You can be an atheist and a cultural Christian (or Muslim, Hindu, whatever). You life won't change and neither will that of your children...unless you have godparents unlike mine (I think my aunt was one...not sure...). There are things you have to make a stand on, some you accept grudgingly and some that you accept because...well, you do. I accept Xmas - I like presents and feasting to excess. Is the god message there in the Goldthorpe household? No.... Not even the gods (sic) message as we have a tree and that's pagan, eh? Heck, I even get asked what my Christian name is sometimes ;-) It's still Mike...but Christianity is very missing in me...

How utterly bizzare!

Body, not bosy. Can't get comments back to edit...maybe the gods hate this site on my behalf or something ;-) Maybe NZ os becoming more religious and the net nannies have started censoring :-O

Quetz
Yep, and that bastard god decided to put that tree in the garden, eh? And gave explicit instructions not to eat of that tree...this an all knowing god that can see into the future too...

Aaaah, good to see the religious are as stupid as ever :-D Nothing like a dose of gods to cause the bosy to shit out the mind ;-)

Right, a-bed for me. Number 2 will probably wake me up again soon....I am exhausted....only a few more months...years to go...I hope....

:-)

How amazing it is to believe in such a Creator! I pray that you would find the same peace as I have--in the arms of God.

I have...always have. Never felt I needed some woo to feel the way I have since birth. Just live normally, have a good family - it's the natural way to be. No gods or woo necessary.

Tell me, you had a hard life - some nasty experience? I just ask as everyone I know who needed woo was mentally screwed at some time or other....

So you see, the word ‘religion’ does not necessarily mean believing in God, or any other ‘god’. Evolution, atheism, empiricism, they are all religions in the sense that they, too, are beliefs. Perhaps you believe that there is no God. Values. Something that you hold strongly to. Not a clever practice? Yet you yourself do the same.

Lessee....the exaples you give....

Evolution is actually a scientific theory. hardly a belief. It's right there with heliocentrism and gravity. Perhaps you'd explain to us how this can be a belief in a religious sense....

Atheism - well, now you're close. It could be seen as a belief. In some cases, it is (I believe, though not in the woo sense, that Buddhism is an athiest belief in many cases). Not bad, not bad...

Empiricism...ok, had to look that up...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism
This a belief? In the religious sense? You'll have to justify that to me, old boy. I can't see it myself - a way of thinking, sure...but a belief? Naaaah...can't see it myself...

Ooooh, of course...

Heheheheheh! We really shouldn't equate a cartoon with this serious talk of ribs and talking sn...chortle, snigger...sorry, snakes. I mean....hnnng, snigger....this is a serious discussion...*oh please, my sides hurt* chortle...about real things... WAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

Oh, man....I go away for a long time and come back to this??? :-) Next thing people will tell me is that religious loons will try and rewrite history! Oh wait...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magazine/14texbooks-t.html?em

28. Comment #461438 by TheCreator\'sChild
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Priceless!
Guess what - God doesn't exist! No amount of believing is going to make God exist! There was no tree, no Eden, no Adam and no Eve. Snakes never talked and no angel ever kept Adam and Eve out of the garden! It's all copied from other myths!

I never said that atheists are 'less moral' than theists, but morality is something that cannot be in your worldview

Guess what, like your belief in sky daddies, you are wrong. I am very moral. I have never sinned. I have never lied. Morals are my worldview - more so that yours. You wouldn't know a moral if it fucked you up the arse, mate. I am moral, you are not. And you cannot say otherwise because I am moral because I am, not because I'm scared of some non-existant nonetity that does not exist :-)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/science/16archeo.html?8dpc

Of course, the experts are probably wrong and someone with a text of mythology is probably right... ;-)

Comment #461427 by TheCreator\'sChild
??????????
Are you for real? ;-) Yes, of course you are. Now, do you have any solid proof that your claims are correct?

This home schooling malarkey - if I read this right, it's basically because some people don't want their little children "contaminated" by...well, whatever it is they don't like. Morality is something I hear a bit, but then I read this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/7189188/Atheists-just-as-ethical-as-churchgoers.html
:-D
Admit it, home schoolers - you just don't want little Johnny to sit next to those mucky kids from the other side of the tracks, eh?

Interesting and related article
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/28/showcase-118/
I had to smile at the clothes they were looking at in the market...

284. Comment #456025 by root2squared
I had to laugh too - in Shanghai I saw quite a few people out and about in PJs. I thought it odd but my wife tells me it's normal.

My views on all this veil and minaret discussions....it is discriminatory. Anti Muslim discrimination but I think it is a case of shooting across the bows. Seems a lot of people are scared of Islam in Europe and this is a way of placating the majority and sending a message to the minority to keep the hotheads in check.

In this case (France) I have a feeling quite a few of the "ban the burqa/niqab" voices were actually Muslim. And don't forget France has strict religious and state separation - we can't see this ban with out multi-culti eyes. As I read things, its not like the ban is total, just in places where, most likely, other overt religious symbolism is not acceptable.
As it is, one does not have to wear Saudi attire in other countries, no matter how you read your mythology. 1.6 billion Muslims as far as I can remember the stats and the Arabian costume is very much in the minority. The niqab (I think this is what most think is the burqa) is not Muslim and if it is being worn, it is as a politico-religious badge (bit like nuns, if you think about it - after all, they basically shut themselves off normal life when they take their vows).
Would I bean it? No - but I would allow people to restrict it's use if they feel it offends others and if they think it would cause social unrest of some sort. It is, really, a red flag to a bull, isn't it?

One hopes these veil-wearing-and-proud-of-it women would also lend their voices to this discrimination...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7092885/Tesco-dress-code-bans-customers-in-pyjamas.html

Fuck me! A full 3 minutes to load this page. Fuck sakes!
Right, off again for a few months. Hopefully things are quicker when I try again!

On a related note
http://nakedwalk.org/
Story in the press here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6977441/Naked-rambler-faces-life-in-prison.html
I can't recall there being as much hand wringing about this even though, to me, it is exactly the same.
Those that want to wear the veil better be prepared to support those that want no clothing at all...or accept the consequences of their inaction :-)

Corylus. yes, I been meaning to come back for a spell but it's hard, especially when I'm meant to be working. 1 year old means home time is too hectic and there's the weight loss thing that's taking up time too :-)
I'm busy, me! :-D
J. Mills - no chocs on me! I'm becoming skinny!

They call it Mohican in the UK. Don't know why.

Last of the.....

Blimey, takes me absolutely ages to load up the latest comments page. No wonder I hardly ever write anymore. Sad, I really miss RDNet...but I just can't get it :-(

Alovrin
I was thinking something akin the the Tui ads
http://images.google.co.nz/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=tui ads&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=ANEmS5OHO4WAsgOQ_YnHDA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQsAQwAA

"There is a God in Heaven"
Yeah, right...

;-)

226. Comment #441753 by alovrin
In Switzerland, they're not allowed to call the faithful to prayers....rendering minarets a tad superfluous.
But as you say, why bother with them given the numerous functions one can have on mobile phones. Heck, you can have the alarms to alert you AND a nifty little GPS to allow you to really face the right way :-)
I found the mosques in Penang during my recent holiday there OK. Nice, subdued and mildy exotic. Not like the mosques in Syria. When I was in Deir Ezzor, there was a mosque being built opposite the staff house I live in. Didn't bother finishing it - just hook loudspeakers on the caretaker's shack and blast out the call to prayers at full volume. Oddly, I got used to the daylight calls but the one at 4 am always woke me up....
227. Comment #441777 by Eric Blair
One wonders what the burghers of Switzerland would make of Jain ascetics, some of whom do not even like wearing clothing...

Right, home time for me. Hard to keep coming here as it takes too damn long for the Latest Comments to open. I suppose it is, in a way, a method of keeping the kooks out but unfortunately it is effective in minimising my participation. Oh well....

At least atheist bus messages are coming to NZ :-)

223. Comment #441750 by root2squared

This does not mean, however, that any cultural nonsense that goes against the law should be tolerated though. And that's all we need to do. Enforce laws.

In the article

Muslims also outscored the general public for their belief in courts, honest elections, financial institutions and the media.

I have a feeling quite a few people agree with you.

221. Comment #441744 by root2squared
That's another thing - atheism. Church attendance is going down in Europe - in fact, I have a feeling there's a bunch of redundant churches littering the landscape (I know of a few converted into flats, a garage and other non religious uses.
The number of mosques is tiny (by mosques I mean buildings built and designed expressly for worship, not a converted garage) so I can see a demand for them....but how big a demand. A lot of "Muslims" I knew were as Muslim as I am Christian and going to a mosque wasn't really in their worldview...
As the Torygraph article says

The result of the surveys will fuel an on-gong debate on the merits of multiculturalism that has seen Britain compared poorly with other countries of Europe which have insisted that Muslims integrate into their way of life.

France banned Muslim pupils from wearing headscarves in classrooms five years ago and last month Switzerland voted to ban the building of new minarets.

In Germany, Muslim immigrants have only been allowed citizenship since the 1990s.

The Soros report found that 55 per cent of Muslims across the EU believe that religious and racial discrimination have risen in the past five years.

Nazia Hussain, director of the research project, said: “There is a disturbing message that emerges from these findings. Even though Muslims overwhelmingly feel British, they’re not seen as British by wider society.

“That said ... there has been a policy of trying to accommodate difference here and it appears to be paying off.”

You get people to join you better by accepting them as opposed to changing them. Sure, there'll always be those that wish to remain "in the old country" (and sometimes I and my wife are just like that category...to our shame) but many will not. Britain has had many in influx (maybe not is as great a number, admittedly) over the ages and, barring language and cultural changes as a veneer that makes modern Britain what it is, they have all pretty much assimmilated. OK, in Bradford you still have a German Evangelical church (for the Germans that moved there a century ago...google Little germany in Bradford) and there's a Ukrainian church and Polish churches and clubs galore (I knew a...3rd (?) generation lass in Uni - fancied her rotten! She still spoke Polish, though her main language was Yorkshire English. Also met a Polish feller who had lived in Bradford for about 40 years and still couldn't speak English. Anecdotal...use it as you will) - none of which altered the general Englishness of the area. Pubs in Bradford were not short of SE Asian looking people in Pakistani garb, speaking in broad Yorkshire accents and playing dominoes while poring Timothy Taylor's Landlord bitter down their throats. I'd wager the Islam they practised was more cultural than deep seated and allowing it to die gently by assimmilation is better than segregating them and forcing them to become something they are not.

Now someone is going to bring 16th century Spain in as an example of how forced assimmilation works....

:-)

Interesting article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6802960/British-Muslims-most-patriotic-in-Europe.html
This right after Dawn published this article
http://blog.dawn.com/2009/12/02/alternative-voices/
Comments in Dawn are interesting.
One wonders how much the Islamicisation of Europe is a media story as opposed to reality...

:-) Cheers for the welcome back from some ;-)
Nairb, I think I love you! Yes, Islamicisation in Europe, I think, isn't as big a worry as jobs, at the mo. I don't hear from it from my mates in the UK as much I read about it in the UK press.

Anyway, wife reimids me I have no more free time - marriage means what I thought was freedom is something completely alien! G'nite all!

Islamically charged vid from Iran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoXnKS_CsIk&feature=player_embedded#

“This is the Islamic Republic!” she shouts, gesturing at the vehicle.

According to the NYT article

Comment #440955 by Niccolo

btw one of the guys behind the minaret ban is a Turk. His name is Soli Parmos, & he was born in Izmir. Just a little titbit there, for all those dooheids who want to try to play the "racist" card ...

One would be most interested to actually read the religious/ethnic composition stats of those who voted no to minarets. I used to know an Iranian lass that, though a practising Muslim, was rather scathing of Islam as it is sold to us. Same, I guess, with the current batch of Iranian students...http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/world/middleeast/11iran.html?_r=2&hpw
My views on this are a bit ambivalent. The ban was for, in my opinion, the wrong reasons. The backlash it provoked, mind you, also has that shitty smell of hypocracy to it (I read an article about it in a Malaysian paper condemning it, yet it didn't seem to be too concerned about the confiscation of Bibles that referred to God as Allah....)

Sorry for my long-ish absence. Not that anyone probably noticed... ;-)

Many Syrians I worked with were cultural Muslims. Just that. Many didn't, as far as I could tell, believe - they went through the motions like many Europeans do.
Muslims are labelled people, just like us. I know I am one of the 2.x billion Christians I read about. That article regarding the number of Muslims was the same (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6275406/Muslim-population-worldwide-grows-nearly-1-in-4-people-practise-Islam-study-says.html). 1 in 4 people are labelled Muslim, they are not Muslim.
It's all a crock, a game of religo-political Top Trumps.

162. Comment #423441 by root2squared
They're all stories. The scary part is when they're elevated to reality...
;-)

Do you know of any debates between evolutionists and religions besides christianity on youtube or anywhere?

Well, there's Islamic creationism...and there's those hindus that said the link between Sri Lanka and the Indian mainland was actually made by Rama's monkeys...which is pretty close
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/space/2007/09/bridge-built-by-monkeys.html

yes, if they were right, I'd still be wrong, but if I am to believe the most vocal religions, I'd still be wrong. Yet the vocal religions tell me the Hindus are wrong and they are in fact correct.
They can't all be right but they can all be wrong ;-)

Tom, let's not be too hard on the man (I'm assuming). He doesn't have to prove that gods exist, not even his pet one.
He does, however, probably need to use some form of argument other than "This god is sooooooo out of our mental league we can never understand him"
Keeo the arguments at our level and we can slowly demolis....errr, work up to higher levels :-)