Salvation Army says “Gays Need to Be Put to Death”

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Christmas, it is the time of the year for holiday shopping, and also hearing the bell ringers for the Salvation Army collection donations. Those donations provide Christmas dinners, clothing, and Christmas toys for children in need. The charity collects millions of dollars in donations every year, and they distribute it to needy families, seniors, and the homeless in keeping with the spirit of the holiday season.

17-sep-2013 For those who think anyone might be confused as to if this is or is not a photoshopped image.  It IS or it's at least a staged photo.

 


The Salvation Army has expressed their Christian beliefs in the past, stating that they do not accept the LGBTQ lifestyle, nor do they stand up for gay marriage. Salvation Army went on record recently, stating that LGBTQ parents should be put to death as the bible instructs. Major Andrew Craibe, a Salvation Army Media Relations Director, went on public radio hosted by journalist Serena Ryan, to discuss a recent call by LGBTQ parents for a boycott of the nonprofit for its anti-gay policies and beliefs.

Ryan questioned Craibe about Salvation Story: Salvationist Handbook of Doctrine, the manual used to train Salvation Army “soldiers” and members. Several chapters refer to the sin of homosexuality, including a section that cites Romans 1:18-32, which includes a admonition that homosexuals “deserved to die”;

“ Ryan: According to the Salvation Army gay parents deserve death. How do you respond to that, as part of your doctrine?”

“Craibe: Well, that’s a part of our belief system.”

Ryan: So they should die.”

“Craibe: You know, we have an alignment to the Scriptures, but that’s our belief.”

Written By: David Volz
continue to source article at tgvnews.com

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  1. If they said the same thing about Jews, these people would be arrested for inciting murder or hate speech. Their organisation would be treated like a neo-Nazi group, and certainly would lose it tax free status at the very minimum.

    Ho hum. Sweet little old ladies virtuously encouraging their sons to kidnap gays and drag them to death behind their pickups. How cute.

    It is not just the Sally Ann who does this, it is most of the Christian churches. It is so familiar, nobody bats an eye.

  2. Your’re right – “put to death” – holy fuck they’re not holding back!

    In reply to #4 by Roedy:

    If they said the same thing about Jews, these people would be arrested for inciting murder or hate speech. Their organisation would be treated like a neo-Nazi group, and certainly would lose it tax free status at the very minimum.

    Ho hum. Sweet little old ladies virtuously encouraging their sons t…

  3. More from the original blog.

    Last Friday the S.A. got good publicity (u.s.), it was ‘National Donut Day’, created by the S.A. Stores had “free donuts!”; a free, goo filled bacon bit dipped donut is what most ‘mericans care about 🙁

  4. From now on, I’m throwing rocks at them. Calling for the death of people like that does make them a hate group. The KKK practices charity too. The KKK does a toy drive, highway cleanup, donates to children’s hospitals, and distributes food to the poor. Yeah… I’m throwing rocks at these cats.

  5. How do they feel about a prawn sandwich, or picking up sticks on the Sabbath, or wearing mixed fibres?

    Did they learn nothing from the Nuremberg trials ? The** “only following orders”** defence is no defence.

    Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

    Exodus 22.18

    Do they kill witches as well as LGBTs ?

    Salvation Army free from sin,

    Went to heaven in a corned beef tin !

  6. lol – I think that many Christians hold these views – I’ve heard people of ‘the older generations’ (old people) say that whether they are religious or not, too. It’s not going to make any difference to gay rights, so best not worry about it a lot.

  7. In reply to #4 by Roedy:

    If they said the same thing about Jews, these people would be arrested for inciting murder or hate speech. Their organisation would be treated like a neo-Nazi group, and certainly would lose it tax free status at the very minimum.

    If the Holocaust were treated as a human tragedy and not a Jewish one, I wonder if homophobic rhetoric would end careers as quickly as antisemitism. I agree with the virulent, and even at times hysterical responses to groups and people who are critical of Judaism, and Israel. I just wish this applied to all groups targeted in the Holocaust, not just the largest minority. The stigma of the nazis should extend to gays, gypsies, and any of the groups targeted then and now.

    If a politician is overheard uttering a statement in private company that can be even remotely construed as racist, that’s the end of their career, or at least a shaming scandal ensues and they become a footnote politician. Racism used to be a platform to run off of. I look forward to the day when homophobic remarks are just as crippling to a person’s social standing, privately and publicly.

  8. “Craibe: You know, we have an alignment to the Scriptures, but that’s our belief.”

    Salvationist Handbook of Doctrine, the manual used to train Salvation Army “soldiers”

    It’s a Xtian army of chanting “belivers” ! They are indoctrinated to “believe” – not to think!

  9. I don’t like the practice of photoshopping words onto signs to emphasise a point. It’s not reflective of this site’s emphasis on reality.

  10. In reply to #12 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee:

    LGBTQ?

    I know what the L, G, B & T stand for – what’s the Q?

    “Questioning”…

    Steve

  11. Damnit, if this doesn’t get our government to stop giving these people money, then nothing will. If that’s the case, what do we do next?

  12. This is a total surprise to me. I knew these people were a little too religious but I thought they were basically harmless.

    This is going to hurt the kettle!

  13. A Polish priest, with a smile, in broad daylight, in the main Krakow square calls for homosexuals to be ‘burned at the stake, like in he Middle Ages’: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IghbhD9VLM:

    Both the Salvation Army and the Catholic Church take their dogmas from the same holy scripture – the most hateful document ever compiled.

  14. In reply to #1 by N_Ellis:

    “Can we have them designated as a hate group?”

    I think we need to work toward that goal.

  15. “We have an alignment to the Scriptures, but that’s our belief?”

    Why do they squirm around these straight-forward questions? Is it their innate morality butting up against their religious morality? If they really thought an omnipotent being was backing them up, you’d think they’d be a bit more forthright. As it stands, they actually sound embarrassed to express their opinions (as they should be).

  16. I really detest these women. They have no idea how much misery they create with their hate speech.

    Here is one small example, I met a young man who had been attacked by the sons of such women as these. They shoved a beer bottle up his rear end, then broke it off. Then they beat him up and left him for dead. He has no rectum or anus any more. The perpetrators were never prosecuted, and had they been, the jury would most likely have excused them.

    Here is another. A man made a pass. The person who had the pass made did not decline, but instead got a boulder and pounded the man’s head into a pulp, like a watermelon. He was completely exonerated on the grounds anyone would have done that in those circumstances. Granted that was circa 1970.

    We have these little old ladies cheering these crimes from the sidelines, “Kill a Queer for Jesus”. “Don’t be a wuss. God commands it!” “Kill Kill! Make him suffer!”

    It is really quite unseemly and I don’t think we should look the other way any more.

    The source of nearly all this violence is the Chistian notion that gays should be put to death. All the churches refuse to repudiate this irrational teaching.

    Logically, that should be grounds for closing every last church as a hate group.

  17. homosexual>>>gay>>> gay & lesbian>>>> GLBT>>>>LGBT>>>>LGBTQ??? Come on, give me a break! What politically correct nonsense is this? And what will be next? Don’t get me wrong. As a homosexual, I am all for equality but this creeping political correctness, for which nobody has ever consulted or asked me, is unnecessary, divisive, and feels like the beginning of a cult or religion whose priests and priestesses – and someone will now object to both the root and suffix of the latter term – take unilateral decisions about labels. and the many non-LGBTQ who are falling over themselves to make sure they get the label right … oh dear, or dear, oh dear.

  18. Fag.

    In reply to #22 by Net:

    homosexual>>>gay>>> gay & lesbian>>>> GLBT>>>>LGBT>>>>LGBTQ??? Come on, give me a break! What politically correct nonsense is this? And what will be next? Don’t get me wrong. As a homosexual, I am all for equality but this creeping political correctness, for which nobody has ever consulted or a…

  19. Old news, though it’s worth repeating because this garbage certainly exists in both the OT and NT. The liberal and moderate Christians are just experts at pretending it’s not there or that’s it’s simply a metaphor (for what, I have no clue).

    Incidentally, I find it intriguing that the Criminal Code here is Canada exempts all religious scripture from hate speech laws. The Bible (along with other monotheistic texts) contains the most sadistic, hateful edicts I’ve ever read, but it conveniently gets a free pass. Religion should be taken off the pedestal and treated like any other bad idea humans have concocted.

  20. I was a part of that broadcast, as a presenter and producer of the story. The interview being referenced here with Serena Ryan and myself was aired in June 2012. It did not mention Gay Parents.. we spoke generally about the attitude to GLBT people within the Salvation Army and their views on gays and lesbians.

    The article here is incorrect in that you suggest Major Craibe (who was subsequently removed from his position after the interview) spoke about Gay parents. We reiterate this was not the case. The full interview with Ms Ryan and myself can be heard here: http://joy.org.au/saltandpepper/2012/07/salt-and-pepper-26-june-2012/

    Thanks

  21. Remembering that these may be the views of the heads of the organisation, but not necessarily (and from my experience, practically never) the views of the men and women who actually do the amazing work day to day.

    This picture makes it look like it’s the people on the streets who have this view; I don’t believe that is a fair or accurate portrayal of the reality.

  22. If anyone took this position in America behind any other facade than Christianity, they would be recognized legally as a hate group.

  23. If you talk to homeless people, they will tell you that the Salvation Army to this day is primarily for converting people to Christianity. If you accept their food or lodging, you are expected to at least pretend you have accepted Jesus as your personal saviour.

    I wonder how many people popping some bills into those cheery red kettles at Christmas know that. I didn’t when my landlady volunteered me to jingle the bells at a pot in Campbell River for a few days.

  24. In reply to #11 by This Is Not A Meme:

    In reply to #4 by Roedy:

    The way I see it, today Jews have the holocaust card, Israel can do any terrible thing and it is excused because they had such terrible stuff happen to them. I would expect them to be much more compassionate than average, but that is not how human psychology works.

    I and the public know
    What all schoolchildren learn,
    Those to whom evil is done
    Do evil in return.
    ~ Wystan Hugh Auden 1907-02-21 1973-09-29 poem “September 1, 1939”

    In general I have found Jews to be much more sensible than Christians, but the Israelis are something else again. There is a tradition of tolerance for difference of opinion in Judaism. You can disagree and still love each other to bits. Christians are of the thinking, if you don’t agree with me, I wish eternal torment on you, and God wants me to kill you.

  25. Not trying to start anything by stating this but can we please validate the research here before we assign Salvation Army to the dogs. I work with people who actually help poor and destitute in a major city in the midwest and I have never seen the Salvation Army turn down anyone (at least here) based on sexual orientation. They work with many other groups (secular) that all have one goal which is to help get people off the streets, clothed and moving toward some form of work/education regardless of their orientation. An article like this which maybe was meant to help LGBTQ’s might actually hurt them in my city since donations would be reduced. Please do reconsider looking at your own Salvation Army post in your city before you label them in this manner. If they state that they do not help LGBTQ’s to you directly then yes, of course do not donate because that post is not understanding the commission. I know the answer in my town as I have seen it in action for some time now. Thank you,

  26. In reply to #3 by aquilacane:

    Well, there goes any donations I use to make to them.

    No more clothing or household donations to SA. I think I’ll start reselling any items before I continue supporting hate groups.

    Next Christmas when I hear the bells ringing (if they still do this) I’ll say “sorry, but SA has made it clear that they discriminate against gays and stand in the way of them marrying.”

  27. To be fair this did not just happen recently. This was said a year ago. The Salvation Army went into immediate damage control and issued the following statement, “Statement in Response to Australian Radio Interview

    Alexandria, Virginia (June 25, 2012) – The Salvation Army in the United States fully and emphatically rejects the statements made by the media director of The Salvation Army Australia Southern Territory regarding the LGBT community. The Salvation Army opposes any discrimination, marginalization or persecution of any person. There is no scriptural support for demeaning or mistreating anyone for any reason including his or her sexual orientation. We stand firmly upon our mission to meet human needs in His name without discrimination.

    The Salvation Army in Australia has also rejected the opinions stated and provided additional information which you can view here.

    We deeply apologize for the hurt that these statements have caused.”

    http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/www_usn_2.nsf/vw-search/A2AF0257B165B3C085257A28005D5F1E?opendocument

  28. Well the Salvation Army can all be tortured to the point where they are begging death and i’ll be more than happy to help out torturing them 😀 Anyone else

  29. Sorry to be so late to this party as to not get read, but let me say how sad this makes me. The Salvation Army- as a relief organization- has always been aces in my book. I remember so many emergencies from my days as a reporter in which they were second to respond, taking care of the official first-responders. And they stayed long after the cameras had gone to bed.

    They just were not one of those religiously oriented groups where big bucks went to the top and the needy got the crumbs. These were do-gooders who actually did good. What a shame, they’ve dogmatically lost my long-time support as well.

    I am not neither gay nor a member of any other interesting group- just a deadly dull old wasp. But I firmly believe in John Lennon’s brotherhood of man- something I am gifted with genetically and not by doctrine. It’s just that now my compassion towards my fellow beings who happen to be religious is the same sort I feel toward suffering puppies, kittens or snail darters- not the same as I feel towards other sentient beings.

  30. did craibe not realize that in the bible it romans 1:18-32 it does not mention homosexuality once but being a prostitute or whore is what its referring to and also did they neglect to go onto romans 2:1-16 or did they skip the part about it saying you shouldn’t judge others for that’s gods right not there’s? fucking invalids who claim to practice Christianity but yet know nothing about it get your story straight before you go bashing other people next time I see a salvation army person asking for money ill tell them to piss off

  31. oh and it does not mention putting anyone to death in romans 1:18-32 read your bible more closely

  32. This is very sad because the Salvos (as they are called here in Australia) do do some very good things, usually without pushing their doctrine too much. When you think about it the name ‘Salvation Army’ is quite provocative.

  33. In reply to #33 by Thorspower:

    To be fair this did not just happen recently. This was said a year ago. The Salvation Army went into immediate damage control and issued the following statement, “Statement in Response to Australian Radio Interview

    Alexandria, Virginia (June 25, 2012) – The Salvation Army in the United States ful…

    Why are we posting year old statements that have been addressed in this manner?

  34. I was really really hoping that was somehow totally out of context. I was hoping that he merely got overwhelmed and gave a response he didn’t mean which he later corrected in the interview. I was wrong on both accounts.

  35. So maybe before hating on an organization and then back-lashing by commenting furiously without thinking, researching the details would be smart.

    Here is the real, unedited image:
    http://www.spcelina.org/storage/bell-ringer1.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1352238511627

    Also for those who don’t know, which seems like most of you hating on the Salvation Army, their bell ringers are all volunteers from other organizations like Kiwanis, Lion’s Club, Rotary Club, Churches and more. So if this were true (even though it isn’t) then it would have most likely been done by a volunteer and not someone associated with the organization other than they signed up at some meeting they went to.

    Either way, its edited, so continue hating on the organization. I doubt most of you donate money over $1-$5 anyways and I doubt you volunteer with them, if you do then awesome! But if you stop volunteering or donating then there are PLENTY others willing to help.

  36. Apparently I need to share this with you too, it’s edited

    http://www.spcelina.org/storage/bell-ringer1.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1352238511627

    In reply to #7 by This Is Not A Meme:

    From now on, I’m throwing rocks at them. Calling for the death of people like that does make them a hate group. The KKK practices charity too. The KKK does a toy drive, highway cleanup, donates to children’s hospitals, and distributes food to the poor. Yeah… I’m throwing rocks at these cats.

  37. I would be very careful finding a difference between ‘Jews’ and ‘Israelis’ and assuming that it is the latter that is guilty of the country’s excesses. When you spend time in Israel you quickly learn that the vast majority of these ‘Israelis’ who live on the densely populated coastal plain of Tel-Aviv and Haifa etc and are generally both secular and tolerant. Go east into the hinterlands and climb up to Jerusalem and you will find the religious groups and the policy-influencers of the country. And, yes, they are the ones who identify themselves as Jewish first and Israeli second. Sorry, but that is the case. There are few native-born in this clique – they are the fanatics who have come from America, Russia and other parts of Europe in the last 40 years. They are not ordinary Israelis.

    In reply to #29 by Roedy:

    In reply to #11 by This Is Not A Meme:

    In reply to #4 by Roedy:

    The way I see it, today Jews have the holocaust card, Israel can do any terrible thing and it is excused because they had such terrible stuff happen to them. I would expect them to be much more compassionate than average, but that is…

  38. What’s the point of this article ? It’s nearly a year old and the Salvation Army has apologised a long time ago.

    The only problem remaining for the Salvo’s in Australia as I understand it is that homosexuals are blocked from rising up the ranks. So they still don’t get my charity $. Why not go after them for that ?

    Michael

  39. In reply to #15 by Agrajag:

    In reply to #12 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee:LGBTQ?I know what the L, G, B & T stand for – what’s the Q?”Questioning”…Steve

    “Questioning” – Seriously?!!!

    Jesus Homosexual Christ!

  40. I would never trust the Salvation Army, although they are no more crooked that a lot of religious organisations. They coerced quite a lot of money out of an aunt of one of my friends. Initially it looked as if they were being neighbourly and friendly when they regularly visited her as her health declined but when her will was read she had left everything to them. There was a fair amount of money involved and the relatives of the lady had been told more than once that she would be leaving them all something, she also added that the money was to be enjoyed however they wished and they should not worry about frittering it away.

    On checking they found the will had been changed only about a month before she died. They tried to contest it but failed, it was about 40 years ago, I think they would have had a better chance today. Luckily they did not need the money but they were very annoyed at the underhand way their aunt’s supposed friends had used her.

  41. For those who want to know:

    ** Salvation Army doctrines **

    We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice.

    We believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect, the Creator, Preserver, and Governor of all things, and who is the only proper object of religious worship.

    We believe that there are three persons in the Godhead-the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory.

    We believe that in the person of Jesus Christ the Divine and human natures are united, so that He is truly and properly God and truly and properly man.

    We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency, but by their disobedience they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.

    We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has by His suffering and death made an atonement for the whole world so that whosoever will may be saved.

    We believe that repentance towards God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and regeneration by the Holy Spirit, are necessary to salvation.

    We believe that we are justified by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that he that believeth hath the witness in himself.

    We believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.

    We believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified, and that their whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    We believe in the immortality of the soul; in the resurrection of the body; in the general judgment at the end of the world; in the eternal happiness of the righteous; and in the endless punishment of the wicked.

    (Just another church then.)

  42. This is a very sad day. The comments made by Major Carib, were out of line, not reflective of Salvation Army belieif or in fact practice. Sadly some in the organisation have some very strange views. The bible spends an awful lot of time to tell everyone that they should be in fact loving everyone unconditionally, and not to be judgemental. not once, not twice, but hundreds of time. Jesus spent time with all the “wrong” people as well. Prostitutes, tax collectors, etc etc.

    Its not the Salvation Amry i know, where its always been about helping anyone who needs help. Alcholic, Drug Adict, Business Man, Grandma, or person whos house has just burned down.

    The comments where made in June 2012, and the Salvation Army very quickly apologised and made its real position known in an an open letter from the Commander in Australia.. The letter is avaialble at the link below.

    http://www.churchsw.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/salvation_army_open_letter.jpg

    I am a member of the Salvation Army, i have gay freinds, work colleagues and family. They are all welcome and loved, and respected.
    Like any group of humans, the SA, just some people who just dont’ knwo when to shut their mouths, and have very odd ideas.

  43. Romans 1: 18-32 is the passage which also says children who disobey their parents deserve to be put to death.

    Perhaps the Sally Army could let us know how frequently they either implement, or disobey, this divine injunction?

  44. This is the statement that The Salvation Army made to ‘clarify” the comments:

    “This is a misunderstanding of the text referred to. The Scripture in question, viewed in its broader context, is not referring to physical death, nor is it specifically targeted at homosexual behavior. The author is arguing that no human being is without sin, all sin leads to spiritual death (separation from God), and all people therefore need a Saviour,” the statement said.

    “The Salvation Army acknowledges that the response in the interview has led to a serious misunderstanding of our teaching and that clarification should have been given during the interview.”

    I don’t buy that excuse. The question was put in very plain terms and no reasonable person would have deliberately given an ambiguous answer.

  45. In reply to #54 by The Truth, the light:

    This is the statement that The Salvation Army made to ‘clarify” the comments:

    “This is a misunderstanding of the text referred to. The Scripture in question, viewed in its broader context, is not referring to physical death, nor is it specifically targeted at homosexual behavior. The author is argu…

    It sounds like a clear cut case of damage control. It sucks when your dogma gets in the way of societal consensus, and on this issue they are simply on the wrong side of history.

  46. There is a tendency to view disparate groupings as monolithic entities, and subsequently to judge all the groups according to the acts of a single member.

    Do we judge all Christians by the standards of the Westboro’ Baptist Church?

    Do we judge all Muslims by the standards of Abu Hamza, Bin Laden or (pick your least favourite Islamist fuckwit)?

    Do we judge all Jews by the standards of the the morons who spit on little children for showing too much skin?

    I may fail on occasion but I try to be better than that.

  47. 2 things – firstly the original transcript didn’t mention parents, secondly this wasn’t “recent” as mentioned but almost a year ago!
    Come on, this was a bad enough thing to happen at the time, especially to gays within The Salvation Army. It has taken LOT of healing to move on from this. There’s no need to make it worse by rehashing old news as new and exaggerating it!

  48. “Ryan: So they should die.”
    “Craibe: You know, we have an alignment to the Scriptures, but that’s our belief.””

    Talk about trying and failing not to sound like a homicidal maniac. Reverts to scripture to blame for his hate and intolerance without admitting that he would like to see them all die. What a weasel.

  49. In reply to #54 by The Truth, the light:

    This is the statement that The Salvation Army made to ‘clarify” the comments:

    “This is a misunderstanding of the text referred to. The Scripture in question, viewed in its broader context, is not referring to physical death, nor is it specifically targeted at homosexual behavior. The author is arguing that no human being is without sin, all sin leads to spiritual death (separation from God), and all people therefore need a Saviour,” the statement said.

    Ah! “Spiritual salvation death”! That must be the diametric opposite of the “reasoning brain death” (resulting from “faith-meme” infection), which is needed to produce this sort of “clarified” “interpretation” of text!

  50. If you or I ever end up at the bottom of the heap homeless and alone, its likely to be the Salvation Army that helps you to start rebuilding your life and picks you up. If the best the RDF can do is this pathetic piece of gutter journalism, then it’s along way from being a voice of reason!

  51. In reply to #4 by Roedy:

    If they said the same thing about Jews,

    What if I got a small group of gays together who handed out leaflets that said such things as:
    Christians do not deserve to live.
    Kill all the Christians and their devil spawn.
    If you tolerate Christians in your midst the Real God TM will punish you with earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes and perpetually losing sports teams.
    Stone all Chistians to death.
    Crucify the Christians.
    Christians are the fount of all evil, they must be killed.
    Do not suffer a Christian to live.
    Christians are infidels. The Real God TM commands you to kill them.

    I would expect a police officer to ask us to stop. If we didn’t, I would expect to be arrested. But when Christians behave this way, nothing happens to them.

  52. In reply to #61 by JeffVader67:

    If you or I ever end up at the bottom of the heap homeless and alone, its likely to be the Salvation Army that helps you to start rebuilding your life and picks you up.

    They will – in exchange for you giving up your reasoning abilities and embracing the bigotry and the woo!!

    If the best the RDF can do is this pathetic piece of gutter journalism, then it’s along way from being a voice of reason!

    That is the point about reason. It does not require confirmation bias or dogmas!

    The point about “Good without gods” for humanities sake, rather than for some god’s sake, has been made many times.

    “They do some good, so let’s ignore the indoctrinating of bigotry”, is not much of a rational argument!

  53. So, their creed apparently is: “We’ll help you out if you’re poor, homeless, hungry, disabled, orphaned, black, white, or brown, old or young…but if you’re gay you’re fucked!” How very Christ-ly of them. I’m sure that’s what Jesus – that long-haired, robe-clad, sandle-wearing dude who hung around day and night with twelve young guys – would say.
    Take any one of the other groups in the list and exclude them and SA would be called a hate group as bad as the Westboro Baptists; but apparently it’s okay to hate the gay. And the atheists.

  54. In reply to #1 by N_Ellis:

    Can we have them designated as a hate group?
    N_Nellis is right! Here in Canada, I’m not sure, but I think that breaches Canada’s Hate Crime Laws. On another note also, I guess we can no longer talk about just Islam when it comes to ‘radicals’. Christianity re-lost its moral authority in the post 911 world.

  55. FYI: The author has misquoted the radio interview. The general discriminatory sentiment is the same, but there is a rather obvious and inexplicable discrepancy in the wording. Basically, substitute “I” and “we” for “gay parents”. They were not talking about gay parents at all. They were talking about gays generally. Parents were never discussed. That’s an odd artifact that has appeared in the year since this story was fresh. The interview can be streamed here:
    http://joy.org.au/saltandpepper/2012/07/salt-and-pepper-26-june-2012/

    It’s worth mentioning that that both the Australian and American branches of the Salvation Army have distanced themselves from these comments. Though superficially PC, they’re pretty limp IMO, but they’re there nonetheless, and are meant to supersede Craibe’s comments. Both statements can been read here:
    http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/www_usn_2.nsf/vw-dynamic-index/B6F3F4DF3150F5B585257434004C177D?Opendocument

  56. In reply to #12 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee:

    LGBTQ?
    I know what the L, G, B & T stand for – what’s the Q?

    Queer — having a sexuality or gender that is none-of-the-above. It’s a rising group in the community thanks to the internet allowing people to discuss things more freely and realizing that they didn’t fit into the prior categories. There’s a surprising lot of them.

  57. So they advocate capital punishment for gays because it says so in scripture. Do they advocate capital punishment for children who give their parents too much sass?

    It says that in scripture too.

    Consistency, people. Consistency.

  58. In reply to #22 by Net:

    homosexual>>>gay>>> gay & lesbian>>>> GLBT>>>>LGBT>>>>LGBTQ??? Come on, give me a break!

    John Corvino addresses this issue better than most of us could. Enjoy:

  59. In reply to #61 by JeffVader67:

    If you or I ever end up at the bottom of the heap homeless and alone, its likely to be the Salvation Army that helps you to start rebuilding your life and picks you up…

    Not exactly. They do have such a project but they’re not the only ones, and they aren’t exactly supporting the kind of social contract legislation that would prevent homelessness in the first place.

    Most transients in the US come here to San Francisco to reintegrate back into the system because this town is the friendliest towards non-profits and as a result provides services that are almost nonexistent throughout the rest of the nation, even in those towns that have a strong religious charity base. That is also partially why (for those that have visited) we have an apparent excess of homeless (the rest is because of Ronald Reagan’s closure of the asylums and failing to create walk-in clinics).

    Oh, and one of the stories we most commonly hear: if you go to a church for alms in most of America, they often won’t feed you until you convert (or pretend to). So way to go with the unconditional regard.

  60. Too good to be true, eh? Mods, please take a bit more care before reproducing this kind of propaganda piece. At the very least a disclaimer “Pictures have been photoshopped”, or similar.

    And of course all the gleeful comments: Not giving the SA any more money, the bigoted b**tards. As if there aren’t enough genuine issues out there, lets fabricate something to get het up about.

    My thanks to those who tracked down the origins of this report, and the original photograph, and the clearly worded apology from the SA.

    I see there’s a button to “like” a topic. Where’s the one to flag it?

  61. In reply to #56 by SomersetJohn:

    There is a tendency to view disparate groupings as monolithic entities, and subsequently to judge all the groups according to the acts of a single member.
    Do we judge all Christians by the standards of the Westboro’ Baptist Church?
    Do we judge all Muslims by the standards of Abu Hamza…
    Do we judge all Jews by the standards of the the morons who spit on little children for showing too much skin?

    I have two concerns.

    Firstly, we’re not talking the WBC. We’re not talking the far-right radical extremists of Christianity, but the mainstream. Anti-gay rhetoric still remains part of the mainstream and moderate conservative denominations of Christianity. Even liberal denominations such as Episcopalians are not entirely pro-gay-rights but each parish (by which I mean their ministerial enclaves) are allowed to decide for themselves policies regarding gays, and because this can shift, there are frequent incidents of outed ministers getting fired, and outed parishioners getting banished from their respective churches. This is not just an extremist problem, it’s a pandemic problem.

    Secondly, when prevalent speakers such as elected representatives and television ministers say something in the name of all Christendom, even those who oppose their position remain conspicuously silent. If we had a renowned atheist come out, say, in favor of criminalizing religion, that would spark a torrent of dissenting opinions. (As did the occasional pro-gun argument even though the gun-control controversy has little to do with secular concerns). We’re in an age where people can and should be vocal about their positions, especially when they are either being misrepresented or when their colleagues are waxing extremist. And in the religious sector this is not happening, and as a result the Christianity is being stereotyped as homophobic, misogynistic and uncharitable.

  62. The current Salvation Army positional statement is here:

    http://web.salvationarmy.org/ind%5Cwww_ind.nsf/vw-sublinks/80256E520050A2E280256CB9005E9877?opendocument

    The Salvation Army stands against abortion access, but for birth-control access, within the limits of a married couple.

    The Salvation Army stands against gay marriage, defining marriage as between a man and a woman. It stands against sex outside marriage.

    The Salvation Army stands against free speech that would be regarded as obscene or blasphemous.

    Their position on Homosexuality is currently blank. it used to read as follows:

    The Salvation Army does not consider same-sex orientation blameworthy in itself. Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.

    So the Salvation Army position is hardly free from intolerance of non-conformist practices and lifestyles. They do stand to oppose those who live unlike they do. They do contribute to the marginalization of gays and women.

    And for this reason they deserve no regard. The Salvation Army’s embarrassment and response is not because they had a rogue agent, but because an agent revealed the actual intolerant policies that the Salvation Army continues to hold dear. Yes, their position regarding homosexuality is under review as of 2012, but that’s only their position regarding homosexuality.

    The Salvation Army is political and has chosen to stay political, and at least here in the US, that rules out tax-exemption, with the exception, of course, of accepted Christian institutions.

  63. For the second time in the last few days, a piece has been posted from a less than impartial site with a highly skewed editorial piece (previously “islamists and leftist chase college republicans…” http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/6/6/islamists-leftists-chase-college-republicans-out-of-their-own-movie-screening-video#) that commentors have taken entirely at face value simply, it seems to me, because it supports their preconceived prejudices. How can we credibly claim to be champions of reason and science if we behave exactly as those we critique. In this case, it is very clear that the Salvation Army as an organisation does not say ” Gays should be put to death” the author of this piece is projecting the views of one individual to the whole organisation to which he belongs. I am no apologist for the Salvation Army but the reactions on this diminish the credibility of RDFRS as a source for rational, sceptical debate.

  64. Jesus preached love,not hate. It’s really sad to see people acting like this,especially considering the highest commandment given was to love one another. Instead of actually spreading love (including to the LGBT community), some people think it means to only spread love to the less fortunate and to other Christians,and then actively hate and judge everyone else that disagrees with their lifestyle. According to The Bible,sin is sin,no matter what you do. In His eyes all ‘sin’ is the same and He despises all ‘sin’ equally, but despite all the terrible things humans do (because y’know,everyone makes mistakes!) He still loves us. I’m sure more people wish they could be treated with so much love despite their flaws,but the only actions we can control are our own. That’s why I treat each person I meet,despite religion/race,etc. with the utmost respect and humility,because it’s all I can do to make the world a little brighter for those I meet. We have enough to deal with as it is,so why not help each other through it instead of continuing to tear each other apart?

  65. if you want to quote the bible you should understand that Christ said not to judge. Christ does not categorize different sins anywhere in the bible.
    I think he said something like cast the first stone if you are sin free.

    we are all GODs children and as Christians we claim to be disciples of CHRIST which means we try to be CHRIST like so its up to us to love them the same way we would love anyone else.

  66. In reply to #79 by izus:

    we are all GODs children and as Christians we claim to be disciples of CHRIST which means we try to be CHRIST like so its up to us to love them the same way we would love anyone else.

    If only all Christians were to think as you do, izus but certainly here in the US, the majority do not. Indeed, as the conflict between the Vatican and Leadership Conference of Women Religious has demonstrated, the condemnation of gays and the subjugation of women (to their death sometimes) is of greater concern than the wars against poverty and famine, respectively.

    Reciprocity is the foundation of the John 8:7 narrative; as human beings we should all tolerate the human foibles of others as we are similarly flawed. But scripture without individual critical analysis allows it to be manipulated to reflect whatever message you want, and justify our less social instincts, such as kill the weirdos.

  67. It should be noted that the individual who posted this article is actually the author and editor of the source article at tgvnews.com. The article at TGVnews.com does not cite any sources and leans more toward an opinion piece than an informative “news” article. Both posts are incorrect in that this was not a recent occurrence, but something that happened nearly a year ago. The Salvation Army, worldwide, rejected the statements made in July 2012. In their words, they oppose any discrimination of any person. bit.ly/11qhdnz. Andrew Crabie was removed from the position.
    Furthermore, the scripture in question does not specifically target homosexual behavior. It says that ALL sin leads to death (not a physical death, but a spiritual death — a separation from God)… ALL sin, including envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice, gossips, slanders and the rest of a lengthy list of sins not related to homosexuality. In reality, we’re all sinners and we all need a little Grace.
    The Salvation Army (in the USA) believes that all people equal regardless of sexual orientation, race, gender, ethnicity or other factor, as per their National Commander in December 2012: bit.ly/UzCdSP

  68. In reply to #81 by GeorgeSpeaks:

    It should be noted that the individual who posted this article is actually the author and editor of the source article at tgvnews.com…. Andrew Crabie was removed from the position.

    Whether or not a whistle blower was disgruntled is inconsequential: you can look up the Salvation Army policies on their website (a link to which I already provided @ #76). The SA still holds scriptural beliefs as superior to principles that preserve human rights, that foster equality and hold no-one in privilege, and (at least for me) religious belief is not an excuse for intolerance. They will change these policies only due external pressure, and only to the extent necessary to relieve that pressure.

    Both posts are incorrect in that this was not a recent occurrence, but something that happened nearly a year ago.

    One year ago is a recent occurrence, and as I outlined in a prior post (#76) the Salvation Army remains a bigoted institution with bigoted policies, and your red-bucket dollars DO go to lobbying against gay rights, against abortion access and the usual bevy of conservative religious values inconsistent with social equality. (No, they don’t hire lobbyists directly but pay into lobbying firms)

    Granted, here in the Bay Area, I have Goodwill, which is a secular alternative to the services provided by the Salvation Army (as well as a bevy of non-profits). But I suspect that in many parts of the world the Salvation Army has its fair share of competitors. If you need something like the Salvation Army, it might be worth patronizing them instead.

  69. I was actually supprised by the title of this article but when they mentioned ‘religious beliefs’ then not so supprised.

    So by their methods two loving same sex parents should be killed and their child orphaned and traumatised from the loss just because they read it in a 2000 year old book that is ‘obviously’ all true

    I really don’t care what anyone believes its up to the individual but if you are to be a charity and accept public money those opinions should not determine who you do and dont help. Otherwise you should state that clearly at the point where you take the money, which I guess they dont do as they wouldnt last very long.

    Its the same blatent homophobia and bigitory which religions see as ‘ok’ as its part of their ‘beiliefs’ where if you took religion out of the equation and used common sense and some compassion you could see like most of us that its clearly wrong.

  70. Well, another branch of the religion of “love” is going rogue because they can’t digest the new society trends. After so much preaching about Jesus loves you, Jesus is the answer, lean on Jesus, etc, etc, now the hatred they kept within their subconcience has come out and has revealed their true colours: they want to kill people that happen to be different, or so they think, and the good Jesus is no longer for the task of loving all humans. Perhaps the uniforms the Salvation Army wear fit more with their new philosophy of killing people.

  71. That was old testament law! Jesus died for our sins so now we can be forgiven. Why do people act like we gotta live like that! Unless you don’t believe in Jesus! They took that too far!

  72. In reply to #85 by keven.chisum:

    That was old testament law! Jesus died for our sins so now we can be forgiven. Why do people act like we gotta live like that! Unless you don’t believe in Jesus! They took that too far!

    There are New Testament passages that are often interpreted as anti-gay. But then again, true Jesuits would sell all their belongings and walk the earth spreading the word. Most Christians are followers of Paul, not Jesus.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_New_Testament

  73. In reply to #77 by Tykeloiner:

    I am no apologist for the Salvation Army but the reactions on this diminish the credibility of RDFRS as a source for rational, sceptical debate

    Couldn’t agree more. Well said.

  74. In reply to #12 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee:

    LGBTQ?

    I know what the L, G, B & T stand for – what’s the Q?

    Qould we please stop adding letters to this acronym?

  75. In reply to #88 by PERSON:

    [LGBTQ?]
    [Could] we please stop adding letters to this acronym?

    Probably not.

    John Corvino explains a bit on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJ2_J0b4tM

    But one of the problems that is faced by fringe groups (whether sexual minorities or counterculture groups or weird religions or whatever) is that our approach so far has been to try to integrate each of them separately or in small clusters rather than seek out cultural change that would address the problem of exclusion in its entirety.

    And thanks to the internet, we now have people who would otherwise think they were unique, isolated and genuinely alone can find other people who have encountered similar difficulties, and often they’ll get together and realize they share a lot of the same concerns that these other folks who are more organized, and will integrate themselves into that community.

  76. In reply to #77 by Tykeloiner:
    I am no apologist for the Salvation Army but the reactions on this diminish the credibility of RDFRS as a source for rational, sceptical debate.

    Maybe you thought the RDFRS was a different thing than it is.

    Yes, most of us pride ourselves in having a skeptical outlook, and favoring observation and logic over revealed scripture, that doesn’t automatically make one a better philosopher (or a more moral person, or better at debate or whatever.) Atheists and skeptics (and naturalists and all the other overlapping groups that frequent here) are exactly the same kind of just folks that you’d expect in any other cultural group.

    Note: http://www.richarddawkins.net/foundation_articles/2013/6/12/richard-dawkins-we-are-atheism

    But observation and logic take practice.

    Avoiding the same biases that plague our theistic philosopher-brethren takes practice.

    Sustaining a moral high-ground takes practice.

    And I, for one, am at best a mere journeyman at these endeavors. There may come a time when I can add an extremely clever step to the great debates (a masterpiece, as it were) and become a master. And there may come a time when I achieve some sort of epistemological nirvana and can start my own cult of fanatically loyal non-believers, but not for a long while.

    We’re all trying to be rational here. Some of us might misstep. Politely point it out, if you think it’ll do some good. But otherwise cut us some slack: we’re only human.

  77. They also were the ones who threw away toys and books from their Christmas Toy Drive a few years ago because they were all from HARRY POTTER. All the news then was about how they found dumpsters of Harry Potter items. Salvation Army said they were all SATAN WORSHIPING things and no suitable for kids. A man said he picked up a M-16 out of the toys and was told, “That’s for 10 year olds.”

    Source: http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/12/08/16478011.html

  78. The link doesnt seem to be working so here is a copy of the press release, the orginal statement can be found by using the search function at salvationarmyusa.org

    Statement in Response to Australian Radio Interview

    Alexandria, Virginia (June 25, 2012) – The Salvation Army in the United States fully and emphatically rejects the statements made by the media director of The Salvation Army Australia Southern Territory regarding the LGBT community. The Salvation Army opposes any discrimination, marginalization or persecution of any person. There is no scriptural support for demeaning or mistreating anyone for any reason including his or her sexual orientation. We stand firmly upon our mission to meet human needs in His name without discrimination.

    The Salvation Army in Australia has also rejected the opinions stated and provided additional information which you can view here.

    We deeply apologize for the hurt that these statements have caused.

    #

  79. The Sally Army puts out a lot of charitable work!
    It’s a shame that their dogma can soil there reputation!

  80. In reply to #94 by hellosnackbar:

    The Sally Army puts out a lot of charitable work!
    It’s a shame that their dogma can soil [their] reputation!

    It’s true! But keep in mind they are a charitable cause, not a charity-providing donor. The dollars that they use are being pulled from the pockets of others, dollars which would go to other charities if the Salvation Army wasn’t there to direct them to their dogma-influenced interests. If the Salvation Army didn’t exist, that would (according to a market economy) create room for competing institutions to fill their niche.

    Around here, we have Goodwill, which also provide a lot of the services that the SA does, but is a secular organization that does not discriminate on account of the bible. Considering the controversy around this particular statement by a specific agent of the Salvation Army, I took the liberty of actually looking things up.

    The Salvation Army is not one of the good guys.

    http://tinyurl.com/dysk6df

  81. Always hated them – turned me away in my very greatest hour of need (no joke) because I didn’t have a proper suitcase for my stuff.

  82. In reply to #81 by GeorgeSpeaks:

    In their words, they oppose any discrimination of any person. bit.ly/11qhdnz.

    I’d have expected nothing less in damage limitation. Have you seen the gymnastics the RCC have been going through recently?

    Andrew Crabie was removed from the position.

    The important question is why he was a ” Salvation Army Media Relations Director” in the first place, that’s if his views on what the SA stand for are at odds with the institutes? I mean, the learning of the doctrine isn’t beyond the level of a person with mediocre intelligence.

    Furthermore, the scripture in question does not specifically target homosexual behavior.

    Ahem….did ya bother to read the scriptures?

    Romans 1:26-27

    26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    Who gives a feck anyway? These types (religidiots) will interpret and re-interpret the words to suit themselves as and when it suits themselves. That’s why there are 38,000+ flavours of the Christian cult. Lying and making stuff up has been all part and parcel from day one of Christianity.

    It says that ALL sin leads to death (not a physical death, but a spiritual death — a separation from God)… ALL sin, including envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice, gossips, slanders and the rest of a lengthy list of sins not related to homosexuality.

    Well how do you know it is not intended as a “physical”death, but a “spiritual” death? It wasn’t thought so for centuries. Kings, Popes and Bishops alike had folk burned for it as anyone with an education knows. In any case, it only works if you cherry pick scripture…you’re not a cherry picker are you? Ya see, knowing scripture, or being able to use Google because one has a rough idea of what is in scripture because one has actually read it, all of it, helps in this kind of discourse.

    In reality, we’re all sinners and we all need a little Grace.

    Behave yourself now…no preaching allowed, and as that is an assertion without evidence, it is preaching.

    The Salvation Army (in the USA) believes that all people equal regardless of sexual orientation, race, gender, ethnicity or other factor, as per their National Commander in December 2012: bit.ly/UzCdSP

    I like the caveat in brackets, it is certainly not universal. I also see you cherry picked the statement to suit, you must be a cherry picker after all. No matter, it’s bullshit by the SA to obfuscate in any case.

    “On its webpage, the group claims that “the services of The Salvation Army are available to all who qualify, without regard to sexual orientation.” While the words are nice, their actions speak volumes. They blatantly ignore the position statement and deny LGBT people services unless they renounce their sexuality, end same-sex relationships, or, in some cases, attend services “open to all who confess Christ as Savior and who accept and abide by The Salvation Army’s doctrine and discipline.” In other words, if you’re gay or lesbian, you don’t qualify.”

    From your link…

    “The Salvation Army is founded on Christian values and biblical standards,…”

    So, Romans 1 then?

    “Many wrongly believe The Salvation Army lobbies the federal government to deny equal opportunities to people with beliefs that differ from ours. For more than a decade, The Salvation Army has not engaged any lobbyists, nor does the organization have any lobbyists working on its behalf nationally to lobby for particular laws or to deny liberties to any American. This is not within The Salvation Army’s moral fabric.”

    Unfortunately, like most religious organisations, the sophisticated theology fails to get passed down to the laity on the street…

    UC Berkeley Salvation Army Controversy: Students Call For Campus Ban On Organization Citing Alleged Homophobic Practices

    …or…

    *”On December 15, 2012, in Canada, Andrea Le Good noticed a Salvation Army bell-ringer carrying a sign reading “if you support gay rights: please do not donate.” *

    …or indeed,not to just some of the laity, to some of its media directors too.

    If you think the SA isn’t lobbying a discriminatory policy then you are at best, naive, perhaps just ignorant, at worse lying.

    “The Salvation Army spearheaded a well-funded effort against the decriminalization of homosexuality in New Zealand, as well as opposition to the repeal of the bizarre Section 2A of England, Wales, and Scotland’s Local Government Act. This sought to forbid local authorities from publishing anything the portrays homosexuality in a positive light, and banned teaching “the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship” in the region. The organisation continues to advocate against the legal recognition of same-sex marriages and other equal rights ordinances.”

    You are aware that the Roman Catholic Church has stated it condemns sexual abuse by it’s clerics while all the time hiding them? Right? Talk is cheap.

    The bottom line is, the Salvation Army are not a charity in a true sense. They are looking for something in return (proselytism) for the work they do, and their employees are salaried, highly salaried in some cases.

    There are more befitting alternatives to the Sally Army in my opinion.

  83. In reply to #47 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee:

    In reply to #15 by Agrajag:

    In reply to #12 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee:LGBTQ?I know what the L, G, B & T stand for – what’s the Q?”Questioning”…Steve

    “Questioning” – Seriously?!!!

    Jesus Homosexual Christ!

    Had to laugh at this. Why not add a C for ‘curious’… GLBTQC… in the interests of being as inclusive as possible!

  84. Important to note that lots of good people work for the Salvation Army, and many of them are not even Christian or religious. They should amend these views and remove the hateful parts of the Handbook.


    Google

  85. Important to note that lots of good people work for the Salvation Army, and many of them are not even Christian or religious. They should amend these views and remove the hateful parts of the Handbook.

    Actually I believe that Salvation Army staffers have to adhere to the bible-based policies and ethics of the Salvation Army, and that being outed is grounds for dismissal.

    Also there are plenty of incidents in which not-so-good people decided to push their religious agenda, whether discriminating against gays, or the 2010 incident in Canada where donated Harry Potter and Twilight toys for a Christmas charity function were destroyed (not given to another charity but actually burned) because the Salvation Army’s policy was to censor the ideas of witchcraft or lycanthropy from children. In contrast, the toy M16 Assault Rifle was cleared for distribution at the function.

  86. You would need to add GOD to that hate group then, Ellis, because He calls homosexuality an ABOMINATION. He doesn’t use that word lightly nor frequently.

  87. If you would bother to take the time to actually read the Biblical reference, it says “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death”. Sin = death. The wages of sin is death. All are sinners and worthy of death, not just homosexuals. It is sin (just like lying and stealing, etc.) which is why Christians are against it. Jesus came in the flesh to sacrifice Himself and save us. Your choice. Believe it or not. God gave us all free wills and did not want robots. (The Bible also says someday, at the name of Jesus, EVERY knee will bow).

  88. *In reply to #102 by —

    You would need to add GOD to that hate group then, Ellis, because He calls homosexuality an ABOMINATION. He doesn’t use that word lightly nor frequently.

    Yes, he reserves it for the really serious stuff: gayness and shellfish.

    Just kidding. Sorry to joke on such a serious matter because I really do agree with you. Its essential that we only marry as God wants us to and he told us that in the Bible so we better pay attention. Here is a good Youtube video from America’s Best Christian, Miss Betty Bowers on what constitutes a proper biblical marriage:

  89. You would need to add GOD to that hate group then, Ellis, because He calls homosexuality an ABOMINATION. He doesn’t use that word lightly nor frequently.

    The sky speaks nothing of abominations, or homosexuality.

  90. In reply to #86 by Uriel-238:

    In reply to #85 by keven.chisum:

    That was old testament law! Jesus died for our sins so now we can be forgiven. Why do people act like we gotta live like that! Unless you don’t believe in Jesus! They took that too far!

    There are New Testament passages that are often interpreted as anti-gay. But th…

    Most Christians are followers of Paul? Huh??? Why, because he wrote most of the New Testament? That’s like saying I love Ikea because I had a good lunch there. Paul was not God in the flesh nor did he die for my sins. Paul was a saint and a FOLLOWER of Jesus. As a Christian, so am I.

  91. Seriously, I would bet my next paycheck that almost all of you anti-Christians have never even given Jesus a chance. He loves you so much he died a horrendous death for you. Your eternity is dependent on what you do with Him, yet you won’t give even Him the time of day or bother to read His book. Why are there millions of Christians? It’s a supernatural thing, one of which I can personally attest. He has intervened so many times in my life. How do you explain the supernatural to an unbeliever? It’s like explaining colors to a blind person. There is nothing like Jesus my friends.

  92. Most Christians are followers of Paul? Huh??? Why, because he wrote most of the New Testament? That’s like saying I love Ikea because I had a good lunch there. Paul was not God in the flesh nor did he die for my sins. Paul was a saint and a FOLLOWER of Jesus. As a Christian, so am I….

    I take, therefore that, you’ve sold off all your possessions and now walk the Earth preaching the word, not concerning yourself with meals, shelter or clothing in faith that God will provide? Since you’re online, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your meager tablet is your prized possession and you’re adding to this dialogue borrowing time off public hotspots, yes?

    Paul said a lot that was speculation and often conflicted with Jesus. It was very recently that 2 Thessalonians 3:10 If you don’t work you don’t eat was quoted as a justification to abolish general welfare. Even the Pope is conspicuously more concerned with burning fags and saving unborn babies than the poverty and famine that plagues those of us who’ve escaped the womb, has has been illustrated by the conflict between the Holy See and the LCWR.

    So no. Few of you are Jesuits. Many of you are Paulians. And all of you are cafeteria Christians, choosing for yourself which of scripture is literal, which is allegory and which is just not all that important. So far there’s about 40,000 denominated variations (not including those that are not). Technically, that’s not a bad thing: Even Jesus was a shit sometimes as with cursing the fig tree. But given that some interpretation is required, it’s inappropriate to use scripture as a foundation for scientific or moral law.

    And incidentally, I for one opened the door to Jesus when I was twenty-five. My willingness (desperation, actually) for acceptance to the Big J Club was as genuine as one could get and I met absolute silence. It didn’t take, and my ministers blamed me for it as they are want to do when one of us doesn’t automatically find religious ecstasy.

    EDIT: Pre-coffee grammar fixed (a bit).

  93. [Jesus] He loves you so much he died a horrendous death for you.

    A lot of us raise the question as to why is a sacrifice necessary? In marketing this is called selling a false product: they push that you have a disease or problem (head dandruff, ring-around-the-collar, engine knocks et. al.) that is then cured or fixed by the product. The Catholic Church uses original sin. Some denominations use everyday sin. But what is sin? Wrongdoing against God, allegedly, but where is that defined other than in scripture written my humans in human letters?

    Your eternity is dependent on what you do with Him, yet you won’t give even Him the time of day or bother to read His book.

    Again, no evidence that it is His book (compare: The Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Koran, The Hellenist narrative, The Wotanic narrative, The Words of Lao Tzu and so on.) When I was in my spiritualist years I came to the conclusion that if the bible was sacred and inspired by God, then all literary works (fiction or otherwise) also were inspired by God, and we still have to scrutinize them critically before applying them to our lives or our society.

    Incidentally it’s always a bad move around here to threaten, even implicitly, with Hellfire. That’s regarded as argumentum ad baculum (“Appealing to the stick”) but rather than saying “believe me or I’ll beat you up” you’re merely saying “believe me or my god will beat you up”. Which is considered really bad form. If there is an afterlife, the accuracy of the bible, or even Milton’s glorious elaboration are infinitely unlikely.

    EDIT: Abominable capitalization and punctuation purged.

  94. It is unfortunate that Paul wrote that passage, and I will never find myself agreeing with him on many things, regardless of the reverence Christians give him. Paul was, of course, referring to the law that the penalty for every sin is the same: death. By that same logic every Christian is also worthy of death, because everyone has sinned and “fall[en] short of the glory of God.” However, it was no longer the place for humans to enforce the penalty; Jesus placed that right squarely in the hands of God. Don’t get me wrong, I am not suggesting that anyone should believe this; it just illustrates their hypocrisy.

    Even Paul’s words verge on the hateful, here; it just doesn’t make sense to spout this kind of rhetoric and then follow up later with a statement like, “God is love.”

  95. In reply to #4 by Roedy:

    If they said the same thing about Jews, these people would be arrested for inciting murder or hate speech. Their organisation would be treated like a neo-Nazi group, and certainly would lose it tax free status at the very minimum.

    Ho hum. Sweet little old ladies virtuously encouraging their sons t…

    I don’t believe they’re all that way. My uncle is a devout Christian, and I know he loves his family despite some differences. It’s not like he’s a Jehovah’s Witness or some other fundy-nutcase (who are taught to cut ties with anyone who doesn’t follow their way, even family). Otherwise, I am in complete agreement with you.

  96. In reply to #9 by Mr DArcy:

    How do they feel about a prawn sandwich, or picking up sticks on the Sabbath, or wearing mixed fibres?

    Did they learn nothing from the Nuremberg trials ? The “only following orders” defence is no defence.

    Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

    Exodus 22.18

    Do they kill witches as well as LGBTs ?…

    If we give them the chance, some of them will.

  97. In reply to #11 by This Is Not A Meme:

    In reply to #4 by Roedy:

    If they said the same thing about Jews, these people would be arrested for inciting murder or hate speech. Their organisation would be treated like a neo-Nazi group, and certainly would lose it tax free status at the very minimum.

    If the Holocaust were treated as a human t…

    Exactly. And it wasn’t just Germany. All the things Italian fascists in WWII did and said were pretty horrific (for example, “We should line up all the cripples in the country and shoot them because they are an unnecessary and wasteful drain on our wonderful corporate economy.” Some of today’s Christians and many, many political conservatives sound just like that today.

  98. In reply to #18 by HenMie:

    A Polish priest, with a smile, in broad daylight, in the main Krakow square calls for homosexuals to be ‘burned at the stake, like in he Middle Ages’: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IghbhD9VLM:

    Both the Salvation Army and the Catholic Church take their dogmas from the same holy scripture – the…

    It isn’t the document. It’s the people who misuse it. The document is merely a tool, one than can sometimes be useful and sometimes not. Just because I bash you in the head with a wrench doesn’t make the wrench evil. It makes me evil.

  99. In reply to #21 by Roedy:

    All the churches refuse to repudiate this irrational teaching….

    They do not. Nice bit of generalizing there, but I’ve been to enough churches to know this isn’t true. Many of them do, yes; some do not.

  100. In reply to #22 by Net:

    homosexual>>>gay>>> gay & lesbian>>>> GLBT>>>>LGBT>>>>LGBTQ??? Come on, give me a break! What politically correct nonsense is this? And what will be next? Don’t get me wrong. As a homosexual, I am all for equality but this creeping political correctness, for which nobody has ever consulted or a…

    It’s your prerogative to use or not use a label. I am who I am; I agree. A label doesn’t really define me, or even my sexual preference. I don’t think I need those words to tell me who I can or cannot, will or not be attracted to. However, I have known plenty of people with that kind of lifestyle who accepted those labels, at least at one time. Now I hear many using the term “pan-sexual.” Sure, just calling it “human sexuality” would simplify things; but some do use that term as one way to identify themselves. It is not necessarily a label that someone outside of the sub-culture used.

  101. In reply to #24 by WaffleWolfer:

    Old news, though it’s worth repeating because this garbage certainly exists in both the OT and NT. The liberal and moderate Christians are just experts at pretending it’s not there or that’s it’s simply a metaphor (for what, I have no clue).

    Incidentally, I find it intriguing that the Criminal Code…

    As someone with a spiritual belief but not aligned with organized religion of any kind, I know I wish they’d come around to a different perspective. It’s no use denying that Paul wrote this, and it certainly wasn’t a metaphor. I am sure he meant what he said, if not in the way many Christians take it. In my opinion, Paul twisted the teachings of Christ into something imperialistic and oppressive and, unfortunately, (here I will say it, because it’s true) all Christians place a lot of faith in him.

    Whether or not Jesus is God or actually performed miracles is irrelevant to my reasons for respecting the historical figure and what he taught. If there was a historical Jesus, and I believe their was, he was a revolutionary. He instigated protests against the established rulers, including the priests, that were quite effective in some ways. The priests said the poor people couldn’t bath in the Temple pools. Jesus told them to do it anyway. The priests said he couldn’t heal lepers. Whether or not he healed them is not the point; he still walked among them, against their wishes. The priests said he couldn’t mingle with sinners; but he did it anyway. And, of course, there is the famous story of Jesus tearing down the stalls of the money-lenders and merchants in the Temple. He worked from within the bounds of the religion, but he worked against the leaders of that same religion, because he saw what they were doing. Many of today’s Christians are, instead living the life Jesus recommended, doing many of the same things the priests were doing in his time.

  102. In reply to #29 by Roedy:

    In reply to #11 by This Is Not A Meme:

    In reply to #4 by Roedy:

    The way I see it, today Jews have the holocaust card, Israel can do any terrible thing and it is excused because they had such terrible stuff happen to them. I would expect them to be much more compassionate than average, but that is…

    Ugh…I wish you would please stop lumping all Christians together. I know first hand they are not all that way.

    However, the rest of your statement illustrates a hypothesis of mine: that our society breeds and encourages rampant “bullyism.” We all learn very quickly that the only way to advance in a society that values profit above all (and even tries to back it up with Christian belief, which is another contradiction), we have to step on our competitors, or get stepped on. Israeli government policy is a prime example of this, I think.

    I don’t know how testable this hypothesis is; that’s not where my expertise lies. But is my personal experience, and it does seem to explain a lot of what I see going on in the world today.

  103. In reply to #33 by Thorspower:

    To be fair this did not just happen recently. This was said a year ago. The Salvation Army went into immediate damage control and issued the following statement, “Statement in Response to Australian Radio Interview

    Alexandria, Virginia (June 25, 2012) – The Salvation Army in the United States ful…

    Good. I hope so. The unfortunate thing is there are still many people out there who hold these views, and many of them hold positions of power.

  104. In reply to #36 by chris.peace.52:

    did craibe not realize that in the bible it romans 1:18-32 it does not mention homosexuality once but being a prostitute or whore is what its referring to and also did they neglect to go onto romans 2:1-16 or did they skip the part about it saying you shouldn’t judge others for that’s gods right not…

    Dude:

    (Romans 1:27, KJV) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    I don’t agree with Paul here, but it is what he said.

  105. In reply to #37 by chris.peace.52:

    oh and it does not mention putting anyone to death in romans 1:18-32 read your bible more closely

    This is true. It says they are “worthy” of death, and I know he means it only in the sense that all sins are worthy of death. If they want to go around “putting to death” everyone who is, according to the Bible, “worthy of death,” they’d have to kill themselves, too. Some of the most irrational, contradictory BS I ever heard.

  106. In reply to #41 by tiffany.coleman.9022:

    So maybe before hating on an organization and then back-lashing by commenting furiously without thinking, researching the details would be smart.

    Here is the real, unedited image:
    http://www.spcelina.org/storage/bell-ringer1.jpg?_SQUARESPACECACHEVERSION=1352238511627

    Also for those who don’t know,…

    I won’t hate on them. Maybe I was rash to make a judgment. It was easy to do, unfortunately, because I have heard some Christians talk this way. So, you’re saying it was doctored? Then why did the SA feel the need to apologize?

  107. In reply to #45 by stevenwood21:

    I would be very careful finding a difference between ‘Jews’ and ‘Israelis’ and assuming that it is the latter that is guilty of the country’s excesses. When you spend time in Israel you quickly learn that the vast majority of these ‘Israelis’ who live on the densely populated coastal plain of Tel-Av…

    And that is a very important distinction to make. Thank you for bringing it up.

  108. In reply to #49 by old-toy-boy:

    For those who want to know:

    Salvation Army doctrines

    We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice.

    We believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect, th…

    Yep. That’s what it looks like.

  109. In reply to #54 by The Truth, the light:

    This is the statement that The Salvation Army made to ‘clarify” the comments:

    “This is a misunderstanding of the text referred to. The Scripture in question, viewed in its broader context, is not referring to physical death, nor is it specifically targeted at homosexual behavior. The author is argu…

    What they said is the context of the passage, that they “are “worthy” of death because everyone is worthy of death. Whoever said those things did take it out of context. They may actually believe it. I’ve heard all kinds. The SA might actually stand by the context, even if some within their organization do not. The problem is, I still don’t like what Paul said, because it can be so easily misconstrued and used for hateful purposes.

  110. In reply to #60 by Alan4discussion:

    In reply to #54 by The Truth, the light:

    This is the statement that The Salvation Army made to ‘clarify” the comments:

    “This is a misunderstanding of the text referred to. The Scripture in question, viewed in its broader context, is not referring to physical death, nor is it specifically targeted…

    Um, the words “spiritual salvation death” are not grouped that way within the statement. You did that. “Salvation” is the opposite of “spiritual death.” And the statement does accurately explain the context of Paul’s message. I’ve stated several times here that I still do not agree with it. That doesn’t change the fact that it is what he wrote.

  111. In reply to #61 by JeffVader67:

    If you or I ever end up at the bottom of the heap homeless and alone, its likely to be the Salvation Army that helps you to start rebuilding your life and picks you up. If the best the RDF can do is this pathetic piece of gutter journalism, then it’s along way from being a voice of reason!

    Maybe. They didn’t treat my sister very well when she had to stay there. That could just be the individuals who run that particular branch (or whatever you call it), but it is at least one example of how they might not help sometimes.

  112. In reply to #64 by Sue Blue:

    So, their creed apparently is: “We’ll help you out if you’re poor, homeless, hungry, disabled, orphaned, black, white, or brown, old or young…but if you’re gay you’re fucked!” How very Christ-ly of them. I’m sure that’s what Jesus – that long-haired, robe-clad, sandle-wearing dude who hung around day and night with twelve young guys – would say….

    I agree.

    Take any one of the other groups in the list and exclude them and SA would be called a hate group as bad as the Westboro Baptists; but apparently it’s okay to hate the gay. And the atheists….

    And the pagans. For some sects that shall remain nameless for the moment, Jews and any people of color, too.

  113. In reply to #74 by OHooligan:

    Too good to be true, eh? Mods, please take a bit more care before reproducing this kind of propaganda piece. At the very least a disclaimer “Pictures have been photoshopped”, or similar.

    And of course all the gleeful comments: Not giving the SA any more money, the bigoted b**tards. As if there…

    Good point. I know I’ve still been responding to things because this erroneous topic has unearthed some ridiculous sentiments on both sides of the debate. I think someone needs to say something.

  114. In reply to #78 by Baarnold:

    Jesus preached love,not hate. It’s really sad to see people acting like this,especially considering the highest commandment given was to love one another. Instead of actually spreading love (including to the LGBT community), some people think it means to only spread love to the less fortunate and to…

    Another problem is that they will even deny the less fortunate if they don’t conform (convert).

  115. In reply to #82 by Uriel-238:

    In reply to #81 by GeorgeSpeaks:

    It should be noted that the individual who posted this article is actually the author and editor of the source article at tgvnews.com…. Andrew Crabie was removed from the position.

    Whether or not a whistle blower was disgruntled is inconsequential: you can look…

    Not surprised, in spite of trying to be respectful in my comments. The discrimination does abound. But certainly not all Christians believe in “putting them to death.”

    I’ve had enough experience with churches to know far some will go. Far enough that they even target other Christians for not believing the same way. It’s too much. But that was mainly fundamentalists who behaved that way. I’m not saying the more liberal or moderate Christians don’t discriminate; but there are plenty who accept their loved ones and friends for who they are anyway.

  116. In reply to #83 by Mitlz69:

    I was actually supprised by the title of this article but when they mentioned ‘religious beliefs’ then not so supprised.

    So by their methods two loving same sex parents should be killed and their child orphaned and traumatised from the loss just because they read it in a 2000 year old book that is…

    Although, as it has been said many times now, it should be clear that the people who made those statements were misquoting and disregarding the context of the passage, because it does not say that. What it does say, as I have repeated often now, is inflammatory enough, but it doesn’t say that.

  117. In reply to #86 by Uriel-238:

    In reply to #85 by keven.chisum:

    That was old testament law! Jesus died for our sins so now we can be forgiven. Why do people act like we gotta live like that! Unless you don’t believe in Jesus! They took that too far!

    There are New Testament passages that are often interpreted as anti-gay. But th…

    Exactly. There is so much of what Paul said that I think contradicts what Jesus taught. But many Christians are blind to that.

  118. In reply to #88 by PERSON:

    In reply to #12 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee:

    LGBTQ?

    I know what the L, G, B & T stand for – what’s the Q?

    Qould we please stop adding letters to this acronym?

    Despite some of what I said in a previous post, it is a bit much, isn’t it? It’s just human sexuality, plain and simple. But I know we won’t get too many Christians accepting that.

  119. In reply to #104 by Red Dog:

    *In reply to #102 by —

    You would need to add GOD to that hate group then, Ellis, because He calls homosexuality an ABOMINATION. He doesn’t use that word lightly nor frequently.

    Yes, he reserves it for the really serious stuff: gayness and shellfish.

    Just kidding. Sorry to joke on such a serious…

    People who are not Christian will not want a “Biblical” marriage, anyway. Unfortunately, I think anyone turned away by their religion based on sexual preference probably shouldn’t want to get married there, either. If two people love each other, wish to remain monogamous, and want to make it official, they should be allowed to that. It doesn’t have to be part of my or anyone else’s religion.

    And I ask you to point out where Jesus says it’s an abomination. In fact, I’m pretty certain Paul didn’t sat that, either. He said a lot of discriminatory things, but he did not say “abomination.” In fact, I maintain that some of Paul’s teachings contradicted the words of Jesus. If I am wrong, please show me where either of them say it in the Bible. I studied it quite a bit in my youth, even using a Greek interlinear NT, among other things, for cross reference. I don’t recall anything like that, although I have heard many modern Christians say it.

  120. Imagine the uproar if this article was actually entitled…

    Gays say “Salvation Army Needs to Be Put to Death”

    Religions get away with too much… it’s about time these racist, misogynistic, homophobic loonies were put in their place…

  121. In reply to #139 by Dr Bob:

    Religions get away with too much… it’s about time these racist, misogynistic, homophobic loonies were put in their place…

    Namely: Subject to rational scrutiny and criticism, along with every other culture and ideology on the planet.

  122. In reply to #140 by Uriel-238:

    In reply to #139 by Dr Bob:

    Religions get away with too much… it’s about time these racist, misogynistic, homophobic loonies were put in their place…

    Namely: Subject to rational scrutiny and criticism, along with every other culture and ideology on the planet.

    Absolutely – any idea that appears to have no foundation in reality should be open to ridicule on every level, until its supporters provide evidence of its veracity…

  123. In reply to #141 by Dr Bob:

    In reply to #140 by Uriel-238:

    In reply to #139 by Dr Bob:

    Religions get away with too much… it’s about time these racist, misogynistic, homophobic loonies were put in their place…

    Namely: Subject to rational scrutiny and criticism, along with every other culture and ideology on the planet….

    I do not entirely agree. Too much of that ridicule can go too far, and that can be oppressive too. Put them on the hot seat, tell them how it really is. When they get hostile, then they’re open game. Until then, I will keep it civil.

    You might actually mean this; I don’t know.

  124. In reply to #142 by sffmadman66:

    In reply to #141 by Dr Bob:

    In reply to #140 by Uriel-238:

    In reply to #139 by Dr Bob:

    Religions get away with too much… it’s about time these racist, misogynistic, homophobic loonies were put in their place…

    Namely: Subject to rational scrutiny and criticism, along with every other culture…

    I totally agree; we should always try to keep it civil, whatever the provocation.

    The sheer weight of our arguments should be enough to convince anyone (after all, we have reality and common sense on our side) – and if this does not suffice, we should not resort to intimidation or humiliation.

    We should just accept that some people cannot (at this stage of their lives at least) be helped and move on.

    However frustrating these people are, we must not lower ourselves to their levels of behaviour.

    In other words, their ideas should always be open to ridicule, not so much the person themselves…

  125. In reply to #142 by sffmadman66:

    I do not entirely agree. Too much of that ridicule can go too far, and that can be oppressive too. Put them on the hot seat, tell them how it really is. When they get hostile, then they’re open game. Until then, I will keep it civil.
    You might actually mean this; I don’t know.

    I, for one don’t necessarily endorse ridicule, because granted these people actually put time and effort to try to manage the contrast between what they have been taught is true and what they see, but when people decide that policy should be based on ideology in opposition to those mores that advance civilization (tolerance of pluralism, social equality, a robust social contract, et. al.) they need to be corrected, and if that doesn’t help, censured or ridiculed, yes.

    Here in the US, the Lemon Test is supposed to prevail, which is the precedent that laws have to have purpose other than moral decency in accordance to a culture, such as biblical scripture. If it doesn’t serve an outward civil function to, say, prohibit pornography, then laws that prohibit pornography are overturned.

    This is, hence, why the opposition to Gay marriage has to come up with supposed ways that society will suffer in providing for it. It’s just not enough to say, “but the bible says it’s wrong” in what is still supposed to be a secular nation.

  126. In reply to #9 by Mr DArcy:

    How do they feel about a prawn sandwich, or picking up sticks on the Sabbath, or wearing mixed fibres?

    Did they learn nothing from the Nuremberg trials ? The “only following orders” defence is no defence.

    Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

    Exodus 22.18

    Do they kill witches as well as LGBTs ?…

    I think the argument from the Christian side is that those old Mosaic laws are part of the old covenant that God had with the Jews in the Old Testament, which Jesus “fulfilled” (whatever that means, because he also says he has not come to abolish the laws — use your powers of special interpretation). But they can still hate on gays because of those verses in the New Testament (e.g. Romans), and they keep the Ten Commandments because Jesus says to keep them.

  127. recently I have questioned my membership here. why am i here? what is my position?…etc perhaps I am more of skeptic and an agnostic than an “out and out” Atheist, however, I am an “Nontheist”, and I support all of your rights to free speech…

    what has tempered my commitment to this site, are the things we have in common. We all refute, and refuse to agree with this kind of “insane” hate, fascism, and all the other insane stuff out there—we love science, real science, and we know that the reason why we’re all here is because of science; maybe that is it…

    I won’t take my understanding of science for granted, science and antibiotics have saved my life! thanks to all of you brave atheists!

    spraguelle

    that’s what makes us all “atheists” – we require a single title, damn it if it doesn’t satisfy everyone, we need to work together, otherwise the “trogladytes” of the world will march in a second eon of The Medieval world…

    fear is the one thing that the religious have in common, fear is the engine of ignorance, the father of hate…

    atheists are fearless, we must be,

  128. Using a photoshopped image with fake text makes me question everything in this article. I will now need to confirm everything written here with other more reliable sources. When you do this type of thing you lose trust, your most important asset as an organization. For those that care, the original image shows the text on the sign as “DOING THE MOST GOOD” (not my emphasis, the sign actually has it in all caps).

  129. In reply to #147 by derekread:

    Using a photoshopped image with fake text makes me question everything in this article. I will now need to confirm everything written here with other more reliable sources. When you do this type of thing you lose trust, your most important asset as an organization. For those that care, the original…

    I thought this article was biased as well. I am absolutely for gay rights but I agree with you about this particular article. But I don’t agree that somehow you have to put everything on this site in question. Or perhaps I just look at it a different way, I don’t put blind trust in any web site or any source for that matter. And the RD site doesn’t create all the content, most of it is just articles they find elsewhere. I don’t expect them to do an exhaustive check on each article and I don’t expect to agree with the point of view in every article. In fact I like that RD.net will publish articles by people who are violently opposed to some of the values of the site. To me the function of the site is to find interesting content and provide a place where people can discuss it.

  130. In reply to #147 by derekread:

    Using a photoshopped image with fake text makes me question everything in this article. I will now need to confirm everything written here with other more reliable sources.

    My response to you is why wouldn’t you? The New Atheism message (as I understand it) is to subject everything to an equal, high-degree of critical scrutiny. Generally, people trust revealed truth because it comes from a given authority, but people are wrong. People lie. People have biases.

    Atheism is in no way morally superior to theism; we only posit that it is no less either, and that everyone should be subject to scrutiny. Everyone should be brought up to question, and everyone should adhere to a high degree of factual accuracy, or face the consequences of being corrected and potentially ridiculed.

    Linus’ law is Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow which is applicable to journalistic truth as well. To borrow yet another adage, The price of accurate news, like freedom, is eternal vigilance.

    EDIT: Typo.

  131. I have never seen this in England, I was a volunteer for years. Shocking and disgusting.

  132. Only good thing!
    If all the people the Bible suggests, were “Stoned” to death,
    the World would not have to worry about over-population.

  133. At least they have the decency to accept the whole bible instead of choosing which of gods words are godly enough for them. I can understand this kind of bigotry. I’ve never understood how people who believe in an infallible being can then doubt that beings words.

  134. In reply to #154 by TheHardonCollider:

    At least they have the decency to accept the whole bible instead of choosing which of gods words are godly enough for them…

    I’m pretty sure they don’t stone their eight-year-old kids for being too sassy, select slaves from war refugees, or (necessarily) turn down a tasty prawn gumbo based on their belief system. I doubt any Christians at all worry about mixed weaves.

    Every denomination of Christianity, and every Christian picks and chooses which passages to follow, which of the conflicting passages it chooses to acknowledge as presiding over the others and which passages are “allegory” or mean something that doesn’t affect him or her personally.

  135. In reply to #4 by Roedy:

    If they said the same thing about Jews, these people would be arrested for inciting murder or hate speech. Their organisation would be treated like a neo-Nazi group, and certainly would lose it tax free status at the very minimum.

    Ho hum. Sweet little old ladies virtuously encouraging their sons t…

    Put your chains away, Cletus. Here is a quote from the “handbook” listed in the article:
    “We will still die physically, yet because of Jesus Christ we need not be dead to God. When Paul writes about death being the ‘wages of sin’, he is not referring to physical death but to the spiritual death that threatens those who reject God (Romans 6:23).”

  136. For a site that claims to support reason, they sure did a number twisting this article around. Here is what the Salvation Army handbook says about death. It has nothing to do with killing gays:

    “We will still die physically, yet because of Jesus Christ we need not be dead to God. When Paul writes about death being the ‘wages of sin’, he is no treferring to physical death but to the spiritual death that threatens those who reject God (Romans 6:23).”

    Don’t let that stop your hatred of the Salvation Army, however. You’ll just need to go looking for another excuse to justify it. What type of people go out looking for reasons to hate someone else, and then accuses THEM of hatred?

  137. In reply to #14 by Floyd:

    I don’t like the practice of photoshopping words onto signs to emphasise a point. It’s not reflective of this site’s emphasis on reality.

    You are correct, but it’s not just the sign that is fake. If you read the handbook, it specifically states that by “death”, they mean a “spiritual death” or “separation from God”. Also, the handbook says nothing about Homosexuality. It merely refers to Romans 1:18-32, which mentions all kinds of sins including greed, depravity, slander, envy, gossip and so on.

    So it’s not just the sign that’s fake. This is a hit job on the Salvation Army from a site that is supposed to promote reason. It not only took the handbook out of context, but it ignored the explanation in the handbook itself. Look at some of my other posts from quotes from the handbook or look it up yourself. The whole thing is posted on the web in PDF format.

  138. In reply to #158 by ArcherB:

    So it’s not just the sign that’s fake. This is a hit job on the Salvation Army from a site that is supposed to promote reason. It not only took the handbook out of context, but it ignored the explanation in the handbook itself.

    The picture and the text didn’t come from this site, they were in the original article. But I agree with you that this article was a hit piece and not up to the standards of any site that is supposed to be about critical thinking and reason.

  139. ArcherB really likes to refer to…

    If you read the handbook, it specifically states that by “death”, they mean a “spiritual death” or “separation from God”. Also, the handbook says nothing about Homosexuality. It merely refers to Romans 1:18-32, which mentions all kinds of sins including greed, depravity, slander, envy, gossip and so on.

    “We will still die physically, yet because of Jesus Christ we need not be dead to God. When Paul writes about death being the ‘wages of sin’, he is no treferring to physical death but to the spiritual death that threatens those who reject God (Romans 6:23).”

    “We will still die physically, yet because of Jesus Christ we need not be dead to God. When Paul writes about death being the ‘wages of sin’, he is no treferring to physical death but to the spiritual death that threatens those who reject God (Romans 6:23).”

    You realize, of course, that when you lump your bigoty in which a bunch of antisocial behavior, it not only doesn’t dilute it, but implies you find them comparable.

    And while the SA’s current policy might be to tolerate gays, it wasn’t until recently, and plenty of people have been turned away, or forced to separate before they received care, or even forced to convert. So no, this isn’t just some insignificant bit of dogma reserved for OT IIIs or higher. This is stuff used by base volunteers to justify discharging their strength on the weak and the weary.

    There are no apologies for behavior within the SA.

  140. Got to agree with ArcherB at point 158. If this site is so desperate that it needs to drag up a 12month old article and a photoshopped picture then its far from a site dedicated to “reason”. A Tabloid headline thats blatently wrong.

  141. I can’t be the only one to see that this one of the most common and obvious fallacies: a straw man attack.

    Nowhere in the passage cited (Romans 1) does it indicate that homosexuals should be “put to death,” as the page title suggests. The Salvation Army officer likewise made no such claim. This is merely atheists and liberals intentionally misquoting and misrepresenting the Christian position for their own agenda. That’s lesson number 1: critically analyse what you read and don’t take anything for granted (particularly atheist/humanist/liberal material). Also look at the bias of the author himself.

    Lesson number 2 is Christianity 101. The Bible informs us that everyone has sinned and falls far short of God’s standard. In fact, St. Paul tells us that the wages of sin are death (Romans 6:23). Now wages are something that are paid for work rendered, that is, we earn our wages. In other words, we all (not just homosexuals) earn/deserve death because of our sin. The death referred to here is contrasted with eternal life, indicating that that it is eternal separation from God in hell. Clarke puts this issue an interesting way: “Every sinner earns [death] by long, sore, and painful service. O! what pains do men take to get to hell! Early and late they toil at sin; and would not Divine justice be in their debt, if it did not pay them their due wages?”

    The good news is that God didn’t leave it there. He would be perfectly just in destroying this world, but in His love and mercy He has provided a way for humanity to be saved through Jesus.

    So yes, homosexuals deserve death because of their sins. You deserve death because of your sins and I deserve death because of my sins. But Jesus took that punishment in our place: He became guilty so that we could be declared innocent. It’s up to us if we want to accept it. It isn’t the place of Christians to judge (Romans 2:1-3), but how can we remain silent when we know that eternal punishment awaits those who don’t accept Jesus? Isn’t that much worse than being silent/doing nothing when we see someone is crossing a road into the path of a bus?

    In summary,

    • Romans does NOT say homosexuals should be “put to death” (read it for yourself).

    • It isn’t our place to judge – it is God’s.

    • God says homosexuality is a sin.

    • All humans have sinned.

    • We all earn eternal death as the punishment for said sins. God has warned us that the soul that sins will die (Ezekiel 18:4).

    • Jesus came to take that punishment on our behalf and forgive us our sins if we accept what He did for us.

  142. In reply to #163 by thereasoner:

    I take, then, thereasoner, you think us fools quick to judge? That and you didn’t bother to read the thread before you commented.

    We know what Romans says. We’ve gone over what the soldier said, what it was that he meant. This is not an isolated incident for the Salvation Army, and by their response, they’ve shown they’re interested in treating this affair as a public relations incident, not an opportunity to modernize their values. As it is, the charity that the SA provides is indeed provisional, and gays are turned away (or accepted under the conditions that couples separate and they are forced to renounce their sexuality.

    And whether or not you, personally, would discriminate against gays is irrelevant, thereasoner. Because scripture is most commonly interpreted to be anti-gay (by most denominations by far in contrast to those that do not), the churches are eager to pass laws, and pressure their parishioners to vote in order to keep gays a marginalized group (doing so here in the US is against tax law, but it hasn’t been enforced). Moreover powerful Christian lobby groups have played a great part in the criminalization of gays in Russia and Uganda. In the latter case, being gay (not engaging in indiscreet gay sex, just showing inclinations) makes it a capital offense, and gays are put to death. If you want to change how Christendom is regarded from the outside, you have a long hard road changing it from within.

    So really it doesn’t matter if the Salvation Army is actively acting against gays or not. Their position enough is worthy of them being boycotted. Given, however, that they have actively discriminated against gays, that lends evidence to the notion that we cannot leave the welfare of our impoverished to charities, lest their agendas detract from their primary mission. And the Salvation Army cannot be trusted to treat all who come to their door with equal regard.

    Of course, if you read the thread, thereasoner, you’d know that these were the grievances raised. Perhaps you had preconceived notions of what you’d encounter here.

    No sexual orientation should be regarded as wrong by society. Nor should chastity or promiscuity, for that matter. And that such judgements are unquestioned norms is a profound disservice that fifteen hundred years of Christian culture has inflicted upon civilization.

  143. This is one member of the Salvation Army’s point of view, I have been part of the Salvation Army my entire life and I have never heard anything this absurd. It was totally inappropriate for him to say these things, We are taught to love everybody no matter what their lifesytle is. So please don’t down an entire chuch because of one person’s comment. There are preachers in all churches who need to remember that God loves all his children not just a select few!!

  144. Wow, it’s funny…they can cite the Bible in the relevance to what it says about the “gays” but I guess they forgot the passages that taught “Judge not lest ye be judged”, and to offer forgiveness and compassion, and to turn the other cheek. I am thoroughly disgusted. Unfortunately their hypocritical behavior has been the determining factor of my decision to no longer donate to them. If asked why I will proudly state that my moneys will now go to help and support those whom you have ostracized. Shame on you Salvation Army…where is the salvation for sinners…damned self righteous buffoons!!

  145. But i’m guessing they will be more then happy to take the gays clothes and sell them,

  146. You know what i find funny is there quoting from a book that says Take from the rich give to the poor.. BUT They take donations free from the rich & SELL them to the poor… That book also says We shouldn’t wear mixed fabrics & they sell them without checking for anything other than a name brand that they can mark higher for that reason… Sadly I used to have Faith in this organization But i have always had my suspicions about them Lying & baiting there own donation pots with large amounts of cash EVERY YEAR to get worldwide news coverage for that reason… Sadly all the bleeding hearts people will go out & give out the aaww that was so sweet they donated $10,000 least i can give is $20 or a $100….. Sadly i will never give again!

  147. As a Native American Two Spirit whose cuture was destroyed by those ” PIOUS CHRISTIANS”.. I cannot fathom this position from the Salvation Army… Who in the modern society can take these positions? Why are they allowed to have a paid job, promoting hate and division among those that have fallen on difficult times…
    Shame upon the Salvation Army….
    I will never give another penny to their organization and will work to expose their hate…….

  148. Okay people the Bible is a book of big ideas! So think big! When it says homosexual deserve death the book means as no offspring. Dying without offspring having no legacy is death in the trues most absolute form. Last time I checked two females or two males can’t produce offspring without a opposite sex third party. Homosexuality is the same as committing suicide expect for you whole species! Is suicide right?

  149. There is nothing wrong with taking a stand for what they believe in. Just because we may disagree with them does not make them wrong or bad people.

  150. In reply to #172 by radworkr:

    Before you SA bashers comment…why not do a little research. http://americablog.com/2012/11/salvation-army-anti-gay.html

    Awesome link! I love Stephanie Miller! She can be outrageously funny and intelligent at the same time. And I agree with the article you linked to about this issue. That picture above was photo-shopped and several people have commented that this article wasn’t fair to the SA. I’m an atheist but I respect anyone who tries to help people in need.

  151. This is not our view at all. The Salvation Army stands against homophobia, which victimises people and can reinforce feelings of alienation, loneliness and despair. We want to be an inclusive church community where members of the LGBT community find welcome and the encouragement to develop their relationship with God. We oppose any discrimination, marginalisation or persecution of any person. We find no scriptural support for demeaning or mistreating anyone for any reason. Anyone who comes to The Salvation Army will receive assistance based solely on their need and our capacity to provide help.

    We employ a large number of people of other faiths or no faith, cultures and varying sexual orientation, and we respect and value the rich diversity of our staff and the communities in which we serve. We have an Equality and Diversity Policy which covers all protected characteristics under equality law and which applies to every aspect of our service provision and staff employment.

    Articles based on comments made on an Australian radio station back in June 2012 are being reported as being representative of the views of the organisation as a whole. This is incorrect, as we would like to explain. A diverse range of views on homosexuality may exist within The Salvation Army – as among the wider Christian (and non-Christian) community. But no matter where individual Salvationists stand on this matter, The Salvation Army does not permit discrimination on the basis of sexual identity in the delivery of its services or in its employment practices.

    There are online Photoshopped images that portray Salvation Army fundraisers alongside anti-gay slogans. The alteration of these images maliciously misrepresents people who have freely given their time and energy to raise funds in order that The Salvation Army can provide vital assistance to millions of needy people every year – including many gay, lesbian and transgender people.

    We would like to make it clear that The Salvation Army does not align itself with comments made in the interview by Major Andrew Craib, who is no longer in that spokesperson role. The Salvation Army in in United Kingdom and Ireland, Australia, Canada, and the United States promptly apologised for the hurt his comments caused.

    We hope this clears up any concerns you may have about the mission and values of The Salvation Army. For more information, please refer to our Non-Discrimination page on our website where we also make our position clear http://www.salvationarmy.org.uk/uki/Non-Discrimination

  152. In reply to #175 by salvationarmyuk:

    This is not our view at all. The Salvation Army stands against homophobia

    I am pleased to here it. The position of the Salvation Army in Australia is that homosexuals should be celibate, cannot get married and that practising homosexuals cannot be full members of the Salvation Army

    Homosexual practice, however, is, in the light of Scripture, clearly unacceptable4. Such activity is chosen behaviour and is thus a matter of the will. It is therefore able to be directed or restrained in the same way heterosexual urges are controlled. Homosexual practice would render any person ineligible for full membership (soldiership) in the Army. However, practising homosexuals are welcome to worship with, and join in the fellowship of The Salvation Army.

    So does the UK Salvation Army disagree with any of this ?

    Michael

  153. Hi Michael. We oppose any discrimination, marginalisation or persecution of any person. We find no scriptural support for demeaning or mistreating anyone for any reason. Anyone who comes to The Salvation Army will receive assistance based solely on their need and our capacity to provide help. We do not discriminate on the basis of orientation. But we do ask that Officers and members have sexual relations within marriage and that we see marriage in the biblical sense as between a man and a woman.

  154. In reply to #177 by salvationarmyuk:

    Hi Michael. We oppose any discrimination, marginalisation or persecution of any person. We find no scriptural support for demeaning or mistreating anyone for any reason. Anyone who comes to The Salvation Army will receive assistance based solely on their need and our capacity to provide help. We do not discriminate on the basis of orientation. But we do ask that Officers and members have sexual relations within marriage and that we see marriage in the biblical sense as between a man and a woman.

    Thanks for the reply. So it is still discrimination. Really. You could, instead, interpret the Bible as being written with the guidance of the Holy Spirit for a particular time and place. That would leave it open for you to decide that what God wishes is for human beings to restrict sexual relations to long term loving relationships which, in the time that the Bible was written, was interpreted as man and wife but which we now understand to include long term homosexual relationships.

    But I suspect I am not going to get far as an atheist preaching theology to the Salvation Army! Perhaps I should just congratulate you on the good work you do.

    Michael

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