Oklahoma Republicans Advance Bill To Put Ten Commandments Displays in Public Schools

By Hemant Mehta

What is it with Oklahoma legislators and their obsession with the Ten Commandments?

After a years-long battle — which they lost — over a monument outside the Capitol building, State Rep. John Bennett has now proposed House Bill 2177, which would allow the posting of the Commandments in all public buildings including courthouses and public schools.

While the bill talks broadly about posting “historically significant documents,” there’s no doubt that’s just a cover for the Decalogue.

In presenting the bill… Bennett made it clear his primary interest is the Ten Commandments, saying they have “impacted American law and culture with a force similar only to that of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.”

I’m not sure how rules about worshiping only one specific God, false idols, keeping the Sabbath Day holy, and taking the Lord’s name in vain have anything to do with our law… but maybe that’s because I’ve actually read the First Amendment. It’s also legal (even if it’s not ethical) to commit adultery, lie, and covet. So it’s just not true that we based our laws on the Ten Commandments.

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102 COMMENTS

  1. I have found this:

    “The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on
    the Christian religion.” —John Adams

    I think I have read many times (at Dawkins and Sagan books, I think they were talking about Jefferson and Paine, etc.) that “founding fathers” of America were not religious and didn’t founded America upon religion.
    I shiver every time when I hear “christian nation”, “chatolic state”, “islam state” … . All same rhetoric of nationalism, dehumanization, primitivism, establishing of malignant power over citizens and people in general, horror,…

  2. @OP – What is it with Oklahoma legislators and their obsession with the Ten Commandments?

    We should remember the first and “great” commandment (translated into honest reality)!

    My god-delusion commands me to promote its status, standing, and memetic spreading, over that of all living things, and over all rational thinking – regardless of the interests of humans, communities, laws, or ethics!
    Thus speaketh the master and commander of my indoctrinated brain!

  3. There are of course other translatable commandments operating in the US!

    .2. Thou shalt not laugh at ridiculous god myths, or think critically about preached dogmas.

    .3. Remember to turn up one day a week to purge reasoned thought from your mind, and to listen to patronising preachers disparaging honest information and non-believers in their absence.

    .4. Honour the political establishment, so your working days may be long to keep the wealthy elite in luxury.

    .5. Thou shalt not kill – unless some deluded government wants to test out new weapons on some military adventure in a foreign land.

    .6. Thou shalt be sexually repressed, and have your sex-life dominated and dictated by theocrats.

    .7. Thou shalt not steal – unless thou art an elite rogue trader, mega-church televangelist, corporate executive, quack medicine salesman, paid lobbyist, sponsored politician, or banker!

    .8. Thou shalt not bear false witness – unless thou needest “alternative facts” to promote your god-delusion, YEC preaching, personal enrichment, political ideology, or denial of legal or constitutional requirements!

    .9./10. As commanded by TV advertising, – Thou shalt covert thy neighbour’s mansion, wife, car, servants, and life style, and work long hours in poor conditions for the elite who have these, – (led by the delusional propagandist media con, that such honest work could achieve this sort of wealth and conspicuous consumption of resources).

    And the one missing from Catholic Commandment lists and the OP:


    .11. Thou shalt promote god-delusions and commercial products, with graven images on ecclesiastical buildings, stone tablets, advertising hoardings and television.

    Perhaps a print out of these “commandments” could be attached to any erections politicians put on public land!

  4. Perhaps a print out of these “commandments” could be attached to any
    erections politicians put on public land!

    I would love to see these translations directly beneath each commandment. A nice little dose of honesty!

  5. Modesti

    One of the great humorists of his time. Carlin was more than fun; he told the truth.

    “This country was founded by slaveowners who wanted to be free.”

    I share your horror of nationalism, and the phrase ‘Christian nation”; but if it is presented in certain contexts that characterization does have some validity.

  6. Western civilization was Christian for most of its time. Do you really think you can cancel this within some years of so-called “modernization” and atheist propaganda? You atheists are utopians. Look at history: once I debated with my atheist father about religion. He became excited and said that all wars had a religious background. I asked him what World War II had to do with religion? Hitler and Stalin were both atheist, the worst murderers and liars of all time.

  7. Web Hopper #7
    Feb 11, 2017 at 2:56 pm

    He became excited and said that all wars had a religious background. I asked him what World War II had to do with religion? Hitler and Stalin were both atheist, the worst murderers and liars of all time.

    Stalin was an atheist with a religious up-bringing but was a political ideologist.
    Hitler was baptised as a Catholic, was a Catholic Altar boy, was never ex-communicated, and was closely associated with the German churches through the 1930 until they had helped him into power and he no longer needed them.

    Of the other fascist dictators, Mussolini in exchange for Catholic support, set up the Vatican as a state under the Lateran Treaty, while Franco had support from the Catholic Church in exchange for allowing them to be subsidised by the state, and dominate the media and education!

    As I recall, the WW2 Japanese had a god-emperor! The emperor of Japan, even today, claims direct decent from the Shintō Sun Goddess Amaterasu.

    the worst murderers and liars of all time.

    That’s the thing about “faith-thinking” – It just makes up “alternative facts” and rewrites versions of events for gullible believers to uncritically accept, in place of real history!

    http://nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm

    Nazi artefacts of Christian influence (Mementoes, Badges, Paintings, etc.)

    There are even different “authentic”, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and Islamic versions of the 10 commandments!

  8. This is an answer to Alan4discussion whose comment was deleted…

    Hitler also made propaganda with the third Reich, which had a Christian background in that it refers to the Holy Trinity. Does it matter? No, because what counts is his personal beliefs and purposes, which was undeniably atheist. I mean his intention was not to build a nation based on Christian values. Quite the contrary. His hatred against Jews was based on hatred against religion. He also persecuted Christians.

    The Japaneses had a god-emperor just as Nero and other Roman emperors took themselves for gods. What has this to do with Christianity? Maybe I was not clear enough: when I debated with my father it was about the Christian religion. I am not as naive as to say that everything that happened during Christianity was ethical. It is well known that humans make errors, so also Christians. The question is whether atheists can create a better world as they pretend? Definitely not because every time a ruler attempted to do this he miserably failed. Look at national socialism, communism, etc. And I am sure that someone will again try it and lead the world into an unprecedented chaos.

  9. Web Hopper

    Western civilization was Christian for most of its time.

    That the Christian religion played a big role in Western civilization is undeniable. What we need to consider is what are the good results and what are the bad results of this. There are plenty of disastrous actions perpetrated by all sorts of Christians in our history. What’s wanted here is an account that is as historically objective as we can achieve. What is the value in just stating what is presented in red above? It gives no valuable information and leaves one with the impression that you’re going for a slam dunk rhetorical win for the purpose of furthering some sort of personal agenda.

    Do you really think you can cancel this within some years of so-called “modernization” and atheist propaganda?

    If it was my personal goal to “cancel this” I’d be pretty discouraged at this point. What would it take to cancel this? I suppose the first thing to be done to achieve a cancellation of this historic reality would be to order a massive worldwide book burning event. Also delete every mention of it off the internet. You see where I’m going with this. It’s ridiculous.

    I have no authority to speak for all atheists, it’s not possible to do so, but I’ll take a stab at it and say that atheists would appreciate a truthful and objective analysis of historical events in the interest of discovering and understanding the role of all religions in the course of history. What did it do right? Where did it go horribly wrong? How can we do things better? The whitewashing of history is not an atheist thing, is it? If you think so then consider presenting some examples. Also, what are some examples of “atheist propaganda?”

    Hitler and Stalin were both atheist, the worst murderers and liars of all time.

    This has been discussed here many times and when stated by those who are hostile to atheism, stands as an example of a statement that is parroted by those with little understanding of the actual motivations of both Hitler and Stalin. There is no direct line of motivation from Atheism to mass murder. Lack of a belief in supernatural deities couldn’t possibly drive atheists to mass murder and hate. If you disagree with this please feel free to explain how that could happen. Otherwise, stop just repeating these ridiculous simplistic statements just because they are convenient in your hostile view of the atheist community.

    I feel sorry for your atheist father. If he’s alive, please direct him to this website. It seems he may be in need of a compassionate community for the validation he lacks at home.

  10. Lack of a belief in supernatural deities couldn’t possibly drive atheists to mass murder and hate. If you disagree with this please feel free to explain how that could happen.

    As a Christian, I could explain you my point of view about this, but it will not convince you since it is a Christian point of view, which you do not agree upon. It is build on a logic you reject. So I only tell you to look at history that’s all.

  11. Web Hopper #10
    Feb 11, 2017 at 3:56 pm

    This is an answer to Alan4discussion whose comment was deleted…

    It has not been deleted. It has just been set aside by the anti-spam system for moderation of the link to NAZI_-Christian artefacts. It has now reappeared.

    Hitler also made propaganda with the third Reich, which had a Christian background in that it refers to the Holy Trinity. Does it matter? No, because what counts is his personal beliefs and purposes, which was undeniably atheist.

    He was always a Catholic, but may well be CALLED an atheist by those applying the “No True Scotsman fallacy” to the more evil Christians they wish to disown!

    I mean his intention was not to build a nation based on Christian values.

    His intension – being proclaimed “the “New Luther by his propagandists” was to create a Christian based NAZI Reich Church.

    The link on my earlier comment when it reappears, will show numerous NAZI-Christian medals and other artefacts.

    Quite the contrary.

    Not at all! Many Christians went along with NAZI ideology.
    Even before Hitler ,Germany had “Got Mit-Uns” on soldiers belt buckles, and later under Hitler “Gott Mit Uns (God With Us) Nazi Buckle” with a swastika!

    His hatred against Jews was based on hatred against religion.

    As did the anti-Semitic Christian churches of the 1930s.

    He also persecuted Christians.

    . . . . Later when those Christians disagreed with him and when he no longer needed them to help him achieve power!

    The Japaneses had a god-emperor just as Nero and other Roman emperors took themselves for gods.
    What has this to do with Christianity?

    Nothing! – But it had a lot to do with religion – which is the word you used in your earlier post @#7!

  12. Web Hopper #10

    You’re not going to be able to explain Hitler by reference to either his religion or lack of it. Hitler took elements from Christian, pagan and nordic religions and mixed them all up together for the furtherance of his own agenda. There’s more about religion and Nazism here, if you’re interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism.

    You’ll be hard put to find any rhyme or reason in his beliefs. I’d personally agree that Hitler was not a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word, but he wasn’t anything in any meaningful sense of the word – other than a Nazi and fascist. And he certainly wasn’t into either secularism or rationalism! Truly – Hitler doesn’t further either your argument or ours. Whatever was driving him, it wasn’t what presumably drives you, and it’s certainly not what drives me.

    You may not be aware of this – most Christians seem not to be – but one of the very first organisations to be outlawed by Hitler after he came to power was the German Freethinkers League: “The League was closed down in the spring of 1933, when Hitler outlawed all atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany. Freethinkers Hall, the national headquarters of the League, was then converted to a bureau advising the public on church matters.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Freethinkers_League)

  13. Web Hopper #12
    Feb 11, 2017 at 4:29 pm

    Lack of a belief in supernatural deities couldn’t possibly drive atheists to mass murder and hate. If you disagree with this please feel free to explain how that could happen.

    As a Christian, I could explain you my point of view about this, but it will not convince you since it is a Christian point of view, which you do not agree upon.

    On this site, most of us look at evidence regardless of whose point of view it is. If you can’t convince me it is because you make a poor case for your claim.

    It is build on a logic you reject.

    If the logic or the claims on which it is based are flawed it will be evaluated, and accepted or rejected on its merits or lack of them.

    So I only tell you to look at history that’s all.

    I looked at, and linked historical evidence, which refutes your claim about NAZI Germany.
    My comments on other fascist dictators can also be checked, so if you can find any errors, please point them out (along with references to reputable historical sources).

    https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

    Mein Kampf (1925-1926) – Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. (p. 65)

    Hitler may not have been your flavour of Christian, and certainly persecuted some churches at some times, but these do not sound like the words of an atheist to me!

  14. Web Hopper #16
    Feb 11, 2017 at 5:17 pm

    Read this:
    Religious views of Adolf Hitler

    @ your wiki link – Raised by an anti-clerical father[4] and practising Catholic mother, Hitler was baptised and confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church as a boy. Though he was sometimes critical of its teachings in adulthood, did not join in its rites, and planned a “reckoning” with the Church when politics allowed, he was still a member at the time of his suicide.[5][6] During his political career, Hitler said he supported Christianity in public speeches.[7][8][9] He sometimes made the claim in private statements,[10][11] though confidants like Goebbels and Bormann noted the reverse, and there is a consensus among historians that he became hostile to religion, mainly Christianity, at some point during adulthood.

    Anti-clerical does not mean atheist.
    Your link shows that he was a Catholic – and a lying Catholic who used Christianity for his own purposes. He became hostile to religion when it came into conflict with his purposes and his ideology, although some churches supported him.

    The Deutsche Christen (German Christians) were a German Protestantism movement aligned towards antisemetic principles of Nazism.
    The DC were sympathetic to Hitler’s goal of uniting the individual Protestant churches into a single Reich church.
    The DC was first formed in 1931 and the flag was flown during marches and demonstrations.
    (See my link @#8)
    This has NOTHING to do with atheism!
    Hostility to other people’s religions by fanatical believers in their own versions of gods, is nothing new!
    Historically – Crusades have been fought over such issues!

  15. Web Hopper #16
    Feb 11, 2017 at 5:17 pm

    Stalin and communism are more representative for a militant atheism.

    Stalin is representative of militant Communism which was unsurprisingly anti Christian, – given the the church supported the Czar in trying to put down the revolution, and had supported the aristocracy while it abused and oppressed the people!

    Stalin purged atheists just like he purged everyone else!

  16. Dan:

    …and the phrase ‘Christian nation”;
    but if it is presented in certain contexts that characterization does
    have some validity.

    Dan, I don’t understand. Can you tell me what do you mean? 🙂 … Did you mean that it is actually reality and in some contexts one can only agree with it? 🙂

  17. Loved everithing Alan (and other atheists said hahaha) and this from LaurieB:

    Lack of a belief in supernatural deities couldn’t possibly drive
    atheists to mass murder and hate. If you disagree with this please
    feel free to explain how that could happen. Otherwise, stop just
    repeating these ridiculous simplistic statements just because they are
    convenient in your hostile view of the atheist community.

  18. Web Hopper #7
    Feb 11, 2017 at 2:56 pm

    Western civilization was Christian for most of its time. Do you really think you can cancel this within some years of so-called “modernization” and atheist propaganda?

    Actually, the Ancient Greeks, Egyptians and Minoans in the years BC, were far more technically advanced and civilised, long before the Catholic Church of Rome brought the Dark Ages to Europe!

    It was only when the “Enlightenment” of the Protestant break-away, partially liberated the people from Papal theocracy and monopoly on literacy, that civilisation began to be re-established as feudal domination by the priesthood diminished and free-thinkers developed sciences, technologies, and social structures, for the benefit of the people.

    https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

    The Enlightenment’s most important idea was that all people can reason and think for themselves. Because of this, people should not automatically believe what an authority says. People do not even have to believe what churches teach or what priests say. This was a very new idea at the time.

    Another important idea was that a society is best when everyone works together to create it. Even people with very little power or money should have the same rights as the rich and powerful to help create the society they live in.[1] The nobility should not have special rights or privileges any more.

    These were very new ideas at the time. They were also dangerous thoughts for the people in power. Many Enlightenment philosophers were put in prison or were forced to leave their home countries.

  19. @Modesti #19

    Dan, I don’t understand. Can you tell me what do you mean?

    Maybe he was referring to the demographics: about 70% of Americans claim to be Christian.

  20. Vicki #22

    Yes I supose so… that is why I wrote that “…that it is actually reality…” I supose he was refering to that fact (reality). 🙂

  21. Web Hopper #16

    Stalin and Communism are more representative for a militant atheism.

    Why?

    Stalin was a tyrant.
    Communism as practised in the Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime.

    If you were to remove the persecution of religion from both Stalin and Soviet Communism, you’d still be left with a tyrant and a totalitarian regime.

    In fact, you only need look at pre-Revolution Russia – a country in which Orthodox Christianity held great power and influence – to see that militant atheism is by no means a prerequisite for tyranny. The structures and expectations of tyrannical power formed the backdrop of that country for many centuries before Communism and Stalin and atheism came along. Indeed, there has been no shortage of tyrannical religious regimes and movements over the ages, and not just non-Christian ones either.

    It is an unfortunate feature of the debate about religion vs atheism that there is a tendency to try to view everything through its lens. Totalitarian regimes have espoused both religious and anti-religious philosophies and policies and so, if we’re seeking to identify the underlying causes of tyranny and totalitarianism, there is little point atheists simply pointing at religion or religious people simply pointing at atheism. The truth is, the causes of tyranny are very much more complex and multifaceted than that, and in any case, tyrants will work with what they’ve got.

    Nor is it meaningful to cite numbers of people killed by the different forms of tyranny over the ages, as though that revealed anything about the relative malevolence of religious vs anti-religious regimes, since at different times and in different places tyrants (whether religious or anti-religious) have had different numbers of people in their power and different technological means of controlling/persecuting them – and consequently different numbers of victims.

    But I think your comment at #10 shows you’re not suggesting that tyranny always requires militant atheism; but rather, that militant atheism must always result in tyranny. If you’re being fair, though, I think you need to acknowledge that any militant regime will result in tyranny for its citizens (think Franco, Salazar, Pinochet; consider, too, that Robert Mugabe is a devout Roman Catholic who has been made welcome at the Vatican).

    The problem is a regime based on militancy, of whatever kind.

    And here I think fairness demands that we be careful about our vocabulary. The term “militant” has a broad spectrum of meanings, ranging from “enthusiastic and assertive” to “violent and bellicose” – which are not at all the same thing.

    Religious people often call atheists “militant” for no stronger reason than that the atheists in question have dared to challenge religious claims or the role of religion in society. In effect, “militant” becomes another term for “non-silent”. I have certainly encountered “enthusiastic and assertive” atheists, but so far, I’m glad to say, none who have been “violent and bellicose”. If I were to encounter this latter group, I would agree that I wouldn’t want them running my country, but that would be because they were “violent and bellicose”, not because they were atheist.

    But all this is in any case not really relevant to the article in the OP, which isn’t about atheism, militant or otherwise, but simply about secularism – which is not synonymous with atheism but simply means that the government of a country should be quite separate from religion: not hostile to it, but not promoting it either. Simply viewing religion as a private matter for citizens rather than a public matter for the state. The vast majority of atheists, however “militant” in the sense of “enthusiastic and assertive”, would be in favour of a secular state, not an atheist one.

    The USA has a secular constitution. This means it is unconstitutional for a state-funded school to display the Ten Commandments, since these are inherently religious. Indeed, not even just religious, but specific to Judaism/Christianity/Islam. The point of a secular state is that it is there on equal terms for all – Jews, Protestant Christians, Catholic Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Quakers, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists and anyone else, regardless of their religious beliefs. And therefore cannot promote any one religion, or family of religions, above any other.

    The freedom to practise a religion is far greater and more secure for followers of any and all religions in an avowedly secular state than it would be for a Christian in an avowedly Islamic state, or a Muslim in an avowedly Christian state, or (although atheism is not a religion, but rather a stance on religion) for an atheist in any theocratic state. (NB. The Soviet Union was not a secular state: it did not take a neutral stance on religion.)

  22. @7

    Hitler and Stalin were both atheist, the worst murderers and liars of all time.

    Wars are invariably caused by dogma, whether religious or otherwise. Nazism, Marxism, Christianity, Imperialism – all are dogmas and all have caused wars and been responsible for countless deaths and suffering.

    To date I have never heard of a war started in the name of free-thinking.

  23. 22, 23

    Modesti (Vicki)

    I don’t know exactly what I meant, to be honest…. I think I meant that there are a lot of Christians or so-called Christians in this country; and religion and heritage has become intertwined with a sense of (national) identity. Being Christian is part of their culture (whatever that means). I am not suggesting that Christians are more American than anyone else. I think that there are quite a few White Anglo-Saxon Christians and Southerners, unfortunately, who do feel that way, who feel that this is “their country.” That’s ridiculous, of course.

    I wish Trump and that guy Miller, and Bannon, would leave us all alone. I’m embarrassed to be an American. Watching the news as I write. A bunch of fear-mongering liars.

  24. Dan #26:

    You know I do not really understand this people need to be labled. This need to be part of a herd in order to have some identity. I don’t know…perhaps they do not have identity and dignity as an individual and it is safer to belong to a group. Like: “oh super, I have found this group of nation lovers and now I now who am I”. Is it possible that people are so scared of every day life and future that they do not want individuality? I presume that feeling of “being safe” is fundamental for anyone, but it is horrible when those who find safeness in herd are enable to stand someone elses freedom in such degree that they are willing to “kill” you and that freedom. To deprive individuality of others who do not belong to their herd? I know that govenments fuels that fears. They like their citizens to feel scared as much is possible…than they can offer salvation, right?

  25. It is clear to anybody with a brain, that religion has lost a lot of it’s power in western Europe, but it is still pernicious in it’s grip over quite a substantial number of 21st century people. Even in Britain we still allow parents to hack bits off baby boys in a iron-age blood sacrifice to the Abrahamic / Islamic god delusion. I still find this quite alarming! The moment when mankind looks to the stars with one mind is the day we can look beyond our primitive past! I don’t live in hope though, far too many small minded morons clinging to their bronze age “culture”. No concessions to the feeble minded! To cede that all ideas are equal is the biggest folly of todays liberal mind-set.

  26. Modesti (others)

    I found this passage:

    “The nationalist is by definition an ignoramus,” the Yugoslav writer Danilo Kis said. “Nationalism is the line of least resistance, the easy way. The nationalist is untroubled, he knows or thinks he knows what his values are, his, that’s to say national, that’s to say the values of the nation he belongs to, ethical and political; he is not interested in others, they are no concern of his, hell—it’s other people (other nations, another tribe). They don’t even need investigating. The nationalist sees other people in his own images—as nationalists.”

    Btw, someone I know made what I thought was a good point a few days ago. When Trump’s senior adviser says that thousands of illegal voters affected the election and that crime is getting worse and that the “media’ is fake, then these people are engaging in nothing short of “Domestic Terrorism”! Yes! Bull’e eye. We are in the hands of domestic terrorists, trying to disseminate fear, mislead the country, and generate confusion. Why won’t CNN call it like it is?

  27. While the bill talks broadly about posting “historically significant documents,” there’s no doubt that’s just a cover for the Decalogue. -OP

    The religious right is always trying to trick the public. They are using, in this instance, “historical significance” as a pretext to propagate religion, and to try undermine the establishment clause and to weaken the separation of church and state. They know that the constitution is not on their side, so they have to resort to subterfuge, a trojan horse. These people…

    “Hell is other people.”—Sartre

  28. Wonderful passage from Danilo. 🙂 Nationalism … the easy way. Yes. Concur with domestic terrorism…the media are especially involved in that terrorism by not addressing the subject more seriously. Avoiding the true meaning of things. Evil is always accompanied with lies…it is main characteristic of evil. As long as media will cover lies evil will flourish. Unfortunately most of the people think that lies, avoiding, pretences are not something important. Perhaps they will understand it when it will be too late,…when that domestic terror take them away choices and freedom. ” Hell is other people” …yes… good old projection. 🙁 Evil always see itself (or represent itself) as a victim. And a bible is so full of that ‘sublime sacrifice’. Horrible, horrible. 🙁

  29. Modesti

    Sociopaths always represent themselves and those they are loyal to as victims. I watched an interview with Kellyanne Conway, one of the most dangerous and loathsome human beings I have ever had the displeasure of listening to. She wouldn’t answer any of Jake Tapper’s questions about Trump’s lies and kept portraying him as a victim. And she’s a top adviser. Pathetic. Classic display of sociopathic defensiveness.

    These people are evil. Horrible situation.

    -Dan-ilo (Nice nickname.)

    P.S. “Hell is other people.” I was being ironic; I am a non-believer. I’ll phrase it another way: if there is no God, then there in no Devil; so how do you explain the recalcitrance, determination, and utter malevolence of Trump’s team? (It really does seem at times like they are minions, being controlled by something….)

  30. @Vicki #31

    the data backs me up on that

    Thanks for the link. It did outline both sides of this particular debate, which is good. Personally, I’m unconvinced at the verdict. Setting it up there with vaccination – as one doctor did – seems to be pushing an agenda.

    I’m reminded of “more doctors smoke Camels” type endorsements.

    But then we’re biased. Me and my foreskin, that is.

  31. Kellyanne’s a propagandist, is dangerous. But she’s not as dangerous as Stephen Miller, senior adviser to the President.

    Miller just said: “the authority of the President must not be questioned.” Those are the words of a fascist; and don’t kid yourselves that it isn’t.

  32. I am just looking at this interview with this Mrs. Conway (con – way hahaha). I struggle a bit with language because they speak so fast. Anyway, when he talks about terrorist attacks that are not being reported… how does he know about attacks if they were not recorded? Other attacks not being covered? One should wonder why doesn’t he says what are exactly those attacks. Clearly, he is an terrorist with an agenda against journalists. She came to this white house to serve she says. hahaha … a minion indeed. She thinks only because Trump is now president journalists shouldn’t question him and his actions… she said that journalist are not showing him respect. She thinks that he deserves respect only because he is now president? Evrybody should now stop asking him to be responsible and bow down to a Führer? But that is what servants do and how they think. He has to earn respect.

    Oh, I interpreted that “Hell is others” means that in the head of an evil person, hell and evil ones are always other people and never themselves. They are unable to see evil in themselves so they see it everywhere else (in others) … like a projection. Yes, those people in Trump teams are like minions haha. They have this blind respect and obediance toward authority (Führer) perhaps because it gives them identity and spine which they do not have in the first place. And that it gives them a sence of power (over someone; …which is sick because that is what psychopats need) . I don’t know. Just thinking…

  33. Dan #33
    Feb 13, 2017 at 7:01 pm

    P.S. “Hell is other people.” I was being ironic;
    I am a non-believer. I’ll phrase it another way:
    if there is no God, then there in no Devil;
    so how do you explain the recalcitrance, determination, and utter malevolence of Trump’s team?

    God-delusions – Demon-delusions?????
    If the “fuhrer” is a worshipped god-figurehead – why can’t his disciples obey their demon-delusions, which demand that life is a repressive Hell for other people???

    Dan #35
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:41 pm

    Miller just said: “the authority of the President must not be questioned.” Those are the words of a fascist;

    “Saint” Mother Teresa had this “repressive Hell”, off to a fine art, with her “experiencing the suffering of Jesus doctrine”! !

  34. Dan #33

    I’ll phrase it another way: if there is no God, then there is no
    Devil; so how do you explain the recalcitrance, determination, and
    utter malevolence of Trump’s team?

    Well, colour me controversial but I’d hazard a guess that the fields of psychology, psychiatry and sociology will prove more fruitful in this endeavour than a headlong rush to embrace supernatural explanations … 😉

  35. Marco,

    …no God, then there is no Devil; so how do you explain…

    I haven’t (yet) lost it completely; I was just extending my “hell” metaphor, and adding a wee bit of poetry and irony – to spice up my expressions of abhorrence of these frightful people.

    Modesti, that’s a good point: Ms. Conway has come to Serve! An apostate from the depths of fiery Hell!

    Your interpretation of the phrase that everyone associates with Sartre’s No Exit, is a fine one.

  36. Dan,

    Feeling slightly better today after the notorious Flynn was drop kicked into oblivion. One down – several more to go…

    The press are after them like bloodhounds now. What a goddamned circus.

  37. Laurie

    Yup. Their loss is our gain. I hate that arrogant nazi guy Miller. He looks and sounds like a nazi! Did you see him on Sunday? And why doesn’t Trump get rid of the notorious Bannon, that deranged pseudo-intellectual? A bunch of truly nefarious people. That Dr. Price fellow is awful, the new H&HS guy. He was asked about women and birth control and got annoyed, said something about how important it is to protect religious liberty.

    Trump has his head up his ass. I’m going to turn on the fake news now. (Kidding; it’s not all fake. Maddow was good last night. Starting to hate Chris Mathews.)

    Have a good day.

  38. I’m watching “fake news” MSNBC now. I’m relieved that numerous dems are calling for complete investigation all the way to the top. Trump is screwed. Don’t tell me he isn’t in it up to his neck and Pence is no innocent angel either, the hypocrite.

    I missed Maddow last night but what’s the problem with Matthews? I always find him to be a formidable interviewer. Aggravates me by molly coddling the Catholic church and so do Mica and Joe on Morning Joe. eye roll. whatever.

    There’s a White House briefing coming up in a few minutes. This will be very interesting.

  39. P.S. I love this. Watching some leading Democrats now talking about an independent investigation, and how spineless the Republicans are; for the most part; they appear indifferent to Russian interference and are stonewalling.

    Now Trump is going to know what Hillary went through! The shoe’s on the other foot now. But what Hillary did was nothing. She’s a fine public servant (imo), and never put our security at risk, not deliberately. This is something. This whole Russia thing really is a threat to national security.

    I love justice. I don’t want to say too much too soon, but this doesn’t look good for the new administration.

    Flynn calls himself a scapegoat. What a dirtbag.

    Spicer’s coming up soon. Hahaha

  40. I used to think Mathews was okay. But ever since Trump was elected he’s become wishy-washy. He doesn’t seem to care about anything anymore. I find him annoying now. He is no longer formidable; he has lost his edge. I think he’s either scared or showing his true corporate senile-conservative colors now.

    Micah is the biggest jackass on TV bar none. Can’t stand her. She rolls her eyes and pouts, is a prop, says nothing, cares about nothing, seemed happy when Trump won.

    Press conference was more of the same: BS.

    Btw, Laurie, it was a trust issue. Got it? A trust issue. Not a legal issue, a trust issue, trust issue. It was not a legal issue; it was a trust issue.

  41. Dan
    re: Mica – Can you blame her? Joe is incorrigible!

    Trust issues. Right. I might have a few myself. Thanks a lot Dan! You’ve sent me scurrying right back into therapy!

    Kidding. I’ve never been in therapy. Probably should have though.

    At least something to add that is somewhat on topic – apparently Devos the delusional mind slave has been touring around to get some idea of what her top level government job might entail, ~eye roll~ and Trump has commended her for being tough through the difficult proceedings. Apparently they discussed public schools, charter schools, private schools and homeschooling!! Here we go. Fundamentalists LOVE homeschooling so that they can control what is somewhat learned and definitely what is conveniently ignored. Don’t even tell me that taxpayer money will support homeschooling!!! Don’t go there! Why are they even talking about this at highest government levels? Tell me I’m being paranoid please.

  42. Laurie

    Did you see the press conference with Spicer? “Trust issue.” I hope you got my joke. He kept saying that.

    (Do you really have trust issues? Okay, you need in-depth psychoanalysis, on the couch, five days a week!)

    McConnell doesn’t want an independent investigation!

    My crazy stepsister home-schooled her kids, and that freak is a born again Christian. You’re right; fundamentalists love homeschooling. Charter schools = glorified home-schooling.

    (Personal remark: my mother took a very bad fall on the ice. She’s hobbling around now. The good news is thats she does weight lifting, takes good care of herself, has strong bones. Nothing broken.)

  43. Dan #35
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:41 pm

    Kellyanne’s a propagandist, is dangerous. But she’s not as dangerous as Stephen Miller, senior adviser to the President.

    It seems there is a cross-party call for an ethics investigation into Conway!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38975615

    Senior White House adviser Kellyanne Conway should be investigated over her promotion of Ivanka Trump’s products, a government ethics advisory body says.

    The Office of Government Ethics (OGE) found reason to believe Ms Conway had violated ethics rules, five days after she urged people to buy the president’s daughter’s range on Fox News.

    Her comments prompted complaints from both Democrats and Republicans.

    They have now been backed by the OGE, which is an independent body.

    In a letter on Tuesday, it advises the White House to investigate and possibly discipline Ms Conway.

    It adds pressure to the Donald Trump’s administration, in a week where national security adviser Michael Flynn was forced to step down over his contact with the Russian ambassador.

    The White House has so far stood behind Ms Conway, who urged people to “go buy” after retailer Nordstrom dropped Ivanka’s clothing line, citing a lack of sales.

    Press secretary Sean Spicer did say she had been “counselled” following the incident but the OGE letter said it had received no notice of “disciplinary or any other corrective action” against Ms Conway.

    “There is strong reason to believe that Ms. Conway has violated the Standards of Conduct and that disciplinary action is warranted,” the letter notes.

    Ethics rules state officials cannot use their position for personal gain. The letter says there is no doubt she appeared on television in her official capacity, as she sat in front of the White House seal and next to an American flag.

    It recommended the investigation and any disciplinary action be taken by 28 February.

  44. Alan,

    Breaking news: Trump is ordering an internal investigation into the white-house leaks that led to the exposure of Flynn.

    But he and his party are dead against an independent investigation into Russia’s interference in the election.

    It’s positively infuriating!

    And inspiring….

    It’s the theater of the absurd, comedy, surrealism, realism, drama, and last but not least, tragedy, all rolled into one. What a play it would make!

  45. What sort of disciplinary action could be taken against Conway?

    Dan,
    I saw Spicer. Yes I got it!

    A fall at our moms’ age frightens me. Broken hips etc.

    Next dismal failure for Trump will be his visit with Netanyahu coming up soon. Trump intends to solve the Palestinian problem. Right. Press will discover them wrestling on the carpet in the oval office with Netanyahu stuck in a headlock under the coffee table. Trump diplomacy. Next month a thousand more settlements appear out of nowhere in the occupied territories. Same old story.

  46. Dan #48
    Feb 14, 2017 at 6:49 pm

    It’s the theater of the absurd, comedy, surrealism, realism, drama, and last but not least, tragedy, all rolled into one.
    What a play it would make!

    Ah! You mean a sequel to this one!

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074119/plotsummary

    ** All the President’s Men (1976)**

    Factual account of investigative journalists Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein of the Washington Post whose reporting of the Watergate break-in eventually led to the resignation of Richard Nixon, 37th President of the United States. The film focuses on the period from the break-in on June 17, 1972 to Nixon’s re-election in November later than year. Their perseverance – and the support of their editors – revealed that the break-in at the Watergate office complex was only one small part of a much larger network of intelligence gathering activities, many of which were illegal.

  47. A4D

    The book was better. Even more telling was the follow-up book, The Final Days. It was full of minutiae and a bit lumbering, but reading about Nixon crumbling psychologically was somehow satisfying. His entire cabinet grew increasingly frantic as the walls closed in. Ah, the reporting team of “Woodstein.”

    The investigation(s) need to be independent. The Republicans can try to put it off, but it would be better for the country if it was sooner rather than later.

    Dan

    The next few weeks will be pretty interesting. Will it be history repeating itself, as in Nixon’s fall? Or life imitating art, as in Shakespeare’s soothsayer warning Caesar to beware the Ides of March?

  48. @#15 – Mein Kampf (1925-1926)
    Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew,
    I am fighting for the work of the Lord. (p. 65)

    Reflecting on my earlier comment, and the allegeged “benefits to societies of religions”, – this could equally well have been written by a Palestinian jihadist up-holding the same “commandments” in the struggles with Zionists in last few decades!

  49. Dan #48
    Feb 14, 2017 at 6:49 pm

    Breaking news: Trump is ordering an internal investigation into the white-house leaks that led to the exposure of Flynn.

    That sounds about par for the course.
    Investigate the whistle-blower who busted the cover-up, while denying the problem!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38983742

    President Donald Trump has lashed out at the US intelligence community and media after new reports of contacts between members of his team and Russia.

    Mr Trump accused the National Security Agency (NSA) and FBI of giving out information illegally.

    Some US media say top Trump aides were in constant communication with Russian officials in the election campaign.

    Intelligence officials previously said they believed Russia tried to influence the vote in favour of Mr Trump.

    The latest allegations look set to reignite tensions between the president and his own intelligence services, which flared during the 2016 election campaign, says BBC Washington correspondent Gary O’Donoghue.

    They come a day after National Security Adviser Michael Flynn resigned amid a row over reports he discussed US sanctions with Russia before Mr Trump took office.

    Leading Republicans have joined calls for a wide investigation into Mr Flynn’s links with Russia.

    Mr Trump appeared to attack the NSA and the FBI for what he described as leaks to the media about the contacts.

    “Information is being illegally given to the failing @nytimes & @washingtonpost by the intelligence community (NSA and FBI?),” he tweeted.

    It really is pathetically comical for the blundering Trump who is ignoring the constitution and various laws, to be pontificating on “What is legal”!

    But in another tweet he suggested that the reports were “non-sense” produced by his Democratic opponents.

    “This Russian connection non-sense is merely an attempt to cover-up the many mistakes made in Hillary Clinton’s losing campaign.”

    The tweets came after the New York Times quoted unnamed former and current officials as saying that the communications were intercepted as evidence of Russian hacking of the Democratic National Committee was coming to light. Other media have since corroborated the reports.

    The intercepted communications were said to be between Trump campaign officials and other associates on the one hand, and Russian intelligence and government officials on the other.

    Mr Flynn and Mr Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, were said to be among those mentioned by the officials.

    Mr Manafort told the newspaper: “I have never knowingly spoken to Russian intelligence officers, and I have never been involved with anything to do with the Russian government or the Putin administration or any other issues under investigation today.

    “It’s not like these people wear badges that say: ‘I’m a Russian intelligence officer.'”

    Perhaps if the Trump team bothered to ask questions at the intelligence briefings they don’t seem to attend, someone might have warned them or told the clueless what they had been doing!

    As well as an FBI investigation, both the Senate and House intelligence committees are already examining Russian involvement in the election. It is not yet clear whether the latest claims will be included in their scope.

    The immature knee-jerk ranting denial goes on!

    A competent and intelligent president would listen to advice from the professional agencies, and await the findings of the independent inquiries, but loud-mouth Trump, “knows it all” without bothering to seek accurate information!
    I suppose that’s why he employs a bunch of goons to make up “alternative facts”, and why he had no idea how to properly check credentials before making appointments!!!

    Trump has made a whole string of careless impetuous executive orders, bypassing the Congress and the Senate, so it is perhaps no surprise that even the Republicans are starting to reign in his activities, as one after another emerges as an incompetent calamity in an incredibly short time!!

  50. Vicki,

    I didn’t see read the book. How could it be better than the movie? Redford and Hoffman! Two greats. (I’ve met Bernstein.) I look like a young Redford.

    I don’t know what’ll happen. I think Trump is, in some ways, far worse than Nixon. He’s blaming the media again for Flynn’s fate, and is upset about leaks; but loves leaks when they benefit him.

    Maybe “Putingate” will be his undoing.

    I hate Netanyahu and Trump’s a complete ignoramus, a beast.

    Alan, Palestinian jihadists? That sounds like Breitbart-style propaganda. (Unworthy of you.) Why conflate the two and create false equivalents? Israel has been the victimizer, and has committed many atrocities, many human rights violations, and has violated international law. The brutal and legally invalid occupation is the issue, must end. There are not two sides to this issue, in my opinion.

  51. Alan

    P.S. Are there Palestinian jihadists? Yeah. Were there some black slaves that wanted to wipe out all whites? Probably. But the underlying problem was slavery, not those slaves. Not the best analogy, but you see my point (I hope); I’m sure there were religious Jews living in the Ghettos, in Nazi Germany, who wanted to wipe out the Germans, etc.

    Sorry I said you sounded like a Breitbart guy.

  52. Dan #54
    Feb 15, 2017 at 3:27 pm

    Alan, Palestinian jihadists? That sounds like Breitbart-style propaganda. (Unworthy of you.)

    Not really! – Such people exist!

    I did not say all Palestinian fighters ARE jihadists, – merely that some of them are!

    Why conflate the two and create false equivalents? Israel has been the victimizer, and has committed many atrocities, many human rights violations, and has violated international law.

    The point I was making, was about the conflicts religion creates, and the atrocities its conflicting god-delusions inspire. – Even when working from (roughly) the same god’s “holy texts and commandments”!

    Both the Zionists and the Muslim Palestinians claim their god is on their side! – along with meddling foreign Christians, further complicating the difficulties!

  53. Dan

    How could it be better than the movie?

    The books are always better than the movies, with one exception: The Exorcist.

    I look like a young Redford.

    Lol, I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.

  54. Alan4discussion #53
    Feb 15, 2017 at 12:33 pm

    Trump has made a whole string of careless impetuous executive orders, bypassing the Congress and the Senate, so it is perhaps no surprise that even the Republicans are starting to reign in his activities, as one after another emerges as an incompetent calamity in an incredibly short time!!

    The wheels are really falling off in incredibly short order. Less than a month in and it’s a continual stream of clusterF**s. Trump is clearly incapable of changing or moderating his behaviour which I’m sure stems from his narcissistic personality disorder which means he doesn’t believe that the rules other people have to abide by ever apply to him. However he’s not smart enough to be discrete. His tweet ranting about confidential information about Russian contacts being leaked surely implies that those leaks are true. His team was apparently in “constant” contact with Russian intelligence throughout the election campaign and it’s inconceivable that this was without his knowledge and in fact no doubt at his bidding. FBI director Comey still chose to keep quiet about all this though while feeling it essential to break the rule about not commenting on ongoing investigations when it came to Hillary. Absolutely disgusting.

    Obama could have stopped Trump’s campaign dead in its tracks with this if he hadn’t been so sure Hillary was going to win anyway. A massive blunder which has had appalling consequences for America and the world.

    Puzder dropping out now makes that the 4th Trump pick I think to have been proven to be a terrible choice although that description seems to fit all of them. However even the most die hard Trump supporters can’t ignore all of this surely. The Repubs in congress aren’t anyway. They’re looking like startled chickens with a fox in the hen house. They have no idea what to do or how bad the carnage is going to be.

    I think Trump will implode in the end. He’s totally out of his depth, lurching from one catastrophe to another, a poster child for Dunning-Kruger, total incompetence driven by massive ego. There doesn’t even appear to be any need to give him more rope because he keeps grabbing it unaided.

    Several months ago I made a comment that if the intelligence community and foreign governments felt they couldn’t reveal anything confidential to Trump in case it went straight to Putin that we might end up with a two tier government. The White House being bypassed due to lack of trust and a shadow government actually running things behind the scenes. That now appears to be coming to pass. It seems Trump received sensitive info over dinner in public at Mar-a-Lago with people holding up unsecure cellphones as torches so he could read it in front of them. Even the Republicans can’t ignore it any longer and although they’re trying to put a brave face on things in public they are apparently admitting their real feelings in private.

  55. Alan

    The point I was making, was about the conflicts religion creates, and the atrocities its conflicting god-delusions inspire.

    I can’t argue with that, but I do take issue with this:

    Both the Zionists and the Muslim Palestinians claim their god is on their side!

    When you say “the Zionists” you are implying that they are all religious. They aren’t. Far from it. Zionism is a nationalistic, right-wing movement. It is distorted, inaccurate, and simplistic to portray Zionism as a religiously inspired movement only. They use religion for political gain, try to blur the distinction between Judaism and Zionism. Many Israeli Zionists are simply racists and nationalists, and do not have a religious bone in their body. A lot has been written about this.

    The Muslim Palestinians claim that God is on their side.

    First you say “some”, and then you say “The Muslim Palestinians” which implies all. Are the children and people, the families, in the occupied territories, who are just human beings like you and me, and who are suffering and trying to live, to survive, and who are being brutalized, and not “fighting” even, making that claim? Sorry if I’ve misunderstood you.

    Vicki,

    The worst film adaptation I’ve ever seen was Moby Dick, with Gregory Peck (who I also resemble).

  56. Arkrid,

    Nothing is worse than Hillary lying about her health, when she was clearly at death’s door.

    There was tremendous interference with the election, from what I’ve heard. More than most people know. The Russians infiltrated the internet and furnished fake news stories. They are old hands at that kind of thing, and hired “trolls”, etc. The health-issue story was probably of Russian origin. Comey tipped the scale. All the polling indicates that that was a decisive turning-point. They were all working together, I think. But only an independent investigation will prove it. Or at least a well managed investigation w/ no conflicts of interest. Sessions cannot be involved. The Repubs don’t want an investigation, and it’s interesting that Putin took Obama’s sanctions very calmly. Uncharacteristic of him.

    I think they should do the election over. Unprecedented but necessary.

    They were all over Hillary, a good and capable public servant, because she didn’t tell anyone about her frigging pneumonia and the emails that didn’t affect our national security, and was certainly not a deliberate attempt to undermine it.

    Maybe people will respect Hillary more now, and will see the irony and the justice in his undoing due to real “crookedness”.

    Complete and utter hypocrisy. Hillary is not “crooked”; he is. (She made some mistakes. Granted.)

    As I said above, Trump et al are blaming the media again for Flynn’s exposure, and are upset about leaks; but they love leaks when they benefit them. This CANnot go on.

    Laurie, were my remarks to Alan (above) too harsh? off base? (You don’t have to read them.) Yes, I saw the conference. Depressing. Almost funny. Trump knows about as much about that issue as I do about physics. (But I fake it better.)

  57. Dan #59
    Feb 15, 2017 at 5:11 pm

    Both the Zionists and the Muslim Palestinians claim their god is on their side!

    When you say “the Zionists” you are implying that they are all religious.

    Their claim is based on biblical literacy of a land promised by their god.

    They aren’t. Far from it. Zionism is a nationalistic, right-wing movement. It is distorted, inaccurate, and simplistic to portray Zionism as a religiously inspired movement only.

    Whether they honestly believe this, or simply cynically use it to facilitate theft of land, it is nevertheless a, OT. religion based claim.

    They use religion for political gain, try to blur the distinction between Judaism and Zionism.

    Most minor groups of religious fundamentalists and extremists use the wider population of more moderate fellow believers as a pretend inclusive smoke-screen.

    The Muslim Palestinians claim that God is on their side.

    First you say “some”, and then you say “The Muslim Palestinians” which implies all.

    Yes. At first I refer to the fanatics – the suicide bombers etc. – but in such situations populations are polarised into “sides” by armed militias, which take an, “if you are not with us you are against us”, view.
    In these lawless situations, anyone openly neutral, is likely to be shot at by both sides or accused of being an undercover traitor!

    It is religiously tribal. (Thou shalt not kill/steal from, members of your own tribe – anybody else is fair game!)

    were my remarks to Alan (above) too harsh? off base?

    Don’t worry about it.
    I have a good nature and a thick skin – hardened in politics by people who make malicious attacks rather than misunderstood criticisms!

  58. Arkrid (others)

    P.S. Had it not been for the leaks Flynn would never have been let go!!

    Not clear about your two-tier theory.

  59. Does it matter? No, because what counts is his personal beliefs and
    purposes, which was undeniably atheist. I mean his intention was not
    to build a nation based on Christian values. Quite the contrary. His
    hatred against Jews was based on hatred against religion. He also
    persecuted Christians. #10

    Hitler, for what it matters, was a disturbed and troubled man, not a man without supernatural beliefs (an atheist) or scientifically skeptical, you can guess that was so, once he described how he felt a mystical feeling when he looked at the arrow that supposely trespassed Jesus- that´s why it was hidden from him. Hitler planned to restore ancient arian religion, and the celebration of some blood rituals even were practised among SS military. So Hitler was troubled in a similar way than a messianic religion is, as far as it desperately predicts the end of history, I think as kind of relief (so does communism? and perhaps you can really see what a meme is: after a long period of religion it really has proven to be deeply engrained in the brain, afterall, a long period of christianism had some consequences?)
    Hitler made up his escape goats, of course, to justify a myth of a superior race, judaism and christianism were not part of his final plans we know, although he clearly took advantage of christianity at first, truth was not his virtue.

  60. Arkrid Sandwich #58
    Feb 15, 2017 at 5:02 pm

    I think Trump will implode in the end. He’s totally out of his depth, lurching from one catastrophe to another, a poster child for Dunning-Kruger, total incompetence driven by massive ego. There doesn’t even appear to be any need to give him more rope because he keeps grabbing it unaided.

    He has just stuck his wellies into the two state Palestinian peace proposals, and thinks that some Trump magical whizz-kid one-state solution is going to appear!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/15/donald-trump-slams-leaks-contact-russian-intelligence-ahead/

    President Donald Trump has declared war on his own intelligence agencies over “un-American” and scandalous leaks, that his aides had been in “constant communication” with Russian intelligence officials during the presidential campaign.

    Mr Trump claims the “real scandal” is not the alleged ties to Russia, but politically-motivated leaks from within the US government.

    Hours after Michael Flynn, Mr Trump’s national security adviser, resigned after misleading the White House over conversations with the Russian ambassador to the US, reports emerged that key campaign aides had also been communicating with Russian officials.

    That scandal began after US officials leaked the fact that Mr Flynn had discussed sanctions with the ambassador. Leaks also prompted the controversy over the “dirty dossier” prepared by a former MI6 operative, and have plagued the first weeks of the Trump administration.

    Mr Trump defended Mr Flynn during today’s press conference with Benjamin Netanyahu, saying his former adviser is a “wonderful man“.

  61. A lovely sense of history (as always) and reality

    A spring poem by Fernando Pessoa

    When spring arrives

    When spring arrives,
    And I by then should happen to be dead,
    The flowers will blossom as before
    And the trees be no less green than in spring of last year.
    Reality has no need of me.

    I sense a tremendous joy
    At the thought that my death has no significance whatever.

    If I knew I would die tomorrow
    And that spring would be there the day after,
    I would die content, since it was spring the following day.
    If it was time for it, for when else would it come than when it was time?
    I relish the fact that all is real and all as it must be;
    And relish the fact it would also be so even if I did not relish it.
    For all is real and all is as it must be.

    Let prayers be said in Latin over my coffin, if so desired.
    If so desired, let there be dancing and singing around it.
    I have no preferences for when I no longer can have any preferences.
    Whatever will be, when it shall be, will be what it is.

    A John Irons translation from Portuguese

    No despair whatsoever to seek for the end of history (or salvation)

  62. Dan

    I don’t think you were harsh. A4d can hold his own! These terms and positions are very important to clarify. I’m sick of being accused of being an anti-semite just because I’m critical of zionism. Sick of being shut up with an insult/ignorance like that. The whole thing is one big land grab with religion dragged in around the edges whenever they can find the opportunity to do so.

    I can’t believe the blundering ignorance of Trump at that press conference today. Very frightening. He blithely blabbers on about how a one state solution would be fine with him. Oh, whatever the Israelis and Palestinians want is fine with me…blah…blah… As if the Palestinians have one word to say about anything. ~snort~
    And he’s thinking fondly of moving the embassy to Jerusalem. Ho-hum, no big deal…blah…blah…

    Holy shit. Run for your life! Head for the hills!! This guy is gonna get us killed.

    Trump just made every extremist on both sides of the problem very excited today. Not good.

  63. Maria Melo #65,

    “So Hitler was troubled in a similar way than a messianic religion is…”

    Interesting phrase. The great (late) historian George Mosse goes into the religious-ritualistic aspect of fascism at great length, in his book The Fascist Revolution, where he describes fascism as a political liturgy.

    (This book is considered by many scholars be one of the most important works on fascism ever written.)

  64. @Alan #50

    More like a prequel to this one:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

    Idiocracy (2006)

    Private Joe Bauers, the definition of “average American”, is selected by the Pentagon to be the guinea pig for a top-secret hibernation program. Forgotten, he awakes five centuries in the future. He discovers a society so incredibly dumbed down that he’s easily the most intelligent person alive.

    .. check out the future President. Usually sci-fi underestimates the time needed for the imagined future to arrive. In this case they seem to have badly over-estimated. 10 years, not 500.

  65. LaurieB #60
    Feb 15, 2017 at 5:21 pm

    Arkrid

    Pence is being portrayed as an innocent victim of Flynn’s bad judgement and deception. You buying it?

    Pence is keeping such a low profile it’s hard to know what he’s up to. His stance during the campaign was always anti Russia and I think his main agenda is purely religious based – homosexuality, abortion etc. I doubt he actually agrees on much with Trump but he’s swallowed whatever pride and morals he might have had to grab his moment in the spotlight. While he was endorsing Ted Cruz early last year he called Trump’s talk about a Muslim ban offensive and unconstitutional. I doubt he was even consulted about the Executive Order and I suspect he’s just being used as a convenient excuse to justify Flynn’s resignation to avoid Trump having to say he had any involvement.

    The intelligence agencies have now said they can confirm that parts of the MI6 guy’s Russian dossier are true, at least in terms of some conversations between foreign nationals which do seem to have taken place as described in it. Whether enough additional verification will come out in the end to hang Trump with it I tend to doubt although I’m quite sure Trump is up to his eyeballs in the whole thing and I’ve stated my views on what Trump and Putin have planned together at length in here previously. I just think there’s so much pressure on the issue at the moment that Trump can’t go ahead with lifting sanctions yet and getting Tillerson out there.

    I suspect Trump wants Pence as far out of every loop as possible and he’ll be pretty much a non-entity for the next four years. In fact I wonder sometimes if Pence is the source of some of the constant White House leaks in the hope that he’ll end up as President if Trump gets impeached.

  66. Dan,

    “So Hitler was troubled in a similar way than a messianic religion is…”

    I was being excessive and provocative actually, talking about some sort of different kind of “Nirvana” which I think that communism is one of them (all history resumes to the strugle of social groups… and has it´s laws of development, it will end up like… and then it finally reaches the end of history…

  67. Literally, according to a young writer, people in North Corea think they are the best country in the world once they achieved the highest degree in History (communism), these are “scientific” laws of History development (which is not linear); these are inescaple laws of History (excepting then the permanent revolution concept), communism is in these aspects a myth of History, as far as religion seem to be too.
    Of course I think when someone says Hitler was an atheist that´s prejudice against “atheists”, it´s not based on any reliable historical fact, other than malicious prejudice.

  68. Dan #71
    Feb 15, 2017 at 9:56 pm

    There are non-religious aspects of the Zionist movement, as this article makes clear. This subject really needs to be studied. It is complex.

    Trump now seems to have a long standing Zionist/Israeli representative in his cabinet – and in his family!

    Arkrid Sandwich #72
    Feb 16, 2017 at 1:33 am

    The intelligence agencies have now said they can confirm that parts of the MI6 guy’s Russian dossier are true, at least in terms of some conversations between foreign nationals which do seem to have taken place as described in it.

    . . . and to follow on from discussions with Russians prior to appointments in the Trump team:-

    http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-trump-in-1st-summit-with-israel-s-1487176588-htmlstory.html

    Netanyahu strongly defended Trump when asked about the xenophobic and anti-Semitic sentiments unleashed by some of his supporters during the presidential race last year.

    “There is no greater friend of Israel,” Netanyahu said of Trump, then singled out Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, as a lifelong family friend.

    Kushner, a 36-year-old observant Jew with no formal diplomatic experience, has been tapped by Trump to lead negotiations with Israel and the Palestinians.

    Both Trump and Netanyahu said they were finding that several Arab countries now see Iran and radical Islam as enemies worth joining forces to fight, instead of seeing Israel as the primary enemy.

    In contrast to the often-chilly joint appearances that Netanyahu had with President Obama, the Israeli leader’s arrival on the south steps of the White House was full of smiles, kisses and warm handshakes shared by the two leaders and their wives.

    “Our alliance has always been strong, but under your leadership, it will be even stronger,” Netanyahu said.

    Jared Kushner as an “honest broker” in a “peace deal” between Palestinians and Israel, is a delusional sick joke – characteristic of Trump!

    I suppose it is only to be expected in a stooge administration.

    Carbonaceous denial stooges, anti-vaxer stooges, anti-abortion stooges, Russian stooges, Israeli stooges, banker de-regulation stooges, anti-public health stooges, and anti-expert stooges in general!

    All “experts” in denial of evidence and advice, from “big-government”, administrative specialists, expert agencies, scientific bodies, legal advisors, judges, diplomats, the CIA, the FBI, and high-tec industries to name but a few!

  69. At a press conference with Netanyahu yesterday Trump was asked a question about the rise in anti-semitic incidents in the USA since his election. All he had to say was we’re going to do everything in our power to prevent anti-semitism in any form – next question. However his response was bizarre to the point you have to wonder what’s going on inside the head of someone like this. He started rambling about the size of his electoral college win although perhaps we can be glad he didn’t mention the size of his crowds again. It’s reminiscent of the “stream of consciousness” ramblings that Sarah Palin used to spew out when she didn’t know the answer to a simple question. However I think it goes to show Trump’s obsessions and they seem to be mainly about “ratings” in his own little internal game show world. I wonder how he’s coping with the fact that every new poll shows his popularity continuing to plummet as he fills his cabinet with deplorables and gets humiliated by Mexico and then China when he tries to bully them. His ego and NPD illness will be trying desperately to maintain the internal illusion he’s the greatest person who ever lived but reality will be inexorably chipping away at this. I wonder if an actual breakdown will eventually result.

    http://time.com/4672402/donald-trump-anti-semitism-netanyahu/

    The scene: A joint press conference with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. An Israeli reporter asked a straightforward question about “a sharp rise in anti-Semitic incidents across the United States” since his election. Here’s how Trump responded:

    Well, I just want to say that we are, you know, very honored by the victory that we had — 316 electoral college votes. We were not supposed to crack 220. You know that, right? There was no way to 221, but then they said there’s no way to 270. And there’s tremendous enthusiasm out there. I will say that we are going to have peace in this country. We are going to stop crime in this country. We are going to do everything within our power to stop long simmering racism and every other thing that’s going on. There’s a lot of bad things that have been taking place over a long period of time. I think one of the reasons I won the election is we have a very, very divided nation, very divided. And hopefully, I’ll be able to do something about that. And I, you know, it was something that was very important to me. As far as people, Jewish people, so many friends; a daughter who happens to be here right now; a son-in-law, and three beautiful grandchildren. I think that you’re going to see a lot different United States of America over the next three, four or eight years. I think a lot of good things are happening. And you’re going to see a lot of love. You’re going to see a lot of love. OK? Thank you.

  70. (…)*Neo-pagan doctrine[edit]
    The Wewelsburg was the most important site in Himmler’s pseudo-Germanic religious doctrine.In order to promote his religious ideas and link them to an alleged Germanic tradition, Himmler began to establish cult sites. The most important of these was the Wewelsburg, close to Paderborn.[57] The SS leased the castle in 1934, after Himmler had first seen it in November 1933 while campaigning with Hitler. Originally planned as a school for high ranking SS-men, the castle soon became the object of far reaching construction plans, with an aim at establishing the Wewelsburg as the “ideological center” of the SS and its pseudo-Germanic doctrine.[58][59] In accordance with the other efforts of Himmler to replace Christian rituals and establish the SS as the Nazi “elite”, the Wewelsburg received special rooms, such as crypts, a General’s hall with a sun wheel embedded in the floor and a crest hall.[60] As a second location, Himmler ordered for a memorial of 4,500 giant foundlings to be placed near Verden an der Aller, the scene of the infamous Massacre of Verden in 782, calling the place Sachsenhain. At the sight of the Externsteine, which at the time was believed to be close to the scene of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, Himmler ordered excavations to take place there in order to prove that Christian monks had destroyed a Germanic cult site known as Irminsul during the Middle Ages. As a last site of Himmler’s cult, the SS took over and remodelled Quedlinburg Abbey, burial place of Henry the Fowler, who was celebrated by Himmler for his refusal to be anointed by a Roman bishop.[61]
    Himmler also instituted these rites and rituals to try and foster a greater sense of belonging to a fraternal order. For example, each year on the anniversary of the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch, the SS men duty-bound for the military units were sworn in at 10:00 pm in front of Hitler. There by torchlight they swore “obedience unto death”.[62]
    However, these attempts to establish a new, neo-pagan religion were not successful. Historian Heinz Höhne observes that the “neo-pagan customs” Himmler introduced into the SS “remained primarily a paper exercise”.[47] Most of Himmler’s attempts to link “old Teutonic” traditions into the spiritual life of the SS and society at large were criticised by the Church as a form of “new heathenism.”[63] Although the SS never endorsed Christian beliefs, the traditional rituals and practices of the Christian faith were generally tolerated and respected.[64] According to Bastian Hein, two reasons contributed to Himmler’s Ersatz religion never catching on: On the one hand, Himmler himself was in a constant search for religious certainty, leaving his doctrine vague and unclear. On the other hand, Hitler personally intervened after the churches lamented the “neo-heathenish” tendencies within the SS, telling Himmler and Alfred Rosenberg to “cut out the cultic nonsense”.[65]*

  71. Something I meant to comment on earlier but forgot. After Trump’s embarrassing 19 second handshake with Japanese PM Abe, Rachel Maddow showed a montage of Trump handshakes on film and they’re very bizarre. He tends to yank the person’s hand right in to his own body so as to pull them off balance and dominate them. It may be involuntary but it’s an insight into the strange compulsions raging inside him, his insecurity and need to control everything and everyone.

  72. LaurieB #68
    Feb 15, 2017 at 6:44 pm

    I can’t believe the blundering ignorance of Trump at that press conference today. Very frightening.
    He blithely blabbers on about how a one state solution would be fine with him.
    Oh, whatever the Israelis and Palestinians want is fine with me…blah…blah… As if the Palestinians have one word to say about anything.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-38989906

    The UN chief has warned Donald Trump against abandoning the idea of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, saying there is “no alternative”.

    What is the two-state solution?

    A “two-state solution” to the decades-old conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is the declared goal of their leaders and the international community.

    It is the shorthand for a final settlement that would see the creation of an independent state of Palestine within pre-1967 ceasefire lines in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, living peacefully alongside Israel.

    The UN, the Arab League, the European Union, Russia and, until now, the US routinely restate their commitment to the concept.

    Following the news conference, UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres urged the international community to do everything it could to bring about a two-state solution.

    He said there was no other option for resolving the conflict.

    Trump’s blabberings remind me of a joke which was much repeated at the expense of a blockhead know-it-all councillor, who shared “his whizzdumb” with a newly elected young politician on how to conduct public speaking and answer questions.

    “If you are asked questions by the public, – just keep talking until you can think of something to say!” 🙂

  73. Arkrid

    “His [Pence’s] stance during the campaign was always anti Russia and I think his main agenda is purely religious based.”

    Too simple. It’s not just religious based. I for one will never fully understand the American far-Right; but there are other elements: why do they all (including “Christian” Pence) support the free market? Why do they support abolishing the ACA, etc.? Why are so may libertarians racists? (This is supported by history.) It’s about greed, power, exploitation, and private profit; there is a twisted ideological vision. Religion plays a role, and is one element among others.

    Maria, the “rites and rituals” associated with National Socialism (fascism) has a religious (mystical) component. That was all I was saying, and I thought that that’s what you were hinting at. The concept of “Destiny”, by the way, which I think you mentioned, is part of the language and ideology of fascism – and Christianity.

    Thanks for the info re Himmler, although I could have lived without it.

    Was the führer an atheist? religious? Who cares? Maybe he was a bit of both depending on the time of day. I think he just used whatever he could, borrowed whatever he could, to mislead and control people, to organize, to gain mass support.

    Soviet Communism (after Lenin), had many difficult and burdensome and tyrannical elements to it. (Some socialists scholars view it as a stage.) In any case, one mustn’t conflate “communism” with dictatorship and Utopianism. That is a very common impulse. It suggests an obscenely simple view, one held by most right wing capitalists and other prejudiced people. (Some scholars spend their lives studying Marx and Trotsky; you can’t just say that “communism” is bad, or that it one thing and one thing only.)

    I think Hegel did a lot of damage with his principle that Germany was the center of civilization and with his ridiculous notion that History was unfolding and would someday reach its goal: an ultimate and final fruition of some kind. That’s an illusion, a lie, it’s mythologizing.

  74. Dan #83
    Feb 16, 2017 at 1:55 pm

    Watching Trump’s press conference. He’s mentally unstable, out of control.

    Mental health professionals are keeping quiet no longer despite the so called Goldwater Rule prohibiting the evaluation of public figures.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/13/opinion/mental-health-professionals-warn-about-trump.html?smid=fb-share&_r=2&mtrref=www.independent.co.uk&assetType=opinion

    Mr. Trump’s speech and actions demonstrate an inability to tolerate views different from his own, leading to rage reactions. His words and behavior suggest a profound inability to empathize. Individuals with these traits distort reality to suit their psychological state, attacking facts and those who convey them (journalists, scientists).

    In a powerful leader, these attacks are likely to increase, as his personal myth of greatness appears to be confirmed. We believe that the grave emotional instability indicated by Mr. Trump’s speech and actions makes him incapable of serving safely as president.

  75. Dan,

    Hi there!

    Maria, the “rites and rituals” associated with National Socialism
    (fascism) has a religious (mystical) component.

    In fact an evil component, that doesn´t seem to have nothing to do with the pious christ preaching for love of humanity (the way I see christianity actually and that I never thought as ridiculous as Richard Dawkins or C. Hitchens do/did), neither has it apparently has to do with atheism, in it´s common meaning of skepticism. Hitler was all mumbo-jumbo, fascinated by supernatural non-sense, but perhaps incapable of understanding christianity and empathy.And however, some historian, as you can read conclude it was a kind of “religion” too. and objectively it is comparable too, but doesn´t seem to make much of sense.

    “Thanks for the info re Himmler, although I could have lived without it.”

    In fact, that´s not fascinating, but collective insanity is enough scaring and worth some effort to explain and understand , what seems to have no explanation

    other than madness.

    Dark Fellowships The Nazi Cult-Full Length Documentary

    I guess one can guess the full extent of Hitler´evil, although I don´t quite agree to cal him catholic either, despit I may feel a bit affected by the ones that relate evil with atheism.

    In any case, one mustn’t conflate “communism” with dictatorship and
    Utopianism.

    Well, I think you should, there´s no way to escape this true relation,

  76. Hi, Maria,

    I hate it too when people relate atheism and evil. It’s so dishonest.

    I think I was conflating communism with socialism. I am democratic socialist, like Sanders (I think). Confession: I don’t know that much about communism. But I know one thing: it isn’t the same thing as fascism. A lot of people think it is, and that is just wrong.

    “In any case, one mustn’t conflate ‘communism’ with dictatorship and Utopianism. That is a very common impulse. It suggests an obscenely simple view…”

    I don’t think your views on this issue are obscenely simple. I’m sorry. Shouldn’t have said that. That wasn’t nice or fair.

  77. Those with religious delusions, assume that a non-believer, would rape the person, or steal the old person’s money, because the invisible friend they have watching them every minute of the day, is ignored, thus the non-believer is free from “their” morality? What complete balderdash! If you need the threat of “hell” to stop you perpetrating serious crime, I would suggest that you need to see a psychiatrist to sort out the problems you have with your barely controlled need to commit crime.

  78. Dan #64
    Feb 15, 2017 at 5:49 pm

    Arkrid

    Not clear about your two-tier theory.

    Well it seems to be happening. I can’t remember the words of my original analysis which is buried in here somewhere from long ago but I feared that sensitive intelligence might have to bypass Trump when he got into office and go to trusted people in Congress such as McCain and Schumer who might be able to act on it behind the scenes without sending it straight to Putin.

    http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/some-intelligence-officials-dont-trust-trump-sensitive-info

    This is being reported from multiple sources now. The “constant” communications between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence which we now know about but didn’t when I wrote the original piece only reinforce my opinion that I was correct.

  79. love for humanity

    The same promethean symbolism in the fire of Miss Liberty, isn´t it? How could that be “ugly”?

    (just wondering)

    What can be greater than Liberty?

    Oh yeah, with Trump the fire is fading away.

    http://nyer.cm/F56ztNZ

    RDF DNA stretch is a flame too, what about that?

  80. Symbolism, a beautiful thing in poetry and art and in life, can be both beautiful and dangerous (ugly). It depends on context.

    Libertarians (free market and religious fundamentalists ) point to the statue of liberty and the flame and say
    “liberty for all” while they support discrimination based on “religious freedom”, and while they remove regulations for their own personal financial gain, at the expense of the all-important environment, and at the expense of the rights of animals (humans included) to live, to exist, and to thrive.

    Everything is context. Beware of how symbols and words are being used – especially the beautiful (potent) ones. And ask yourself who is using them and what the hidden agenda, if any, there might be.

  81. Dan #90
    Feb 17, 2017 at 1:20 pm

    Libertarians (free market and religious fundamentalists )
    point to the statue of liberty and the flame and say
    “liberty for all”

    while they support discrimination based on “religious freedom”, and while they remove regulations for their own personal financial gain,
    at the expense of the all-important environment,
    and at the expense of the rights of animals (humans included) to live, to exist, and to thrive.

    There was a joke – perhaps turning ironical under the Trump administration –
    That the statue of Liberty was on an off-shore island –
    awaiting immigration clearance before being let into the USA!

  82. Confession: I don’t know that much about communism.

    Confession: I don’t know that much about communism.

    Dan

    Recurrentely (I really mean from childhood to adulthood), within scholarly subjects (and I am student of humanities) one is reminded of central issues and hear a lot about historiography, historical materialism, hegelian idealism… didn´t you? (I suppose, because perhaps there is still a common background before the split of the “two cultures”, if I can take it seriously) Even from anthropolgy subjects… we can figure out that History had to have kind of “scientific” laws of development, call it positivism or something else, and was then divided in developmental stages… and Karl Marx was not original himself and came up with communism as one early stages of humanity (it reminds the myth of eternal return of Mircea Eliade if I may compare, history is not linear), humanity has to go throughout stages (which have an appearecence of scientific), from a primitive stage of communism, to latter on return to it as if history was not linear. For outrage of historians _at least one Historian professor I had- in History simply was all resumed, to social struggle, and it would return to an idealistic stage, that would be the ultimate (one can easily figure out that history seems not to be as much different from myth, despite Marx refears to “scientific socialism”. Marx had Hegel as former master, but the ideas of the two couldn´t be more opposed, nevertheless not less silly, for the former everything is idealism (comes from “idea”, History is na nuclear defintion of a continuous development of “idea” -God?-, and for the later, everything is materialism (the materal conditions of life determine the ideas-, pick up the one you admire the most, Francis Fukuyama for instasce says he ratter prefers Hegel.

  83. Perhaps I´m being too harsh when I am referring to Marx critique of hegelianism? Perhaps Marx simply meant that “(…) philosophy depends on science, rather than politics, and marxist philosophy would want to be based upon accepted scientific concepts…. which means materialist and not idealist, which might be the only correct form” (I am trying here to quote something from Louis Althusser historiographic ideas, once he defended a marxist materialist historiography.

    (I trust the book from where I am reading or trying to quote from which is a thesis of academic degree of a professor of mine, all about Louis Althusser)

  84. Maria

    Schopenhauer, a philosopher par excellence, referred to “ministerial” Hegel’s ideas as “castles of abstraction,” and accused him of using deliberately impressive but ultimately vacuous verbiage.

    Hegel (a charlatan) viewed the Prussian state of his day as perfect and the goal of all history up until then.

    As I said above, I think Hegel did a lot of damage with his principle that Germany was the center of civilization and with his ridiculous notion that History was unfolding and would someday (necessarily) reach its goal: an ultimate and final fruition of some kind. No. That is a groundless assertion.

  85. Well, it seems that even for science “crude materialism” seems problematic as far as ideas don´t come out from “matter” without a subject´s creative mind, although it needs experimentation for desambiguation in the case of scientific knowledge.
    The theoretic Marxist “(…)Georg Lukács made up a new syntesis that integrates “subject”/”object” within a new point of view of the praxis, without denying the importance of both idealism and materialism as a new dialectic… despite still being essentially a materialist point of view with a some concession to the creativity of human the mind…”) (trying to quote the point of a History professor I had).
    Not new for science it seems?
    (Indeed, one still needs to consider a minimal “material conditions of life ” as necessary for normal mental development, if you´d deny someone´s necessary stimuli- as for a “Wolf boy” for instance- it would latter affect all mental development structurally without remedy).

  86. maria melo #95
    Feb 19, 2017 at 7:04 am

    Well, it seems that even for science “crude materialism” seems problematic as far as ideas don´t come out from “matter” without a subject´s creative mind,

    I’m not sure what “crude materialism” is!
    Brains are made from molecules of matter.
    So are enzymes and hormones.
    Neurons operate by the interactions of matter and energy –
    (which are interchangeable E = MC²).

    http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/synapse.html

    although it needs experimentation for desambiguation in the case of scientific knowledge.

    There is no evidence of any non-material biological processes.
    Evolved emotional and subjective responses, are just as “material” as any other thought processes.

  87. I’m not sure what “crude materialism” is!

    Perhaps some example would help to understand “marxist materialism”? (that was what I was writing about if I didn´t got lost): supoose people in low fertile desert soil Island main´s resource is a poor agriculture instead wealthy economy of fishing… not because they couldn´t have thought otherwise, but because of a cultural tradition they inherited. Perhaps you could not resort to your speech:

    I’m not sure what “crude materialism” is! Brains are made from
    molecules of matter. So are enzymes and hormones. Neurons operate by
    the interactions of matter and energy – (which are interchangeable E =
    MC²).

    if you were a product of a traditional society, in a crude way, “marxist terms” you were supposed to be a product of the society you belong to (I was just thinking and quoting related subjects to “marxist materialism- at leat I think I was-” well at least in the scope of social sciences (which are perhaps so unuseful as dead Latin?)

  88. maria melo #97
    Feb 19, 2017 at 9:13 am

    I had a last comment, edited it several times, but it desapeared, I didn´t delete it, so where is it?

    When due to my rubbish typing, or late additional thoughts, I edit several times, my posts disappear for moderation, but re-appear later.

  89. I do this always, if time is running out to edit and I cannot complete editing, it assumes the comment as before, this time I think I was not even in the middle of editing, the comment was on, but latter disapeared I guess.

  90. http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/synapse.html
    alan4discussion on comment #96

    Unfortunately I had to learn something about neurotransmiters after a severe depression I had about 20 years ago, I usually say that even to watch the sky is enough for a feeling of some well being sensation, as far as life like that was the hell, at least until some recovery returned.
    Thanks, for the kids´ link anyway.

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