #131877 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Paula,

If you go here:

http://www.christianheritageuk.org.uk/Media/AllMedia.aspx?speaker=David Robertson

you'll also be able to chill out and relax while listening to him in Cambridge.

Where is he next? Belfast?

Wonder if he does one of those "tour T shirts", you know with all the venues on the back? I can just see it now:

"GOOD EVENING BELFAST!! Are you ready to RAWK?!!!"

:-))

SG

PS: Oh yeah, sorry, long, long overdue but thanks, kudos and respect for a cracker of an article. Must have taken a fair bit of time. Well done!

274. Fleabytes

Comment #131874 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Billy

I found out the semantic gymnastics that they go through to get this "Pope as antichrist" in the WCF to fit in with "obedience to ordination vows" and its a cracker.

Apparently, its the DOCTRINES in the WCF that they subscribe to. And guess what, "Pope as Anti-Christ" isnt considered a doctrine! (WCF? - WTF more likely...)

There is a reference to it in one of David's own articles here:

http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2001/may01b.htm

where he gives a book review. Here is the text:

"An example of this is on p.49. Murray knows that the question referred to is that of whether the Pope is the Anti-Christ. He also knows that most Free Church ministers do not accept this as a 'doctrine' of the Confession and that we are not committed to this by our ordination vows. Yet he mentions neither and rather seeks to give the impression that Prof. Macleod was opposed to the Westminster Confession and his ordination vows."

So there you have it. We're all pwned by Davids sematic gymnastics....

275. The coming religious peace

Comment #131822 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 11:49 am

There is an interesting video on YouTube of pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church, Seattle. He is talking about "church" and church planting in America. Near the start of the vid he comes out with a lot of stats:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=E8aZXeFRSBA

Driscolls stats:

1) Upto 80% of "church plants" fail
2) 80 % of all churches in America are plateau'd and declinig
3) Half of the people who claim to go to church actually DO go,
4) The average church is 40 to 50 people
5) 3500 churches dying every year
6) If trends continue, by 2050, there will only be half the number of Christians in America that there are at present

Note, this is America he is talking about.

Dont know where he gets these facts from, but given that he is one of the most influential pastors in America (he's not one of the Falwell / Robertson extreme fundie tyes) then he doesnt really have anything to gain by massaging these figures IMO.

Oh yes, and David Robertson (Wee Flea) did an intervies with him and featured him on the cover of his church's Jan 08 Magazine:

http://www.freechurch.org/pdf/monthlyrecord/january08.pdf

276. Fleabytes

Comment #131760 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 6:46 am

And while I am on a roll, if you want scripture, then THIS is how it should be, (COmpletely off topic I know, but some cheering up is needed I reckon)

The Book of Ehud, from Private Eye:

Chapter 94

1. And it came to pass in the days when Ehud ruled the Land of Israel as Sharon lay sleeping in an coma that the Hamasites came privily by night and stole from the Israelites a soldier whose name was Shalit and led him away into capitivity.

2. And Ehud counseled himself thus, saying.

3. "What shall I do? Shall I smite the Hamasites like unto Sharon? Or smite them an hundredfold also like unto Sharon?"

4. And he decided to go for the hundredfold option.

5. And so he sayeth unto the Children of Israel, "Gird up thy tanks and go forth into the Land of Gaza and smite everything you see until this captive is returned to us."

6. And they did even as Ehud commanded.

7. But, guesseth what? The captured soldier returneth not.

8. And, meanwhile, there was great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the Land of Gaza, which was turned into an wilderness fit only for the cockatrice and the ant.

9. Now there dwelt in the Land of Lebanon certain Hizbollites who did look upon the works of the Hamasites and sayeth one to another:

10. "What the Hamasites have done, let us do also. For it seemeth an goodly idea.

11. "For as sure as the noonday sun riseth over the Cedars of Lebanon, the Sons of Israel will be consumed by wrath and their judgement will leaveth by the window."

12. And it was even as the Hizbollites foretold.

13. They also crept privily by night (see-eth above) and led certain soldiers of Israel into captivity.

14. The Ehud waxed exceeding wroth, like unto the hornet when a man whacketh it with his flip-flop.

15. And Ehud again took counsel with himself (see-eth above again).

16. And, lo, yet again he reasoned that smiting was the only answer, but this time it would be an thousandfold.

17. So he commanded the Israelites: "Go forth unto the Land of Lebanon and lay it waste like unto Gaza, except more so, for these people learneth not their lesson.

18. "Unlike myself."

19. And so it came to pass and the Israelites smote the Hizbollites, and they smote back at the cities of the Israelites and meanwhile the Hamasites did some smiting as well.

20. And the Hamasites and the Hizbollites rejoiced, saying, "It worketh every time."

21. But Ehud hearkeneth not, and sayeth unto himself:

22. "Perhaps I should extend the smiting to the Syrianites and then the Iranianites and all the rest of the Arabites.

23. "Until there is no one left to smite.

24. "And then the children of Israel may dwell in peace. Just as our forefathers didn't."

Absolutely priceless...

277. Fleabytes

Comment #131758 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 6:38 am

Steven Carr: Ah yes, the talking donkey. Amazing isnt it? Shrek, bronze age version....


There is also that ludicrous passage in Matthew 27 52-53: 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

An incident which would have been quite remarkable. Completely unknown outwith Matthews 'shroom-fueled book of fairy stories. No other gospel writer refers to it, neither does any secular writer.

OK, absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence but in the case of this story, come on, it happened at the time of the resurrection, which the other gospel writers cover. And it features wholescale "resurrection" of other people. If that isnt significant, I dont know what is. Mind you Matthew screws up a couple of times, eg this cracker:

"Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value"

It wasnt Jeremy (Jeremiah) It was Zechariah....

Zech 11: 12-13: 12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD."

Pwned!

278. Fleabytes

Comment #131749 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 5:57 am

David seems to have an issue with materialism / empiricism /evidnece etc

Of course, he is right in some respects - "God" cannot be proven empirically. At least I havent heard of anyone finding out what Gods height, weight, specific gravity, or anything else is. Even the worst charismaniacs dont even go that far.

But, if God is supernatural, then his existence or power can surely be shown by supernatural means. By demonstrating something so awesome that science falls silent. (Of course, demonstrating fluorescence of radioactive material under UV light would have seemed "supernatural" to any who saw it 2000 years ago...)

Anyway, heres a test. David. You talk to God dont you? Presumably he answers? OK, try this short prayer "Dear God what is the square root of 15,241,578,750,190,521 ? Good. Now tell me it and I'll write it down. I'll check it later. Amen"

Repeat daily for several other very large numbers, the square root of which cannot possibly be known unless you have a Core 2 Duo brain.

Get the calculator out and check

Now, trivial I know. "Putting God to the test" I am sure. Why not? his followers claim that he is amazing, awesome, fantastic, omnipotent, omniscient, awesome (yes I know, they love that word... ) and he's great! Even the muzzies think so! So, I say, put him to the test, see if he is what he claims to be, think you're smart, God? Eh? Fancy a square go? Aye right, pal....

But IF and Really IF, you were to pray for simple answers like these (not too hard for God surely?
After all: Jeremiah 32:27, 17 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? 17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee)

And were to repeatedly get the right answer, then I'd have to say, yes, there is something here, something I might have to re-think.

Of course, we know what the situation really is dont we? Nothing fails like prayer!

279. Fleabytes

Comment #131724 by scottishgeologist on February 23, 2008 at 4:25 am

Epeeist:

However, this entity of yours supposedly interferes in the material world. This being so, asking for physical evidence is perfectly appropriate.

Spot on comment. And nowhere does this "interface" of the natural and supernatural have its most obvious expression than in the "power" of prayer.

Which has been shown time and time again NOT TO WORK. No more than would be expected anyway other than by normal statistical chance.

Despite the bible making it unequivocally clear that things asked for in prayer get given:

"Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours" Mark 11:25

"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you" John 15:7

Of course the faith heads get round all this by saying that we shouldnt be asking for material things, things for our own satisfaction and so on. I sa BS. Heres why:

Go along to any of the churches in Davids denomination and listen to the prayers - what are you likely to get. "Prayer for members of the congregation" "Prayer for othe churches" " Prayer for "travelling mercies" " Prayeer for those "laid aside on beds of sickness" (I LOVE that one....)" What else, oh yes no doubt there will be prayer for succesful "missions" for "keeping people safe" for "staying the hand of evil men" and so on cliche after cliche...

But, theres a win-win get out clause to all this BS - you will ALSO hear the line "if it be in accordance with thy will..." mentioned in prayers

In other words, "God, give us this , help us with that, dont kill this person" . "But if the worst does happen, well its your will, so thats OK"

Sad thing is, otherwise intelligent people swallow this BS by the bucketload

Prayer does not work. It is one of the biggest lies in the Bible.

There is the oter get out clause of course. God has actually got 3 answers to prayer (some dude isnt he...) Yes, No and wait

In other words:

1) you pray for it and it happens, sing PTL, raise your hands act like a prat and claim that god is great (sorry that was the muzzie version...)

2 If it obviously doesnt happen (eg the person travelling in a car gets wiped out in an accident - no "travelling mercies" there) then God is saying no. His ways are above ours. Still to be praised for his immense goodness though. Allahu Akhbar!

3) If you pray for it and it doesnt happen soon, but POSSIBLY might happen, then God is saying wait. Be patient. My time, not yours, earthling.

There are actually people who seriously believe this BS.

280. Fleabytes

Comment #131381 by scottishgeologist on February 22, 2008 at 11:32 am

MPhil - Monty Python - brilliant - had completely forgotten about that one.

Speaking of all things Pythonesque and Philosophy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQycQ8DABvc

Cheers
SG

281. Fleabytes

Comment #131270 by scottishgeologist on February 22, 2008 at 6:44 am

The churches have a membership that runs into millions

That is certainly true. And most of them havent a clue about what they believe in or why. Even theists get despondent about "bible illiteracy" among EVANGELICALS would you believe!

Church is little more than a cosy middle class social club for a lot of people. Thats all it is.

1) Quote from the Barna Group:

"In August of 2005, Barna reported that less than ten percent of born-again Christians held what he termed a "Biblical worldview." Based on his survey, very few grasped the nuances of scripture or believed in "Absolute Truth" any more than their secular counterparts; the "Body of Christ" had been infected with the virus of relativism, a wasting disease.

"Although most people own a Bible and know some of its content," reported Barna, "our research found that most [professed evangelicals] have little idea how to integrate core biblical principles to form a unified and meaningful response to the challenges and opportunities of life

2)Banner of Truth website:

"The demise of this practice [the daily 'quiet time'] contributes to the perceived trend of growing biblical illiteracy among evangelicals. The distinctive spirituality of the mid-twentieth-century conservative evangelicals is being abandoned, presumably as no longer helpful"


On a different point:

Billy, Steve Zara (sharp as ever!) beat me to it - it is http://web.archive.org as he points out. A great place to waste gazillions of hours poring over old web sites.

SG

282. Fleabytes

Comment #131112 by scottishgeologist on February 22, 2008 at 1:26 am

Clearthinker wrote: "Personally I have a lot of time for people like 'J'"

And then posts THIS diatribe on his own site in response to comments bt "J" and "miller":

http://www.fcosonline.org/index.php?topic=5.msg162#msg162

Just read that for a minute. J and millers original points were put quite nicely and politely. And then get answered by snide condescending sarcasm.

283. Fleabytes

Comment #131101 by scottishgeologist on February 22, 2008 at 12:59 am

Steve Zara wrote:

"What people need to realise is that David has his niche. Go to the Free Church of Scotland website, and he is everywhere. This is his territory; his living. He defends that territory by controlling discussion"

I know that there are people in David's church totally dismayed by the way that his church web site is little more than his own plaything.

Anyone visitng that site would think that the F C of S was OBSESSED by Dawkins. Go to this URL:

http://www.fcosonline.org/index.php?board=2.0

And note the stats. Says it all really doesnt it?

One other point. David Robertson says he invited Richard Dawkins to write an article for his magazine which he would NOT edit, and include in its entirety. This raises several questions:

1) NOT edit? So lets just say that RD said something about "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully" OK? David would let that in UNEDITED?

2) So lets say that RD did write a response and then get it published. What then? Presumably David would write a response to it. Then what? RD to return the favour, ad infinitum. Or maybe, just maybe David would "get the last word" He likes to do that. Thereby giving the impression that RD got pwned.

3) If RD wast to write in David's magazine, David could claim it a some sort of coup "Worlds leading atheist writes in church magazine!" Shock, tabloid style horror!!! One up for the F C of S and more kudos to David. No, dont rise to that bait...

And finally, that "Christians believe in free speech" remark. Puhleeeze. David, try this: get a time machine . Go back to Calvin's Geneva. Stand up publicly and disagree with his theology. See what happens. Servetus did more or less that and got burned....

284. The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes

Comment #124792 by scottishgeologist on February 10, 2008 at 9:17 am

Yes, the "amputee argument" AFAIAC, this is the "killer" argument against faith healing. At a stroke, if this were to happen and to be independently verified, and REPEATED, it would kill atheism stone dead.

Isnt it funny, that when someone DOES get cured by faith healing its always something like depression, or a vague pain somewhere, or something like that.

Wonder if anyone has ever had a miracle cure for impotence.... :-))))))

SG

285. The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes

Comment #124664 by scottishgeologist on February 10, 2008 at 2:39 am

I remember visitng Lourdes many years ago - I was working in nearby Pau for a while. 2 things really struck me about the place:

1) the sheer tackiness of all the souvenirs and stuff like that - it really was quite remarkable the industry that had obviously grown up round about it

2) More seriously, the huge number of really, really ill people looking for some sort of cure.

The tackiness is fine - if thats what people want, market forces and so on.... the second point however shows something almost pitiful, being played out against the background of tackiness.

Grim

SG

286. Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'

Comment #123731 by scottishgeologist on February 7, 2008 at 3:01 pm

It's actually quite simple: You come to our country? Great, lets see what you can contribute. After all, we are all immigrants (if you go back far enough)

Oh, right, you have a problem? You dont like our laws? You want you own "ghetto mentality persecution jurisprudence" Fine. Fuck off back to where you came from... and take your version of the "god delusion" with you.

Simple, really...

SG

287. Happy Birthday Josh Timonen!

Comment #118883 by scottishgeologist on January 31, 2008 at 5:42 am

Hi Josh

Have a good one - you sure have put a lot of work into this site - much appreciated. As previous posters have pointed out, its a daily fix for me as well!

Cheers!

SG

PS: Here's a good quote re age:

"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do."

(From Warren Miller)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Miller_(director)#Well_known_quotes

288. A Letter From Hell

Comment #116817 by scottishgeologist on January 27, 2008 at 2:19 pm

Paula pointed out:

The Church of England officially denied the existence of hell in 1996. The Catholic church denied the existence of limbo in 2005

What amazes me is how, if you went back a few years or so, you would find these ideas being hammered out as absolute truths.

So does this mean they are admitting they made mistakes? If so, how did they come to the conclusion that these things are no longer valid?

Did "The Lord" proclaim a "word" to some of his priests and ministers (Sorry guys, you're going to have to change the script a bit - no more hell, no more limbo.. catch you later...)

Or is it like so much more of this stuff - the "word of man" rather than the "word of god"?

And where does it actually all end? If these concepts are "no longer required" then how much of the rest of it is? Actually, when the churches start coming out with this sort of revisionism, its actually good for the cause of rationalism.

Even people like Mark Driscoll are troubled by the gender issues in Pauls letters. And Emergent leaders like Brian McLaren get all wobbly at times. Check this out, its a real eye opener:

http://www.beliefnet.us/story/173/story_17371_1.html

(If Christianity is true, People I love will burn in Hell)


Keep going, guys...

SG

289. A Letter From Hell

Comment #116266 by scottishgeologist on January 26, 2008 at 5:09 am

Steve said:

"Perhaps some Church leaders may be persuaded that this video is embarassing for Christians in general."


Its a good point - I think the whole "doctrine of hell" is a major no-go area for a lot of churches.

The real hard core fundies love it, and will preach on it regularly. The sort of calvinist background I grew up in was full of this stuff. There are still a lot of churches who are right into this, although I suspect that in the UK, they are very much a minority

Liberal types simply dismiss the "doctrine of hell" with their "lovey dovey gentle Jesus hippy in a kaftan" new age stuff. God has too much love - he could never do THAT to anyone... The fact is that the character in the bible who has most to say about hell and damnation is Jesus himself!

The ones who shift about uncomfortably and get all queasy and embarassed are the ones in the middle - the conservative (but not fundie) types - the ones that are "bible believing" but hey, maybe the earth is OLD. The ones that claim to be evangie, but dont really talk much about it. They claim to be evangie and "bible believing" but still have women as elders.

These are the ones who get most uncomfortable with this doctrine. To be frank, I think most of them would not approve of this GodTube video. Most of the mainstream evangies I know would not use this type of material.

The problem for these people is again, the founder of their faith had a lot to say about hell and damnation. Its a bit like the Phelps thing - most people find it repellant, but lets face it, Phelps is quoting from the same holy tome that the other evangies use. Same with this "doctrine of hell" stuff. The video may be repellant - but its what the "good book" says.

290. A Letter From Hell

Comment #116135 by scottishgeologist on January 25, 2008 at 3:30 pm

How about the sound of ACTUAL VOICES from Hell? This GodTube thing is pretty amazing:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=505c33a5007bc38d456c

Here of course, is Snopes.com's take on things:

http://www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.asp


One final comment, in Scotland the word Tube is used in a pejorative sense to call someone "a f*cking tube" or a "stupid tube" is quite bad. Of course, it is not so much pronounced "tyoob" (or toob as the Americans say) so much as "choob"


Anyway, as far as GodTube is concerned it seems a particularly appropriate word.....

Cheers

SG

291. A Letter From Hell

Comment #116032 by scottishgeologist on January 25, 2008 at 10:30 am

mintcheerios

Good point. What is interesting is that in modern translations of the bible, the word "hell" does not occur in the Old Testament. Neither does Paul directly mention it in his writings

Considering that supposedly the vast majority of humankind are headed for this place of eternal conscious torment, you would think there would be a little bit more said about it.

Actually hell is one of these "achilles heel" notions that makes a lot of christians uneasy. The real fundies love the idea. The liberals basically deny it. Its the ones in the middle, the "bible believers" that dont consider themsleves "extremists" or "fundies" that have the hardest time with this.

Of course they get round about it by just not mentioning it.....

See here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1658115,00.html

Quote:
"The doctrine of hell is downplayed by most of today's churches even by those who still believe in it. It isn't viewed as very politically correct even by a new generation of more theologically conservative ministers," said Dr Stoddart, who commented that there was a conspiracy of silence on the subject."

292. A Letter From Hell

Comment #116027 by scottishgeologist on January 25, 2008 at 10:17 am

Cartomancer

Thanks for the correction there! - that Gille de Rais was definitely a sinister character.

Great thing about this site - you learn so much about stuff you wouldnt ordinarily come in contact with - Wonderful!

Cheers

SG

293. A Letter From Hell

Comment #115949 by scottishgeologist on January 25, 2008 at 5:41 am

Peacebeuponme asked:

"I'm pretty scared knowing its not just fire, but brimstone as well. Has anybody ever used that word in another context?"

Very good question. Since it is an ancient word for Sulfur /Sulphur then its only really found in old fairy stories.

You know how these fundies like to speak in KJV language - So saying "brimstone" instead of "sulfur / sulphur" all fits in with that nonsense.

Of course, there is actually a web site (well, rather a parked domain name) called smellthebrimstone.com owned by guess who, Westboro Baptist Church... Go on, have a look - the 4th sponsored listing on the holding page amused me....

Of course, the association with hell and sulphur / sulfur probably goes back to the days when people experienced volcanoes erupting - as well as molten lava, there would be sulfur/sulphur and putting two and two together, all this hot stuff from underground, which is where hell was after all... well its obvious innit?

And of course the bible talks of raining fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gommorah....

I remember reading a story about Bluebeard the Pirate (Pirates eh.....? FSM anyone? Ooh ahhhr...) anyway, apparently Bluebeard would lock his crew in the hold, put brimstone in and then set it on fire "to give them a taste of what hell will be like"

Personally, I think these abusers who put forth the sort of stuff in this "GodTube" video should have the same thing done to them.

294. Banned From Church

Comment #115075 by scottishgeologist on January 23, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Oh boy, we are heading back to the 18th century here! There used to be a tradition in Scotland of the "cutty stool" of repentance. "Sinners" usually of the sexual variety had to sit in this in front of the congregation and get harangued by the minister.

Info on the cuttie stool here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuttie-stool

And...
Great cartoon of it here:

http://www.stooryduster.co.uk/pages07/cutty_stool.htm

Ahhhh, the unalloyed joy of 18th century Calvinism...

Cheers!

SG

295. Ken Ham in Leicester April 2008

Comment #115001 by scottishgeologist on January 23, 2008 at 12:12 pm

Billy, Interesting point about Ken Ham and Biblical inerrancy. Of course, these guys have a get-out clause - they refer to innerancy in the ORIGINAL manuscripts (which are not extant, and therefore the whole notion is unfalsifiable)

Check this out for some serious word-play on biblical inerrancy:

How do you explain the difference between Luke 3:36 and Gen. 11:12?

by Dr Jonathan Sarfati

The difference is that Luke 3:36 has the extra name Cainan. Some skeptics have used this difference to attack biblical inerrancy. However, it is important to note that Biblical inerrancy, derived from the teaching that Scripture is 'God-breathed' (2 Tim. 3:15–17, cf. 2 Pet. 1:20–21) and 'cannot be broken' (John 10:35), has to refer to the original autographs that God directly inspired, not to copies or translations. The Cainan difference is not an error in the original autographs of Scripture, but one of the extremely few copyist's errors in the manuscripts available today.

Full URL:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3748.asp

By the way, several years ago, I can actually pinpoint this article as the one that started the process of faith-erosion within myself!!! Thanks, AIG, you are actually useful....

296. The devilish church practice of exorcism

Comment #114989 by scottishgeologist on January 23, 2008 at 11:35 am

GoneGolfing

Yes, "Prosperity Theology" thats the name of the game. To the extent that "Pastor Gas" (Robert Tilton) reckoned that poverty was BECAUSE of sin.

Tilton (Farting Preacher)here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpNNADzzuz8

ROFL or what???!!!

But seriously folks, there are some seriously weird people out there who believe some seriously weird stuff. Check out this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCXVB4Hun44

Tilton is ridiculous. This guy is dangerous

297. Ken Ham in Leicester April 2008

Comment #114861 by scottishgeologist on January 23, 2008 at 4:14 am

Jeepjay's concerns are valid I think. What needs to be pinned down , if possible, is just how much support does this sort of thing actually have in the UK?

Last years Scottish tour seemed to be targeted at the sort of venues where he woudl be able guarantee a decent turnout (Doing a talk on 6 day creationism in Stornoway isnt exactly likely to fail) It would have been interesting to see exactly the numbers he got in Aberdeen as I reckon it is Scotlands (and possibly the UK's) most secular city.

If he does get big turnouts, is that because there are a lot of YECs in the vicinity, or is it because they have travelled far to get to it?

If the venue is an evangie church, then I would expec him to have a decent number. Not sure about other venues.

A lot will depend on how the various networks of churches promote it. The Scottish tour last year was promoted on lots of para-church sites.

And of course, the question is, even if Ken Ham doesnt get great numbers of attendees, does that mean that creationism is still insignificant? Could be the man himself that puts people off! After all, David "Wee Flea" Robertson said so on this very same site!

So not all evangies are pro-Ham or indeed pro-YEC.

All very complicated and probably quite difficult to get answers to much of this.

298. The devilish church practice of exorcism

Comment #114827 by scottishgeologist on January 23, 2008 at 1:08 am

Note the key phrase in this whol hideous article:

"Her Pentecostalist priest"

That f****** "P" word again. And I dont mean priest. Man these people infuriate me with their

Pentecostalism is spreading like the cancer it is in the 3rd world. It seems to really catch on in nations and places where there is already a strong element of native folk religion, spiritism and all that sort of thing.

These people live in a fantasy world.

299. Ken Ham in Leicester April 2008

Comment #114821 by scottishgeologist on January 23, 2008 at 1:00 am

Sounds like this is the second part of his UK campaign. He was in Scotland last year - I dont think his vist was exactly a stunning success. You can actually read his blog here:

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundtheworld/2007/09/06/on-the-road-in-scotland-continued/

Some of the comments are very telling. Eg:

"[Christians] are not giving to the church or Christian organizations. We need to remember how blessed we are in the United States compared to people over here, including the struggling churches and Christian organizations. Many churches are dying—there's no doubt about it. There are only a few good churches here."

Or how about:

"We were just about to leave Aberdeen and travel 1–2 hours to our hotel (it was around 11pm) when 3 teenage atheists came down to the front. The girl in particular said that I had no right to tell them what's right and what's wrong, and that she was going to live the life that she wanted. And how dare I come here and tell her that she can't do this or that"

Actually, the overall tone of his blog, IMO, is one of despair!

The venues that he chose for this tour were small-ish charismatic, evangie , non-traditional churches - the sort of places that get known as "christian centres" rather than churches.

It'll be interesting to see how he gets on on this tour. Keep us posted, English friends!

Cheers
SG

300. 'Gospel of wealth' facing scrutiny

Comment #105096 by scottishgeologist on December 30, 2007 at 2:50 pm

Roger

Thanks for a lot of extra info and clarification there! Regarding that Ken Ham tour of Scotland, from reading Ken Hams own blog, it wasnt exactly a resounding success:

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundtheworld/2007/09/06/on-the-road-in-scotland-continued/

I particularly like the bit where he was told where to go by "atheist teenagers" in Aberdeen!

That Scottish tour was described by him as "This is probably the most grueling UK trip I've done. I'll be honest—I'm tried, and have a terrible cold. And my computer crashed. It's almost as if it's been a spiritual battle day after day."

And how about:

"Many churches are dying—there's no doubt about it. There are only a few good churches here."

The "church" scene in Scotland is quite fascinating - Roger - you should get to know it a bit more! It varies from the most fundy church in the UK (The Free Presbyterians - not to be confused with Ian Paisleys lot - they are liberals in comparison!) right through to places like Aberdeen which I reckon has to be the most secular city in Britain. I worked in the "Granite City" for several years (offshore rigs) and I never ONCE came across anyone who "went to church" let alone a "born again".

Mind you, I spent a lot of time in pubs, clubs, casinos, hanging out with offshore types.....


Cheers!

SG