401. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255112 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 11:10 pm

Oh, I love N. California. I lived in Davis when I was in junior high and I went up to spend long weekends with friends to go hiking and hang out in SF a lot when I lived in L.A. I thought you were British or Australian for some reason.

402. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255110 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 11:06 pm

roots - whoa! I'd have to say Bush, because his ranch runs mostly on green energy. Sarah on the other hand had a tanning bed installed in the governor's mansion and "fired" the cook. That's pretty stupid if you ask me. :)

403. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255109 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 11:04 pm

Mordy

Ah, well, good to have caught a moment with you then. I've been OK, except for a really painful sprained shoulder and arm. Also, been freaking out over this election and scandal after scandal, lie after lie... But having seen the debate tonight and now unable to sleep, I don't think I want to go any further into it. Where are you? Australia?

404. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255105 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:51 pm

So, how're things? I haven't seen you lately.

edit -- alright, I'll talk with you later after you're done watching our next president prancing around in her bathing suit. She didn't win by the way, I might add (cattily).

405. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255104 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:51 pm

Uh, no. Just asking. :)

406. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255101 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:49 pm

Wow. Sounds like good fun for her. :)

407. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255099 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:39 pm

Is it a pet kookaburra?

408. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255098 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:39 pm

I'm sorry I don't mean to sound like an "apple polisher" here, but I thought you looked cute, too.

409. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255095 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:33 pm

Hi Laurie, I took a look at your blog and I like the pictures. Haven't had time to read much yet, but am planning on going back.

Hi Mordy, are you still speaking to me?

410. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #255094 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:30 pm

Oh, Styrer, only one person said that about skimming your posts and she apologized. Plenty of people here enjoy you and your fire. ;) Most of us probably skim some posts some of the time anyway. Have you ever read one of mine? You're missing out!

Steve -- you are a delight. I've still been chuckling over that reveling in being an insufferable prig comment every time I think of it.

Goatboy -- I guess I'm one of "steve's boyz," 'cause I'd like to kick your ass for being such a patronising jerk to him.

411. Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidates

Comment #255087 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:06 pm

Laurie and others -- there are some really good posts here. I just went back & read some.

Another note on Socialism or Marxist Socialism -- and I am sure Laurie and others know more than I -- but a key piece of Marx's idea was that you did need a period of capitalism before Socialism would really work, because it is very effective at setting up infrastructure, but then it ultimately fails for the reasons we're seeing now: corruption, greed, lies. Countries that became communist or socialist, which failed or haven't done well, did so because they didn't have everything in place first. You can't count Cuba really because of the way the U.S. has interfered with it economically. Cuba has done some amazing things with the resources they have. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. People always want to shoot down Marxism and what they're really doing is just parroting something they've heard somewhere, but really haven't studied. Consider it a truly untried experiment. Countries with a modified socialism have done very well and have very high standards of living.

Hello, Robotoholic, I don't want to insult you, man, but you are a major parrot about this stuff. It is obvious from your reflexive, unthoughtful, angry posts that you haven't yet really thought anything through yourself. It's too bad to see you so upset over this stuff. I spent over a year really looking and reading conservative and conservative Christian views to understand them. I ultimately found those views to be too rigid and morally inconsistent, basically, and not for me. But at least I looked.

edit-- Further on Marxist Socialism. I just wanted to note that I am not for or against it, because I would need to study it more. I just know that little bit of information that always seems to be overlooked by people who criticize it.

412. Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidates

Comment #255079 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 9:40 pm

Christopher Davis - nice post. I was just wondering where you were, too. Oh, I better clarify though. I don't like McCain. He lies through his teeth and watching the debate tonight, I found him tiresome and thought, "God, we've seen a million of these!"

413. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #255045 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Cute, Titania. Have fun and enjoy your evening. I haven't tried Jameson. Do you also like Woodford Reserve? A Kentucky woman introduced me to that. :) Good stuff. I think we are going to watch the debates. If you get to Boston sometime and have an hour for coffee, maybe I could meet you. I live a couple of hours away. Thanks for the sympathy. Apparently, I have sprained my shoulder and arm. Nothing serious, but surprisingly painful. My son and I have just been hanging out doing quiet, rainy day stuff. He also sometimes watches Scooby Doo or Pingu on the computer with me while I read RDnet. I felt guilty today, because we didn't do much.

Sciros - Sorry if I misunderstood. It is an interesting topic. I would not try to tell anyone what decision to make about something like that.

edit -- forgot to mention hub came home early today. :)

414. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #255009 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 3:18 pm

Brian English and Logicel -- (Did I say this earlier? I am losing my grip...) I found your horror stories profoundly shocking. I am sorry you both had to go through such disturbing experiences.

Titania, Be a good one to post on the Palin thread if you haven't already. I saw this rape kit policy before and it certainly is hard to defend if you want to seem like a woman who cares about women, or heck, just people who've been hurt. Just a note, I've read it happens in other places too, not just Wasilla. So much for the Vagina American vote. Ha ha! (That's a Daily Show reference.)

Sciros - I agree with you that quality of life is entirely subjective. Certainly no one is proposing that anyone end the life of any child, because they are already here and already suffering. But if you know a child may have a poor quality of life and suffer so, such as the poor child Titania describes, how can you choose to bring them into the world just to see if they can endure it? Why would anyone take that gamble? It HURTS ME when my child is hurt. That's a normal parental response. There was something really wrong with the woman she describes.

415. Zehirli Yilanlar, Kaygan Yilanbaliklari ve Harun Yahya

Comment #254986 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Is that clear -- I probably shouldn't interact with you, 'cause you can be bit nasty sometimes, but I genuinely wanted to share something rather exciting with you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/14/AR2007121400571.html

Christian theology says that man is made from dust. And science shows that in some ways that is actually true. Isn't this cool?

With chemical elements forged over 14 billion years in the fires of high-mass stars that exploded into space, and with these elements enriching subsequent generations of stars with carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and other basic ingredients of life itself, we are not just figuratively but literally made of stardust.

"We have now been able to show that, amongst all of the invertebrates that exist, Xenoturbella is one of our very closest relatives.

"It is fascinating to think that whatever long-dead animal this simple worm evolved from, so did we."

416. Zehirli Yilanlar, Kaygan Yilanbaliklari ve Harun Yahya

Comment #254970 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 2:04 pm

Erik Li -- interesting story.

417. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254956 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 1:42 pm

CFL - don't think it is cowardly to admit you aren't sure what you think on something. As for my personal feelings toward abortion, I wouldn't get one myself, except under very special circumstances. I was horrified when my childhood friend told me she'd had one as late as six months into it. There are good reasons it's such a hot topic.

418. Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidates

Comment #254945 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 12:53 pm

AAAAaaararrrrrggggggghhhhhh! Screeeeeeecch! sdjfl;asdjlfuiwou jaseo;fjaxclkvnm lfjsd;pfrjudo; fujsdjf l;saj!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AARARAARGJGJGG!!!! **hates** **despairs**

But then I thought: Alright here's the chance to remove their tax-exempt status, because it is totally unjustified! Let's go! We're ready to rumble!! Tomorrow I'm going to send an email to the IRS and my reps in Congress saying that I'd like the government remove tax-exempt status for religious institutions. We could use the money after all.

By the way, it's dead wrong that we all just naively trust our politicians. There's tremendous distrust of politicians here -- just not enough of it to make a difference, especially when big business manipulates everything to its desires.

edited

419. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254932 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Decius, Fanusi - PMs for you

420. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254927 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 12:22 pm

CFL - No problem. I was surprised, because I think you are usually quite nice and lucid. :) But you never know what somebody is going to get worked up over either.

My point was stemming from my beginning to think about the abortion issue less from a personal, privacy and "women's rights"-centered position (although those are quite valid) and more from a public policy argument because it really does affect so much more than any given woman or fetus.

edit for typos

421. When Atheists Attack

Comment #254915 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 11:53 am

Since the issue of "Ad Hominem" attacks was so prevalent on this thread and has been used to dismiss criticism of Sarah Palin, in particular, I wanted to provide this from a link Decius provided on another thread. I've added emphasis a couple of times to highlight a distinction about the validity of ad hominem arguments.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/fallacy.htm#Ad Hominem

Ad Hominem

You commit this fallacy if you make an irrelevant attack on the arguer and suggest that this attack undermines the argument itself. It is a form of the Genetic Fallacy.
Example:

What she says about Johannes Kepler's astronomy of the 1600's must be just so much garbage. Do you realize she's only fourteen years old?

This attack may undermine the arguer's credibility as a scientific authority, but it does not undermine her reasoning. That reasoning should stand or fall on the scientific evidence, not on the arguer's age or anything else about her personally.

If the fallacious reasoner points out irrelevant circumstances that the reasoner is in, the fallacy is a circumstantial ad hominem. Tu Quoque and Two Wrongs Make a Right are other types of the ad hominem fallacy.

The major difficulty with labeling a piece of reasoning as an ad hominem fallacy is deciding whether the personal attack is relevant. For example, attacks on a person for their actually immoral sexual conduct are irrelevant to the quality of their mathematical reasoning, but they are relevant to arguments promoting the person for a leadership position in the church. Unfortunately, many attacks are not so easy to classify, such as an attack pointing out that the candidate for church leadership, while in the tenth grade, intentionally tripped a fellow student and broke his collar bone.

422. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254898 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 11:22 am

Mitchell 720:

No abortion should be compulsory. Is there any situation that is, I wonder?

Bonzai -- I suppose you're right. :)

423. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254889 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 11:12 am

CFL - I'm not discussing eugenics. I am discussing the ethical questions involved in compelling or encouraging people to have children who will be severely disabled. You have seen a para-Olympics, which is a celebration of physical activity and triumph and "normalcy" for children/people with developmental problems. I was referring to the parade of wheelchair-bound, moaning, drooling, miserable children and teenagers with physically-contorted bodies who I saw at the hospital in another country.

edit for mistakes

424. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254881 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 11:01 am

Bonzai - Agreed. I think those types of parents must experience a strong sense of self-satisfaction coming from martyrdom. "A life" is not enough. Some of these kids even have chronic pain. It's really heartbreaking. Public policy has to be based on the full complexity of ethical concerns not, as I mentioned in a previous post, on some narrow application of moral outrage.

425. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254870 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:49 am

703. Comment #254863 by Bonzai

Regarding severely malformed fetus. It is not just a burden to other people. What kind of quality of life can this child look forward to if it is born? A life of pain, medications and little chance to become anything but a ward of some care taker in some institutions or hospitals, let alone having anything resembling a fulfilling life. Moreover, chances are it will die young anyway,--if nature is merciful.

426. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254866 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 10:40 am

Fanusi -

hawt, you got it in one:I oppose the draft. That's it. The draft is hideous. But a volunteer military is fine. I also don't buy into the premises of your second statement (they remind me of the "halp us jon kery" fiasco). These are adults who have made a choice.

427. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254782 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 7:50 am

563. Comment #254600 by Brian English

Odd, I thought a comment from an expert who works in Victoria would've had some relevance. My bad. :)

428. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254777 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 7:46 am

Sorry I have a page or more of posts to read so I don't know if someone has already taken issue with this statement.

551. Comment #254572 by Fanusi Khiyal

The reason I'm anti-abortion, hawt, is that I cannot see any moral standard by which it is ethical to sacrifice one human life to another. I can understand every point you make, yet I can still not agree, because that's the line that can't be crossed.

429. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254769 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 7:34 am

From linked article in 548. Comment #254521 by Titania

Concerned Women for America, argued the U.S. does not pay for abortions in the U.S., and shouldn't overseas, either. Nor should family planning organizations counsel on abortion at U.S. taxpayers' expense.

430. When Atheists Attack

Comment #254749 by hawt4dawk on September 26, 2008 at 7:12 am

Titania & Mitchell... -- **delighted chuckle**

edited

431. When Atheists Attack

Comment #254486 by hawt4dawk on September 25, 2008 at 6:47 pm

Titania, Decius -- does seem like an odd mistake for him to make, if it was a mistake. If it was intentional: What a boob! ;)

432. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254410 by hawt4dawk on September 25, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Thanks, Gregg. :) I find it embarrassing to reveal such a vulnerable moment. I felt like one of those soldiers dying on the beach in the opening of Saving Private Ryan. It made me afraid that death might be horrible and it actually led me a lot of postpartum anxiety for awhile. Much better now four years later, thank goodness! The kid is a blast and well worth the effort. :D

I'm off for now to watch "Run, Fat Boy, Run". I hope it as good as "Shaun of the Dead." Bye for now. :0)

433. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254345 by hawt4dawk on September 25, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Thanks, Brian. :) I've liked a lot of your posts in this discussion, too.


In fact, I find the strength of male support shown here for women to be highly reassuring, especially since this degrading and frightening concept of placing a woman's rights beneath fetal rights is actually being promoted in some quarters. I hope the posters here will not retreat from their discussion. It is quite interesting to read the arguments.


I appreciated also the birth stories from some of the men, too. I almost told a personal story last night, but then felt too embarrassed, almost ashamed, to admit how much in pain I was and how frightened I was at one point when I was in labor. After fourteen hours of "natural" labor, I became exhausted and asked for an epidural. After I was no longer able to focus, the pain became as overwhelming as a semi-truck. I was on my hands and knees in the bed crying, "help me, help me, please help me" while my husband stood by in shock and unable to do anything for me. There is so much more gory detail to bringing a child into the world, but I'll spare you. :) But, the story had a happy ending, at least, I had no serious complications and neither did my wonderful son. :)


A woman has the fundamental human right to control her own person. I have the strongest conviction that compelling women to bear children they don't want is an egregious moral wrong to the women, the children and to society itself. Those concerns far outweigh the sad harm done to a fetus.



Please consider that about two-thirds of people who live in poverty are women and children. In impoverished countries, many children may have the "right to be born," but they don't have the right to grow up with access to food, clean water, security, immunizations, education and often humane treatment. They are also very vulnerable to human slave traffickers. Yet if the women had the education and access to family planning those same miserable conditions could be reduced.

http://www.humantraffickingsearch.net/



As for our own society, it is a serious error to focus moral outrage on the narrow experience of the aborted fetus while deliberately ignoring all other factors. In fact, I find the concern for fetuses rather suspect, not because I don't think there are no moral considerations, especially as the pregnancy advances, but because those crying foul for fetuses do nothing to promote contraception and actually work to block women's access to that as well. I'm sure as most people here realize, the abortion controversy is really about the attempts of religious authority to abrogate civil rights and gain more political power by using miseducated or uneducated people with a narrow moral application to a complex issue as their foot soldiers.

434. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254298 by hawt4dawk on September 25, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Thanks, Decius. I will write you today or tomorrow with some questions. :)

435. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254263 by hawt4dawk on September 25, 2008 at 1:51 pm

Perfect use of an icon! She mentioned that it was unpleasant for both, but I was trying not to overwrite. :)

436. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254254 by hawt4dawk on September 25, 2008 at 1:40 pm

Jesus86, are you high on coke? Your superiority trip is one of the more outrageous ones I've seen on this site so far. :)

Your personal politics may reject the idea of a government-regulated social contract, yet such a societal arrangement exists.Furthermore, doctors have medical associations in which they regularly engage in discussion of ethics and professional conduct and they lay out their positions to the public. Do you realize that everyone arguing here is basing their understanding on that? Meanwhile you seem to be basing your argument on the idea that doctors are some kind of ordinary tradesmen. These guys aren't being dense. The premise of your argument isn't based on reality, it's based on your fantasy of how society should be. At least in my humble opinion, that's how it looks in my reading of it.


I highlighted some items that I thought were relevant to what is being discussed. Australian Medical Association link:

http://www.ama.com.au/web.nsf/doc/WEEN-6VL8CP

The AMA Code of Ethics articulates and promotes a body of ethical principles to guide doctors' conduct in their relationships with patients, colleagues and society.

This Code has grown out of other similar ethical codes stretching back into history including the Hippocratic Oath.

Because of their special knowledge and expertise, doctors have a responsibility to improve and maintain the health of their patients who, either in a vulnerable state of illness or for the maintenance of their health, entrust themselves to medical care.

The doctor-patient relationship is itself a partnership based on mutual respect and collaboration. Within the partnership, both the doctor and the patient have rights as well as responsibilities.

Changes in society, science and the law constantly raise new ethical issues and may challenge existing ethical perspectives.

The AMA accepts the responsibility for setting the standards of ethical behaviour expected of doctors.

1. The Doctor and the Patient

1.1 Patient Care

1. Consider first the well-being of your patient.
2. Treat your patient with compassion and respect.
3. Approach health care as a collaboration between doctor and patient.
4. Practise the science and art of medicine to the best of your ability.
5. Continue lifelong self-education to improve your standard of medical care.
6. Maintain accurate contemporaneous clinical records.
7. Ensure that doctors and other health professionals upon whom you call to assist in the care of your patients are appropriately qualified.
8. Make sure that you do not exploit your patient for any reason.
9. Avoid engaging in sexual activity with your patient.
10. Refrain from denying treatment to your patient because of a judgement based on discrimination.
11. Respect your patient's right to choose their doctor freely, to accept or reject advice and to make their own decisions about treatment or procedures.
12. Maintain your patient's confidentiality. Exceptions to this must be taken very seriously. They may include where there is a serious risk to the patient or another person, where required by law, where part of approved research, or where there are overwhelming societal interests.
13. Upon request by your patient, make available to another doctor a report of your findings and treatment.
14. Recognise that an established therapeutic relationship between doctor and patient must be respected.
15. Having initiated care in an emergency setting, continue to provide that care until your services are no longer required.
16. When a personal moral judgement or religious belief alone prevents you from recommending some form of therapy, inform your patient so that they may seek care elsewhere.
17. Recognise that you may decline to enter into a therapeutic relationship where an alternative health care provider is available, and the situation is not an emergency one.
18. Recognise that you may decline to continue a therapeutic relationship. Under such circumstances, you can discontinue the relationship only if an alternative health care provider is available and the situation is not an emergency one. You must inform your patient so that they may seek care elsewhere.
19. Recognise your professional limitations and be prepared to refer as appropriate.
20. Place an appropriate value on your services when determining any fee. Consider the time, skill, and experience involved in the performance of those services together with any special circumstances.
21. Ensure that your patient is aware of your fees where possible. Encourage open discussion of health care costs.
22. When referring your patient to institutions or services in which you have a direct financial interest, provide full disclosure of such interest.
25. Protect the right of doctors to prescribe, and any patient to receive, any new treatment, the demonstrated safety and efficacy of which offer hope of saving life, re-establishing health or alleviating suffering. In all such cases, fully inform the patient about the treatment, including the new or unorthodox nature of the treatment, where applicable.


2. The Doctor and the Profession

2.1 Professional Conduct

1. Build a professional reputation based on integrity and ability.
2. Recognise that your personal conduct may affect your reputation and that of your profession.
3. Refrain from making comments which may needlessly damage the reputation of a colleague.
4. Report suspected unethical or unprofessional conduct by a colleague to the appropriate peer review body.
5. Where a patient alleges unethical or unprofessional conduct by another doctor, respect the patient's right to complain and assist them in resolving the issue.
6. Accept responsibility for your psychological and physical well-being as it may affect your professional ability.
7. Keep yourself up to date on relevant medical knowledge, codes of practice and legal responsibilities.

2.3 Referral to Colleagues

1. Obtain the opinion of an appropriate colleague acceptable to your patient if diagnosis or treatment is difficult or obscure, or in response to a reasonable request by your patient.
2. When referring a patient, make available to your colleague, with the patient's knowledge and consent, all relevant information and indicate whether or not they are to assume the continuing care of your patient during their illness.
3. When an opinion has been requested by a colleague, report in detail your findings and recommendations to that doctor.
4. Should a consultant or specialist find a condition which requires referral of the patient to a consultant in another field, only make the referral following discussion with the patient's general practitioner except in an emergency situation.

437. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #254239 by hawt4dawk on September 25, 2008 at 1:28 pm

About this case:

Saw a doctor today for my sprained shoulder and arm and asked for her opinion about this thread topic.

I asked the doctor what she thought about this type of case and she said when she was in training the OB/GYN segment had some training that was considered "optional", however,for a doctor to refuse to provide a referral based on personal beliefs or preferences is considered medically unethical and a violation of patient rights. She said she doesn't like giving rectal exams either, but she couldn't imagine refusing to provide that service based on her feelings. She said that while a lot of doctors complain about what medical school personally cost them, it is a mere fraction of the societal investment in medical education and so most doctors feel they owe their best professional service to their community.

She agreed with my point that when a doctor makes a referral all they do is fax a paper to another office. It is then the patient's job to set up an appointment for a consultation. Rarely would an invasive medical procedure occur at an initial consultation anyway. The idea that a referral is so morally repugnant seems a huge stretch.

Speaking of a stretch, maybe male doctors will refuse prostate treatment on the grounds that it could constitute sodomy. **waves away groans**

438. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253733 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 9:11 pm

Decius - Hi, may I send you a PM tomorrow sometime?

439. Catholic maternity wards 'face closure' if abortion law passes

Comment #253362 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 11:15 am

According to the Christian religion, the fate of one's eternal soul is determined by a person's relationship with God and, in some sects, their good acts. Given the differing ideas of how best to please God, they must follow their conscience.

A Christian doctor, for example, decides it is okay with God for him to provide artificial insemination services, but he also decides that God wouldn't want a lesbian to have a baby. If another doctor feels that artificial insemination is an abomination to God, how can the first doctor justify this? Who is right about what God wants? Let's say the first doctor feels God is pleased with babies no matter how they're made. Yet, the lesbian whom he refuses services feels God wants her to have a baby. If the doctor is free to practice as his conscience demands, so is the woman free to have a family and intimate relationships based on her sexual preference as her conscience demands. But that doctor would deprive the woman of equality in both the private and civil arena (trade), just as the second doctor would deprive the first of his livelihood.

When someone demands the right to deprive another of their rights or to discriminate against them, they compromise their own rights to equal treatment.

If one's religious conscience is so deeply troubled by such issues, there will be careers that are closed to them and that is a cross for them to bear, a sacrifice to their God. So be it. That would be true piety.

440. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253313 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 9:36 am

Skylark, who art on ceiling, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done in the White House as it is on the ceiling.

Gotta go now for awhile!

441. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253289 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 9:11 am

Lev -- I know! I know! This site! :)

Sev -- You mean "of all fings." Poor Skylark, demoted from ceiling cat status. My cat is weird, too. He likes quinoa spaghetti and hummus.

Your ON-TOPIC post was "meaty" about playground stuff. Sickening political manipulation that works embarrassingly well -- at least embarrassing to us poor uninsured elitists. ;o)

442. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253282 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 9:02 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onsen

http://www.hida.jp/english/

443. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253280 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 9:01 am

Bonzai -- I lived in Sapporo for a couple of years and we traveled around to some places. I don't know what your interests are, but some of my fave places were Hida Takayama, the aquarium in Osaka and Osaka in general, Nara and a mountain monastery near Kyoto. What I miss most about my regular activities were going to onsen, kaiten zushi and private "booth karaoke". Also the game centers are rad. I'm sure there a load of people here with more knowledge about Japan, but that is my two, okay, five cents worth. :)

Sargeist - no, really, I think you actually meant to be funny!

444. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253270 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 8:50 am

In Japan, there are manga cafes everywhere you go and kaiten-zushi (O MIGOD my idea of heaven).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conveyor_belt_sushi

edit to add: Mitchell -- did you see Densha Otoko? It's really sweet. Kind of reminds me of RDnet now that I think about it.

445. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253264 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 8:44 am

Sargeist - oh, dear, you can't compliment some people. :) No, it's 'cause you made merry jests.

Whenever someone mentions "Goodfellas" I hear that opening sound that turns out to be occurring in the trunk of the car. **winces**

446. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253255 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 8:32 am

Quetz - Yes. Very cool.:)

See free plug below!

http://www.lulu.com/content/2317231

http://www.lulu.com/content/512237

447. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253245 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 8:21 am

Hellene -- That's an interesting link, but why do you keep posting it?

Quetz - Baby! I knew you were a clever one, but really I'm impressed now.

Sargeist - You've made me laugh/chuckle/smile so many times lately. Just wanted to acknowledge that.

Lev - agree with you and always glad to have your particular perspective from South Africa.

448. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253238 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 8:09 am

Titania, I agree with you about the Supreme Court. If that goes one person further toward the theocratic right wing, we've lost the principles on which this country was founded.

Fanusi, please. the neocons have been SO effective against terrorism. Didn't the "Americans" just cause some of your bombers to go free? Great going, Republican administration. Woo hoo! That's keepin' 'em at bay!

I am sorry, but the last 8 years has been a complete travesty, economically, politically, diplomatically. Civil rights have been diminished, our elections have been rigged and tampered with, right to suffrage has been infringed severely among minority voters, our international reputation is at an historic and deserved low, our economy is nearly on the brink of another depression, which could drag the whole world down with us. The Republicans (and many Democrats) are in the pockets of big business who are trying to squeeze every bit of wealth they can out of the world. They lie, they cheat, they steal. The Bush administration is nothing more than Big Oil in the White House and they've done everything they can to block progress on climate change awareness and counter-measures. These are not even the Republicans of the 1970s, much less the 1940s. The Democrats are NOT all that much different but, unfortunately, they are possibly a better option for us at this point in time. If the Republicans were really offering hope for America they wouldn't have to resort to disrupting our democracy and stealing the vote.


Votes are being stolen, now, by hundreds of thousands-- and the Democrats aren't doing anything about it: RFK, Jr.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4071366

449. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253210 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 7:40 am

(And I am not discounting the threat of jihadists. I happen to disagree with you on who (McCain or Obama) will be more effective in dealing with the issue.)

450. When Atheists Attack

Comment #253162 by hawt4dawk on September 24, 2008 at 6:45 am

1147. Comment #252929 by Mitchell Gilks

Mitchell, last night I lay in bed mentally writing a post in my head either to you or Styrer regarding what I considered to be a pretty vicious attack of you on his part. I was worried about you. I thought you handled it so non-defensively and effectively, but I know if I had been criticized like that, it would have really hurt me. He said something about you have a go at him, but I had been reading the thread as it unfolded at that time and I don't remember you saying anything particularly provocative. I thought he was in a bawlin'-and-brawlin' mood and having a go at everybody he could remotely justify having a go at, including South African Ian. I generally like Styrer, but not when he turns his ire and foul mouth on people who don't deserve it. So, are you okay? I enjoy your posts and think you are an admirable person (based on some personal things you've said about your background and where you're at now). I also find you to be a comforting presence for some reason. :) I am sorry I didn't say anything at the time; I needed to go bed. Anyway, as I said in my previous post to Titania, I am behind about a page of comments here.