37 comments on “OPEN DISCUSSION OCTOBER 2021”

• Oct 1, 2021 at 4:20 am

  Moderator says:

  Welcome to the October 2021 open discussion thread.

  Please continue any discussions from earlier open threads here rather than there, and you are of course welcome to start new ones here too.

  The mods

• Oct 3, 2021 at 5:25 am

  Moderator says:

  Copied across from the September thread:

  Oct 2, 2021 at 5:28 pm

  olli says:

  Sorry to Phil and Laurie for not coming back with my promised write up. Spent too much time here trying to use my lack of uni education to excuse saying something wrong that I even convinced myself that I am stupid. I wrote and deleted several times until I gave up. I also watched a Hitchens video that I missed where he says he is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church through his wife. Having battled trying to give Turkish Cypriots a voice for nearly two decades now, Brexit, Trump and Macron, I am exhausted and depressed. This is all I can muster.

• Oct 3, 2021 at 6:17 am

  Marco says:

  Hey, olli, great to see you.
  It saddens me that you feel so wobbly about posting here, though. Believe me, a university degree (especially in an unrelated subject) is no guarantor that we won’t get things wrong, and I suspect we’ve all written things before now that, with hindsight, didn’t show us at our best. I know I upset you once, but I really didn’t mean to, and I’m sorry. 
  I can honestly say I’ve always looked forward to your posts and found them interesting and often really insightful. I couldn’t care less about uni degrees – it’s people’s thoughts and ideas that matter and, even more, a sense of warmth and generosity and compassion to go alongside the thinky bits, and you’ve always delivered on all of those things. FWIW, I share your sense of exhaustion and depression at the current state of the world (and don’t have your 2 previous decades of campaigning as an excuse) – and actually, I think quite a few of us do: it comes across in the concerns and preoccupations that keep being expressed, one way or another, over and over again. I have a deep sense of something really sinister afoot, not just in any one country but (as your own list suggests) internationally too. And you’re right: it does have an exhausting effect. I owe quarecuss and Michael replies on the Book Club thread myself (and will post them soon, I promise, q & M!) but, like you, sometimes I just don’t feel to have the energy. At the same time, though, following the discussions here, and taking part in them sometimes, is a welcome relief from everything else that’s going on – there’s always some strength and comfort to be drawn from engaging with other thoughtful people. And that most definitely includes you, olli, me ol’ chum.

• Oct 3, 2021 at 4:07 pm

  Michael 100 says:

  Olli # 2:  I often share your frustration by my own lack of University level education, but I don’t think we should let that stop our quest for knowledge — which is what led us to this site in the first place.  Recently, I’ve been reading the work of George Orwell.  Today, I’m reading his essay on Charles Dickens which is contained in a collection of Orwell’s essays compiled by George Packer.  I just came across this quote:  “Dickens had had little or no formal education, but he lost nothing by missing it, and on the whole he seems to have been aware of this…” And, if I’m not mistaken, Orwell himself did not have a University degree.
   
  Like Marco, and I’m sure many other regular readers here, I hope you restart making regular contributions.

• Oct 3, 2021 at 4:14 pm

  LaurieB says:

  Olli,
  I’ll say that I miss your contributions here. To be honest, I knew nothing of Turkish Cypriots until you posted here about them. I realize I could do some reading on the situation but there’s nothing like a personal viewpoint. Also, my University diploma didn’t stop me from bungling a few comments here lately. What are you worried about?! 

• Oct 4, 2021 at 6:09 am

  phil rimmer says:

  Yay! Olli!
  I’ve been too absent too. Lets be less absent. There have been some good posts here of late.
  Real education comes from real experience and real needs. Like the others, I have learnt hugely from you on many important topics. You are always informed and thoughtful. I hope my stupid “swallowed a dictionary” mode of speech hasn’t been taken as intimidating in any way.
  (I stammered as a kid, was taught Latin and some Greek and suddenly my vocabulary exploded. I had lots of word choices and the short ones were the ones that caught me out. With long ones I focused on any difficult second and third syllables and the first syllables came out without me thinking about them, then the second and third just got pulled out like a muscle habit… like flags out of a magician’s mouth.)
  Good to see you here.
   

• Oct 14, 2021 at 2:28 pm

  declan james says:

  I’ve found one good video on The Dawkins Foundation youtube channel, where Dawky is talking about the evolution of the whale.
  However all the other content seems to be about the philosophy of science.
  Anyone know any other good educational videos where the Prof describes evolutionary biology?
  I’ve never studied science although I hope to some day so preferably something easy to follow. Thanks
  DECLAN 🙂

• Oct 14, 2021 at 3:45 pm

  Michael 100 says:

  Declan #7.  On YouTube, there is a series entitled The Genius of Charles Darwin that Prof. Dawkins did.  
  To really learn something about evolution, however, I recommend his books.  I have always found that to learn about a topic, reading is much more informative than simply watching videos.  Although there is no particular order, you might want to get The Blind Watch Maker, The Selfish Gene, The Ancestors Tale, Climbing Mount Improbable are a few very good ones.  There are also other authors such as Jerry Coyne — Why Evolution is True, and Neil Shubin Your Inner Fish, Some Assembly Required.  Both Coyne and Shubin are professors at the University of Chicago.  
  I hope you continue exploring the subject of evolution, you’ll find it very interesting.  As Charles Darwin put it “there is grandeur in this view of life…”  jump in and get your feet wet — you won’t be sorry!!
   

• Oct 16, 2021 at 6:22 am

  Michael 100 says:

  https://youtu.be/OivG32DVArY
   Declan:  I came across this lecture.  It immediately occurred to me that you might find it interesting.

• Oct 16, 2021 at 1:41 pm

  phil rimmer says:

  Declan,
   
  This is very early Dawkins. His three Royal Institution Christmas Lectures are a great introduction to evolution and the appearance of design etc..
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHoxZF3ZgTo
  You should be able to link to the other two after this.
  Neil Shubin is another important researcher and educator. (He discovered by clever sleuthing a missing link, Tiktaalik, in the evolution of land animals.)
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8ttoKGxEKc
  again with links to later episodes.

• Oct 16, 2021 at 4:57 pm

  declan james says:

  Many many thanks for all the above books n films which I’m looking forward to reading and watching
  I’m not an atheist btw but I’ve always enjoyed the sciences and also Prof Dawkins’ stuff. Cheerz
  DECLAN xxx 🙂

• Oct 16, 2021 at 7:10 pm

  Michael 100 says:

  “I’m not an atheist”
  Declan #11:  I don’t think most of us see that a problem.  Your interest in science is what I see as exciting.  If the photo beside your name is any indication of your age, I hope you pursue as much education as possible.  There are so many questions left to be answered, and when they’re answered, new ones will occur.  It’s like Professor Cobb said at the end of his lecture, the best words a scientist can utter are “we don’t know.”  Thats why research grants were invented.  In the mean time, keep chiming in with your discoveries and questions.  

• Oct 16, 2021 at 9:29 pm

  Michael 100 says:

  Declan, at the risk of not knowing when to stop, may I suggest one more series of videos that you may find useful.  In these 7 segments, Professor Dawkins and George Coyne, S.J. (Not to be confused with Jerry Coyne) engage in a conversation about evolution.  At the time, Coyne had recently retired as head of the Vatican Observatory.  Here is the link to the first one, and once there, the others links will follow.  https://youtu.be/po0ZMfkSNxc

• Oct 17, 2021 at 5:42 pm

  declan james says:

  Michael100
  Thanks!😉
  I’ve seen the Fr George interview before, but thanks for reminding me as I need to listen to it again; one of Prof Dawkins’ most important screen discussions. 
  Thanks one and all for the encouragement, and I’ll keep you all posted. Cheerz
  DECLAN🙂

• Oct 21, 2021 at 11:20 am

  olli says:

  Hi Laurie
   
  I seemed to have cleared a little of my constipation. My fear of hitting that post button when that empty feeling in my stomach sets in and says, “what’s the point”. Not fully clear and fear it will back up again but a little anger helps me push. 
  when reading about the Cyprus issue, or the Cyprob as it’s become known, make sure you go further back than the 1974 starting point the Greek Cypriot (GC) propaganda does. Not hundreds of years like the argument always comes to but 1960 when the island was first made a republic and owned by its people  And then 1963 a period known to Turkish Cypriots (TC)  as Bloody Christmas (Kanli Noel) where the plans of destroying the republic was put into action by the GCs along with Greece. The systematic murder of TCs already accounted for in the discovered plans called the Akritas Plan played down by the GCs and the international community. Not too much to ask for as this is the period my life was threatened and we were forced to leave the island. All because the GCs Orthodox Church and leader wanted union with Greece. This is known as ENOSIS and was/is the continuation of the Megali idea which is hundreds of years old. The Greek Orthodox Church has a huge hand in this and whatever you read please keep them in mind in the background knowing they are fully in the front  
   
  I started this journey wanting to inform my half English children a little of my background and seem to have come full circle, though I think the circle is not yet complete, to a hero atheist who has lied his way to endorsing the hate of anything Turkish throughout the world. That man is Christopher Hitchens who I mentioned in my last post. Now I watch his videos and see the intent in which he singles out Islam and the reason why. 
  i felt bad that You might upset you Micheal in saying that I don’t want to read those books. At first it was a reaction of “where have they gotten us?” Educating people was to be the saviour of our planet against many things but the educated ARE in charge and…”where has it got us?”  All that work can go into the here and now. Into the reality that is today.  That, I now realise was my reason to reject the rebuilding of the Notra Dame Marco. If I remember right, you asked how we could deprive future children the right to experience what you had.  I ask again..”where has it got us?”  Let it burn. Let our future be a new experience not based on lies and “poetic” history. Captain Kirk has finally gone into space but let Spok keep his feet firmly on the ground. 
  I feel a little relief but think I might have created a bit of an aroma. No disrespect to anyone and the encouragement you guys gave is very much appreciated but the empty feeling still remains. I don’t know whether to eat again and risk more constipation or drink plenty of water losing more weight than I can afford. 
   

• Oct 21, 2021 at 1:12 pm

  LaurieB says:

  olli,

  when reading about the Cyprus issue, or the Cyprob as it’s become known, make sure you go further back than the 1974 starting point the Greek Cypriot (GC) propaganda does.

  Don’t worry. I’m very used to that. There’s a certain other country on the Mediterranean that uses the same tactic. Before 1947 nothing existed where the state of Israel currently does. 

   a hero atheist who has lied his way to endorsing the hate of anything Turkish throughout the world. That man is Christopher Hitchens who I mentioned in my last post. Now I watch his videos and see the intent in which he singles out Islam and the reason why. 

  Can I have more on this? Is it because he had a connection with Greece? 

• Oct 21, 2021 at 1:39 pm

  Marco says:

  Oh goodness, I’d forgotten all about our Notre Dame disagreement, Olli! Of course you haven’t created an aroma, and nor do you need to worry about offending any of us by disagreeing with us – I’m sure I speak for Michael and everyone else there too. Disagreement can be good – it challenges us to think about things again, view them from another angle. We might still stand by our original views at the end of that process, or we might have refined them a little. Either way, there’s no harm done whatsoever, and quite possibly some good. Isn’t discussion what we’re all here for, and wouldn’t discussion quickly grow dull if we all saw everything in exactly the same way? 
   
  Lots of us have been struggling recently, Olli; I think it’s actually a perfectly rational response to a whole combination of really grim situations: political, medical, environmental, economic, human rights … Several of us have written about feeling that way. Yet when you write that we should let Notre Dame burn because “where has it got us?”, I must admit that worries me, because it sounds to me like an expression of an even deeper, inner bleakness. The point I’m making isn’t specifically about Notre Dame here: the world is where it is (and it’s not a good place right now), and yes, in a sense that’s the result of every single thing that has gone before. Where has anything got us but here? But that’s not a reason to indiscriminately discard everything from our past. Some things in our history have moved us in better directions, others in worse ones. Surely we need more of the things that have moved us in better directions, not less? We’ll all have our own ideas about what those things are, but for me – and I think most of us, actually – the creation of beauty, for whatever purpose, is definitely one of them, something that provides joy and solace. Even now, even on my own bleaker days, beauty provides relief, be that in the form of landscapes or art or architecture or music or literature or anything else. It may not change the world, but it can help us to bear it. I don’t mean “bear it” in the sense of “tolerate it” or “be complacent about it”: but we all need to keep our strength and our spirits up if we are to be able to do our bit to fight back, and for many of us cultural heritage plays a significant part in our coping mechanisms. It’s perfectly fine if it doesn’t do it for you, but in that case I genuinely hope you have other things that do: you’re sounding very down, my friend.  

• Oct 21, 2021 at 2:29 pm

  olli says:

  Laurie
  Here it is. The Greek narrative starting from 1974 and describes my a peaceful “Cypriot” nation with discourse started by a “brief” Greek coup and the a “decisive” “”invasion”” by the Turkish army. No mention of the hardships faced by TCs in enclaves deprived of essentials up to that point from 1963. No mention of my mum being strip searched by GC soldiers or her sister nearly firing of limes disease in one of those camps but a happy Cypriot nation  help apart by those nasty Turks that came to save them under the guarantee of the Cyprus constitution. Much more besides Laurie but take a look  
   
  https://youtu.be/SGSUkHW6UT0

• Oct 21, 2021 at 3:03 pm

  olli says:

  Marco
  In trying to understand, get into the minds of, Brexiteers and Trump voters and covid deniers, I have had to play with perception and the “realities” that all of us have imagined or maybe have had forced on us by experience but mainly through education. I can now imagine a whole new perception not walled in by what we have learned and wish for a new start….but understand the impracticality and yes, it has brought me to a new low. Everywhere I turn to explain the TC situation ignores my reality and talks over our heads and talks about how Turkey is performing. Fingers in ears la la la la la! Only real reaction to our wanting a voice is, “you need to sort it out locally”.  Go complain to the Greek only government that took your rights in the first place. The UN and the EU hide behind the “suspension of the aquis” in the north. We disappear as soon as we enter the north appear only once in the south or Turkey. It is not a reality I can take. 
   
  But, there is something that I am enjoying at the moment on many levels. Her name is Jingle and is a  Chihuahua, toy poodle mix. I will write about her when in a better mood I think. 

• Oct 21, 2021 at 3:13 pm

  Marco says:

  How lovely, Olli. Even I have to admit that a dog is a better coping mechanism than a Notre Dame! 😉 

• Oct 21, 2021 at 4:04 pm

  Michael 100 says:

  “Of course you haven’t created an aroma, and nor do you need to worry about offending any of us by disagreeing with us – I’m sure I speak for Michael and everyone else there too. Disagreement can be good – it challenges us to think about things again, view them from another angle.”
  Well said Marco, I agree 100% !  And I can’t think of a better way to express it.

• Oct 21, 2021 at 6:45 pm

  olli says:

  Thank you Micheal.  I am more than happy no one is offended. My need is to comment and I seem to do it best in the early hours of the morning in that twilight zone between being asleep and awake. I have woken up nearly every morning explaining to you all in a way I can’t on paper. I tried to write it all down but after a few back spaces and edits, it all disappears. 
  I just can’t buy into this system any more. I feel guilty that I have raised two sons and given them to the pressures of a system I no longer believe in. I might have read more into the series Squid Game on Netflix than intended but it seems to reinforce my thoughts at the moment. We blame the fat cats and their psychopathic managers but we are all to blame. We buy into mortgages and gamble with our lives in jobs not always suited to us and complete the game killing anything that gets us to that major prize. The players in the series are given the option to leave the game but must do on a majority vote. It relies on the majority. No one can go it alone either way. The game only needs the majority to carry on. It’s not up to the fat cats. They are part of the system and so the bloodshed continues. I feel I can learn much more from this short series than I can read anywhere at my age. I am not trying to discourage even if I thought I were important enough to do so but I just feel years of reading, to catch up that is, would end in a Spike Milligan type eureka moment that would also be the moment of my death. 

• Oct 24, 2021 at 8:11 am

  phil rimmer says:

  Mods, chaps
  I know the Film Club thread attracted little interest here, sadly, (though I still intend to post there.)
  I was though wondering if an Anthropogenic Climate Change thread could be another always open thread like the Book Club? It is a topic and accumulating body of knowledge that should impact almost every day to day decision we now take, every vote we cast, every twit we tweet.
  There is still much misinformation and misunderstanding out there, incidental and fomented, and it needs countering with corroborated facts and plans making. Godless morality flows from immediate needs and our immediate interdependency, a need for mutualism, and this site’s dedication to reason and science makes it an almost perfect platform to tackle ACC.
  I don’t want another failure like Film Club, but is this a big enough, interesting enough topic for a standalone ever accumulating thread?
  Any thoughts?

• Oct 24, 2021 at 2:37 pm

  olli says:

  Phil 
   
  From the Tim Minchin thread. 
  I am so torn on the EU. As a Brit, I wanted to stay in but as a Turkish Cypriot, they are pulling all the tricks to take over the Cyprus issue from the UN and politicising it through their members who happen to include Greece and the Greek Cypriots. The EU are endorsing Saudi Arabia and Egypt along with Israel to get the gas from these countries to the ever hungry EU. The only country resisting Americas charms was Germany and hope they will continue after Angela. The “Cyprus” president is asking the EU to rethink their friendly approach to Turkey on a daily basis. France is sabre rattling in the same direction. We know the close links between Israel and America. Now Turkey is building its own drones and demand is high in other countries I have heard. I don’t know who is doing what any more and which of these elite need targeting. The leaked report by Greenpeace on countries bullying the scientists adds to my confusion so the system that allows these things to happen gets it in the neck from me. Borris was reported as shouting “so let the bastards die” because, I believe and not what the papers tried to insinuate, that constituent leaders where on his back about the revolt against vaccines. Soon after the rules were relaxed. So bottom m up approach? 

• Oct 24, 2021 at 7:51 pm

  aldous says:

  Hello Olli,
  If you’ve got a Cyprus passport, you’ll still be a European citizen. These things are complicated but there are lots of British citizens who have a second passport. 

  Despite joining the EU as a de facto divided island, the whole of Cyprus is EU territory. Turkish Cypriots who have, or are eligible for, EU travel documents are EU citizens.
  Cyprus | European Union (europa.eu)

  I expect you know all about that but it’s worth mentioning.

• Oct 25, 2021 at 8:33 am

  olli says:

  Hi aldous
  Many reasons why not. 
  In 1960 I was born one of the first true “Cypriot” (in inverted commas as that term only lasted for three years) until that title was stripped from me by force. I don’t see why I have to reapply to a hostile government for membership given the political issues. Quite a few people have applied and have been waiting for years whilst every obstacle has been put in their way. I will neither cross over to the south or fly into their airport as a matter of principle, if nothing else, regardless of how difficult they, and the international community, make it for me too fly to the place I was born by not recognising my alternative state or my struggle. Recently, due to a “right wing” government being voted in even more criteria have been put in place that says I have to renounce my state and capitulate the GC conditions (who are systematically erasing me and mine from history throughout their schools) in order to even qualify to apply all the time selling passports to Russians and Chinese millionaires for tax evasion and money laundering (exposed by the Guardian newspaper!). The EU have gotten around their own rules of not accepting countries that are divided by conflict by this “suspension of the aquis” and closing the entire island and “its people” as EU territory without my (read TC people)  permission or vote even though the Annan plan that both sides voted on, was rejected by the GCs and was promised that EU accession  would not happen if either side voted no. We were also promised that some of the embargoes would be lifted from the TC side in any case only to be told that the new member will f the EU (yes you guessed it. The “RoC”) vetoed that promise. 

• Oct 25, 2021 at 9:17 am

  olli says:

  Here is an article that doesn’t really explained n the situation properly but shows one of the difficulties faced and that maybe we are being listened to in some circles. 
  https://podium.bulletin.com/268007575255131

• Oct 25, 2021 at 9:28 am

  olli says:

  Sorry for all the typos. So eager to tell our story and worried about losing the post. 
  To those who are annoyed at my spelling of Olli and not Ollie. I was dubbed Olli by a plumber when I was 14 but I am not an Oliver so went through a lot of teenage anxiety on how to spell my version and came to the conclusion it had to be Olli. 

• Oct 26, 2021 at 7:49 am

  aldous says:

  Hello Olli,
  I sympathize with you about disappearing posts. In my last vanished post, I was thinking about the parallels between Cyprus and Ireland. The fact that the whole island was in the EU was fundamental to keeping the peace under the Good Friday Agreement. Do you foresee reconciliation between the two communities in Cyprus with the prospect of reunion?

• Oct 26, 2021 at 8:07 pm

  olli says:

  aldous
  I believe the days of reunification are over. The “RoC” president Anastiades keeps repeating his dedication to Hellenism and flying the Greek flag along side the token Cypriot flag which serves as the child catchers lure and for effect. I remember being told by the FCO in the UK that the discovery of hydro carbons would solve the problem. It has made it worse and expanded the problem to other countries who couldn’t care less before. The TCs have had enough of sitting at the negotiation table as second class citizens while the GCs manoeuvre into stronger and stronger positions. The TRNC government are now refusing to sit at that table unless a two state solution is discussed and are not interested in federal system any more. 
  The link below is from an author who is/was a staunch unificationist but things can only be pushed so far. 
  https://cyprus-mail.com/2021/09/12/one-more-nail-in-the-coffin-of-a-bicommunal-cyprus/

• Oct 28, 2021 at 10:25 am

  olli says:

  Marco
   
  As promised. I hope it has enough science, reason and love to lift spirits for anyone reading. 
   
   
  Throughout lockdown, I have wanted to do my bit to help others other than stand on my doorstep clapping for the NHS workers on the front line. Sitting watching half the world go mad and the other half collecting and delivering food and supplies to those in need, I felt a little better, as one who is high risk, that I did not need help in that way so not a burden. So, when a couple of photos popped up on the family WhatsApp with a message asking if we knew anyone that could give a home to a little dog I thought it might be the least I could do for another life. 
   
  Little Jingle did not have a horrible life before. Although we say we rescued her it is not as dramatic as it sounds. My cousins wife’s best friend (in their fifties!) had split up with her partner and had to move back in with her mum, along with Jingle, who didn’t want a dog in her house. Jingle stayed for a while but then had to go stay with Rosie’s brother who had a large dog and two children, four and six year old, of his own. The dogs got on fine and we were told rode around on the other dogs back. 
   
  After a couple of long conversations between my wife and Rosie, we decided to take Jingle and see how things went and both parties were happy although I was determined I would see it through. The day came and Rosie arrived with Jingle and all her paraphernalia. Rosie is about five feet tall but her voice is twice that and bubbly. Jingle is tiny and just wanted to play. Rosie was reassured by my cousins wife that we would spoil Jingle and she seemed happy when she saw us that it might be true. Jingle made herself at home and cuddled up to my wife. Both the dog and Rosie were not yet sure about me but I knew there was a story to unfold yet. 
   
  There were no tears when Rosie left. She felt sure her little Jingle had found a good home and we said she could visit to see for herself when she wanted. I found an old tennis ball and Jingle started to trust me too. We have never had a dog before only cats so this fetch thing was keeping me amused as well. Straight away I could see she was used to playing ball and brought it back and placed it between my feet. Not one side or the other but it had to be between. I sat on the floor to throw it but she insisted I stood and kicked it. I imagined this was the routine with the two children she lived with for a while and felt a little sadness that my kicking the ball didn’t come with the same giggles and excitement. This was just the first day and I wanted to understand more about this little girl. 
   
  That night she came up with us to bed and went into her cage before we even asked. All slept well. The next morning my wife woke up and let her out. She was all over us licking and loving. The cage thing didn’t last too long because when one night she settled on our bed before going in, she gave a big sigh and had us. Breakfast  over and back to play. The tennis ball was too big for her really so we went up the road and bought her a couple of miniature ones. She started to pull the fluff off those so we ordered her bald ones but I will get to those later. 
   
  She hadn’t been spayed yet but Rosie told us she was due to be done after the next time she was on heat so it was down to us now. Jingle was just over a year old. A couple of weeks in and she started her cycle and humping my wife’s arm. This became too much so I gave her my neck pillow which she instantly claimed and would not let us near. She became on and off aggressive spending nights downstairs guarding her pillow until the heat wore off for a few hours and she would come upstairs. She then got possessive with our bed so using the sheets, I got her off and back in her cage reluctantly. We couldn’t wait for this to end. It finally did but then she went into a phantom pregnancy. She became very possessive of a little giraffe toy we named Ralphie. It was fascinating and sad how she went between wanting to play with it and mother it. Before this episode, we threw it and she ran after it, picked it up, thrashed it about a bit and brought it back to throw again. Now she would chase it but pick it up carefully from its neck and reluctantly surrender it to us to throw with a look of pain in her eyes. The run up was just as enthusiastic as before but no killer bite. 
   
  I was very careful not to project my own emotions onto the dog. My wife is quite the opposite so it keeps me on my toes but when the new balls arrived it reinforced my understanding of what was going through this little dogs head. Six little bald yellow plastic balls that I unpacked and threw in the air as we were both excited. She sniffed each one and then collected them and put them in her day bed in the lounge and got possessive of that area really turning fierce if approached so we let her be. She would bring one out to play with when she felt right but kept returning to her pack to check often throughout playtime. We once left the one out in the garden and when she finished eating and returned to check and realised one was missing began frantically looking around for her sixth puppy. She can either count or recognise a group of six that is for sure. 
   
  I absolutely loved trying to figure this little dog out and was lucky to be in contact with her previous owner to ask questions about my suspicions. She definitely started off as a woman’s dog barking at men but once she started to trust me she gave other men a chance at least but easy does it. I was waiting with her outside our local Waitrose one day when an elderly woman with shopping bags came to say hello and Jingle went ballistic. That confused me for a while but a week or so later when a similar looking woman (nearly as wide as tall) came close and the same thing happened, I realised it could be memories of Rosie’s mum shooing the dog away slipper in hand as most Turkish Cypriot mothers do. I did get confirmation from Rosie that her mum did that. The barking at men, even me when I get the pole out for the loft hatch, is the same with Rosie’s brother using the same threatening behaviour but with a stick that I think might be related to her urinating in the house whilst playing with the children. She has done that only a couple of times with us and when told off she goes into submissive mode on her back and looks really sorry for herself. The thing that has taken the longest for us to reassure her about are some photos we have under our television. The first time we threw the ball and it knocked them over, she went into a real panic and thought she was going to be punished hard. It broke our hearts. Lots of cuddles and reassurance later we were back to playing but any time the ball heads in that direction she puts the breaks on and heads in the other direction. Other objects being knocked over make no difference but the photos are a problem. Rosie keeps forgetting to ask her brother if there was an incident with the kids and photos while Jingle was staying there but I suspect she is either embarrassed to ask if her brother hit the dog or just doesn’t want to know. I won’t push it any more. Jingle still worries when the photos are knocked over but not taking it so much that it is her fault. 
   
  It has been a joy to have this little dog in our lives and fascinating to watch her progress through her fears. I have even talked to her through pointing with my eyes. I would put my hand on the floor so she could put the ball straight in but she would put it on the floor instead. I kept pointing to the ball with my eyes and then my hand. Only after a couple of times she caught on and now she understands. But she turned the table on me one day. Our usual routine is she has a poo in the garden and we immediately pick it up with a poo bag. I was playing ball with her one day when she disappeared behind a bush in our small garden and reappeared ten seconds later without the ball. She sometimes does this after a wee so I used my eyes to tell her to get the ball. She looked at me and then behind the bush. I repeated the order and she did the same. Half way through the third time I realised she was talking to me not me to her. I thought ten seconds wasn’t enough for her to do a poo but she had and she was telling me to get a poo bag. What a clever little thing. After that it gave me the confidence to let her off the lead at the park. She would sniff at her lead on her harness and look at me. That and knowing she is obsessed with her ball, she runs her little legs off chasing through grass sometimes too long for her. Yes it can get a little annoying when she gives us the sad little doggy eyes to play ball yet again but a small price to play for all the pleasure and fascination for knowing her. 

• Oct 28, 2021 at 4:03 pm

  Moderator says:

  Phil

  I was though wondering if an Anthropogenic Climate Change thread could be another always open thread like the Book Club? It is a topic and accumulating body of knowledge that should impact almost every day to day decision we now take, every vote we cast, every twit we tweet.

  That’s an excellent idea, Phil. Give us a day or two and we’ll set it up.

• Oct 29, 2021 at 7:45 am

  Moderator says:

  New thread dedicated to all things related to anthropogenic climate change now pinned to the home page.

  And there are links to it from the Open Discussion and Book Club threads too.

  So, as of now, may we ask you not to post about climate-related issues in either the Open Discussion or the Book Club, please. The idea is to keep everything to do with climate together in one place so that it’s easy to find.

  https://richarddawkins.net/2021/10/the-climate-crisis/

• Oct 29, 2021 at 11:05 am

  Marco says:

  Olli #31
  That’s just lovely, Olli. Dogs are quite simply a joy. So eager to be happy, so eager to make us happy, so innocent and trusting, somehow. So totally “in the moment”, even if that’s not a phrase I like very much. Honestly: therapy on four paws. I’ve always been a huge fan. And how lucky little Jingle is to have landed in a family that is so interested in her, makes so much time for her and clearly absolutely adores her. You’re going to have such happy times together. It’s clear from your post that you’re already building an incredible bond with her. Which is exactly as it should be. Will look forward to updates from time to time! 

• Oct 30, 2021 at 5:34 am

  olli says:

  Thanks Marco. 
  Not my favourite phrase either and now I know she came with psychological issues and memories even more meaningless. 

• Nov 1, 2021 at 5:36 am

  Moderator says:

  Moderator note

  The new November open discussion thread will be along in a couple of days. In the meantime, please feel free to go on posting here.

  Thanks!

   

• Nov 5, 2021 at 2:02 pm

  Moderator says:

  This thread is now closed.

  Please feel free to continue the discussions or start new ones on the November 2021 open thread, which can be found at:

  https://richarddawkins.net/2021/11/open-discussion-november-2021/