401. 1996 Richard Dimbleby Lecture

Comment #73067 by scottishgeologist on September 24, 2007 at 3:19 am

Regarding TV programs, I am not sure that "shows for atheists" per se is necessarily a good thing. What is needed, IMO, are the sort of shows that show exactly what the wonders of nature are, shows to realy popularise science (WITHOUT DUMBING IT DOWN) Preferably with presenters who are articulate and smart, not looking like mad scientist charicatures, or going the other way, avoiding the desire to have your presenters all "k3wl and hip".

Present hard, good, honest science - make it interesting ( becasue as we know: "science is interesting, and if you dont agree you can......off! LOL) and above all EDUCATE

Programs that shed light and dispel the darkness of superstition and woo woo.

By the way I detest Sunday morning programs. The Heaven and Earth show was just vile. On Radio Scotland on a Sunday morning we get all sorts of religious "keich" (to use a fine old Scots word)

I normally like to have the radio on, but on Sunday it remains off. If I want the news, I'll got to google or bbc.co.uk

SG

402. Row Brews Over DUP Call for Schools to Teach Creationism

Comment #73065 by scottishgeologist on September 24, 2007 at 3:08 am

The YEC / ID proponents make an assumption. That their "intelligent design" comes from the god of the bible.

Underpinning everythin is this tacit assumption. It is axiomatic to them

If they were truly honest about looking at alternatives to evolution etc, then they would also have ot look at the possibilty of bug eyed aliens from Zeta Reticulli using Earth as a cosmic test tube.

Or Pleiadeians.

Why not? There are some who would argue that there is actually "evidence" for such creatures.

And its no more ridiculous than what is written in the bible anyway

SG

403. The Dawkins Prize for Animal Conservation and Welfare

Comment #72433 by scottishgeologist on September 21, 2007 at 4:19 am

Cartomancer, LOL!

I suppose that all the universities, certainly the ancient ones were theological schools at one time

St Andrews, Scotlands oldest university, was very much in this tradition. In fact St A was the ecclesiastical capital of Scotland at one time.

There was no shortage of religiously inspired killing in those days. Outside the college chapel, there is a set of initials in the pavement - PH, for Patrick Hamilton who was burned at the stake for his beliefs.

(I know this is completely off topic, but it all fits into the overal religion and universities thing)

In the wall of the chapel tower there is a stone that looks like a human face - this is supposedly an angel who appeared to Hamilton as he was being cooked.

And finally, there is a superstition that if an undergraduate should stand on the cobbles forming PH's initials, then exam failure will follow....

The place is absolutely full of ghost stories and stuff like that.

I am sure Oxford and Cambridge must have some good tales as well - lets hear them! :-)

SG

404. Why Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously

Comment #72397 by scottishgeologist on September 21, 2007 at 1:28 am

What we are seeing in this article is interesting - for centuries, the religites have pushed an image of god that is the bearded, nightgown-clad death-and-destruction "believe in me or I'll burn you in hell for ever, you c*nt" sort of deity.

Hwever, education, science and research over the past 200 years have revealed a rather different explanation for things.

So the "angry god" of a literal bible has been on the retreat. Until recently.

We've now got a scenario where there is a fundie-ism / liberalism split in the churches. The fundies still believe in the evil sky-fairy up there, whereas the liberals have tried to re-invent their "god" to fit in with what science is telling us in a clear loud voice.

The two notions of "god" are completely incompatible.

So, a couple of questions for the theists.

1) Which is right?
2) Why is the other wrong?
3) Which do Alister McGrath, Wea Flea and other evangie apologists beleive in?

SG

BTW, PeterK, your comment about Gods dinky made me laugh out loud - funniest posting this week, by far... :-))))))

405. The Dawkins Prize for Animal Conservation and Welfare

Comment #72176 by scottishgeologist on September 20, 2007 at 1:38 pm

What a breath of fresh air that article is (although the subject matter is a bit depressing) real science, real research the results of which have ramifications for everyone.

Is this the same Oxford which also produces that inane crap called theology, the like of which is taught at Wycliffe Hall (qv) ?

406. Why Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously

Comment #72132 by scottishgeologist on September 20, 2007 at 12:05 pm

The most telling part of this whole article is the bit at the end "Wild Goose Publishing, Iona" No more need be said.

This isnt rabid frothing mouthed right wing fundie-ism. This is the other side of the god coin - the wishy washy, fluffy, new age woo-woo that is ultra liberal "spirituality" which Iona is awash with.

This is real "be your own god" "god within us all" sort of stuff.

Actually, in some respects this stuff is reasonably harmless. And organisations like the Iona Community are strident in their social justice, peace, and CND initiatives.

But the article is still heavy going drivvle.

407. Radical Christians in Iraq

Comment #71904 by scottishgeologist on September 19, 2007 at 11:42 pm

82abhilash What a question!

I think , I would become a breatharian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breatharian


Mind you, a charismatic nutjob (sorry for the tautology there) I once knew maintained that "fasting puts an edge on prayer", so maybe some caution is needed.

In fact I heard from a very very liberal (ie crypto-agnostic) preacher a few months ago who pointed out that all these people who claim "divine revelations" when fasting are actualy hallucinating for want of food.

Sounds about right to me...

408. Oxford's Christian colleges 'are not suitable for school-leavers'

Comment #71902 by scottishgeologist on September 19, 2007 at 11:33 pm

Janus, your posting reminds me of that Ingersoll quote:

"It is a thousand times better to know how to cook than it is to understand any theology in the world."

:-)

SG

409. Oxford's Christian colleges 'are not suitable for school-leavers'

Comment #71663 by scottishgeologist on September 19, 2007 at 12:33 pm

Steven, "school leaver" means someone , ususally aged 17 - 18 who is finished at secondary school level and is about to either go into work, or else head on to Tertiary education (university or college)

Probably a British expression What was that old expression about the UK and the USA as 2 countries separated by a common language? :-))

410. Oxford's Christian colleges 'are not suitable for school-leavers'

Comment #71647 by scottishgeologist on September 19, 2007 at 11:59 am

Interesting stuff. I was reading about Wycliffe Hall recently (Alister McGrath used to be Principal) there. Apparently the current incumbent Richard Turnbull is a right nutter, and there has been a huge exodus of staff. Guardian story here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2080581,00.html


Apparently the college is accused of becoming "…more hostile to women's ordination and more homophobic since the appointment of its principal."

More homophobic? WTF? So they REALLY HATE GAYS now do they, rather than just , well, like hating them a teensy weenzy bit? Thats all we need, Phelps style homophobia in the UK.


Actually, I read an article which reckoned that Turnbull was actually an atheist planted there to destroy the place by his extremism. For some of this guys stuff:

the Guardian article:

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,2086770,00.html

"Theologian damns most Britons to hell"

But then , it could be argued that his postion is actually the coreect one, if he insists on an "inerrant, infallible, inspired Word of God"

He's still an arse though....

411. The Fleas Are Multiplying!

Comment #69509 by scottishgeologist on September 11, 2007 at 2:16 pm

David, Interesting that you responded to _J_ s comment but not mine:

I hate to say this but I agree with you. I only heard Ken Ham once and it terrified me. He is actually one of your best allies - he will split churches and make fools of many of us. Let me put it this way - this is one Free Church he will never be allowed to speak in (at least not without someone sensible to give a rebuttal). I actually think that the majority of Free Churches would not allow him

The problem for you guys is that he IS being endorsed by mainstream evangelical churches. And Dowanvale in Glasgow, well, the pastor there is Kenny Stewart, on of the most respected preachers in the Free Church. And I am sure a very nice, pleasant fellow.

But surely this whole sorry episode (Ken Ham on a Scottish tour) proves exactly what Prof Dawkins was saying. The moderates, the "easy going churchy folks" if you like are ENABLERS for the fundie nutjobs.

Unless of course they stridently speak out against it. Is this happening? Will there be a rebuttal of YEC and Ken Ham at the next FC General Assembly? I see little evidence for it.

After all, surely if the issue is very damaging to your church, you would want to make a public policy statement about it? Wouldnt you?

SG

412. The Fleas Are Multiplying!

Comment #69479 by scottishgeologist on September 11, 2007 at 12:16 pm

Billy, yes the lovely Ken Ham and hios choice of Scottish venues. Venues like: Culduthel Christian Centre, Inverness. Gilcomston South Church, Aberdeen. Carrubbers Church Centre, Edinburgh. Dowanvale Free Church, Glasgow

In other words, trendy, middle class, "fish on the SUV" evangie churches.

Going back a year or two, you will find Ken Ham speaking at Charlotte Baptist church in Edinburgh, the ultimate middle class, wealthy social club style church.

All of these churches are the respectable face of evangelicalism. These arent the rabid, Phelps-esque extremists. This is absoulte mainstream evangelicalism.

And they endorse Ken "6000 year old Earth" Ham.

Says it all.

Bye the way, any of the Scottish readers of this site seen the Alister McGrath article in the latest issue of the Church of Scotland's "life and work" magazine? No? By someone called Thomas Baldwin, heres a taster:

"A Champion of Christianity" One of the stronger irritants involved in being a Christian over the last couple of years has been putting up with Richard "how can God exist when the world revolves around me" Dawkins (if you think that sounds harsh, read the God Delusion and count the "I's") and his disciples telling us not only that our beliefs are wrong, but that in holding these beliefs we are providing succour to the sort of extremist to who we wouldnt give the time of day.

Thats just for starters. It goes on to state:

"Alister was also interviewed for Dawkins much maligned TV series, "The Root of all Evil (sic, no ?)" but presumably ddint fit the ravening extremist profile of religion Dawkins was trying to present, so his contribution ended up on the cutting room floor (it has since been retrieved and posted on the internet - both men obviously thought they got the better of the exchange because they both post links from their websites)"

And on it goes and goes.

Now I'd just like to adda point here. Alister McGrath comes over as a basically decent sort of fellow, in that "pipe and slippers" sort of way. His exchanges with Dawkins are quite friendly. I amsure these guys get on just fine. But the writer of this article is just a twat. I am sure this must be a bit of an embarassment for Alister McGrath

See if you can get a hold of the article - it isnt available online unfortunately.

Just one final point, near the end of the article, McGrath is quoted as saying "I have written 2 books on Dawkins and I wont be writing any more - I have made my contribution and its time to move on"

SG

413. The Fleas Are Multiplying!

Comment #68900 by scottishgeologist on September 9, 2007 at 3:36 am

The thing about these books that is so glaringly obvious is the degree to which they are derivative. They dont even attempt to be even slightly original in their titles, for the most part.

To me the response says it all - they are running round headless in a damage limitation exercise, they have had it their way for a long time, they've been challenged, and they dont like it!

Their behaviour is like Canute trying to get the tide to go out.

You know if one of these people were to write a book with a title like "21st Century Faith" or "Religion's Relevance Today" and made a positive case for it, then well, fair enough. At least show a bit of originality

Instead of looking like a bunch of parasites.

But since the churches have been parasitic on society for quite some time, thats hardly surprising.

414. The smallest signs of retreat

Comment #68542 by scottishgeologist on September 7, 2007 at 1:48 pm

you know, the more I read this sort of article, the more I am convinced, you know, we might just be winning.... coz we've certainly got them rattled, that's for sure.

SG

415. Cartoons from Evolution: a journal of nature 1927-1938

Comment #67709 by scottishgeologist on September 4, 2007 at 1:10 pm

Cartoons eh? Hah! THIS is a cartoon....

http://www.answersingenesis.org/aftereden/view.aspx?id=198

Check out the rest, they are equally embarrasing, irritating and make you want to punch someone...

416. Review of Darwin's Angel: An Angelic Response to the God Delusion

Comment #66932 by scottishgeologist on September 1, 2007 at 3:16 am

dvespertilio

Dont know about the BVM on a VW Beetle (BVM got a bit of a camel toe has she.... snigger....)

But check out this stuff here - this you have got to see:

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_1virgin.6024227sep01,0,4703625.story

Note the surname of the reporter "Christman" (!)

Just do a search on "minersville" and "virgin mary" through google or whatever and you'll get other reports. There is also a video of it on Liveleak (used to be known as Ogrish)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=450_1188520073

And for a real laugh, click on the comments link at the bottom of the Liveleak page....

That is unbelievable. Well no, it isnt, these people are nuts

Would be funny if it werent so stupid.

417. Review of Darwin's Angel: An Angelic Response to the God Delusion

Comment #66907 by scottishgeologist on September 1, 2007 at 1:20 am

The comment about "wispy, winged beings in ethereal nightgowns," raises an interesting question, and one that goes back to my faith-head days.

The popular image of "angels" is of androgynous creatures with wings and nightgowns who flit about and so on.

This image is common held by a lot of "bible believers" BUT,

At NO POINT WHATSOEVER in the Bible, where angels interact with humans are they ever described as having wings, or flying. Yes, there are "angelic order" creatures called cherubs and seraphs, but they are different. What I am talking about is where angels and men directly interact. These "messengers of god"

There are numerous references but the best one is in Hebrews, where there is "entertaining angels unawares" Ahem. If they had wings and nightgowns, I dont think they would be "unaware " of the fact.

OK, I hear y'all say this is BS anyway. True. But what it shows is that a lot of these so called bible believers dont actually understand or properly read their own BS. They are conditioned by popular mediaeval imagery in this particular example.

There are many other examples of this confused thinking - the entire popular nativity story is a mixture of unrelated events all strung together. There is no way that the events depictee in Luke and Matthew ever happened at the smae time.

(And of course there is the Quirinius problem, but lets not kick them when they're down...

Actually, what I reckon is that ideas about angels and fairies are getting mixed up. They have a lot in common in popular imagery. And what is the thing at the top of the Christmas Tree? Angel? Fairy? Can you tell the difference?

Of course not, they are both myths.

418. Orthodox Call on Sinners To Give Chickens a Fairer Shake

Comment #66733 by scottishgeologist on August 31, 2007 at 7:03 am

FFS! I've heard it all now. Jews arguing about "choking the chicken" I would have thought that that Onan business would have cleared that one up.

Never mind, whats next "bashing the bishop"?

Religion is a load of wank anyway.....

:-)))))

419. Richard Dawkins at the Edinburgh Book Festival

Comment #66093 by scottishgeologist on August 28, 2007 at 4:00 pm

A couple of points: Muriel Gray is unbelievably amusing - she has an ability to cut through BS like no-one else I can think of, and with bucket loads of humour. So when it comes to religion, she is going to be firing on all cylinders. However, she IS a full frontal atheist, so perhaps not the best choice to chair a debate / discussion.

Having said that, I think she's great - her book about hillwalking "The First Fifty" is an absolute classic of scottish mountaineering literature, and let me tell you, there are some seriously heavy hitters in that particular field.

So I am totally biased, stuff it, I'm happy!

Cheers!
SG

420. Fallen Pastor Seeks Aid to Pursue Studies

Comment #66030 by scottishgeologist on August 28, 2007 at 1:02 am

Something about that word "overseer" - I dont know, it sounds sort of sinister, like some anonymous black clad figure who controls things and who is all powerful within the organisation. Definitely Darth Vadar -ish.

Oh yes, continuing the limerick theme:

There once was a choir girl from Crewe
Who said as the Bishop withdrew
The Vicar is quicker and slicker and thicker
And 2 inches longer than you....

Sorry, wrists slapped....

421. Anger over 'blasphemous' balls

Comment #65921 by scottishgeologist on August 27, 2007 at 11:35 am

So , let me get this right, if you burned a Saudi flag, they might get a little bit upset.....

Imagine the reaction you'd get if you did that at the "stoning the devil" part of the Hajj!

Corylus, I agree, "blasphemous balls" sounds like a title to a highly fascinating story. The mind boggles at what this could entail.

Instead, its about religion and football. AAAAARGH!!! The Old Firm all over again. Except this time they wont kill each other with buckfast bottles and knives - it'll be AKs and RPGs...

Get out of Afghanistan now, its a lost cause without a shadow of a doubt if they go sdown that road....

422. Anger over 'blasphemous' balls

Comment #65920 by scottishgeologist on August 27, 2007 at 11:27 am

Afghan MP Mirwais Yasini said: "To have a verse of the Koran on something you kick with your foot would be an insult in any Muslim country around the world."

Its this foot thing that they have - apparently pointing the sole of your foot at a muzzie is extremely insulting . Must make karate contests interesting.

And then there was that business when Saddam's statue got pulled down, they beat it with their sandals in some sort of act of humiliation.

Not my idea of shoe and foot humiliation... :-)

423. Fallen Pastor Seeks Aid to Pursue Studies

Comment #65918 by scottishgeologist on August 27, 2007 at 11:20 am

Monoape asked:

Anyone have Ted's email address? ;)

Got it right here:

parasite@fuckinghypocrite.com

My favourite Haggard clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX79GiZPP1Q

WARNING: might make you ill.....

424. Only secular schools will overcome sectarianism

Comment #65820 by scottishgeologist on August 27, 2007 at 12:25 am

Sterreoroid, re comment 65789, did you ever see "Just another Saturday" - a play about sectarianism in west Scotland - Billy Connolly plays a big part in it - powerful, telling stuff.

http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/442522/index.html

I think a lot of the bigotry has subsided in Scotland now, prob a result of secularisation - the churches simply dont have the control they once had. I went to a tyical Scottish comprehensive school in the 70s - used to get the odd fight with "the papes" down the road but for the most part it was on the wane.

Mind you my mother still occasionally says thing like " my new neightbour, oh shes a catholic, but she's very nice!" Note the very telling use of the word "but"!

BTW, regarding faith schools, y'all might find this link interesting:

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/07/25/newsstory8579896t0.asp

425. Diamonds unlock secrets of early Earth

Comment #65381 by scottishgeologist on August 24, 2007 at 1:50 am

The thing is, with every day that passes, every year that goes by, there is simply more and more evidence that supports the "old earth" idea. The science just keeps confirming what we already know.

Yet, these YEC types keep wanting to fly in the face of it. The absolutely outstanding example is Kurt Wise (who gets a comment thread all to himself in an article by Dawkins - need to read it again)

Wise: "Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand."

You cant fight against this sort of thing. Its impossible. Their minds are made up, the Bible says it, therefore, no other explanation is possible.

Note: "if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism" With this diamonds research, we have simply yet another piece of evidence.

But of course, to the likes of Wise, despite an otherwise solid background in academia, this can be written off. Goddidit!

426. The Out Campaign: Interview with Josh Timonen

Comment #64016 by scottishgeologist on August 17, 2007 at 9:42 am

Yes, definitetly 3 chers for Josh. Running a web site like this must be quite a task. I have often wondered how many hits this site gets - I suspect it is rather a lot.

Got any figures? Or trends - would be fascinating to know!

Keep up the good work

SG

427. Saudis to build their own version of Eden Project

Comment #63577 by scottishgeologist on August 15, 2007 at 12:29 am

Phasmagigas:

will ken ham protest outside at its opening for promoting terrible lies?? besides, it has to be a good thing, anything learned from its development is a positive as is anything learned from being in there looking at the plants.

To my horror, I notice that the lovely Ken Ham is doing a "Scottish Tour". My first reaction wa, f*ck, not that jerk. (We had another Australian YEC jerk last year doing a tour - John Mackay)

http://www.answersingenesis.org/events/details.aspx?Event_ID=5640

What is interesting is the choice of venues - Note the Glasgow one: Dowanvale Free Church of Scotland. So does the Free Church of Scotland endorse YEC? If so, perhaps David Robertson could enlighten us.

After all, he wrote in one of his articles: "However I have to confess that I have really struggled with the likes of Morris and Whitcomb (The Genesis Flood) and am totally turned off by the abrasive, aggressive and self promoting Ken Ham."

And it would appear, that another of the churches in the Free Church also endorses AIG's position. I quote from the newsletter of Smithton Culloden free church in Inverness:

"In my view this is about the best "Creation" site on the web. Originating in Australia in the 1980s,largely as a result of the pioneering work of Ken Ham and Karl Wieland, it is now operating inmany countries across the world and exerting a powerful influence on the on-going debatebetween Creationists and Evolutionists.Their particular focus is on "providing answers to questions surrounding the Book of Genesis, asit is the most attacked book in the Bible." You will find here answers to the top 10 questions onthe creation issue as well as articles on such diverse topics as Genetics, Astronomy, Morality and Ethics, Noah's Ark, Death and Suffering and many others."

I wonder if the Pastor of Smithton agrees with this ringing endorsement? After all he is a bosom buddy of David Robertson...

I would have thought that YEC is like spiritual suicide for any church trying to engage with todays culture.

Or are the churches in this country really struggling with it? I suspect it doesnt get a lot of mention among the daffodil teas, coffee mornings and "church ceilidhs"...

428. Unreasonably superstitious

Comment #63422 by scottishgeologist on August 14, 2007 at 5:28 am

What is needed with all this woo woo stuff is for the gloves to come off and for it to be challenged, up front and publicly, and to be shown for the manifest bullshit it clearly is.

Like how Randi owned Uri Geller on Johnny Carson show several years ago - real public, in their face, "rub their nose in it" humiliation.

No mercy, no single shots - full automatic assault on this nonsense.

Go for it Dawkins, and take no prisoners!

429. Eight-million-year-old bug is alive and growing

Comment #62135 by scottishgeologist on August 8, 2007 at 9:52 am

Hi Billy, No, but I know St Andrews quite well. The Geo Wall is a neat project and it is in a good place for visitors to see it.

I was thinking about Knockan Cliff as well, before you mentioned it. NW Scotland is of course a Geopark, and they are hoping to get Lochaber Geopark status as well. These initiatives are all good and they are all very much "public understanding of science" in the strictest sense.

We need more!

430. Eight-million-year-old bug is alive and growing

Comment #62104 by scottishgeologist on August 8, 2007 at 7:03 am

Yorker

Hi! Glad to advise. The word "whin" or "whinstone" is a bit of an elastic term. It is usually used as a sort of laymans term for what is known as dolerite. Dolerite is a basic rock, intermediate in grain size between a basalt and a gabbro. The Central Lowlands of Scotland have a lot of it, and yes, you do get a lot of it in Fife. It forms a lot of dykes and sills , mainly of Carboniferous age.

It makes a good road metal or building stone so it gets quarried a lot.

There is a famous sill in the North of England called the Great Whin Sill. There is a good wikipedia entry here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whin_Sill

Also, just as an aside there is a good little project in St Andrews which shows the rocks of Fife:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/gg/html/geolwall.html

Again, what we have here, and there are other examples of this sort of thing, is a public outreach project. It would be good to see a lot more of this sort of thing, for all the sciences.

In your other posting you mentioned icy planets. Europa, is one of Jupiters moons and it is icy. It'll be interesting to see what ever gets discovered there!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon)

Just realised I've quoted wikipedia twice. The Flea would not be happy......

431. Eight-million-year-old bug is alive and growing

Comment #62032 by scottishgeologist on August 8, 2007 at 1:28 am

Aussie,

Spongs writings are interesting - the Wee Flea reckoned he was just an atheist anyway on another thread. At least Spong has got the intellectual integrity to say, "look it doesnt all add up does it?" and not blind himself with the absolutist certainty of other faith heads.

Another guy who is sort of similar is Richard Holloway, erstwhile leader of the Episcopal church of Scotland - very similar ideas to Spong

Of course Holloway's comments are on the cover of Richard Dawkins DVD!

432. Eight-million-year-old bug is alive and growing

Comment #62031 by scottishgeologist on August 8, 2007 at 1:24 am

I agree with a lot of the comments so far. (Ok there are only 4..... :-) The problem with dealing with the faith heads and the new agers is that it CAN sound a bit negative - we all know that there are some really serious, dangerous even issues realted to unreason that need to be dealt with, but I dont think that that precludes a swathe of good positive stuff as well

I would like to see a lot more science stuff being promoted - good positive stories that make people say and think "Wow!" Get people really thinking about the univers, the earth etc and education will work as the antidote to unreason.

I suppose this is where people like Carl Sagan were hugely successful. Personally Id like to see Richard Dawkins doing something similar to Cosmos. The DVD of the RI lecture is a massive step in that direction. Lets have more of the "science rocks" stuff!

But without dumbing it down. (Or is "science rocks" a dumbed down statement anyway? :-))) ...Not if youre a geologist!


Oh yes, and by the way, all this microbes stuff. There are only 2 POSSIBLE explanations:

1) They were planted by God to look old to test your faith

2) Satan put them there...

433. Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

Comment #61813 by scottishgeologist on August 7, 2007 at 1:54 am

Hey, just noticed, 9:52 BST (bullshit time maybe?!!!) this morning, and all 10 comments are on the same article

Ony two possible explanations:

1) An idiot has penned some complete garbage
2) The Flea is on holiday

Or both? :-)))

434. Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

Comment #61812 by scottishgeologist on August 7, 2007 at 1:50 am

A lot of the faith heads are guilty of new age BS as well. I remember once, about 15 years ago - it was when I had just started "going to church" again (sorry, I apologise, shame....) anyway, I heard this idiot in the pew behind me talking to his wife about how is horoscope had been accurate that week... And I know a lot of christians who use homoepathy and other quack cures.

I dare say the real fundies avoid these things "they are of SATAN!!!" but some of the more mainstream ones are into it.

Of course a lot of the real fundies are into demon possession, fake (sorry faith) healing, "spiritual" warfare and all that crap. I know a woman telling my wife recently that she felt she was "under attack" because of a few domestic disasters - broken washing machine, rain coming in and car had died - all at the same time. A clear sign that the ghosties, ghouls and things that go WOOO WOOO were ganging up on her. All propelled and marshalled by the horny goat with the trident no doubt.....

435. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61301 by scottishgeologist on August 4, 2007 at 1:54 pm

Stevencarrwork said:

I accept what people say if they provide good arguments and reasons for what they say. I don't care if somebody has a Nobel Prize. If what they say is not convincing, then I won't be convinced

Good point. A good example of this is the case of the famous astronomer Percival Lowell. PL thought that he could see "canals" on Mars that had to be built by intelligent life. Lowell would have been looked up to and respected, but he was talking rubbish. There are no canals.

An article in "Astronomy Now" touched on this a couple of years ago and gave very good reasons for what Lowell was seeing.

Subsequent viewing and research shows a very different Mars.

There are 2 points:

1) Science is self correcting. Religion rooted in an "innerant, infallible inspired Word of God" can never be

2) Authority proves nothing. Experts, like Lowell can get it hopelessly wrong

It all boils down to EVIDENCE. Repeatability, falsifiabilty, testability.

And just because Dawkins says something doesnt mean everyone here says "Oh, amen to that!" I dont. So there! :-)

436. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61286 by scottishgeologist on August 4, 2007 at 1:14 pm

Stevencarr asked "Is there something wrong with Robertson's brain?"

I think Wee Flea is trying to make a name for himself. He seems to be setting himself up as the UK's leading christian apologist. Trying to make a name for himself. He has already taken up a very large percentage of the comments posting on this site.

His own church web board is little more than his own Dawkins debate forum. He seems to hold a position of considerable influence in his own church - he is now the editor of their magazine.

I can see exactly what he is doing.

He'll go back to his christian chums and claim how he gets abuse here and play the victim of "atheist fundamentalism"

It is worth mentioning, however , that there are those in his own church who dont particularly care for him. He is constantly engaged in battles with other people from a similar theological perspective. Almost like he likes controversy.

On the previous Free Church web forum he was constantly having run-ins with other people.

And in the battle with the FCDA, which resulted in the schism that created the "Free Church (Continuing)" (I kid you not....) Robertson was heavily involved in the thick of it.

I am sure a psychiatrist could make something of it.

437. The Out Campaign

Comment #61281 by scottishgeologist on August 4, 2007 at 12:53 pm

Re: evidence

This keeps coming up time and time again. There is a fundamental problem here: atheists, rationalists, scientists have a clear idea of what evidence is. It needs to be empirical. Can you measure it, repeat the measurement, verify it, get someone else to check and so on. Pretty obvious really. Trouble is, you cant apply that to faith. As soon as you start "proving" spiritual things, they are no longer spiritual, but then become a natural phenomenon.

Rationalists and religionists occupy two different domains. And to my mind, the ONLY ways to "prove" that the religious view might have something in it is as follows. 3 headings:-

1) Prayer. Show that it works. Show that talking to God actually makes a difference that is well beyond that which is statistically expected. Studies have been done and they prove no power of prayer whatsoever – these have been well documented

2) Speaking in tongues. One for the charismatics. Record some tongue speaking. Play it back to some "tongue interpreter" who has had no contact whatsoever with the tongue speaker. Record the translation. Repeat this with ANOTHER tongue interpreter who has had no contact with either of the other individuals. How does the translation stand up. If the two translations are very similar, I would say "hey, hold on, might be something in this" Otherwise I say BS

3) Prophecy. Plenty of latter day prophets around. If one of them could come up with some seriously good and "way beyond the statistically expected" results, then again, hey, maybe something here. Of course we know exactly what the results have been so far

4) Healing (sorry I added a 4th point) All these "faith healers" They claim to do their stuff by the power of the Lord. Specially anointed to perform healing. Right, go out to Iraq, and raise a few dead bodies. That nutter Marvin Andrews believes in dead raising. So does Reinhardt Bonnke. OK, lets make it a bit easier – how about healing an amputee? Been discussed before , but here it is again. Would be pretty impressive and the atheists would be reeling. Come on God, you game for it?

There you go. Four areas where the "supernatural" interfaces with the natural. Claims from believers. Claims that can be tested. And up to now, as far as I am aware, claims that prove absolutely nothing. Religion works OK up to a point, I don't doubt it. It is a good crutch for some people, and may have some utility to that end. It provides a social experience " going to church"

Other things that could swing it a bit, would be certain archaeological evidence. And of course, Jesus himself putting in an appearance. And certainly, finding a rabbit in the Cambrian would certainly give evolution a bit of a shock.

Thanks for listening
SG

438. The Out Campaign

Comment #61164 by scottishgeologist on August 4, 2007 at 2:11 am

Veronique

I just love your use of words - its got that "cut through the bullshit", Carlinesque quality to it.

Off to Perth eh, that'll be the Oz one, not the Scottish one. Otherwise, you would actually be within 20 minutes drive of the Flea.....


Anyway, speaking of Fleas and women in the church, heres something to make your blood pressure rise:

He suggests that the Free Church needs to review the ordination of women. This is a quite extraordinary statement to write in a secular newspaper. There would be no problem if he was referring in general to the concept of ordination or the idea that women should exercise a diaconal ministry (for which there is clear scriptural support). The difficulty is that the readers of the WHFP will quite clearly understand it to be talking about women elders and women ministers. Now I while I have no problem with that personally or emotionally, I do have a problem with it scripturally. No matter how I try it seems to me that the meaning of Scripture is clear, unambiguous and plain. The Lord does not allow women to be elders or ministers. It is for that reason that I could not and probably would not be allowed to join the Church of Scotland (because I would be compelled to do something I thought was unbiblical) and I will fight tooth and nail to preserve the Scriptural order of male eldership in the Free Church

From: http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2007/may07.htm

Actually, I dont have a problem with that. If one binds oneself to the position that Scripture is infallible, inerrant, inspired "word of God" then the Christiasn is behoven to believe this.

The key word in all this of course is IF.

Cheers

SG

439. Islamic creationist group launches glitzy, global blitz

Comment #61152 by scottishgeologist on August 4, 2007 at 12:48 am

Diplo, re your comment:

It would be interesting to lock up some Christian fundies and Islamic fundies in a room and see how the debate went (after throwing away the key, of course...!)


Actually, they would have so much in common, as long as they stuck to oppression of women, hatred of gays, hatred of music, dance, nightclubs, enjoying yourself etc. lots of discussion of creationism, evils of EVILution and science, oh yes, opression of women (yeah, I know I mentioned it, but its so important to these f*cktards, it would definitely come up a second or 3rd time). Oh yes, and killing. Lots of it. Esp those who dare to disagree. Blow them up or invade their countries, the chorus would go.

Like you say throw the key away. And soundproof the whole thing. The rest of the world could then party in safety.

Mines a beer, cheers!
SG

440. The Out Campaign

Comment #61148 by scottishgeologist on August 4, 2007 at 12:40 am

Of course a lot of this sex and childbirth stuff goes right back to Genesis 3:16:

"To the woman he said, I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you" NIV

So, lets get this straight, if they HADNT taken a bite and "fallen" , human childbirth would be relatively painless and womens lib, the Suffragettes and the bra-burners of the 60s wouldnt have been necessary?

The really sad (and dangerous) thing is that this has been taken so literally and so seriously for so long.

441. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61102 by scottishgeologist on August 3, 2007 at 3:37 pm

Epeeist, yes thats a good one with Brian May and Patrick Moore. Just handed in his PhD thesis after a , what 30 year break?

In fact I had just picked up on that from the BBC site and it was on my mind when I made that comment about Bruce D.

And of course Bruce Dickinson is also a qualified pilot.

Ah the skills of these guys!

442. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61033 by scottishgeologist on August 3, 2007 at 11:35 am

Hi Epeeist, wasnt Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden fame not a bit of a fencer? I heard he was actually up to Olympic standard, but got into Heavy Metal instead.

Love Iron Maiden - a lot of HM doesnt get above the booze n leather n denim n women level, but Maiden are genuinely inventive and quite clever. How many other HM bands would write a song about Paschendale for instance?

OK, sorry, gone off -topic again, back to Fleas...

443. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60978 by scottishgeologist on August 3, 2007 at 8:22 am

Riley

The official reason was (verbatim):

Message Board closure

Following a meeting of the Communications Committee of the Free Church of Scotland on Tuesday 6 March, it was decided that the Message Board should be closed down until further notice while a new format is discussed and agreed upon that will reflect the interest of the church better, appeal more to our own constituency, and be more useful to the cause of Christ.

Increasingly, the message board was reflecting attitudes and discussions that the Committee feels are unrepresentative of the church, unhelpful, and distracting. This in no way refers to the thread on David Robertson's interaction with Richard Dawkins' atheism (as has been suggested by some), which was one of the better discussions.

It is hoped that a way can be found to set up a forum where such subjects can be debated sensibly.

Derek Lamont
Convener of the Communications Committee

People were discussing stuff like exclusive psalmody, spiritual matters, church discipline, other denominations, evangelism in the 21st century, biblical inspiration.

Stuff that was obviously of very little importance. So they pulled it.

The fact that there were some exceedingly sharp and penetrating items by the many rationalists and atheists who had signed up for it apparently had nothing to do with it.The fact that the theists were getting pwned on their own web site was not an issue, apparently.

Hmmmmmmmm.

They now have message board which is absolutely useless because of the moderation AKA censorship

Actually, I used to visit the old Free Church notice board (it was on boardhost.com at one time) during my "believing" days because, of all the churches in the UK and Scotland in particular, it was really lively and loads of comments used to get made, often from unlikely sources and often from all over the world.

They've blown it.

You can actually get a *bit* of a flavour of the board that they removed and then re-did again (www.fcosonline.org) by going to web.archive.org and putting http://www.fcosonline.org into the search form:

This in other words:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.fcosonline.org

Actually web.archive.org is a hidden internet treasure - you can find all sorts of old web sites that way. Unfortunately, a lot of dynamic pages dont get caught, so bulletin boards and such can be a bit poorly represented. Worth a go though.

Yet another web place to waste time in addition to YouTube and here....

444. The Out Campaign

Comment #60899 by scottishgeologist on August 3, 2007 at 5:19 am

BAEOZ

Re granite - most of the granites in Scotland are of Silurian / Devonian age, related to the Caledonian Orogeny. Others as well of course, some Tertiary ones to be found. And as Billy says some good gabbro as well

(Often thought a guitar body made from a slice of gabbro would be the ultimate ROCK instrument. The sustain would be something else. You'd need a strap 2 feet across of course to hold it however...)

There is a phenomenal variety of rock to be found here. Most of it very old.

Certainly a lot older than 6000 years....

445. The Out Campaign

Comment #60881 by scottishgeologist on August 3, 2007 at 4:16 am

Billy

Yes, its a good point. But I am finished now with this one. These online spats are starting to get repetitive. There is a pattern emerging and the Flea seems to be getting more than his Warholian 15 minutes, and certainly getting more than enough "oxygen of publicity" He is also getting enough flak to keep him satisfied with "persecution" for some time I am sure.

Lifes too short to waste on these matters. I've got rocks to explore, snow capped peaks to climb and ski, distant galaxies to gaze at over the dark winter nights, masses of classic rock and heavy metal to listen to.

Oh yeah, and buckie tae bevvie oan and burdz tae shag.... (only kidding.... :-))

446. The Out Campaign

Comment #60874 by scottishgeologist on August 3, 2007 at 3:44 am

David, Wee Flea

Let me get this right:

1) You have a confessional standard, based on Scripture
2) It is , as far as your Church is concerend second only to the bible
3) Ordinands for the ministry "own and believe the whole doctrine contained in the Confession of Faith"
4)Your church website leaflet gives the WCF prominence

And you say:

a)It is historically inaccurate.
b) And you dont believe certain parts of it
c) And in 25 years of FC ministry you have never heard anyone make the "pope as antichrist" claim

I've heard of cherry picking, but this really takes the biscuit. Lets make up some rules (based on our infallible guide), lets make our pastors submit to them. And then let them feel free to pick and choose the ones they want!

Dont worry, David, I promise you, I will say no more on the subject. Have the last word if you like - I know you just have to have it.

447. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60658 by scottishgeologist on August 2, 2007 at 3:58 pm

dazzjazz

Feel free! The avatar came from a web site full of free avatars (cant remember exactly where it was) but yep, go ahead.

In fact, if you got a hold of one of those programs that allows you to edit gif files, you could make your own variation on it.

Somebody else on the site had another good avatar featuring T shirt designs ( cant remember who, but it was very funny as well)

Have fun!

448. The Out Campaign

Comment #60643 by scottishgeologist on August 2, 2007 at 3:08 pm

Wee Flea:

358. Comment #60454 by scottishgeologist - This is getting boring. I did not take any vow about the Pope being the antichrist and I specifically at the time I was asked about taking vows said that.
I accept that you think things are simple but I would suggest that sometimes life is a wee bit more complex that you allow for.

OK, here goes:

1) From the downloadable pdf leaflet on your church web site: "All these Bible truths are affirmed in the ancient creeds of the catholic Christian church as well as the Westminster Confession of 1643 to which the Free Church is committed"

I'll repeat: the WCF states UNEQUIVOCALLY that the Pope is the antichrist. And from this recent leaflet of your church we read that the "FC is COMMITTED to it"

2) And, again , from your church website Internet Library, "Hold Fast your Confession", the article by Clement Graham, he writes:

1 The Ordinand's Pledge--Three Worthy Emphases

"Do you sincerely own and believe the whole doctrine contained in the Confession of Faith, approven by former General Assemblies of this Church, to be founded upon the word of God; and do you acknowledge the same as the confession of your faith ... ?'

Clement Graham then goes on to write:
Anyone who has attended a minister's ordination or induction service in the Free Church of Scotland has heard this question put to the ordinand and responded to with an unqualified affirmative... and so on

So, I ask you David, although as a minister in the FC you are SUPPOSED to hold to this "pope as antichrist" stuff, you tell me you dont?

There is only one word for it. It begins in "bullsh" and ends in "it"

Note: For those not so familiar with this stuff, the Westminster Confession of Faith (supposedly the subordinate standard of the Free Church) states in Chapter XXV:

"There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God."

449. The Out Campaign

Comment #60455 by scottishgeologist on August 2, 2007 at 1:49 am

Ah steve99, dont you just love it when faith heads have the cheek to refer to "peer review" and "scientific papers" ?

450. The Out Campaign

Comment #60454 by scottishgeologist on August 2, 2007 at 1:47 am

David, the point about the Pope as antichrist is to do with integrity and honesty.

Lets spell it out:

1) You took ordination vows
2) Part of those vows was subscription to the Westminster Conmfession of Faith
3) The WCF states that the pope is the antichrist
4) Therefore you are behoven to accept that

If you dont believe that then you are in breach of your ordination vows

And if you cant be trusted on that point, why should you be trusted on anything?

Its that simple