401. The Out Campaign

Comment #59937 by Yorker on July 31, 2007 at 7:21 am

59. Comment #59849 by tuibguy

There you go SavageMickey! Tuibguy will eat at your place and his invitation to the picnic should enable you to make more friends who might visit your restaurant. I would eat there too but 4K miles is a bit far!

This is good stuff, roll up folks, give some help to our fellow atheist who's lost some religite customers because he was honest with them.

Another idea, publicity is always good; if a planeload of atheists from the UK flew all the way to Minneapolis-Saint Paul to eat at an atheist's restaurant that would make a terrific TV story, they'd be all over it! No doubt hard to arrange, but not impossible. There must be easily enough atheists in the UK who would be willing to spend a few hundred to take part in such a publicity deal and have a short holiday to boot. Great for you, great for us. Of course we all know who would make the ideal customer but I can't suggest him. A more modest idea would be to give us the name of your restaurant, you might get some tourist customers that way, it might also give you some fame. Give out a few buttons that read; "I ate at Atheist Mickeys".

Take my advice Mickey, think positively, it will fill you with enthusiasm and drive that will rub off on others. Imagine the sign above your new future establishment that says:

"Welcome, you made it to the world-famous Atheist Mickey's"

402. The Out Campaign

Comment #59848 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 9:04 pm

52. Comment #59839 by CruciFiction

I watched the video and forced myself to read some of the comments. I've noticed before that YT attracts the thickest of the thick and the sickest of the sick, but some of these creatures are among the worst I've seen. Very noticeably, the religite pups were the vilest, stupid, and most perverted of all. This atrocious behaviour needs to publicised and rammed down the throats of religites, let them see the words of their own brainwashed little bastards. Let's make thousands of copies and flood newspapers, TV and radio stations, schools, churches and government offices with these despicable examples of the garbage spewed forth by these minions of Jesus.

403. The Out Campaign

Comment #59842 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 8:19 pm

51. Comment #59838 by savagemickey

I sympathise with your dilemma and even if there were enough atheists in your catchment area to make a living from, how would you entice them? Offer a discount to atheists maybe, not very wise since you really want everyone to come. Rewrite your menu giving subtle names to items that would mean nothing to religites but would be understood by atheists? I can't see a quick easy answer for you but there must be something that can be done.

Come on folks, why don't we have an ideas brainstorm, see if we can help Mickey with his problem. This is what we need to do, give support to each other.

404. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59840 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 7:51 pm

258. Comment #59818 by Maverick

"I'm atheist and would never wear that t-shirt. For a start, it's shit. What purpose does it serve?"

Your first post on this thread is #258 and you don't know the purpose it serves? You must be king of the JPDR (Just Post Don't Read) brigade!

"But i'm sick of the marketing on the top of the front page"

This site was set up as a hub for atheistic people and to promote atheism, how the hell do you think it can do that without some marketing? We all like the articles and videos but you're the first person I've seen who doesn't seem to grasp the point of it. I don't like everything that happens here, but I know the site won't change to suit me, and neither it should! You'll just have to realise that goes for you also, so why don't you just enjoy what it offers and say nothing or simply don't come here?

405. The Out Campaign

Comment #59827 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 6:57 pm

39. Comment #59824 by Bonzai

"I think atheism is probably correlate to education level so it is plausible that atheists as a group have higher education level and hence better off."

Not in the UK, wealth has more to do with location. A thickoid living in the South of England may well be better off than a university educated Scottish atheist.

406. The Out Campaign

Comment #59825 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 6:51 pm

33. Comment #59815 by konquererz

"I don't believe in invisible things" which usually gets a chuckle. Then they try to be cool about it and say something to the effect of "ha ha, like bigfoot and the lockness monster?" and I say "yeah, those too".

What?? do you mean The Loch Ness Monster? How dare you say it doesn't exist!! Are you trying to rob my highland countrymen of their tourist dollars?? :)

407. The Out Campaign

Comment #59823 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 6:39 pm

8. Comment #59778 by ricey

Sorry, ricey this is irrestible.

"That said, if "A" draws attention to science and reason, perhaps there is a case to be made for it. But its dicey."

Maybe ricey, it's dicey, but so what? We can handle dicey ricey, let's just get on with it and be less nicey nicey ricey.

408. The Out Campaign

Comment #59820 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 6:33 pm

7. Comment #59776 by Déjà Fu

"I don't think any books from Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Stenger, Hitchens, Sagan, et al, will overcome the embedded generation's brainwashing as children."

A couple of years ago I would've agreed with you, but now I think you're wrong, I've seen evidence that books can change minds, especially, but not exclusively, in younger people. My own cousin used to argue the merits of religion with me, I told her not to take my word for anything but to promise to read the books I gave her. You guessed it, she is now an atheist.

409. The Out Campaign

Comment #59819 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 6:15 pm

Good presentation Richard and diplomatically engineered to give the least offence whilst remaining firm on the main point; ever considered a political career?

I liked your TED speech when you mentioned the need for politicisation of the atheistic movement, this latest idea is certainly a step in the right direction.

410. The Out Campaign

Comment #59814 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 6:04 pm

I applaud those Americans who have decided to come "out" in the hard states, I understand how you feel.

I once gave a week long seminar in the Southern Indiana/Kentucky border area, the first day all went well, many delegates were keen to tell me of their Scottish ancestry and they took me to lunch and dinner. During after dinner conversation someone raised the subject of religion and I got quite a shock. They began to tell me how they admired the devout Scottish christians and automatically assumed I was one of them, when I said they were describing a nation unknown to me and that I was myself an atheist, well, my words seemed as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit. It dawned on me their notion of religion in Scotland was the kind the pertained in the days of John Knox.

I decided that a diplomatic change of subject was in order so I indicated my desire to see the fossil beds that are close to the bridge over the river that runs along the border between Kentucky and Indiana, it might be the Ohio river but I can't quite remember; locals from that area will know the place I'm referring to. I was hoping maybe one or two would offer to accompany me on an evening visit to the site, all I got were terse replies that indicated a lack of interest in fossils.

For the rest of the week I ate lunch and dinner alone, no more invitations were forthcoming. Had it not been for the fact that their employer had paid for them to attend my software seminar so they could learn how to use it, I think many of them would have skipped the course after the first day.

That was my first experience of rampant religion in the USA and it took me aback because I'd already worked in Florida for several years and most of my colleagues were democratic and atheistic. I had another more serious run in with religites in the USA but that's another story that I won't bore you with just now. Perhaps due to the efforts of you American "outers", I'll notice a difference if I have to visit that part of the country again.

411. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59750 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 2:20 pm

247. Comment #59743 by mjwemdee

I advise you to attend. You have to decide whether it's worth risking their friendship over. Where I come from hardly anyone I know is religious, christenings are more of a tradition that anything else; many parents are weddings, funerals and christenings only churchgoers. They know I'm an atheist and accept that so I attend christenings. If you feel that such events equate to child abuse however, then in all honesty you must tell them that and decline their invitation, you'd probably lose them since they would take that as an insult.

412. Come Out!

Comment #59742 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 1:47 pm

100. Comment #59738 by Roll

Quite funny!

"However, I have no wish to pass on my genes, so I will be wearing my Y-fronts over my vest for the remainder of my life."

Glad to hear it!

413. Come Out!

Comment #59740 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 1:42 pm

91. Comment #59713 by Greybishop

"Imagine what would happen if we put it on a flag instead of a t-shirt."

It would never happen, this lot agree on only one thing; God is unlikely, anything else, forget it. If atheists did produce a flag it would be as a result of a tight vote and designed by a mega-committee, it would probably look like an abstract artist's worst nightmare!

414. Come Out!

Comment #59737 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 1:32 pm

97. Comment #59733 by bayareadude

I agree with what you're saying. Although I like Ellen Johnson and have fantasized about bonking her, I must admit her organisation seems stuck in a rut.

415. Come Out!

Comment #59735 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 1:26 pm

I hope RDF will be taking plentiful supplies of all atheistic promotional materials to all conventions this year, including Beyond Belief etc. Time to get this show on the road, we've had enough talk, let's forget the same old tired arguments that we keep winning. Leave the "I want to be aloners" in the the dust, they will suffice as cannnon fodder for the religites as they have done for 2K years. I detect the birth pangs of a real movement, start the juggernaut engines, let it ROLL!!

Onward atheist soldiers, marching as for Reason!

416. Come Out!

Comment #59731 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 1:02 pm

26. Comment #59448 by gcdavis

"Now if we had more high profile people asserting atheism, we might make more progress."

Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens...not high enough profile for you then?

417. Come Out!

Comment #59725 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 12:29 pm

I'm with PZ here, if you fear being attacked over something on your shirt, this movement is not for you. I'd advise you to take up embroidery or something. To those who fear being fired, that would be illegal, perhaps we could set up a fund to give financial support in lawsuits.

418. Come Out!

Comment #59723 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 12:20 pm

6. Comment #59341 by Enlightenme..

You need to change the wording on your shirts my friend, nuns don't wank, but I'd bet they plink!

Wanking is a male pastime, females plink.

419. Come Out!

Comment #59721 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 12:10 pm

31. Comment #59469 by gcdavis

"I'll be surprised if RD dons one."

Stand by for a surprise then, I'd bet that pretty soon a pic of RD wearing one will appear. Can't you see that he HAS to wear one?

I for one will happily make a wager with you on it; what figure do you suggest, £500, $1000? you name it.

420. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59719 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 11:45 am

244. Comment #59715 by d4m14n

Good post! An aggressively positive stance - I like it.

This shirt thing is generating a degree of negativity like The Blasphemy Challenge did, my first reaction to that was cagey but then upon reflection, I backed it. All the crap about wording and lettering is superfluous, you are right, visiblity is the most important thing, which is why I said earlier that if anything, the shirt is not making a clear enough statement. But it's a start, that's the main thing.

421. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59674 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 6:14 am

Richard Dawkins has stated publicly that atheism needed to become political and for that to happen money would be required. I agree with him. He further said that if he had made as much money from book sales as Hawking had, he'd fund it himself. If selling a few shirts with a contact web address on them gets the ball rolling and money coming in, what the FUCK is wrong with that?

Since the world's two wealthiest people are also atheists, perhaps Richard would consider approaching Mr. Gates about funding; that might be worth a try, Bill might even fancy a political career himself.

But failing that, starting in this small way is better than nothing and if humankind has a future it needs to overcome all the dangerous nonsense it presently embraces, a united atheist movement is a step in the right direction. Of course, that's only my opinion but one I'm convinced of and can think of no argument that would change it.

Any cause good or bad will have nay-sayers and fence-sitters, they are of no consequence, we can't afford to waste time and energy on them, if a political movement gets started they'll have to make a decision, join or not. All who join will have to abide by policy, or go become a republican, conservative, democrat, lib-dem or whatever. In my own small way I'm trying to whip up support in my local area, I do it because I must, life has taught me that talk is of no value unless followed by action. Not all, but most of my actions have met with success, failure does not deter me because I know I have at least tried, nothing is more to my distaste than feeling strongly about something and doing nothing about it. I recommend this approach to an atheistic movement and hope it succeeds, I for one, would dedicate time, energy and money in furtherance of a stated political objective. I know that many here will not but perhaps a few will.

Perhaps we are poised at brink of a history making moment, who knows? I know this; history will remember only those who had the vision to take action.

422. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59669 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 5:11 am

218. Comment #59589 by jaydon64

Has anyone heard the phrase "United we stand, divided we fall?"

Yes, I've heard of it and used it a few times as have others here and I think you mention it to encourage us to behave in that way. I hope I'm right because I agree with you; what sane person would not?

423. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59668 by Yorker on July 30, 2007 at 5:02 am

222. Comment #59598 by Dr Benway

"I recommmend James Surowiecki's book, The Wisdom of Crowds."

I'd rather read "The Madness of Crowds" by Charles Mackay, Sagan reckoned it was one of the best books he ever read.

424. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59577 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 6:46 pm

215. Comment #59573 by MrEmpirical

Well, I suppose I could tear you a new one but what the hell, the words of Feynman are still ringing in my ears from having just watched him. He's made me realise all over that crap like this isn't worth much effort because you sound just like the type of people he hadn't much time for, "nutty" he called them.

I can't remember now but you seem to be smarting a little from something I might have said earlier, to be honest, I can't be arsed looking back over old posts to find out what your problem is, you'll just have to fume a little longer till you get over it. I have a terrific dream subject planned for tonight so I'm off to bed to let it unfold.

425. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59565 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 4:40 pm

213. Comment #59563 by Veronique

Hi, Veronique,

Many thanks for your kind wishes from Mullumbimby, I'm just going to record that Feynman classic "The Pleasure of Finding Things Out" which is about to be broadcast on the Teachers Channel here, then it's off to bed. Catch you later.

426. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59547 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 1:36 pm

205. Comment #59545 by EEguy

Hello EEguy,

Glad I was able to give you some fun, hope you enjoyed yourself today :)

427. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59537 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 12:29 pm

186. Comment #59509 by Henri Bergson

Henri, you've already had something of an ass-kicking from many on this thread, are you looking for another? You behave as if you live your life in isolation and appear to have an exaggerated sense of your own value.

428. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59508 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 9:30 am

Dinner is cooking, but the thought has just occurred to me that seeing a blank T-shirt seems to be rare these days. Ah well, enough atheistic interplay today, it's back to beautiful reality for me.

429. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59506 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 9:20 am

119. Comment #59399 by Beachbum

Just noticed your post, a good one. I was caught up in an afternoon's entertainment here and didn't notice until now, you sound like a well balanced person, my kind of man.

Hungry -- must eat, but no grasshoppers or grubs a nice piece of steak I think, very tasty, I feel sorry for vegetarians!

430. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59498 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 9:00 am

165. Comment #59473 by MrEmpirical

"For all we knew, IQHQ could have worked at the CIA headquarters, i.e. an "intelligence headquarters", so to jump to the conclusion that his name is self-aggrandizing or even self-referential was inappropriate (yes, we now know that his name IS self-referential, but no one knew that originally)."

Give me a break, do you think that anyone had worked at CIA HQ would have chosen such a name? What's the likelihood of that? Anyhow, it's irrelevant since I evidently guessed correctly that the name was self-referential.

Sadly, standards seem to be slipping here at RDF, I yearn for the old days when wankers were thin on the ground, I hate to say it but I'd rather read The Wee Flea or Bizzaro Dawkins than some of the dorks frequenting this site nowadays!

431. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59494 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 8:47 am

170. Comment #59485 by pzmyers

"Damned atheists. You can be so self-defeating."

How true PZ!

432. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59490 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 8:44 am

155. Comment #59454 by IQHQ

Oh dear, this is getting tiresome, stop being such a baby by trying elicit the support of others to bolster your lack of confidence, be a man -- I assume you're male -- and stand up for yourself like one. In spite of your allegedly high IQ, you haven't yet learned that ad hominems are the appropriate attack when dealing with pompous pricks. I deemed it the correct response in your case, it seems I'm not alone in this opinion.

I'm getting old and my last measured IQ was only 138, so I guess in your eyes that makes me a dumb-ass. But let me tell you something smarty; had my friends chosen such a crappy nickname for me I would have told them to choose another and certainly would not have retained it myself. How smart is that? The slightest slip-up and somebody will jump on you as indeed you think I did, but anyone following the comments will see I initially made no personal attack upon you, that was something you brought upon yourself. As for Mensa I wouldn't be so proud of that outfit, a friend of mine is an ex-member, he opines that "Densa" would be a more appropriate name, I think I may agree with him. If you wanted to impress me and possibly others, tell me what you've done, what have you invented that's been helpful to humankind? You show me yours and I'll show you mine!

Anyhow I'm bored with you now but be sure that my self-assuredness will remain undaunted no matter how much you attempt to bait me with puerile attempts, a man of my experience does not worry over such trivialities. That's what you lack incidentally -- experience of life. Go away now and waste no more of your high intelligence upon me, I consider this conversation at an end.

433. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59453 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 5:25 am

149. Comment #59444 by IQHQ

Is that a joke? This is the internet you plonker! An apology indeed, you'll wait a long time! You're simply upset that someone isn't impressed by your self-aggrandizing nickname, I've dealt with some very intelligent people, none would behave like you. You couldn't resist trying to get back at me -- a mistake I feel.

434. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59450 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 4:58 am

110. Comment #59387 by Beth

Oh Beth! Nice one! I think I've fallen in love with you, or at least I'll have to be careful about upsetting you at any time. :)

435. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59446 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 4:48 am

132. Comment #59420 by keith

Nicely put Keith!

But at least Henri seems to have had the good sense to say nothing further.

436. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59443 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 4:41 am

143. Comment #59438 by IQHQ

"Oh no! Tak about cringeworthy! I wouldn't wear an Atheist t-shirt anymore than I would wear a t-shirt saying that I was a Social Democrat! For goodness sake...."

As you can see I've repeated your words from #72.

Yes, you're right, you did express your own opinion, in such a way that indicates at least to me, that your way is THE way. That's what prompted my comment to you that others might wear it. So don't WTF me, WTF you! You might make me say your nickname gives a good insight into how you seem to feel about yourself! I think you slipped up here, don't dig a deeper hole.

437. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59442 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 4:21 am

127. Comment #59411 by Veronique

"Hi Yorker I have been having a bit of a holiday. But you haven't posted much for a while either:-)"

Hello Veronique, hope you enjoyed your holiday. It's true I haven't posted much lately, perhaps you can see why. Iv'e been trying to start some action and get support for our cause within my local community, happily with some success. Incidentally, I gave that little book you recommended to a couple of people who said they feel enlightened by it, I told them to get their own copy of TGD, I'm a Scotsman, TGD is too expensive to give away! :)

438. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59440 by Yorker on July 29, 2007 at 4:08 am

114. Comment #59391 by Dr Benway

"Why wouldn't you wear it, Yorker?"

I don't think I've addressed you directly before, so hello.

I have a few reasons.

1. Impractical. I live in Scotland; there are not many days where the weather would allow me to go around with nothing warmer than a T-shirt. When I lived in Florida I often wore anti-religious garments.
2. The shirt is neither informative nor provocative enough; a big red "A" would not invoke the word "atheist" in the mind of the average person in the street, even the web address would mean nothing to many. I'd bet that at least 60% of British people wouldn't know of Dawkins.
3. My experience is that strangers are unlikely to start a conversation with a person wearing a provocative shirt, even if worn with a kilt as I sometimes did.
4. People who already know me are fully aware of my stance on religion; I have no need to ram it down their throat.
5. Tomorrow I shall be 64; I feel my clothing tastes have changed a little.

However, as I said, I see nothing wrong whatever with anyone else wanting to wear the shirt and if at some future point, the members of the political army of atheism chose the garment as a uniform, I would bow to majority rule and wear it too. As I also said earlier, we must be prepared to dump minor unimportant personal dislikes for the common good.

Atheism must unite or be ignored as it has for ages, the time HAS COME, "thinkers" unable to join the herd and obtain political power must stand aside and allow the "doers" to get things done. It is they who will change the world for the betterment of humanity, it's always been that way and always will.

439. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59356 by Yorker on July 28, 2007 at 9:19 pm

I've never heard of Zapfino font before, or even Zapfino typeface, which is what it really is. A font is something used to create a typeface.

Pedantry sometimes sucks!

440. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59343 by Yorker on July 28, 2007 at 8:44 pm

72. Comment #59334 by IQHQ

"Oh no! Tak about cringeworthy! I wouldn't wear an Atheist t-shirt anymore than I would wear a t-shirt saying that I was a Social Democrat! For goodness sake...."

I wouldn't wear one either but I recognise that some people would, that's why I wouldn't make a comment like yours! It's this kind of petty stuff that must be discouraged if atheism is not to be the laughing stock it's becoming.

441. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59331 by Yorker on July 28, 2007 at 8:07 pm

51. Comment #59308 by Henri Bergson

"Identifying with a group is a common human sign of weakness."

Only one word Henri: BOLLOCKS!

442. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59329 by Yorker on July 28, 2007 at 8:03 pm

Holy shit!

I said here before that atheists have a hard time uniting but I didn't realise how pathetically picky some of you wankers are! How are we ever going to get anything done if we can't ditch this herding cats crap and allow ourselves to present a united front as human beings of like mind? Some of you would clearly be unable to agree upon the colour of shit! Can't you see that in the interest of the common good it's going to be necessary to set aside some of your personal little dislikes? Furthermore, what's all this crap about the Union Jack and the English language, English is the language of Britain and the flag is an amalgam of the flags of British nations, the union of these countries is how it got its name, if you can't deal with that, tough; I'm Scots, I have no problem with it.

If I were a religite I'd be laughing my arse off right now and tearing you to shreds over this nonsensical divisive bickering, how many times does it need to be said that we must become political and wield power that gets something done? It is whining and bleating individuals no matter how good or righteous their cause, who are weak, group membership brings strength; anyone who can't see that is living in a daze! Richard Dawkins has said in a TED talk that funding should be raised to politicise the atheistic movement; I tried to get some political action going here some months ago and only a few brave persons gave me support. I'm happy to report that efforts in my local community have been much more successful, perhaps it's to do with force of personality that can't be wielded on the Net.

If some take some offence at the wording of my first paragraph, then good; that was my intent! If you want an argument, fine; "bring it on", as Hitchens would say, otherwise, let's try to agree upon the important things and forget the petty bullshit!

443. Don't eat at the Outback Steakhouse on Route 3...

Comment #59058 by Yorker on July 27, 2007 at 5:36 am

18. Comment #58964 by Bonzai

"Where is Mind_Rebel?"

Funny, I was wondering that myself, perhaps he got fed up of being attacked by assholes and undeservedly labelled a troll, I'm not surprised if he decided to leave us.

Shame.

444. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Edd Doerr

Comment #58797 by Yorker on July 26, 2007 at 7:14 am

44. Comment #58781 by the_assayer

I'm not worked up about it and science is a body of knowledge not belief, it is the method of obtaining that knowledge that I accept. I feel the word "belief", because of it's hijacking by religion, has connotations of unreasoned acceptance.

445. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Edd Doerr

Comment #58780 by Yorker on July 26, 2007 at 5:37 am

12. Comment #58451 by 82abhilash

"So please don't say 'faith in science'. At best say, ' I believe in the potential of the scientific method to help me gain a better understanding of the world."

Not bad, but I wouldn't use the word "belief" at all; I feel as Sagan did, better to know (or not know) than believe. I'd say:

"I accept the power of the scientific method's ability to help me gain a better understanding of the world."

446. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Edd Doerr

Comment #58778 by Yorker on July 26, 2007 at 5:24 am

A better than average performance by Hitchens I thought, he seemed more calm and powerfully logical and certainly pinned Doerr down on the fundie vs moderate issue.

I agree with Prof. Dawkins comment re the moderator but broadcasters will not change this format; I think they feel this role is needed for a few reasons.

1. To make certain that pre-defined topics get discussed.
2. To ensure that one speaker doesn't bully another into silence (I think Hitch would be capable of this).
3. To make sure that any one topic doesn't get disproportionate time.

Incidentally Richard, I see Oxford is flooded, I hope you're not wading around in your house.

447. Town Hall Seattle: God Is Not Great

Comment #57894 by Yorker on July 22, 2007 at 3:39 am

What's all this stuff about Jefferson being a rapist? If he had sex with one of the slaves he owned, what's wrong with that? I'd bet most slave owners took advantage of slaves and would have laughed at those who called it rape. In Jefferson's time slave ownership was considered right and proper and so owners felt able to do as they pleased with property. Obviously, I'm not saying it's right but in his era they thought it was and that's all that mattered!

Rape is only rape because we name it so, it is a crime by the societal rules we -- rightly -- apply today; nature does not punish rapists because it has no concept of crime.

It's a mistake to judge historic people by the rules we apply today.

448. Town Hall Seattle: God Is Not Great

Comment #57804 by Yorker on July 21, 2007 at 6:42 am

99. Comment #57725 by dgr8test97

"People have trashed me for showing that Buddhist mediation can lead to really amazing mental and physical acts."

I think you're over reacting, most have said that similar things can be achieved without Buddhism.

"However, Hitchens has flat out lied about Buddhism's role in Japanese aggression in WWII and no one is calling him on this."

What do you want? I and others have said Hitch does say things that are wrong sometimes, do we need to mention every error specifically? You seem to be too caught up in Buddhism, relax, there's nothing magical or mystical about it.

There's no doubt in my mind that many newcomers here are young people; such persons have a tendency towards hero-worship, that's why I mentioned the pop-star like image Hitch has engendered amongst them in comment #22. Once they gain age and experience this youthful characteristic will decline and be replaced by a more balanced view. Some even display the same behaviour towards Dawkins, it makes me cringe but I don't complain because it's natural amongst the young.

Many don't realise that skills that amaze others are simply the result of years of practice, there's no need for mystical explanations. Without being immodest, I have skills myself that would impress and perhaps even amaze you, but I'm just an ordinary guy whose spent more than 50 years attaining high performance levels. So, although I admire the skills of others -- because I know the work it takes -- I don't hero worship anyone; they are just like me.

449. Town Hall Seattle: God Is Not Great

Comment #57702 by Yorker on July 20, 2007 at 4:12 pm

85. Comment #57664 by dgr8test97

Thank's for the needle/glass link.

Well now, that was entertaining but that's all. I watched quite carefully and noted the following.

1. The "needle" was in fact more like a steel pin weighing perhaps 15gr. and significantly, we did not get a profile view of the pin passing through the glass, it might only have been a millimetre thick – very unconvincing.
2. When attacked by a spear to the throat, I don't think the victim is given the chance to carefully place the point of the weapon at a mechanically advantageous spot, in addition, spears are not designed to bend to the ridiculous degree these ones did.
3. Stick breaking – I noticed the sticks were hollow and very dry, almost certainly bamboo, had it been hickory, the guy's arm would've been shattered.
4. Bricks, concrete etc. Any builder will tell you bricks are easily cut by scoring them before applying a sharp blow. We never get to examine the bricks or concrete closely before the trick is performed.
5. Chin hanging, the key thing here is the rope was under the chin not around the neck and I didn't see any fat guys do the stunt! A simple question of strength vs weight ratio of vertebrae to body. That's why hangmen have to calculate the drop distance to break the neck, usually 5 to 6 feet for a person of average weight, too short and they strangle, too long and decapitation results.

In short, I saw nothing here that convinced me that "qi energy" is anything other than trickery applied by people with a fair knowledge of mechanics. I'd bet none of these guys could do anything against a spear or edged weapon used the way it was meant to be. In any case, what's the point in this martial arts stuff? It may have some value in fitness training but nothing else; wars are fought with bullets and bombs nowadays, I've never seen bullet or bomb resistance demonstrated (please, no Penn & Teller jokes).

Science has a very good handle on energy, we know a lot about it, that's why we can easily debunk "crystal healing" and alike nonsense. The same goes for "qi" I think, if it was real it would be scientifically detectable and demonstrable, so far, I haven't seen any evidence.

450. Town Hall Seattle: God Is Not Great

Comment #57616 by Yorker on July 20, 2007 at 8:38 am

57. Comment #57484 by dgr8test97

"shaolin monks throwing needles that can shatter glass"

Sounds like bullshit or a violation of physical law to me. Without knowing the needle mass, type of glass, environmental conditions etc. I can't be certain but I'd say it would not be humanly possible to throw a normal household needle with sufficient velocity to shatter a pane of normal window glass. Perhaps you misinterpreted the story, your English is by your own admission, pretty sloppy.

I have a small measure of agreement with you on Hitchens; he can sometimes appear arrogant and he does also make statements that are factually incorrect. This is a more serious flaw that he should correct if he wishes to avoid a loss of credibility. I'm certain Oxford University does not give degrees to idiots -- as you labelled Hitchens -- though, so on that point you are evidently wrong; I think you're allowing your personal dislike of the man to cloud your judgement.