401. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113327 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 9:43 am

It's batboy actually...but you're not answering my question. Of course reason is better than belief in determining questions worth pondering and where one has time to do so. It just may not represent the best way to make the many decisions we have to make on any given day. Using 20/20 hindsight to justify your decisions as logical is easy - it's what we do every day so there is no need to go through that exercise with you. However, you can make reasoned decisions based on incorrect information and they will still be bad decisions. But we (and I'm including you)don't make most of our decisions more than half well thought out or we'd still be deciding what to have for breakfast. I'll ask again though is success in life merely a product of one's good or poor decisions?

edit -- Scooter I think you confused me with PBUM above.

402. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113314 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 9:22 am

Scooter another thing that bothers me is that you seem to think that you know the right answer to every scenario that presents you with an opportunity to make a decision. Perhaps feelings present an evolutionary advantage in decision making where speed is required over consideration or in situations where "going with your gut" might lead to a better outcome because others around you are presenting false choices in order to trick you. How about it?

403. The New Theology

Comment #113307 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 8:57 am

Actually epeeist, God has written volumes through such vessels as Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard amongst others. The problem is that their writings are not sufficiently remote enough in time and have not been ingrained long enough for most people to swallow them as legitimate. If the writings survive longer than the writings of those who knew they were crackpots, even they could become widely accepted.

404. The New Theology

Comment #113296 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 8:30 am

Epeeist I sensed something of a double entendre in your last post to ADH...was I misreading?

405. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113289 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 8:19 am

Dr. Steve -- I think the vast majority of decisions we make everyday are made without much considered thought beforehand and based on "feelings" of one type or another. Do I feel like having pizza for lunch or soup? But this is not what you are driving at is it?

406. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113287 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 8:04 am

It also occurs to me Scooter that no one is perfect so isn't there some "reason" to take one for the team once in a while and help somebody get over a mistake even if it does absolve them of some of their accountability -- to lessen the harm to others around that unfortunate decision?

edit - Scooter they could simply start with different premises than you? Maybe even faulty premises but it would still be a logical/illogical decision but not based on emotion. (Perhaps if he gets enough money to buy whatever it is he wants he will get the hell off my street before my company comes over for dinner.) What about the second part of my question above -- is one's "success" in life a product of their good or poor decision making?

407. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113284 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 7:54 am

I see Dr. Steve, but I'm not sure there's much difference between an automated response and being wired such that we generate feelings that cause us to act pretty much without thinking. Could you elaborate on that difference a little.
edit
wow you guys type fast...and Dr. Steve isn't that arguing to authority or at least arguing to T-shirts;)?

408. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113281 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 7:48 am

OK Scooter...but someone could give a beggar a dollar by making a logical decision right rather than an emotional one? You're not saying that someone's station in life is merely the result of the cause and effect of their good or poor decision making right?

409. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113276 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 7:40 am

Dr. Steve -- that is certainly expanding on my understanding of the meaning of empathy and sympathy. I just consider those conscious states of mind or feelings. If you are talking about the urge to want to save a drowning child even if don't know how to swim -- or something like that I would want to call that something else. Rescue/assist instinct maybe? What do you think?

410. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113272 by Radesq on January 19, 2008 at 7:22 am

I think a good deal of this discussion has been talking past one another. Whether someone gives another a hand or a handout has little to do with empathy. The same can be said for whether or not you decide to assign other people blame for their bad decisions (which we all do at least negatively in justifying our own decisions). Empathy and sympathy are just feelings -- they may provide motivation for actions but they are not actions themselves. Scooternyc if you condemn using emotion decision making -- that is different than condemning actions such as giving money to a beggar versus telling him to giving him a broom and paying him to sweep.

411. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113185 by Radesq on January 18, 2008 at 8:11 pm

Perhaps I am misusing the word empathy. When I say I empathize with someone, I simply mean I think I have some experience with what they are going through. If it is a bad time for them (whether brought about by bad choices or through no fault of their own)I might feel bad for them because I remember what it was like to go through a similarly trying time. I was looking to see if Scooter might have had the experience of working toward self reliance, responsibility, and accountability and so might identify with and be willing to help someone else do the same by empathizing with them.

I think what Croatcat is describing is sympathy or a lack thereof which (unless he/she has had the experience of having a father die from a drug overdose induced heart attack in the street) would be different from empathizing. If my definition is off the mark then I will call that feeling something else.

412. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113147 by Radesq on January 18, 2008 at 5:01 pm

Have you Scooted Scooternyc?

Fascinating...

413. The New Theology

Comment #113139 by Radesq on January 18, 2008 at 4:28 pm

This is New?

This view of a modest God may seem unfamiliar, but it's not new. It's the God that the British poet and artist William Blake had in mind with his 1789 poem, "The Lamb"--"He is meek and he is mild; He became a little child."

414. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #113136 by Radesq on January 18, 2008 at 4:26 pm

by Scooter

There's an enormous difference in people supporting an individual in working toward self-reliance, responsibility and accountability And just giving them a f*cking dollar to ease your conscience

415. Questions Delay Creationist Master's Degrees

Comment #112671 by Radesq on January 17, 2008 at 6:02 pm

I think you are all getting carried away a little bit here. I have heard you have to have an undergraduate degree in Makebeleivology from an accredited University (i.e Regent or Bob Jones) to get accepted to the program -- so this will have a rather limited scope.

416. Dinesh D'Souza: Winner of the 2007 Bad Faith Award

Comment #112317 by Radesq on January 16, 2008 at 8:16 pm

You know, I bet there were people who had nearly the same reaction to the Old Testament back when it was just the Testament. Please don't take that as an endorsement of Scientology -- that would be missing my point entirely.

417. The Group Delusion

Comment #112316 by Radesq on January 16, 2008 at 8:10 pm

Tol Diacanu? Oh yes I remember now that was in The Lord of the Rings - it was an island off the coast of Umbar I think.

418. Mother Nature is Not Our Friend

Comment #112295 by Radesq on January 16, 2008 at 7:25 pm

Given the title of this article - I don't think Sam has seen that ad. What were we talking about again?

419. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #112287 by Radesq on January 16, 2008 at 6:32 pm

mesomodel - They say it is always darkest just before dawn (probably not factually correct) hang in there I think things will get better.

420. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111864 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 10:34 pm

How much money should people in the West be allowed to accumulate while children are dieing of preventable diseases in Africa? Give me a number Rtambree.

In fact should governments in the West be spending money on roads and government buildings when other people are starving? Don't we have enough of them already?

421. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111855 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 9:51 pm

Earned is also a subjective term Don Quix. The CEO of Countrywide Home Loans just received a $110 million golden parachute as part of the buyout from Bank of America what did he do to earn that aside from nearly bankrupting the company? All of us non-richies whomever that might describe here can be jealous of those who have acquired great wealth or be convinced that we merit it no less than they. After all we work hard too right? But not all of us are going to be rich -- so I would hope that we might find some other ways of finding our worth -- or many of us are going to be very dissatisfied. This is a very circuitous route back to my original point that wealth is relative and that partially explains why someone might choose the 50K if his neighbors and coworkers are only making 25K even if that doesn't make perfect sense.

422. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111849 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 9:32 pm

Rtambree @ 177

...most high income earners believe they got to that station by effort (discounting any privileged upbringing or favourable genes bequeathed them).Conversely, the poor may over-attribute the environment or bad luck to account for their circumstances, so I guess it works both ways.

423. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111835 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 9:06 pm

Don Quix -- One caveat, I'd be willing to bet the people you describe (in the abstract) didn't achieve their wealth and status through their efforts alone (nobody does in my estimation). That doesn't make it wrong..I'm just saying.... One other thing -- I don't claim to know the financial situation of the posters here but would you sing the same tune with a seven figure income? Or as Stephen Colbert just finished saying: "I used to hate guys like me but now that I'm like me I kinda like guys like me" If so -- good for you -- but are you sure?

424. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111817 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 8:29 pm

Diacanu -- Don't draw the batboy into this fight he is no disciple of Ayn Rand. Besides, he doesn't even get an allowance yet.

425. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111813 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 8:14 pm

Don_Quix There you go again...why don't you give half of that to the poor.

But on a serious note DasSquid I think we understand hypothetical situations...it just shows that happiness in terms of financial security is relative. These "insights" are not new, I'm not trying to tear down Shermer...he seems like a nice enough guy I suppose. However, this is the third or forth thread about his homo economicus theories.

426. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111793 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 7:20 pm

I'm not as worried about Huckleberry because I don't think he can garner enough votes outside the Bible Belt. It's Mitt Romney "the Stormin' Mormon" that I worry stands a chance of getting elected. He just won the Michigan primary.

427. The Moral Instinct

Comment #111787 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 6:36 pm

What justice are we talking about? Vengeful justice as in eye for an eye? Fairness? One man one vote? Univerals (not the work out machines) appear to me to be man made truisms that only apply to the affairs of sentient beings. Or basically what Don Quix said...

428. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111786 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 6:27 pm

I'm not sure what you mean. Well, I think people empathize/sympathize with those who are suffering because most of us have suffered at one time or another and it was not a pleasant experience. Nobody becomes a success on their own - we all have help. There are no true by my own bootstraps alone stories. People will be accountable for their poor decisions (even if they are not entirely responsible for their failings) There are those who even when you try to help them (either by hand up or hand out) will fail and that is accountability itself.

429. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111775 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 6:01 pm

I suppose that's not the only thing we differ on Dr. Steve. I cannot say I am happy to pay taxes -- more like resigned that it is necessary to the betterment of all in my society and worth doing (if the rates of taxation are in line with the benefits gained and if the benefits are widely enough distributed). However, perhaps you would agree that an unemotional life (like an unexamined one) is not worth living.

430. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111772 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 5:54 pm

Scooter on another thread didn't you say something to the effect of most people make most of their decisions based on emotion or "gut feeling" and then just rationalize them afterwards? I think that is likely pretty close to the truth. In as much as I don't think we have time to think through completely most of the decisions we make. Don't we usually make a thumbnail sketch of a logical decision and then fill in the blanks later?

431. Why (Almost All) Cosmologists are Atheists

Comment #111768 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 5:46 pm

On the other hand if your hypothesis is wrong God is probably a huge fan of reality TV shows.

432. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111763 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 5:40 pm

Scooter & Steve: I think I come down on this somewhere between the two of you on the emotional decision making spectrum. Steve are you really "happy" to pay taxes or content to do so? I suspect that your finding emotions useful in making decisions is really your reason looking back on what you think are good decisions with an emotional element to them. You've made poor decisions based on other emotions right (jealousy, anger) were those useful? As for you Scooter I keep expecting one of your posts to consist of nothing more than a Spockian "Fascinating". There must be something that can get you fired up enough to let go of your cold logic a little bit right?

433. The Mind of the Market

Comment #111755 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 5:18 pm

al rawandi I take back the w00ter thing, you don't deserve that - sorry. I stand by the rest of it though and would like to hear your response.

434. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111750 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Emotions are like Alcoholism - I'll drink to that Scooter!

435. The Mind of the Market

Comment #111747 by Radesq on January 15, 2008 at 4:57 pm

WOW al rawandi I can't think of anything I have disagreed with more that hasn't been posted by w00ter. And I don't insult you lightly because I have read many of your posts and can appreciate your point of view; but I find this one too much. Are you saying that a majority of the violence perpetrated by Muslims is a product of poverty and lack of self-determination and freedom of opportunity? Well of course it is, at least in some part! But it is the religious fundamentalism that allows this to jump off the rationality track and become a crusade or jihad if you will (this level of insanity can be achieved by means other than religion -- see Fascism -- but religion with its already tenuous grip on reality just does it so much more easily). I emphatically do not find indifference to the suffering of others worse or even equal to the deliberate targeting of civilians for violence. I understand your arguments about guerrilla warfare and using the tactics that are available to you. I think there is a qualitative difference however between al queda and the fight against an occupying power such as the USA in Iraq or Israel. Give al queda what they want(which seems somewhat amorphous to me to begin with)and they will just find something else to feel wronged about. F them. Breaking down the religious divisiveness will be a necessary step to reaching any rational diplomatic solution in the middle east (and that will mean breaking the power of Islam itself -- no small feat). As long as the goal to have a growing Islamic empire (is caliphate the right term?)governed by sharia persists there will be next to no chance of reaching a peaceful equilibrium. Islam is as much to blame for the problems of Muslims than the West is (what good is a revolution against an unjust dictator or an election for that matter if you end up "choosing" to be governed by religious doctrine enforced by new dictators?) Meet the new boss...same as the old boss. As to Africa no one is blameless there, least of all Africans. The Gulf States have plenty of money -- what have they ever done for anybody - apparently brown people are indifferent to the suffering of black Africans too. Worse than that really -- look at Sudan over the last half century. Finally it is not white lives that I consider most valuable it is American lives and more specifically my life. Must be my selfish genes.

436. The Mind of the Market

Comment #111439 by Radesq on January 14, 2008 at 3:29 pm

al rawandi: Is your point that we aren't afraid that Hutu's or Tutsi's are going to try to cut down the Empire State Building or the Sears Tower with machetes? I think that might be why we pay more attention to the violence committed in connection with Islam and why it is more dangerous to the West.

437. George Scales, War Hero and Generous Friend of RDFRS

Comment #111386 by Radesq on January 14, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Best wishes to you Mr. Scales for all you have done and all that you may yet do for freedom and reason! Please get well soon!

438. The Moral Instinct

Comment #111377 by Radesq on January 14, 2008 at 1:07 pm

All this stuff about words and concepts is taking my mind back to Plato/Socrates in college philosophy class and "forms" and the shadows on the cave wall...is this where we're heading with this?

439. The Mind of the Market

Comment #111312 by Radesq on January 14, 2008 at 9:33 am

JDAM - Thank goodness when Mormon Mitt gets elected we're going to close the border so we won't have anymore of those multi-multi millionaires coming into the USA anymore stealing my million dollar job.

440. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111154 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 6:51 pm

Damien -- the Batboy appreciates utility as he has a whole belt dedicated to it. But what difference does it make to Shermer's points whether you are using utility units or monetary units?

441. Fish out of water: Your Inner Fish

Comment #111134 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 5:17 pm

Yeah, that's why Methuselah and Noah and all those guys lived for hundreds of years -- good clean livin' off the land.

442. Why people believe weird things about money

Comment #111130 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 4:58 pm

I don't think the instinctual part of the brain understands money as anything but a zero sum arrangement. If you have more I have less. That might in part explain the 50K versus 100K test. So perhaps people who answer the question just don't think it through (is that really that hard to believe?)or maybe they over thought it (if I'm getting paid twice as much as the others in this scenario maybe I'm really good at my job and vice versa, etc.) As far as the monkeys being risk averse to 50/50 bets even a monkey knows that a coin flip can come up heads 12 times in a row then you would have no food and no tokens -- hell hath no fury like a hungry monkey. Finally on the 90/10 split...if you didn't have the decency to offer me half then I'll be happy to fore go my ten to deny you any of it (if that's not logical enough I could just hit you over the head and take your 90% when your not looking). When I say you I don't mean you of course -- I'd never do that to you because you would share.

443. The Moral Instinct

Comment #111046 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 11:54 am

Artful Dodger

Looking on the West, and many other Africans, were horrified. Why should we have been?

444. The Moral Instinct

Comment #111020 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 10:51 am

Would that be Eric Burdon Diacanu? At any rate even if morality is relative and merely a construct it is useful and therefore there could be a benefit for it being a genetically reproducible phenomenon at least in part.

445. The Moral Instinct

Comment #110982 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 10:14 am

Ack! Don't count me a troll also but you can't use unnecessary harm as a modifier in your explanation as we can all differ on what is or is not necessary harm.

446. The Moral Instinct

Comment #110962 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 9:43 am

Not illusions Henri. Agreed upon frameworks, even if some of the agreement is garnered at the point of a bayonet. The power relationships you argue for are real but people can endlessly fight against the establishment of civilization and its morality if they choose to -- if they don't succeed it may be because evolution has already selected behaviors that are the most successful. Time will tell.

447. The Moral Instinct

Comment #110950 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 9:20 am

>If God is dead, everything is permissable [sic].
Henri: You have just provided perhaps the best justification of the rule of law and the organization of the nation state (such as they are).

448. The Moral Instinct

Comment #110944 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 9:08 am

Oh come on Dr. Steve, nobody is very gay or very straight or very bisexual unless you include sexual appetite in the equation (in which case how very immodest of you). Otherwise you must be including some other traits which are far more likely to be culturally learned ("chosen")behaviors as part of the definition of being gay. Unless there is a gene for gay and another one for very gay. Jeesh, I hate going down this road...in fact the floor is yours contradict me if you will.

449. The Moral Instinct

Comment #110934 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 8:50 am

Phew! That's a relief. I thought I might have to take issue with you about homosexuality; something with which you are "intimately" more familiar than I. ;)

450. The Moral Instinct

Comment #110929 by Radesq on January 13, 2008 at 8:43 am

HB Are you homosexual?
SZ Very.

Not on topic but what do you mean very? That does not seem like something I would expect you too say, Dr. Steve.